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06:00 - 19:0019:00 - 21:00

6:50 AM
Madara Uchiha has unfrozen this room.
 
@gunr2171 Done
 
 
7 hours later…
1:34 PM
The next SOCVR room meeting will be at 18:00 today. View the topics here.
 
 
2 hours later…
3:25 PM
Umm... just realised I may have to pop out around the time this meeting is supposed to start... sigh... so apologies in advance if so, but we'll see how it goes...
 
 
2 hours later…
5:28 PM
Not to all: We will open the room up when the meeting starts. No need to request access.
 
This room was placed in timeout for 30 minutes; 30 minutes until meeting
 
/me puts on some countdown music...
 
room mode changed to Public: anyone may enter and talk
 
5:54 PM
Hello everyone, and welcome to SOCVR's 7th room meeting. We'll start with some intro messages then get right into the topics. As a reminder, you can find them here.
General reminder: please be nice to each other. Please keep the conversation on topic, and the no one-box rule applies here. Please use stars sparingly. RO's will clear stars after topics end.
The room will be in timeout for 1 minute at the start of each topic. Use this time to write up your long messages. Once the room has nothing left to add to the conversation, we'll move on to the next topic. The RO's will write up a proper conclusion to the room information repo at this time.
ROs and Moderators, please open up an incognito window to view the current timeout.
We have 6 topics to work through. We'll be discussing them in highest-voted/commented order, and we'll try to get through as many as we can in an hour. Max of 10 minutes per topic. Topics we don't get to will be at the next meeting if still applicable.
> The suggested edit queue is often full, this makes it impossible for <2000 user to edit posts. Do we like to intervene? and if so how? or is it better that the low-rep plebe don't touch anything.
 
We discussed a couple of meetings back that we wanted to do other events then close vote events. One option was to do edit events. Could we maybe abuse that suggestion for clearing suggested edit queue instead?
 
I think that if we want to encourage people to hit the Suggested Edit queue, then that's fine. There is going to be a lot of work added to the room if we put [review-pls] in.
 
Is this is still an issue now that the reviewer count has been shrunk?
 
@JanDvorak probably not
 
I for one don't think we need to do anything. SO broken the queue(s) when they changed the UI. They need to fix it to get people back to reviewing. from here you can see the design harmed all queues.
 
6:02 PM
Good. I vote we do nothing then.
 
or at least it shouldn't be if everything is working as SO planned
 
@JanDvorak Not as far as the queue population goes, but as for reviews quality...
 
we can't fix the latter
 
@Kyll quality is something Meta should fix, not us
I say we do nothing different
 
The edit queue will be a lot easier to clear than the CVQ -- it only takes 10-20 of us to clear the entire queue
 
6:03 PM
I agree. What about clearing events?
 
I'm not sure that we want to do anything here. The issue appears to be one more general, that as @NathanOliver stated was significantly caused by the change in UI. Our pitching in will just alleviate pressure on SO to fix the issues while increasing our workload.
 
I don't want my inbox to be swamped with SOCVR events
 
If event notifications are that annoying, we don't need to make an actual chat event
 
^
 
Minor argument from my side, I know
 
6:04 PM
@JanDvorak I only generate one every hour, just for you
 
O_o
 
Stack Overflow Full Queue Reviewers?
 
@NobodyNada that is an idea
 
SOSER = Stack Overflow Suggested Edit Reviewers
 
@Machavity the room name change is not on-topic
and never will be
 
6:05 PM
Let's discuss invalidating caches instead...
 
Quick, add name change to the topic list and invalidate everyone's memory of it
 
Anyway, it doesn't seem there's any opposition to SE queue clearing mini-events, is there?
 
It will lower the pressure on the dev team. I wouldn't mind keeping pressure.
 
So, is the conclusion that we want to remind people in the room to handle the edit queue but no formal events whatsoever, but mini events instead?
 
@Kyll Define "mini-event". I'm for keeping pressure on the dev-team to improve the UI.
 
6:07 PM
I'd be okay with that, or with doing nothing
 
@rene aye
 
Yeah, I don't think formal events are necessary. Heck, maybe write a simple bot to notify the room when it gets over 190
 
I vote for doing nothing
 
@Makyen "hey let's do some SE reviewing" "k"
 
^ exactly what I'm thinking
 
6:08 PM
@Machavity I like that idea. Stack Overflow Suggested Edit Level Monitor
 
@JanDvorak noted
 
Unless there's some opposition to what @rene said we'll be moving on.
Moving on then.
 
feels ignored by Kyll
 
This room was placed in timeout for 1 minute; Moving on to next topic.
> This topic is not intended to create a rule, but to give reference for new user on how the members of SOCVR evaluate the number of cv-pls request sent by a single user, lets create some guidelines.
 
I don't think there's much of a problem
 
6:10 PM
Status quo seems good. Gentle reminder when someone thinks too much is too much.
 
If someone's posting way too many requests, we can tell them to stop
 
When I see 4 or 5 in a row I normally say something.
 
@NobodyNada It's not that there is a problem, we just want some sort of baseline for new users
 
4 or 5 in a row doesn't seem awful
 
@gunr2171 "Try not to be noisy"?
 
6:11 PM
I feel there is a slight problem. It's not, necessarily, a problem of posting too much. It's a problem of posting too many and not also servicing the requests of others.
 
@JanDvorak yeah that is my threshold as well, time between posts maybe
 
It's not bad but I want to stop it there. I for one don't want to see 10 cv-pls in a row from someone just going through a list of Q's and posting cv-pls
 
I think we set a loose guideline of 5 per day a while back
 
What if I sit on the realtime tab and post what's there?
 
@NobodyNada for regulars that seems way to low
 
6:12 PM
5 per day seems limiting
 
@Makyen Ok, that is maybe true. But how do you notice that servicing other requests doesn't happen?
 
@JanDvorak You like drinking from the firehose?
 
@gunr2171 shrug it was about a year ago, if that makes a difference
 
If we don't have people on average voting on 4 times as many as they post, then the requests will not end up being closed.
 
@JanDvorak I'll direct you to FAQ#11 [cv-pls] should not be a habit for users. Don't make it an instinct to fast-track every eligible post to the front of the closure system
 
6:13 PM
interpretations of that rule have varied
 
I did make some graphs on the topic page to get some of that data @Makyen
 
@Makyen Yeah, I would think that posting here is payed by close voting on requests from others
 
You can one-box those gunr
 
This isn't the SOCVR room, oneboxes are allowed here :-)
 
@JanDvorak No.
Except in special circumstances
 
6:14 PM
Now you are contradicting yourself
 
@JanDvorak yeah, as common sense didn't seem to have much in common at all. That is where the 4-5 rule f thumb comes from
 
@rene The only way I've noticed it is seeing a lot of requests with only 1 or 2 close votes. There have been days where I've consumed all 50 votes just on requests in this room. We don't need to all the time, but on average, it's the only way it will work (4 time more than requests).
 
some data for cv-pls per month (I didn't get per-day data in time)
 
@Makyen true. Maybe we should at least say something in our FAQ about that. the price for a cv-pls is 2 close votes
 
Note, we only have 3 minutes left for this topic. Please make any final arguments. We need to get some resolution soon to keep on track.
 
6:17 PM
@rene I think it would be reasonable to at least explicitly state that we need people to on average service 4 times more requests than they make.
 
no more than n cv-pls in m minutes ;)
 
@NathanOliver Meh, artificial limits won't do much
 
@Makyen that would prevent people from requesting if they don't vote
 
^ As in have <3k rep
 
I think we settle on the 4 - 5 cv-pls in a row as rule of thumb and explicit ask to consider to close vote on open requests
 
6:18 PM
a) that includes me, and b) who would monitor that?
don't do those explicit asks too often, though
 
@JanDvorak Basically, if they are not voting, then they are asking people to do work without returning some. I'm not saying a moratorium on requests, just not abuse it.
 
@JanDvorak yeah, but I assume good faith, let's start with reminding people about to also spend close votes, aka not abuse our room
 
true.
4-5 in a row seems good
 
@Kyll If they have <3k rep, then the request should be rare, for especially deserving questions.
 
@Makyen why?
 
6:20 PM
@rene I'm not suggesting anything beyond reminders.
 
OK, that will work
 
Reminders seem good
 
mod in the room
 
@rene hide all teh things
Wrapping up then.
 
hides
 
6:21 PM
@JanDvorak The 3k is a rep level set which is supposed to, generally, indicate that the person has the experience to understand what really should be closed. While individuals vary, it's a general indicator.
 
This room was placed in timeout for 1 minute; Moving on to next topic.
This topic has been solved, the room will be frozen for one minute before the start of the next topic.
> In the rare occasions that I post an answer I would really love to have it proofread by a native speaker. It seems a bit cumbersome to head off to English Learner chat or Writers.se.
> Instead I would like to ask the regulars of SOCVR to proofread my post to iron out the most obvious spelling and grammar mistakes. However, the room has already several rules that prohibit to link to your own post, or posts you have a stake in. Can I request the room to scrutinize my own post for quality or is this a conflict of interest?
 
note: this is meant to be in the context of Meta, not the necessarily any answer
 
@rene Lol, drove like crazy to reach home before the meeting, but couldn't make it on time.
 
Every once in a while might be fine, but it can quickly get overwhelming
it kinda reeks of favoritism depending on whom we allow to ask.
 
6:24 PM
I smell conflict of interest and I'm more in favor of off-line handling as suggested by Mogsdad
 
Are we talking about regulars or non-regulars asking for proofreading?
 
I like mogsdads idea.
 
Yeah, GitHub gists are awesome for this kind of thing
 
@NobodyNada regulars
 
So: Yes once in a while, but use Gist or some offline area for more in-depth or frequent reviews
 
6:25 PM
I find it kinda obvious you wouldn't inline the whole question in chat
What do you mean by using gists?
 
If regulars want to help iteratively work on a meta post then why not just use another chat room?
 
Every single time I've done this before, be it from SOCVR or elsewhere, it was on a Gist. It's way easier to work with and isn't as dangerous as sending many pairs of eyes on the same post.
 
Github Gist
 
yes, but how?
 
@JonClements that will work, yes.
 
6:26 PM
@JanDvorak Write up what you want to post there, ask people to comment on it, then post when you're ready
 
Well, if the alternative is to dump your question into chat, then we have a clear winner
 
I agree on that. Anything else to add?
 
Yes WUT?
 
Nope
 
What did we just conclude?
 
6:28 PM
Those periodic room timeouts are kinda annoying
 
So you can ask for input/advice from SOCVR but the to/fro discussion goes in another room. Bit more interactive for discussion purposes and then gists or large blocks of text can be quoted/one-boxec
 
one-bo-what?
 
OK, that will work, thx @JonClements
 
Bah... I'm on a tablet....
 
Yeah, that's better
 
6:28 PM
This room was placed in timeout for 1 minute; Moving on to next topic.
This topic has been solved, the room will be frozen for one minute before the start of the next topic.
> Should we remove the link, keeping only the user name (to track stalkers) from the cv-pls user-script?
 
no need to, IMO
 
I'm more towards meh here, doesn't make a huge difference.
 
^ same
 
If we're going to keep the user name, I'm not sure there's a good reason to remove the link
 
Assuming we are all sane let's not remove the link
 
6:30 PM
What's the reason for having the name there?
 
@rene Let's remove it then?
 
@rene thats a big assumption ;)
 
what if we remove the name entirely?
 
@JonClements To catch people who for the same user multiple times
 
@JonClements for detection of user targetting by posting multiple requests
 
6:31 PM
@JonClements To prevent user-hunting
 
@JonClements Part of the reason is to track if people are singling out a user
 
> I'm against removing at least the user name. We do not allow cv-pls requests for multiple posts from the same user. Having the user name there is an easy way to identify when people are doing that. The link to the profile is probably unnecessary.
 
I'm not sure this has ever been abused, but it does help prevent abuse. 1. You spot targeting 2. You can spot patters more easily (think Smokey)
 
let's all ping the mod ...
 
Yeah, there's no don't ping mods rule here
 
6:31 PM
what if we turn a blind eye to user-hunting, then if someone does it and meta strikes back, the room isn't to blame?
 
Ahhh.... Can't closey track that and issue a message to the user which will get noticed by the room?
 
@BhargavRao hurriedly reaches out to pen and paper
 
@JanDvorak does it work that way, you think?
 
Worth trying
we can always ask for forgiveness
 
@JanDvorak After careful consideration, no.
 
6:32 PM
@JanDvorak It's difficult to rebuild our reputation
 
that ^
 
@JonClements we have RO tools that already do this, just not public for reasons...
 
@NobodyNada if we try to keep in the shades, then yes, it's hard to get people like us while not knowing about us
 
Phew, fashionably late, but hadn't missed the whole thing.
 
SOCVR would benefit from making itself more visible
 
6:34 PM
Welcome Madara and Petter.
@JanDvorak ... By getting Meta strikes?
 
@JanDvorak I'm not sure I understand how that relates to user stalking?
 
I'm just reading so far.
 
Anyway
 
@πάνταῥεῖ lurker
:p
 
@BhargavRao That.
 
6:35 PM
@rene ahhh okies... So isn't this a catch 22... Someone using the script keeps mentioning the same user from the outside looks like targeting but it's only there for the room to pick up on targeting and warn against it....
 
At best, the links seem unnecessary. They are not particularly harmful. The overall reaction seems to be "Meh". So let's not do anything about it until a PR removes it and we're like "Eh, sure"?
 
@JanDvorak well, yes and no. But I don't want to risk being known over user targeting.
@JonClements yes
 
They can't blame you for it if you had no way to fight it
 
@JanDvorak Yes, they can.
 
this is why SE doesn't track copyright violations after all
 
6:36 PM
@JanDvorak But we do have a way to fight it.
 
yes, but only if we break the "don't mention people" semi-rule
anyways, the conclusion seems to be to keep status quo, which is fine with me
 
@JanDvorak SO doesn't track copyright violations because it's not worth the trouble.
If someone files a DMCA claim, SO staff will take care of it.
 
> Note, we only have 2 minutes left for this topic. Please make any final arguments. We need to get some resolution soon to keep on track.
 
@MadaraUchiha I mean, mods routinely decline flags about copyright violations
 
Concluding: so we keep the username and the link and maybe consider posting an automatic warning if a user is being targetted
 
6:38 PM
no need to write a bot for what a human can do
 
@rene Is targeting 2+, or 3+ requests?
 
@JanDvorak You have it the other way around
 
No need to do something a bot could.
 
@Makyen 2+ at least that is when the RO's are informed
 
6:39 PM
@MadaraUchiha ... Rofl.
 
@rene I've done 2 without knowing it, just going through new questions in a tag.
 
It's not targeting if the same guy posts two pieces of junk in quick succession
plus, it's common to cv-pls self-dupe, then cv-pls the original
 
@JanDvorak In which case we ignore the warning.
 
@Makyen yes, that is why we have a human RO validate the warnings before we take action
 
@Jan The point isn't that we're actually targeting; it's that we don't want to look like we're targeting.
 
6:40 PM
Issuing warnings that should be ignored is confusing
 
@JanDvorak Ah, but you have it wrong. It may not be targetting, but it certainly looks like it is
 
@NobodyNada Don't actually target either though, please.
 
@JanDvorak hence why it's RO job =p
 
Conclusions?
 
@rene As long as we keep a human in the loop, it's good.
 
6:41 PM
So... posting CV-requests is becoming a minefield. I can't just post valid requests. I also have to check if they're not by the same person as the previous one.
Do we no longer cv-pls dupe originals then?
 
@JanDvorak Not a minefield, but you most certainly have to be careful.
 
@Makyen I will discuss with the other RO's to appoint a human then...
 
@JanDvorak This is partially my concern. I don't want to even look at the user's name wrt. if the content is good/bad.
 
@JanDvorak Sure you can. Maybe explain it quickly, too
Anyway
Wrapping up
 
Yeah, be faster than the ROs, otherwise you'll get scorned. I think I'll avoid contributing instead.
 
6:43 PM
Is it our fault if users fequently ask bad questions?
 
All points have been presented and I'm drawing a conclusion. Moving on.
 
plus, how far back do we monitor accidental double-cvs?
 
@JanDvorak or just delete your request if you trip the automatic warning by accident
 
This room was placed in timeout for 1 minute; Moving on to next topic.
This topic has been solved, the room will be frozen for one minute before the start of the next topic. If you feel like the previous topic has been insufficiently discussed, please comment on the GitHub issue.
> Queen is passing duplicate notifications, she has started to send offensive comments... How much can we take of this breaking train bee?
 
I think Queen's fine
 
6:44 PM
If it's breaking trains, then it's doing a good job
 
Fire's worse as far as volume of messages posted, I think
 
What does "passing duplicate notifications" mean?
 
Also, just so that I'm sure I understand correctly, Queen is a bot, yes?
 
That's an old one, when Tuna was still with us... now it's less, only @πάνταῥεῖ use it in SOCVR
 
6:45 PM
Yep
 
@MadaraUchiha yes
 
@MadaraUchiha that is true
 
@MadaraUchiha Yup she is
 
@PetterFriberg Yes. I didn't manage to move it so far.
 
6:46 PM
Seriously, If I'm accused of targeting by this fancy new bot, I'm gonna rage quit
 
oh hi
 
I think queen isn't much of a problem
 
I think queens volume is fine. Fire might need to be toned down a little but we are removing the posts after 30 minutes + whenever the ro's run the cleanup script
 
@rene Agreed
 
6:47 PM
@rene how about generalizing it: how many bot messages is too much?
 
so, when does topic #4 actually get solved?
 
@NobodyNada That's better
 
five minutes per three months isn't nearly enough
 
@JanDvorak it never will
 
We've had this discussion raised with first Queen, then Fire, and now EditMonitor
 
6:47 PM
@NathanOliver as long as you don't turn her volume up to 11
 
@NathanOliver an auto archiver would have been better. ;)
 
@NobodyNada 5 in a row I guess
 
oh yes...especially if they're all the same
 
@BhargavRao that means giving a bot RO's ship and were hesitant to do so.
 
@rene Over what time period? There are times of the day when the primary activity is bots.
 
6:48 PM
@MadaraUchiha so users shouldn't bother worrying about it either?
 
@NathanOliver the other way, run the bot on an RO's account.
 
but that has the same effect, doesn't it?
 
But true, both are not that safe
 
@Makyen Skynet starts to take over ;-)
 
@NathanOliver set up an audit trail for the bot so if someone logs in to abuse it, you will know who
 
6:49 PM
@TylerH Unless we're talking blatant plagiarism, moderators aren't well equipped to deal with copyright violations and/or intellectual property claims
 
@Makyen yeah, I'm trying to find a screenshot that @tiny made a couple of weeks ago where we basically had 2 hours of only bot talk in the room
 
Proposed topic: minor infractions frequently cause heated discussions. How to fix this?
 
@MadaraUchiha I'm referring to copying code over from a jsfiddle to a post which some users have made a big stink about
 
@TylerH Link in a separate room?
 
I think giving a bot room ownership is okay, as long as the code is carefully written and tested
 
6:50 PM
... and we're now adding to the list of minor infractions that can happen accidentally
 
Can we come back to the topic
?
 
> Note, we only have 3 minutes left for this topic. Please make any final arguments. We need to get some resolution soon to keep on track.
 
@rene 5 spaced out over 2 hours isn't all that much (assuming it's not 5 each from 100 bots).
 
yes, please
 
user4639281
...
 
6:51 PM
Proposed topic: adjust topic times based on what is needed. This fixed schedule thing is not useful.
 
I'd be in for some rate-limiting (batches?) from bots yeah
 
BOT owners: Keep the heavy bot traffic in SOBotics and only pass messages now and then to SOCVR, trying to listen to the mood of the room.
 
@JanDvorak We're going back to #4 at the end
 
@JanDvorak Like kanban sprintboards
 
thanks
 
user4639281
6:52 PM
 
It will be hard to beat Smokey into submission if SO gets a spam wave
or an abu-wave, more likely
 
@TylerH Yep. It happens. My most recently declined flag was a mod saying that copying from JSFiddle is normal and acceptable: "It's generally accepted that bringing code from an external JSFiddle into a question is a good edit. I see no problems with this."
 
waffles
 
@TinyGiant I'm not so sure that's too much bot volume rather than too little human volume
 
you don't want to kick smokey just because he lets you know of an ongoing problem
 
6:53 PM
@TinyGiant thx
 
@JanDvorak But he still lets us know in Charcoal; if its too much for SOCVR, that's okay
 
Agreed. This screenshot spans ... two hours or so. That's not excessive.
 
@JanDvorak yeah, that is also true
 
@NobodyNada it's still programming that needs to be done, and not helpful for SO
 
Wrapping up then
 
6:54 PM
already?
 
I'm often active during those times. When I am I do check many of the reports by Fire and Smokey. I haven't found the traffic to be too much (except when Fire first when on-line).
 
@JanDvorak We're kind of going in circles now
 
@JanDvorak yes, we're done with this topic I think
 
We can all agree on asking some form of batching / rate-limiting from authors, in general.
 
more like an inward spiral, IMO
 
6:55 PM
still a kind of circle
which we don't like
 
I don't think the current posts are too excessive, and hard limits are not worth the code they take
 
I think we should judge bots on a case-by-case basis.
If we decide it's too much, then we turn it down.
 
OK, not a spiral, but a set of converging rays
 
@JanDvorak I agree on that and on that ^
now let's move on
 
This room was placed in timeout for 2 minutes; Moving on.
This topic has been solved, the room will be frozen for two minutes.
This concludes this room meeting. Conclusions are being written now and will appear here momentarily.
Some more discussion is wanted by regulars on topic #4. It will start once the timeout ends.
We'll keep this room open for a while, then lock it until the next meeting. Thanks all for participating!
urgh never mind
> A lot of the non-FAQ content on our website is either out of date or not user friendly. This task is to spruce up the site to make it easier for readers to find what they are looking for, take out unimportant stuff, and clean up the rest.
Dang, reading is hard. Let's go for that one, sorry for the show.
 
6:59 PM
spoiler
 
Sweet, who's left for the last topic? :-P
 
T-T
 
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