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4:10 PM
Jon Clements has unfrozen this room.
 
 
1 hour later…
5:30 PM
This room was placed in timeout for 30 minutes; 30 minutes until meeting
 
5:56 PM
room mode changed to Public: anyone may enter and talk
Hello everyone, and welcome to SOCVR's 8th room meeting. We'll start with some intro messages then get right into the topics. As a reminder, you can find them here.
General reminder: please be nice to each other. Please keep the conversation on topic, and the no one-box rule applies here. Please use stars sparingly. RO's will clear stars after topics end.
The room will be in timeout for 1 minute at the start of each topic. Use this time to write up your long messages. Once the room has nothing left to add to the conversation, we'll move on to the next topic. The RO's will write up a proper conclusion to the room information repo at this time.
ROs and Moderators, please open up an incognito window to view the current timeout.
We have 6 topics to work through. We'll be discussing them in highest-voted/commented order, and we'll try to get through as many as we can in an hour. Max of 10 minutes per topic. Topics we don't get to will be at the next meeting if still applicable.
> We have always shied away from voting as a general policy (e.g. "We are not a voting ring"). But we do have an odd grey area: 20k deletion. Make a rule forbidding nominating a question for deletion that is not at -3, or leave it be?
 
I didn't keep track how often I encounter these cases
 
leave it be,cv-pls request, del-pls is not not "now",they mean review when you have time
 
There are a few
 
It happens from time to time. Not a lot though.
 
which means that maybe someone will see it later..
I rather have a general rule to 20K delete only special stuff... really trouble some stuff, abusive/spam, generating abusive spam content
 
6:02 PM
The post will become delete-able in 48 hours (unless it gets reopened) so I'm not to concerned.
 
The point is: I expect to be able to moderate when requested. Not that I implicitly need to down vote as well.
 
Just wanted to make sure we have a defined policy. Some have implied it was vote solicitation
 
@PetterFriberg We have flags to nuke that
 
that ^
 
@NathanOliver meeh I mean for example a post that is generating a lot of off-topic comments and OP is getting agitated
 
6:04 PM
I probably see (while I'm actively watching chat) about one or two a week (userscript indicates when the request is invalid).
 
I don't mind having a policy in place where the post has to be delete-able in order to post a del-pls. Makes it nice and simple.
 
^ agree with NO
 
I agree with the request - the vast majority of 20k requests are not exigent, just someone who really doesn't see any value in a given question
 
How many members of RO's have the 20k ability?
 
@Makyen Yeah, it is not immense high
 
6:05 PM
most 20k del-pls requests I see are questions that were closed within the last hour
and they're almost all from one user
 
@JonClements 3 or 4 .... active that is
 
There aren't many ROs who aren't 20k. Maybe Tiny and a couple of inactive
 
@Machavity kyll isn't
 
@gunr2171 get to 20K will you ...
 
@Machavity kyll
 
6:06 PM
@JonClements 2 active, 6 total
 
@Adriaan who? /cc @ColdFire
 
Perhaps it can be made clear that while deletions should be considered, unless there's a good reason, it doesn't have to be now...
 
@JonClements there's a few more 20k users around who're not ROs btb
 
@rene Paul*
 
ah
 
6:07 PM
and not every single duplicate needs to be wiped out
 
@JonClements I like that
 
I would be more on Jon's line, reasonable requests for quick deletion is more important than if it has -2 or -3
 
we only have 1 minute left
 
okay, my last thoughts then
 
Just FYI: A requested (and implemented) feature for an upcoming version the CV-request generator is to have the ability to register to send a del-pls in 2 days. The current implementation gives you the option of being reminded 2 days later (opens a tab for you with the question) (default) or to automatically send the del-pls (optional).
 
6:10 PM
if there's something really bad and it has to go, then get it gone - otherwise, don't sweat the small stuff, it'll end up gone eventually - and if no one's seeing it - who cares?
 
@Makyen awesome feature
 
@JonClements basically the same as our cv-pls rule
> [cv-pls] should not be a habit for users. Don't make it an instinct to fast-track every eligible post to the front of the closure system
just subbsitute del-pls
 
Ok, I think what @JonClements susggests amended with that from @PetterFriberg should make the rule. I'm on it ...
 
sounds good. moving on
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> Do we all agree that the cv queue is broke?, if so should we push as a room to try and fix the problem?
 
yeah my last desperate attempt...
 
6:13 PM
What should we push and how?
 
IMHO meta is the place to get the queue fixed. If you want to make the room aware of a meta post you have about getting the queue fixed I don't have a problem with one boxing it.
 
To address the topic: No. There have been numerous 100-score questions on meta asking for this. This doesn't seem the best way to spend our time as a room
 
@NathanOliver What? That wasn't in the script!
 
Do we need to push this? We pushed hard on the "moar CVs" meta and got nowhere
 
i doubt this is going to help
 
6:14 PM
@rene Sorry, had to go off script there
 
@TylerH Shog has specifically stated in the past that they tried this on Softwareengineering.SE and the results were unsatisfactory
 
Yes I really think this has to be address by SE, but I have no clue anymore what we can do.
 
@Magisch they tried lower CV requirements?
 
If a meta post is not the way (which I agree with) then what is the fix?
 
Snowball's chance in hell before that ever happens
@rene There isn't.
 
6:15 PM
@rene bribe the mods to bribe the devs?
 
So - to make it clear - it's not to increase the number of votes required per day, but to reduce the amount of votes required to action it?
 
or get more MOAR!!!!!! people in
all of the above
 
@JonClements either way would help
 
@JonClements To make it clear cv votes are aging away the system is broke, what do we do?
 
@JonClements I'm not sure we have an actual suggestion right now. Just that it is broken and somehow needs to be fixed
 
6:16 PM
ping mods?
 
This topic doesn't seem well-thought-out, at least for the purposes of a room meeting
 
^^agreed
 
it's a topic of discussion that really merits weeks of discussion
 
So really, no there is nothing as a room we can do about it. Move on?
 
Yeah, let put this in a separate room for some thoughts and suggestions
 
6:17 PM
@PetterFriberg Aging CVs is good, if the question's been edited, but if there's been no edit by the OP, then the CV is near certainly still valid.
 
@NathanOliver it's something I will pursue with the PTB
 
@rene preferably with thinking hats and associated thinking-beers.
 
on till there is some viable suggestion as to a solution not much can be done about it.
 
@JonClements Cool. Thanks
 
@JonClements acronym alert
 
6:18 PM
@Adriaan I'll join you near the fridge ...
 
@NathanOliver how much can you trust reviewers though (outside the good ones we know here)
 
@JonClements Not sure. Audits should hopefully purge out the bad ones
 
on the other hand, throw away all their work,who likes to review after that?
but yeah let's move
 
We are going to move onto the next topic
 
I like this ranting :D
 
6:19 PM
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> Bad review audits can be handled by normal users (as in, downvote & VtC or reopen an audit question, so that it ceases to be an audit?). Do we want the room to be open for such requests and if yes, what would the rules be to govern those requests.
 
I think fixing those audits don't need a voting mob, right?
 
What happened to clearing stars after each topic?
 
It should only take a single user to fix it.
 
maybe if you are less then 3K you could ask for help
 
I don't know of anything a group can do that can't be done by a single user.
 
6:21 PM
@Adriaan Rha
 
@Makyen That is mod?
 
Okay - can I put on my mod hat and speak as that for a few moments?
 
sure
 
@PetterFriberg It only takes 1 up-/down-vote.
 
@JonClements Sure
 
6:21 PM
Requesting help should only be necessary if you are out of votes, but then you risk room mobbing
 
@Adriaan I keep kind of track of them for the write up
 
@Nathan thanks - how long do I have...
 
@JonClements Nathan can perhaps freeze the room temporarily for you
 
@JonClements We have 8 minutes for this topic
 
lets wait for 7
 
6:23 PM
Okay - brilliant then, I'll start
 
We can also circle bacck at the end if you want
 
mods don't have any more control over audits than any other user does
we just have a bit more sway with pushing the post out of queues
I'm completely on side with a lot of mods that audits shouldn't be so naive
and you're all a meta active crowd
you know if someone's got an unfair audit that's pushed 'em over the line that's lead to a ban or otherwise
we'll respond and do what we can
hand picked audits is just not practical
 
conclusion? (sorry Jon)
 
that being said, because this room has so much experience of working the queues and how awkward it can be sometimes, I do like the idea that you guys actually provide advice
 
6:27 PM
So let's write some guidance on the site and let people deal with it on an individual level?
 
So, no, we don't need to do anything in the room. If a bad audit leads to a ban take it to meta?
 
is there a FAQ in meta for that already?
 
@TylerH I don't think so
we could write one
I guess the star means I'm bait?
 
^ I like that. Get it proposed to the FAQ
 
6:29 PM
@NathanOliver that's not what I'm saying... if a ban comes of it - do so... but this room could provide advice
 
@JonClements Sure we can advise but do we need to have requests to get the audit removed by countering the audit signal?
1 minute left
 
@NathanOliver I need to look at that... but no - we can get the audit signal removed if known we should do that without the appearance of community voting one way or t'other
 
OK
Can we move on?
 
Is writing the FAQ the conclusion of this topic?
 
Yeah and we direct to that If someone ask
 
6:31 PM
That and adding something to ours as well?
 
OK, yeah, both
Move on
 
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> Now and then situations pop-up where an auto-comment doesn't result in the predicted outcome but instead cause an opposite effect. Is this something we can incorporate in our stock auto-comments, maybe with having extension points or is the shrug it off, move on attitude enough? Do you use a common tactic to tailor those already?
 
I'm not against a 'tailor' option or checkbox before posting (I don't even use auto comments), but if someone responds rudely to an auto comment, that's gonna be on them, not the auto comment.
 
If there's an edge case in an auto-comment, I think it depends on the case
 
Does this also pertain to users posting 2 (or more) auto comments, instead of stringing them in one comment? IMO it feels like bullying to drop more than one comment
 
6:33 PM
@NathanOliver not sure what that means... is this for the room's auto-comment or auto-comment's left by review?
 
@JonClements custom user script that many in the SOCVR room use under questions
it lets them pick from 4 or 5 canned responses based on the problems in the question
 
@JonClements Its the auto comments that we use to put on closeable post. Like provide a mcve or how to use a debugger
 
@Adriaan yeah, I always (at least I try to) leave it at one
 
@Adriaan There's already a rule from a previous room meeting that we shouldn't pile on (aka 2 or more users jumping on a single post). If that rule isn't being abided by, that's a separate problem
 
@rene there are two users from the top of my head who drop more than one comment, instead of posting them in one
 
6:35 PM
Ah I see you meant one user posting two
not two separate users posting one each
 
@TylerH yes. So instead of copying the text of one, and then posting that inside the next, they leave two auto comments
 
I think the auto comments themselves could probably be modified to sound more polite
 
@Adriaan that can be a bit intimidating ...
@TylerH how?
 
I think leaving constructive comments is great though
 
6:37 PM
@rene I know we're against fluff at SO, but for an auto comment that might be the first thing (and a negative thing) a user sees on the site from another user, some politeness like "Hi, %username%, Welcome to Stack Overflow. <beginautocomment>" might help
 
piling on not so much
 
@TylerH ^ That is important if user does not listen they will not obey, the best way to get user to listen is to be very nice.
 
IMO, if an auto comment doesn't so what you want either walk away or provide a custom tailored comment.
 
that small change of addressing a user by their name will often 'de-militarize' a user who is feeling defensive or who otherwise might feel defensive
 
was wondering why I was getting so many duplicate comment stuff in the dashboard :)
 
6:38 PM
@NathanOliver Agreed on that front - if user responds rudely, flag it
 
1 minute left
 
Maybe we can ask on writers.se how to improve the auto comments?
 
@rene If you're a glutton for punishment
 
@TylerH The auto-comment script has the ability to include the OP's username in the comment (e.g. [OP]).
 
I have over 1k rep on ELU, just ask me
@Makyen that's good, maybe it should be standard and not optional
 
6:39 PM
lets make a task force that TylerH leads that check that every auto-comments is as polite as it can be
 
Honestly, the auto-comments are one of the most helpful things we do. I've had some really good results using them, especially since I don't have to keep typing the same things over and over
 
@PetterFriberg pay me in unicorns
 
Times out, Conclusion?
 
@NathanOliver no action needed right now IMO. Conclusion - leave the user if they respond negatively or don't respond
if they respond positively, work with them at your own desire
 
6:41 PM
sounds good to me
 
@TylerH and share the re-work?
 
This room was placed in timeout for 1 minute; next topic
> So we already have a general rule about not pinging mods, but we probably should expand that somewhat, since there are some grey areas that people get confused about.
> Pinging mods engaged in general conversation is acceptable
> Pinging mods for anything that could be handled with a flag is not acceptable
> Ask the room about how to handle non-flag moderation problems
 
^ (those are proposals, I forgot to mention that in the script)
 
I agree with the proposals
 
looks good to me
 
6:42 PM
So what's the big issue here?
 
Looks pretty acceptable to me
 
That we ping you @JonClements
 
@Undo what do you feel about my ping in charcoal the other day was it ok?
 
@ing a moderator for discussion is fine, you're just addressing them. @ing a moderator to fix your problem is not fine - that's what flags are for
 
@JonClements We don't want to waste your time or draw you away from your job
 
6:43 PM
@JonClements Trying to stop you guys from getting pings to do some mod action
 
The two exceptions, btw, are rude usernames without any posts, and locked-unflagable questions that need an edit
 
Okay... that's just common sense though, isn't it?
 
(and now we all ping moderators trying to tell them why we shouldn't ping moderators)
 
@JonClements hahahahahaaaha
 
@JonClements you'd think, but it's good to have the rules written out
 
6:44 PM
@JonClements You would think so but it does allued some people
 
so when someone says "yeah but this is a special case" or "just this once" we can say "nope, it's in the rules"
 
If there is anything I've learned from being an SOCVR RO, it's that someone is going to say "well it's not written in the FAQ, so that's not a rule"
 
(we have now filled Jon's ping quota)
 
@TylerH that is it, good point
 
I do sleep occasionally, but I'll attend to those
 
6:44 PM
@Machavity You can still mod-flag on some random post and describe what you want.
 
@Makyen Not if they have none
 
otherwise, if you want a a moderator to handle something, you use flags
 
@Machavity you can flag one of your own
 
@Machavity you flag your own post then :p
 
@gunr2171 Is that really true? I haven't seen that claim of yours in the FAQ before...
 
6:45 PM
@Machavity There are several million questions available. It doesn't need to be one that the user posted.
 
This is why the site needs a "PM the mods" page :-P
"Thank you for contacting us. We hope you are satisfied with our ownership service"
 
@JonClements Ah. Am surprised it wasn't mentioned on my Meta Q. Will remember that one
 
So, proposed update looks good, move on?
 
yeah
 
I was going to add something, but the ROs have moved on
 
6:48 PM
@Machavity Third bullet point of the answer? "Flag one of your own posts, explaining the situation."
 
@JonClements we do have 2 minutes still
 
okay thanks
I don't mind being pinged
 
@JonClements ping
 
inb4 ban
 
@JonClements We appreciate that but some mods might so we want cover everyone.
 
6:49 PM
if it's something you need me to look at 'cos we've spoken about it and I have context in my head
otherwise, mod's can "leave notes" on accounts, and all mods can review those, so flags are just the way to go if you need a mod to step in.
 
So follow up pings with a mod are OK?
 
Now I want to become a mod just to see the hidden footnotes under certain users' accounts...
 
oops, we have hit the time
 
@TylerH Jon Skeet: he thinks he's such a know it all...
 
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> Should we permit people to post requests about their own suggested edits when it is a tag wiki edit specifically about removing plagiarism?
 
6:52 PM
no
 
I think we should not allow this. Be clear in your edit comment and it should be handled correctly.
 
don't bring your own stuff
 
I'm neither strongly for nor against this. My personal decision to do so was because A) I had seen such plagarism-removal-edit requests prior to that for edits where the requester was the editor; B) the change was strictly just to remove plagiarism, which is something we are expressly required to be checking for/handling on tag wiki edits (specifically when reviewing tag wiki/excerpt edits); and C) the edit had already received a rejection.
 
I personally don't have a problem with it but don't mind it being disallowed under the 'no requests on your own actions' rule.
If it's allowed, it will be very easy and obvious to tell abuse of the policy.
 
nope (to topic)
 
6:54 PM
The problem is that the robo-reviewers will probably get those edits wrong and that leaves the plagiarism around which isn't something desirable either. It almost is a lose-lose situation
 
Perhaps allow this request if and only if it has already been rejected by robo-reviewers?
and it's only about plagiarism?
 
@TylerH Yeah, that's good with me.
 
it's even more work on the part of the requestor, because they'd have to submit the edit once, wait, it gets rejected, then make the edi tagain
which lowers the odds of abuse even more
 
This feels too much like sock puppetry to me. You don't have the priv to insta edit it so your are "using" other accounts to circumvent that.
 
I'm slightly tolerant about some tag wiki edits
 
6:56 PM
@NathanOliver Well, do we have an option to flag plagiarizing tag wikis for mods?
 
@TylerH If that happened I think it should be mod flagged or taken to meta. Those reviewers need to be looked at
 
I do believe they're made in good faith
 
@NathanOliver you can't flag a wiki post
 
@rene see 'flag your own post' etc. etc. probably there...
 
@rene You can flag one of your own
 
6:57 PM
not everyone knows the "rules of attribution" and unless it's a clear case of trying to do so nefarious it's a bit of a "um...."
 
I'd be curious to hear some moderator/Shog opinion about this since it might fall into sock puppetry/room collusion
 
that ^
 
Mod nor not - I presume good faith
 
Basically @Nathan's motto fits here: "Get rep"
 
@JonClements not about posting an edit that has plagiarism but posting an edit to remove it and asking the room to approve that removal.
 
6:59 PM
I am in the get rep camp
 
We can table this one and ping Shog or someone in Tavern on the Meta about it, perhaps
oh wait, pinging mods...
 
lol
 
well, hey, it's not the SOCVR room. I'm out of your jurisdiction >:-)
 
We could always ask meta. Makes it very transparent then.
 
7:00 PM
Technically @Shog9 is not a mod ...
 
@rene Shog is a mod installed by Joel Spolsky to increase the performance of his application
 
@NathanOliver certain members have been raising flags for that sort of things, and mods have been counteracting those things...
 
he rarely gets updated but when he does the featureset always improves greatly
 
@JonClements So, removing it, once found, is not really something that needs to be done?
 
@rene The SO API thinks he was elected moderator. Who are we to disagree? :P
 
7:02 PM
We are over time. We can either make a conclusion now or keep going if people want to.
 
The fact that users eventually get the privilege to unilaterally edit tag wikis lends itself toward the 'get rep' choice
 
I fear any conclusion would be based on information that couldn't be provided
 
@NathanOliver Just run your final statements after which we try to come to a conclusion
 
I say we ask Meta and move on
 
that ^
 
7:03 PM
We can say the decision is to disallow it for now but remain open to the subject being revisited in the future when/if there is more info available from mods/employees?
 
This concludes this room meeting. Conclusions are being written now and will appear here momentarily.
We'll keep this room open for another 30 minutes, then lock it until the next meeting. Thanks all for participating!
 
@NathanOliver give me 6 to 8 hours ...
 
will do ;)
I like asking on meta. Should it be SO or SE?
 
don't grovel for rep, post on MSO :-P
 
Thanks for everyone turning up and discussing their points
 
7:09 PM
@JonClements Thanks for the mod input. We always appreciate it.
 
Thanks for allowing us the pings @JonC
 
@TylerH This cc @PetterFriberg
 
7:29 PM
room mode changed to Gallery: anyone may enter, but only approved users can talk
 
 
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