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9:00 PM
You &^%$%!*(((!!
 
We seem to be done here.
 
You cannot satisfy everybody, I abide by the "be honest" first
 
I think we do need to watch our tone. Sure, the question may be bad, but talking like that is rude. If a new user enters the room and sees us talking like that, we want them to think “What a friendly place! I’d like to help out here!” and not "These guys are a bunch of jerks."
 
Well one thing is people need to remember to use a real close reason when requesting a [cv-pls].
 
Yes. We should watch our tone and keep qualitative statements out of our cv-pls requests
 
9:01 PM
I think that cv-please should be limited to exact close reasons only, then a neutral-tone explanation if needed
 
user4639281
Be respectful in all discussions, regardless of topic.
 
Honest is good. But you can be respectfully honest and not so respectfully honest. Let's try to be respectful :-)
 
@TylerH well, we are talking a crappy question... of course we will say "it's a crappy question"
 
@Braiam no
 
@TylerH $#%$#%^#$%&&%^*&*!~!!!
 
9:01 PM
there's no "crappy" CV option
When performing the functions of the SOCVR, we should remain professional
 
who's talking about close reasons?
 
Do we need another rule for this... or just common sense is enough?
 
@PetterFriberg this
 
@PetterFriberg I'd like to say common sense is enough, but clearly people disagree on what's common sense
 
Since this was even noticed and brought up in the first place, it seems we do need a new rule (or that we just need to enforce our existing one).
 
9:02 PM
@Braiam Why not say "it's a low-quality" question? Doesn't that convey exactly the same information?
 
the fact that this is even a topic says "just use common sense" is not an OK rule
 
@TylerH the same way people disagree on what "is rude"
 
@PetterFriberg We do have "Stay nice and professional in chat ... Keep it professional, keep a high standard." in the FAQ
 
What's the Real Harm stemming from this?
And is it such that we want to create, maintain, and enforce a whole new rule?
 
@Undo People are describing other users/questions in offensive, harmful, and/or desctructive terms
 
9:03 PM
look, you can trow all the flowers that you want, but we are stepping onto sore toes by closing questions anyways
 
What part of "Be Nice" don't you understand?
 
@Braiam But closing questions isn't rude.
 
@Glorfindel what has anything to do with that?
 
@Braiam Yes, but closing questions abides by the rules of the site. Saying someone's Q is trash is not.
 
user4639281
You can think anything you want, but if you're going to say something in chat, keep it professional and respectful.
 
9:04 PM
> Lately i've been seeing a lot of comments that read like "Question is just trash" or "OP knows nothing".
 
@TylerH If they're offensive, chat and the network has procedures to handle that already. If it's not enough to trigger those procedures, we need to either consider whether it's a real issue, or consider whether we need to change the rules of chat itself.
 
^ comments like that are not constructive/rude, ok, but close reasons?
 
@Undo we are discussing that very thing here...
@Braiam use prescribed CV reasons in cv-pls requests
 
user4639281
I think we're talking more about unconstructive comments as opposed to offensive comments
 
AKA "Too Broad" or "Typo" or "No MCVE".
 
9:05 PM
@TylerH who's not using those already? Please the one that proposed this bring examples!
EXAMPLES!
 
Likewise we should not be seeing requests with descriptions like "trash" "useless" etc.
 
Without examples, we may be playing put the tail to the donkey
 
> "Question is just trash" or "OP knows nothing"
 
@TylerH To play devil's advocate, what should be used instead?
 
@NobodyNada were are those comments?
 
9:06 PM
@Braiam chat.stackoverflow.com/search?q=stupid&room=90230 (for the ones that don't match the title)
 
> Unlikely to help future visitors
 
@Undo "low quality", or something more specific like "lacks details", "unclear", etc.
 
user4639281
@Undo unsalvageable, but otherwise unlikely to be deleted
 
@gunr2171 12 messages in ~2 years?
 
@Undo The first discussion item here is not so much the content of what's being said but the tone
 
9:07 PM
that's just one phrase
 
I think that is pretty clear that it's not a problem
 
user4639281
Keep in mind that we used to be a lot worse than we are now about this.
 
9:08 PM
@TylerH I know, but at the same time you're trying to define what language should and shouldn't be used to describe questions that are of unsavory quality.
 
Y'all're using the wrong room id
 
that's the graveyard
 
@Tunaki ?? graveyard?
 
@Braiam where the closed/deleted requests go
 
@Undo I'm not a RO here so I don't really get a say in what the final binding verbiage is, I'm just trying to help along the conversation
 
9:09 PM
@NobodyNada I know
 
by giving examples of harmful language
 
Yep, understand.
 
well, for my point of view, the tone of the room is pretty tame
 
Note, we only have 3 minutes left for this topic. Please make any final arguments. We need to get some resolution soon to keep on track.
 
Useless is a constructive comment, meaning "unlikely to help future visitors,"
but it comes across as a bit rude.
 
user4639281
9:09 PM
If the question was your question, how would you feel about the language used?
 
Look, I understand the motivation behind this. At the same time, I don't believe this is an enforceable rule to have. Honestly, I'd have the same reaction to ya'll calling one of my questions 'trash' as I would 'unsalvageable'. Playing whack-a-word is going to get tiring fast.
 
user4639281
I'm not opposed to useless.
 
@Braiam that is also a personal matter, we try to find common ground
 
@NobodyNada well, that's a sad reality of the english
 
Final argument: stick to prescribed CV reasons when making requests, don't use deconstructive language when describing a question
 
9:10 PM
"Not useful" sounds a bit more polite
 
Just be nice and sensibile to this topic, no new rule is need, the rulez in place are already stating this!
 
I'm personally OK with useless, though I think not useful is better sounding
Or the long form, "This question is unlikely to help future readers"
 
basically: don't moderate words, there are many words that can come as rude in any context, yet themselves in particular are not, and the opposite is true too
 
but that's a mouthful (fingerful?)
 
Ok, between Tyler's and Nobody's messages, I think we have a conclusion?
 
9:12 PM
^
 
user4639281
^
 
agreed
 
Ok, moving on to the next topic
This room was placed in timeout for 1 minute; topic 2
> We've still been keeping an eye on burnination requests since then, as they are posted on Meta, but have yet to notice any progress or support past the votes on the post.
> Does SOCVR still want to participate in burnination efforts? Is our moderation time, and our votes, better spent on the front page and new activities?
 
Yes. Though I think this might also be easier with the help of Closey.
 
I’d say yes — we’re the only people who are doing them. We haven’t done any for a long time, and nobody else has stepped up and done it.
 
9:14 PM
that ^
 
We haven't had any organized events for doing tag burninations in some time... if a RO could organize those, we'd get them done much faster, I think
 
I haven't seen a burnination request featured in a long time
 
Yes, we've got a pool of people who are good at this kind of thing. Maybe don't take on another Godaddy, but for smaller ones this is a great place to organize.
 
I say no for anything longer than a week to finish. Meta has no invested support in burnination requests. "Help" from their end comes and goes like the wind. We wrote the FAQ entry for how burnination processes work, and we've been the only ones doing anything about it.
 
what we need is to motivate people to moderate/clean the site
 
9:15 PM
SubQuestion: Do we want to create a "soft" cutoff for when we as a room will tackle one? AKA <= 1000 questions, we will tackle it, and > 1000, we will let the whole community do it over time?
 
It's one thing to come across a question and think "hey, this should be closed". It's quite another to actively go looking for questions that need to be closed. It tends to put people in a certain "frame of mind" and view questions in a different light. It's very difficult to stay "neutral".
 
@Braiam that's a monumental project.
 
and the only way to do that is via positive reinforcement: look at this that you did, it was useful, it make SO a better place
 
@gunr2171 How do you determine how long it will take?
 
number of questions, like you said
 
9:15 PM
ok
 
@Undo well, I had tried to tackle it from many angles, but it needs dedication of the SE staff
 
We also came up with the idea of slightly changing the way SOCVR as a room undergoes burnination events - do massive tag clean-ups as events. Don't retag, just edit into shape and close / delete whatever needs to be. Then let the CM team handle the retagging.
 
I don't have any stats on numbers against time
 
user4639281
I think that before we should take on a burnination, the tag must be black listed
 
@Kyll do we have CM team buyin for that?
 
9:16 PM
There are some burnination request that are pretty straight forward (internet, anyone?)
 
I thought burninations were exactly because it was something an SQL script couldn't do?
 
@TylerH Nopez
 
@JanDvorak yes
 
@TinyGiant I tried to use that analogy, Shog found easier just just remove the tag using the nuke
 
@TinyGiant I think that's normally a much higher burden than we've done in the past
 
9:17 PM
We can't close all the thingzz anyway... so lets have fun with some burnation, smaller ones where less frustration builds and instead we feel fulfillment.
 
@PetterFriberg my point
 
+1 on bringing in fun to the room
 
we need that people participate and feels good while doing it
 
So what is the cutoff point for how many questions on a tag before we won't handle it anymore?
 
otherwise, they will not do it again
 
9:18 PM
500? 1000? over 9000?
 
@JanDvorak me no fun?
 
You don't have to participate, @rene
 
@Braiam we will also discuss that point when we talk about Closey, I hope :-)
 
depends on the size of the crowd? say one person can review 40-50 in one sitting
 
Ok, so how about: we will take on burnination events where it is a short amount of work and the type of processing on each post is well defined (retagging, mass CV'ing, etc)
 
9:19 PM
@TylerH I'd handle it case-by-case, some will be inherently less effort per question than others.
 
@TylerH how about putting the limit at "ugh; I don't want to do that"
 
Who will do the big burninations? My guess is nobody will.
 
There was an history about a group of people that were tasked cleaning X km of beach, with 10000 people, many were ok; that number shrank to 100, nobody was willing
 
@gunr2171 tentative star from me, but I'm concerned (cc @Undo @NobodyNada) about the vagueness of that statement
 
We do have to realize that depending on our decision, burnination may or may not simply disappear from SO. We're the only ones doing it.
 
9:20 PM
@TylerH what can I improve about it?
 
@gunr2171 pick a number
 
@TylerH Yes, but I'm more concerned about setting a hard line.
 
@Kyll and that's what is wrong!
 
@JanDvorak #NotOurProblem
 
@Undo The number can be used as a target guideline
 
9:20 PM
@TylerH That'd be sane, as long as it's a guideline and not a hard rule.
 
@JanDvorak he can't, @NobodyNada needs 5 users
 
@JanDvorak SE staff need to do them : ), you can't kill users at that stuff.... they should just execute DELETE this_darn_tag FROM So and be done with it
 
@Undo like, "any burnination under 1,000 questions, we will do it, sure, but more than 1,000 and we have to discuss as a room if our effort is worth it"
 
1000 is a lot.
 
1k is probably a little high. 500 or less, at most
 
9:21 PM
because to some people 100 might be a lot and others, 3000 might be a lot
 
I like 500
 
I vote for over 9000
 
see, I'm glad we are talking numbers because 1000 is not a lot IMO. I am fine with less, though (500 sounds good)
 
I like 250
 
I think that the cutoff needs to be dynamic: how many cv's are you willing to pledge for X burnination request
once we have the cv's needed we can start
 
9:22 PM
Probably too much bureaucracy.
 
500 is ok; that's 10 people maxing out their daily CVs
 
How about we base the number of posts on on the number of people who will commit themselves to the process. take the number of CV's they can use in a week as a base line
 
@Braiam as many as it takes, they are events. No need to say we will do nothing until we have 100% coverage
 
@TylerH the criteria are in the burnination priority list
 
@gunr2171 That's a good idea if we can get involvement
 
9:22 PM
Am I thinking correctly that 500 questions will take over a week to close? :-)
 
user4639281
black list all tags first, then we can do burnination events over time.
 
@Braiam I personally don't want to make commitments to moderating SO.
 
@rene I don't understand that query
 
@TylerH magic... the black kind
 
1st world problems
 
user4639281
9:23 PM
not all tags...
 
I'd work on burninations in my free time, and the amount of that I have is unpredictable. Also, I want to spend my free time doing something I'm enjoying; if I'm bored of burnination, I don't want to have to do it.
 
@TinyGiant #yesalltags
 
The problem with burniations – and one of the reasons they stopped – isn't necessarily about "how many people are willing to do it", but rather that stuff gets "cleaned up" that didn't really need "cleaning up". Certainly from the perspective of the SO community as a whole that was the experience with the godaddy tag cleanup.
 
@NobodyNada agreed
 
Note, we only have 3 minutes left for this topic. Please make any final arguments. We need to get some resolution soon to keep on track.
 
9:23 PM
@JanDvorak for 5 people, yes that would take 1.5 weeks
but for 10 people that would take 4 days
 
the more the merrier
 
if we had 15 people doing a burnination event (I know, I'm optimistic), it could be done in a day or two at 500 questions
 
The problem with "community as a whole" is that according to those guys all those closures we do aren't really needed
 
500 is a nice upper limit... From experience: corners was 173, close was ~250, guidelines was ~380
 
We need to convince the community at large to participate, to prevent burnouts of the members of the room. We can be spearheads, but if we are the only ones... that would be sad.
 
9:24 PM
@TylerH right, and that can scale as we have people registering
 
Better tooling might help, with all the problems
 
what about taking this discussion to Meta? Should we ask a Meta question, "Do we still want to do burninations?"
 
@JanDvorak "those guys" I think is a small but vocal subset
 
Not sure what that would look like, though
 
@Carpetsmoker We have burnaki!!!!
 
9:25 PM
@JanDvorak I remember some stats that we were responsible for 60% of all closures on the site for X amount of time
 
@TylerH so are we
 
@NobodyNada we might be well served to try it out first and then once we have data on whether it works or not (or needs to scale) we can take it to meta
 
user4639281
The problem with what we've done in the past is that we have focused on closure, when there is a lot more to a burnination.
 
@JanDvorak yes SOCVR is small but the function we are performing (site moderation) has wide buyin from most of meta
 
@NobodyNada already done that meta.stackoverflow.com/q/318481/792066
 
user4639281
9:26 PM
That makes us look like all we do is close and delete everything
 
Alright, so I think the conclusion here is "we can take on <=500 post burninations (that meet site requirements), anything more we'll have to talk about"
ok, moving on
 
I thought they would always go to meta?
for prior discussion/vetoing
 
@JanDvorak Ofc. But the large ones we'll discuss a lot more before undertaking.
 
I miss puns...
 
@Braiam Aim better.
 
9:27 PM
This room was placed in timeout for 1 minute; topic 3
> Right now, we don't move close vote requests (and others) to the graveyard until they are "completed", which means closed or deleted. That means our transcript fills up with "uncompleted" vote requests because people don't agree with them.
> We do move requests that are older than 3 days, but should we have a formal way of "disagreeing" with requests?
 
How about simply not voting?
 
Many people seem to like this notion, but the real question is, how to implement it?
 
I say yes, there should be
 
The only tenable way I think would be via a userscript
 
@Braiam That's like not downvoting. you lose half the signal.
 
9:29 PM
@TylerH that. It doesn't really fit with the chat format very well.
 
we do move cv-pls after 3 days out of the script, after we fixed the bug ...
 
@rene 3?
 
could be the same style as Smokey replies.
 
3 days*
 
@gunr2171 well, the thing is "how you disagree"?
 
9:29 PM
Having stuff stay in the "chat queue" makes it difficult to "quickly spend close votes" on stuff that should obviously be closed.
 
You'd need a room-owner bot. Seems like more work than it's work IMO, but doable.
 
user4639281
I'm thinking of a queue set up using the API on socvr.org
 
We could also move requests to a dashboard on socvr.org or something
 
We already have a bot to trash completed requests
 
9:30 PM
@Braiam exactly. that's what we would like do. Have a way for people to disagree. The RO bot is a possibility
 
@Undo not necessarily. A userscript could write data to a db and just have a live updating interface
 
@gunr2171 I disagree!
 
@TylerH yeah, but then you need someone to be running a browser window all the time. Meh, technical details.
 
Is there someone interested/willing to do some of the coding necessary to this?
 
^ see, that's just disagreeing, not convincing you
 
9:30 PM
@Undo Yeah, we would probably just put it on a bot anyway, but it doesn't need to be an RO
 
The problem becomes when this dashboard becomes CVQ 2.0 and just as full
 
user4639281
I'm interested in writing a queue set up using the API on socvr.org
 
Here's another problem: disagreement doesn't prevent people from voting to close
 
If I see something I disagree with, I should be able to explain why I disagree with it, not just saying "I disagree"
 
@NobodyNada And it shouldn't.
 
9:31 PM
@JanDvorak No, things will be moved after 3 days. It was actually buggy and wasn't done properly, but this has been fixed.
 
Well, let's put aside the implementation for a moment. Should we have a way for people to disagree with a request and help move it to the graveyard faster?
 
it could be interesting at least to have a formal chat standard to disagree... from there you could build scripts or bots if people use it
 
@gunr2171 Probably.
 
similar to "leave open" in the cv queue
 
@gunr2171 yes
 
9:31 PM
@gunr2171 sorry, I guess I jumped the gun a bit. Yes
 
user4639281
@gunr2171 yes
 
I give it 3/4 agreement
 
@gunr2171 note that the "leave open" doesn't counter close votes
 
Yes we should have a way; jury's still out on how
 
@gunr2171 We already do, via replies. Just say "This seems salvageable", edit the post, then see
 
9:32 PM
anyone can organically close it
 
"leave open" only evicts stuff from the CVQ
 
user4639281
which is the same here
 
We should repeal and replace our current implementation of nothing. Replace it how? Well... we'll get back to you...
 
user4639281
it would evict it from the room's queue
 
@Undo yeah; I didn't really think before posting that.
 
9:32 PM
@Kyll That's not formal... no one could build anything on that in the future
 
@TylerH right, that's what I'm getting at. We can talk design later, but for now I just want to know if this is something the room wants to do.
 
I think the only sane approach to disagreeing is editing...
if you don't think it should be closed, edit it!
 
We could have replies in a predetermined format that a script can pick up
 
use stars as "leave open" votes on cv-pls requests? 3 stars, then it's cleared and moved to the graveyard
 
One useful metric of creating an implementation here rather than doing it by rote each time (Braiam's suggestion) is that we could start to see metrics on any problematic behaviors
@approxiblue too much cross noise
 
@JanDvorak something like ":<message ID> Disagree. <reasoning>"
 
What if I think that a question should stay open, but doesn't need editing either?
 
stars already have a well-defined, other purpose and we can't prevent users from starring for the wrong reason @approxiblue
 
@Braiam I think there's a lot of newbies that show up in the room that say "this should be closed" that have no idea what is closable.
 
@NobodyNada will do
 
9:34 PM
@LynnCrumbling that would be a problem with whatever implementation we use... also, newbie with 3k???!
 
@JanDvorak that is a very real possibility. I don't think strictly editing will cut it
 
I think anyone with over 2k, is responsible of its own actions
 
Note, we only have 3 minutes left for this topic. Please make any final arguments. We need to get some resolution soon to keep on track.
 
rep != experience w/ close powers...
 
@Braiam new to the room, not to 3k rep
 
9:35 PM
replies work pretty well with SD
 
@Braiam When I first hit 3k, I had a hard time figuring out what "too broad" meant until I learned from watching you guys.
 
(and experience with the room as well per Tyler)
 
Lots of people with >3k rep who are not familiar with SO as such
 
I like Jan's idea for now. Have a formatted response like ":<message ID> Disagree. <reasoning>"
 
9:35 PM
@TylerH one would expect 3kers to know
 
yeah, we have the technical means to do this. And we have the support to do it. Let's do it.
 
you can pile on an alternate interface later on, FDSC style
 
@Braiam One shouldn't expect 3kers to know SOCVR rules and norms
 
@TylerH one would expect them to know when to vote to close...
 
@JanDvorak agreed
 
9:36 PM
The graveyard script should also archive disagreements.
 
room rules aren't above SO guidance
 
Ok, so conclusion is that we would like to have some functionality for the room members to provide feedback on a request where they disagree, and with enough support it will be moved to the graveyard. Details will be discussed later.
 
Maybe we should use to make it more explicit and searchable.
 
@NobodyNada Just check it into a new room, yeah.
 
@NobodyNada nah. Plain text will do.
 
9:37 PM
@JanDvorak though tagging will allow it to stand out to our eyes easier
 
Ready to move on?
 
we do, from time to time, have length discussions in socvr...
 
can anyone show a example of someone disagreeing with a close?
 
aye
 
9:37 PM
@gunr2171 my suggestion is that for now we implement a formal message, example reply... with tag and then we can implemented it
 
@gunr2171 Yes I think we've said enough on this
 
The exact format is a bit of a bikeshed and something that can be sorted out later
 
@gunr2171 yep
 
I can accept the argument of searchability
 
@JanDvorak But plain text would work for . Tag markup stands out, is easier to search, and is easier for bots to detect.
 
9:37 PM
This room was placed in timeout for 1 minute; topic 4
> There are 3 events each week on the calendar to "Clear the CVQ". Are those events really necessary? Does anyone even do something with these events?
 
Wait. What events are you talking about?
 
I understand the reason for removing them. We as a group don't focus on the CV queue as much as we used to. There is another topic (which we might get to today) about fixing Closey which should help with that.
 
Let's get rid of those events
 
No. I took a long break from CV reviewing, and the events weren’t annoying at all; just one banner to dismiss and a few messages to ignore. When I came back to reviewing, I really enjoyed reviewing during the events.
 
as long as we keep getting feeded
 
9:39 PM
Considering this is the regular function of the room, I don't think they should be on the calendar. Plus, without Closey, the "events" seem kind of hollow.
 
@gunr2171 I don't think they are. I vote to kill them.
 
I think we should kill until we can get back on track with the queue usage.
 
Worse, these events keep popping up for everyone who ever visited this room, with no way to get rid of the notifications
 
Since every day is "clear the CVQ" day
 
@JanDvorak This is the strongest argument to remove them, yes.
 
9:40 PM
any arguments to keep?
 
@TylerH I know you said it in jest.. but oh so true
@gunr2171 only in case of special events
 
Is is by design, the events kind of are the glue of the room, or at least they should be
 
@gunr2171 keep rene busy?
 
How about we just replace them with a daily message from Closey, saying which tags to work on?
 
user4639281
I like the events, I think we need to fix closey, and keep the events
 
9:41 PM
@NobodyNada there's an upcoming discussion item on fixing closey
 
What do you mean, fix Closey?
 
@JanDvorak Closey has been broken for months
 
@NobodyNada AFAIK, tags work with the data dump
 
Our tooling and mindsets have evolved, the CV queue and the events hardly. Events can bind us as a room and be used as special moments to share moderation. We have to find a better way to handle them, a way to engage more people into them. Until them, have a pause.
 
Closey, our stack tracking bot, has been down/broken for a while
 
9:41 PM
"Tags to work on" updates once a week
so no need to repeat it every day
 
I think both topics should have been discussed after fixing Closey
 
@TylerH true; a weekly pin then
 
@Kyll conclusion?
 
^
 
@gunr2171 Plop?
 
9:43 PM
@gunr2171 kill the events.
 
ok, moving on
This room was placed in timeout for 1 minute; topic 5
(this should be a short one)
> The metrics and interaction provided by Closey were a big part of what drove SOCVR users to participate in Close Events, Tag Burninations, etc., and those have suffered during Closey's illness. As a result, overall site quality suffers, too.
 
Mail-in from Sam:
> Just want to drop this by here as I won't be online for the meeting. I've been inactive over the past few weeks (as you've probably noticed), and thus haven't been able to continue fixing her. I do hope to be back in action starting from the 25-26th of this month (and have Closey up and running soon after).
> Currently the only thing stopping (the latest version of) Closey from being ran at the moment is her tracking library, it's buggy. Booting up an old version should be relatively easy, it's just a matter of finding a suitable commit to build/deploy.
 
I’d be interested in helping to fix Closey; let me know if there’s anything for me to work on. I’ve never done C# programming, but I need to learn it.
 
can_fix_closey() { if (programmers > enough) return true }
 
@NobodyNada Sam and I can help. Sam for the http stuff. Me for everything else.
 
9:44 PM
Seems like the answer is "Yes", and it's already being worked on sort of by Sam.
 
So I mean uh, yeah. Gotta get back to her, that's all. Move on?
 
And I still have that Amazon AWS instance if servers are needed.
 
yep, I think that's it
and moving on
 
Set a timeline for repair perhaps?
 
This room was placed in timeout for 1 minute; topic 6
@LynnCrumbling 6-8 somethings
> Is it worth enforcing any kind of rule on del-pls requests on this subset of questions?
 
9:46 PM
Feels like the same policy as NAA's...
 
@gunr2171 Yes, because no one really knows how the roomba works.
 
Yes but its nice to indicated if 10k or 20K
 
We should not allow them in most cases, because no harm is done by letting them remain on the site for a few days, and they just add noise to the room.
 
No, except in cases of abusive content
 
@Undo Magic™
 
9:46 PM
if you feel that it should be deleted NAO, I don't see any way to enforce this
 
There's a userscript that tracks the roomba rules
 
user4639281
@Undo No we should not allow it because no one knows how it works?
 
@TinyGiant No, it's not worth enforcing any kind of rule
 
@JanDvorak thing is... roomba has been sick before
 
Reminder, when posting yes/no messages, they are in response to the linked Topic, not the quote that follows
 
9:47 PM
@Undo We know how it works, well at least mostly. The delete question criteria is posted in the help an on meta.SE
 
@Braiam for how long, though?
 
But let's allow them. I'm not exactly short on delvotes anyways (but I'm a 10k and not super-active)
 
If you know it will be rommbaed then you can leave it otherwise I don't think it would harm anyone if a del-pls is posted
 
@JanDvorak Except the roomba also takes into account some less-visible things, and as Braiam says the roomba can be broken.
 
@TylerH 2-3 weeks, I think (cc @Tunaki )
 
9:48 PM
I think maybe should be restricted to non-20k votes
 
@TylerH lol, yeah I had to edit
 
@NathanOliver Yeah, but I've seen that be wrong before. Sometimes the roomba just breaks.
 
@Braiam Roomba has lots of problems and doesn't work correctly, but it shouldn't influence the ruling here
 
Most of the delete votes I see in the room are for stuff that was closed 30 minutes ago
like, it's not really necessary to delete them
at least not immediately
 
Yeah but it breaking doesn't mean we do not know if it will reroomba'd or not. It gets caught once they fix it again
 
9:49 PM
And seriously, it's not feasible to expect people to either (a) install a userscript, or (b) evaluate a dozen criteria by hand.
 
I think that common sense apply: does it needs to be deleted NAO?
That's the only rule you need to apply
 
I don't see anything wrong with allowing them. It might be a "waste" for those people to use their votes on something that would be deleted anyways, but so far there has been no abuse from it.
 
user4639281
I think... meh...
 
@Braiam I thought we established that "common sense" is not applicable because it means something different to everyone
 
@Undo There's a lot of rules, but only RemoveAbandonedClosed is really relevant to this.
 
9:49 PM
@TylerH that's why mine has adverb ;)
 
I'm on the meh side of things.
 
I'm straddling the fence between "meh" and "disallow" and it's not very comfortable.
 
> Automatic deletion of closed, abandoned questions for questions meeting the following criteria:
> Closed more than 9 days ago
> Not closed as a duplicate
> Score <= 0
> Not locked
> No answers with a score > 0
> No accepted answer
> No pending reopen votes
> No edits in the past 9 days
 
Conclusion: meh
 
^ This is a lot of criteria.
 
9:50 PM
Anyway I do not mind [del-pls] even if it is roomba eligible. If you want to spend the vote then go for it. I just like to let people know they really don't need to.
 
And as Braiam said, the only thing that should matter is "should this be deleted right now"
 
@Undo pending changes... (looking at you "No accepted answers")
 
@Undo it's really just "not a dupe, inactive for 9 days, non-positive score, no useful answers"
 
user4639281
right meow
 
@gunr2171 If it's not roomba-egligible, the criterion is "should it be deleted anytime soon?"
 
9:51 PM
Question: what harm do these requests do to the room (not to individual users) if they're allowed?
 
@ArtOfCode nailed it.
 
I don't think any harm
 
Good point
 
9 secs ago, by gunr2171
I don't think any harm
case closed. Let's move on.
 
@ArtOfCode the risk is meta might think we are delete/moderation happy... so, in other words, nothing new
 
9:52 PM
If there is none... what's the problem with allowing them? Let users make their own decision about spending the delete vote.
 
oh no, I'm out of stars
 
They might deplete users' delvotes.
 
@Undo careful with the chilling effect
 
@JanDvorak that's about individuals, not about the room. Individuals are capable of making their own choices.
 
Agreed, moving on
 
9:52 PM
If the users knows that the question will be rommba'd he still can decide for himself if he wants to send a del-pls or not.
 
ok, well we'll say "we will allow it because it does not cause any harm to the room and people should still be following the same logic for any other delete request"
This room was placed in timeout for 1 minute; topic 7
> We already have the rule that it is "OK to disagree" bit that is more geared towards our normal operation, not to the general chatter. Given the concern raised by Shog9 in his post, do we need extra guidance on how to keep all our off-topic discussions under control?
(this is the last topic we'll be able to get to today)
 
user4639281
All discussions should be respectful and professional, regardless of topic. Too much of any off-topic discussion is bad.
 
No, heck no. It's hard enough to enforce at the network level, we can't think about enforcing it at a room level.
 
@gunr2171 I think, at the request of any RO, we should stop discussion of a given topic or move it elsewhere.
 
Table rules: do not talk about politics, religion, sexuality, etc.
 
9:55 PM
Be Nice applies in the room, and any off-topic discussion that is too lengthy should be moved. if you want to do that disagree or debate thing, go into your own room.
 
I haven't noticed any super-heated political debate in this room.
 
I haven't been around for a long time, but I can't remember any discussion (on- or off-topic) in SOCVR spiralling out of control.
 
@JanDvorak that's because everyone in the SOCVR Team is super-cool 8-)
 
@JanDvorak me neither...
 
@TylerH I agree on that
 
9:55 PM
Question: why is it necessary to have policies that detailed? The network as a whole has policies that control discussion (Be Nice); what necessitates having any more?
 
I think the nearest was brexit
 
@Glorfindel there have been some involving gender neutrality
 
@rene #powergrab
 
TL has had far more heated political discussions than SOCVR ever has, and they've been some of the most enlightening discussions I've been part of.
 
@Braiam that was a topic considered for the last room meeting; we decided against bans like that.
 
9:56 PM
@ArtOfCode because we are a microcosm
 
@NobodyNada because?
 
@Undo TL is a touch different, to be fair.
 
not only are we a microcosm, we are a themed microcosm. We will naturally have rules that are more specific and conditional
 
@ArtOfCode Not much, really. This room is entirely capable of that level of civility.
 
9:56 PM
I'm all for allowing heated discussions, even if in a separate room, tbh
 
because, let's be honest, "Be nice" doesn't really "control" a discussion
 
Discussions shouldn't be controlled; they should be corralled.
 
As with all discussions that don't fall into the "you shouldn't talk about this", I vote to deal with these things on a case-by-case basis. RO's have historically done a pretty good job of telling people to move on.. no reason to think they wouldn't continue to.
 
Rules don't control discussions. Kicks do.
 
@Undo Only if I get to call you cowboy
 
9:57 PM
Deal
 
And anyway, if anything gets lengthy, move it to the Ministry. We can handle anything in there, just boot up Hatman and let him join the debate.
 
"We're special flowers" doesn't apply to everything. Yes, the room has a topic; yes, it's necessary to have some extra policies, about that topic. If your room scope doesn't affect network-wide policies, like Be Nice, then there is as far as I'm concerned no reason to modify them.
 
What have flowers to do with it?
 
@NobodyNada if that's the case, I don't think we need to do anything: be respectful and aware that others might disagree with you, and that's fine
 
@rene snowflakes have met their mention quota this week
 
9:58 PM
Flowers with determination are inherently evil
 
@ArtOfCode I don't think this rule would "modify" Be Nice, but rather work in addition to it
 
@rene If that's a serious question, there is some certain stigma associated with that phrase in American politics.
 
I'm not saying we need a rule on the books about certain subjects, though
 
9:58 PM
@LynnCrumbling right. We do keep an eye on conversations, and we're fine with off-topic stuff now an again. but as soon as it looks like people are exchanging strong worded messages through their monitors then we move on. That has been working fine for a while.
 
@TylerH semantics. modify/add to/remove from, all the same thing.
 
@gunr2171 The current government is doing a fine job :)
 
And OneBoxes are right out, unless proceeding on to inline the onebox as a normal link
"One, Two, OneBox" "Inline, Sir!" "Inline!"
 
@LynnCrumbling BLAME THE GOVERNMENT!
 
Bonus star to anyone who gets that reference...
 
9:59 PM
@gunr2171 "that has been working fine for a while" -- This is it, precisely. You have a solution that works. Why is it at all necessary to change it?
 

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