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1:44 AM
@mbq I'm with you. R has pretty rocking pipes support (as just one of many Connection types).
 
 
12 hours later…
1:59 PM
Clearly I need to understand pipes. So much to grok, so little time.
Fwiw, stackoverflow chat works well from the iPhone. Even on the Metra north line.
 
2:21 PM
What's the appropriate way to handle user425895 (Juan Pide)?
I assume firing squad is too harsh...
Can we close as duplicate and link to his R-help question?
 
@JoshuaUlrich Yes, I was wondering about that meta-question too. Some people just want to abuse free resources.
 
2:36 PM
@DirkEddelbuettel I should change my answer to be wrong and malicious. Something like, "press Alt+F4 repeatedly"
"it adds another zero every time you press it..."
 
@JDLong At least that's funny
 
yeah when I read it I laughed so hard I blew a mouthful of dirt across my keyboard
 
3:17 PM
@JDLong Good, you're here. I just wanted to let you know that despite the fact that I closed your question on where to discuss R as "off-topic", this is still the place.
 
you're cool Bill. It didn't ruffle my feathers as much as it seemed to ruffle others. I just wanted to help fly the flag of this service and it served that purpose.
not to sound too much like Alexis de Tocqueville, but I am happy that sometimes the community disagrees yet things get hammered out and the system works. I'm a huge fan of emergent order. Even if sometimes it's not the order I would have chosen had I been elected benevolent dictator.
 
@JDLong Well, the question was a little bit too "meta" for Stack Overflow and got flagged. I was going to migrate it, but it's hard to categorize. It's not really about programming, but it is about where to talk about programming.
 
yeah, I grok the issue. I just want R users to use Stack Overflow. It's my troll crusade ;)
I have little troll banners and everything. Very charming actually.
 
Cool. I don't know how persistent the rooms are, but I followed a link from yesterday to get here. I think you should be able to just link people directly to here to have discussions. Have fun.
 
mbq
3:32 PM
@JDLong That will be brutally cut with the useR flow to stats.SE (-;
 
I see a roll for both, actually. But the community will decide.
@mbq If the parade marches over to stats.SE then I will take my banner and run over there too. Right now it seems like stats.SE makes sense for specific statistic issues (e.g what does my p value mean in this R routine?) and Stack Overflow makes more sense for programming issues related to R: (e.g. how do I make this code faster in R?)
 
mbq
@JDLong That would be good; along with stuff like "How to install R?" on SuperUser.
 
@mbq sure! makes sense. I probably would have slammed that into SO, but I think SU makes more sense.
 
@mbq Easy sudo apt-get install r-base and just shun all OSs thar don't do apt et al.
... which I just had to point out to a poor soul on the rpy list who got lost trying to self-compile R and rpy2 on Ubuntu.
 
mbq
@DirkEddelbuettel No, sudo yum install R
 
3:44 PM
tst tst tst
but clearly superior to 'configure; make; make install' as R benefits from quite a few toggles to configure, needs libs, can get tweaks in the package etc pp
 
mbq
Yup. But I once tried to compile it on NAS (ipkg install R returned error)
I stopped when it come to compiling f77.
 
4:42 PM
@Shane I just built an S3 bucket from R using boto and rJython. I'm running down to Wacker to do a happy dance in the middle of the street. I take joy in the small victories.
 
Awesome!
So rJython worked for you?
Are you going to release this as a package?
 
rJython <- rJython( modules = "boto")
rJython$exec( "import boto" )
rJython$exec( "conn = boto.connect_s3()" )
rJython$exec( "bucket = conn.create_bucket('hell_yeah_unicorns')" )
 
That's fantastic.
 
I'm going to try and entice a friend to wrap a subset of Boto in an R package so we can use it easier in R
He needs his resume built... I need the functionality. That market should clear
 
Ha
Then you will have doBoto from foreach?
 
4:53 PM
well that's not exactly the use case... I have a prototype of emrlappy which uses the EMR service
and Boto will let me get rid of the ugly ass system() calls I use in there
I have to use one package for EMR and another for S3
 
Ah ha.
Does it get rid of all those shell scripts that you were sending as well?
(some vague recollection of that...)
 
yeah, it solves some of that
I still have to build some shell scripts to send up to Amazon to load on the worker nodes
i.e. EMR bootstrapping
 
Good stuff. Sounds like a R/Finance presentation in the works?
:)
 
yeah, I am thinking the same things
thing
 
I'm hoping to make it out there this year, although I don't have anything booked yet.
Need to get my affairs in order, first.
 
4:57 PM
multiple affairs? I didn't know you were French
 
BTW. Is Romain talking at your meetup tonight?
 
speaking of the French... yes!
 
Wow. That's a nice meetup you have going there!
 
and Jay Emerson
all star cast tonight
 
Jay spoke at our NY one twice, but I haven't seen Romain yet...
Jay's a great speaker.
 
4:58 PM
he seems like he would be. I've never heard him present but I have had beers with him
 
Are you recording it?
 
I hope to. First order of biz at the meetup is to get someone to take over responsibility for editing the video files. I have not edited the files from last month
I just have zero interest in processing video and it feels like a chore. But I do think getting the vids out is good
fuck. I forgot my tripod at home
gonzo shakie cam tonight I guess
 
Fun times. Looking forward to getting sea sick as I watch it.
Well, I would propose that you post the raw videos rather than nothing at all.
 
yeah, good point
i hear community editing is the future
 
I make the same mistake on blogging, etc.
Oh wow...that would be a nice thing to have.
 
5:02 PM
yeah, better to throw up some crap than nothing at all
 
yeah, dry heaves are the worst
 
That's what your mom said.
(that's the last time I'm using that...)
 
well I could post link to download whole video and then ask folks to grab it and edit it then post blog comments with links to edited versions
 
actually, she did... you're good.
 
Ok...I have to go wash my mouth out with soap now.
 
5:03 PM
that's what your mom said
and that is NOT the last time I'm using that
 
@JoshuaUlrich Are you going to the Chicago meetup?
 
Sorry I can't make it tonight JD. I have a hockey game at 10:30... and I'm running low on vacation days.
@Shane see above
 
we'll take a rain check
btw, the first rule of Chicago R meetup is "if you come in from more than 100 miles away you MUST present"
 
What about @DirkEddelbuettel? Surely he will come to hear his Rcpp collaborator?
 
@JDLong even if you don't have anything worthwhile to say?
 
5:06 PM
What's the second rule?
 
@Shane Yeah, Dirk will surely be there.
 
especially if you don't have anything worthwhile to say
 
oh snap
the second rule of Chicago R meetup is, "there is not Chicago R meetup"
s/not/no
 
the second rule is, @jdlong always ensures he buys more beers than are bought for him. Thus the high attendance
 
Does @JDLong refer to himself that way in normal conversation?
 
5:08 PM
@jdlong is listening to you but pretending not to
just a little something I got from Bob Dole
 
@Shane How is the webvis stuff coming?
@JDLong Good thing you didn't also get his attachment to pens...
 
@JoshuaUlrich It's not, really. I'm not overly motivated by it right now. Was hoping that Jeff would come along and do some work on it, then I'd be a little more excited about it. Just need to sit down and spend a few hours on it. But would rather spend the time on the shark machine learning package...
I hit a road block in that I want to parse the javascript from within R and get the SVG image back (code.google.com/p/rjscript). It's easy to do, but just a bit of a pain. Especially because javax.script.* doesn't do it properly, so then I have to use something different (rhino).
Plus, I had a baby. That tends to eliminate free time.
 
Jeff's in a similar boat (new baby)
Congratulations, by the way
 
Thanks! It's great, but definitely a lot of work.
 
5:27 PM
@Shane you got a new baby too?
 
Yep, back in May. (zzzzzz...)
 
@Shane Did you see that post from a student of DTL talking about bidirectional R in a browser and all that?
The man from France stays at my house so in that sense I have to show up and escort him home. See reference above about JD and drinks.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel Not sure which post you're referring to. Somewhat out of the loop right now (way behind on my google reader, etc.).
Is Romain visiting you? Are you both off to CA after that?
 
Yes and yes.
 
Wow. Very jealous. Enjoy CA, and give our regards to John Chambers if you see him!
 
5:37 PM
@Shane May have been on r-devel. I'll try to find it.
 
Ah...yes, all the r mailing lists are currently filtered past my inbox because I can't even keep up with regular at the moment.
 
There: r-devel, Fri 15 Oct 08:06:01 'Scripting SVG with R'. I'll fwd to you.
 
Oh
Ok, thanks.
I know that Duncan has an R/javascript package, but it's pretty unfinished.
I wonder if that's what it's about.
I'll have a read...
Looks like it's related. Duncan seems to have his hands in everything.
I'll respond to it. Thanks for forwarding.
 
And sadly rarely finished things to 'production'. Tony Rossini taught me about 'BOINJ' years ago when I was contemplating packaging RSPerl and RSPython for Debian.
So does anybody know what BOINJ stands for?
 
No clue.
 
5:42 PM
i got nuttin
 
"Builds on in New Jersey" (when DTL was still at Bell Labs). His code is guaranteed to work on ... his computer. For the rest, you're on your own.
 
That is amazing.
 
ha... that makes sense
 
Sorry -- Builds only in NJ
XML and a few packages that have escaped to CRAN are good. But he must have a hundred started and not quite there packages on omegahat. He is pure genius.
 
yeah I looked at his Amazon S3 code... it had a lot of functionality but would randomly hang. And beyond my skill level to really help much
that's how I got interested in taking someone's tested Python code and just wrapping it.. consistent with my skill level
DTL at UC Davis now?
 
6:01 PM
Yup. So 'BOIOC' for Orange County :-)
 
US Davis is a highly respected school for agricultural. I hope his presence there will spawn more R usage in ag. SAS started as a tool for research agriculture so it has a long standing tight grip in the space.
 
6:58 PM
I'm giving a small talk at my Alma mater tomorrow about why I use R even though no one makes me. Any tips about how I may better indoctrinate the attendees?
 
Mention the groupies.
 
and beer
 
Yes, yes, aside from the fame and drugs...
 
so where did you get your schooling?
 
7:02 PM
cool. for the presentation I'd focus on what your "pain points" were and why you started using R
#1 for me is the ability to read and reproduce R code which I could not do with a spreadsheet
#2 ability to take my tool suite with me when I change jobs
 
#1 The economist I worked for at the Fed used Gauss and SAS. I didn't have several thousand dollars per year to use either of those on my own time.
 
yeah, that basically rhymes with my #2
that's a big one for me
 
#2 I needed to do stuff that was just hard to do in Excel.
 
I can quickly build, deploy, and kick ass before accounting and IT figures out that I'm not using a stack of tools provided to me by the company
 
I agree. It also means that you can install it as much as you want without needing to worry about licensing.
 
7:06 PM
once ass is being kicked no one, in my experience, is going to say "stop kicking ass and change tools"
 
I've never used SAS, but I've heard that (a) R's visualization is better and (2) R's code is better.
 
when I was 20 I never would have guessed how important it is to not have to ask permission to buy tools
 
@JDLong especially if the tools being used are free.
"Stop being productive with free stuff so we can spend $100k/year for you to be less productive."
 
It's easy to make an argument for R over lower level languages like Java, etc.
 
@Shane Especially to economics and biology students.
 
7:08 PM
@JoshuaUlrich exactly... no one says that. One time I did get a little push back and I replied "well I am fast with R, and it is free, so I'll prototype in R and then if you guys want you can later pay to have it ported to something else" As far as I know, the R code is still in production ;)
 
If they are bored, non-empirical lazy-bums there won't be any appeal. If they're not -- well I always come back 'Programming with Data'. You just can't do it this way in any other system I know.
I am thinking about opening on Friday with a five-liner Greg Snow posted on r-help a few weeks back: uses faithful (running jokes about same data sets....), does density, then uses replicate for 10,000 such densities and plots a polygon (Hello, JD!) with 5 and 95 percent confidence around the density estimate.
Show me a system that does in five lines and I switch.
 
density plots FTW!
 
@Shane R's visualization is certainly easier. I got to look at some of the SAS code use to generate graphs in a particular Fed publication. It was ~50 lines of code per graph.
And SAS is entirely procedural. It can be painful.
 
Just tell them that @JDLong is using it.
That should win them over.
 
obviously.
 
7:19 PM
That's what your mom said.
 
Now you're taking the baton. Very good.
 
It's slightly scary that I think this is being indexed by Google...
 
and given how fast the indexing works on stackoverflow It's probably been returned in results already
 
@DirkEddelbuettel Is this what you're talking about? mail-archive.com/r-help@r-project.org/msg108560.html
 
Yup. And I lied. Seven lines. Sue me.
 
7:24 PM
I'm sure that you can compress it further.
 
If you have shinier examples... lemme know. In the finest Jeff Ryan traditions we have have a 90 min presentation ahead of us and no slides yet.
 
What's the presentation?
 
you have a 3 hour plane ride. And in my experience they will only server you about 4 beers. so you have tons of time
 
Google Tech Talk on Rcpp, RInside and RProtoBuf which, believe it or not, they use.
 
Believe it or not?
Oh, I believe.
That's awesome.
 
7:26 PM
very cool... going to be recored as one of their Tech talks?
 
On a completely unrelated note, I love it when I get accepted on an answer that I know absolutely nothing about (e.g stats.stackexchange.com/questions/3759/…). Self-organizing fuzzy neural networks?
 
Yes, we were quite flattered, so we started talking to the (nice!) Googler who came to useR and so this talk came about. John will be there too and we probably get some time to talk object models with him on Sat.
 
Wow. That sounds like an awesome weekend ahead of you.
 
I have already joked that I will try to stay out of the way when the grown-up talk :)
@JDLong Yup!
 
Is this part of the google summer of code trip too?
 
7:29 PM
Bingo.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel that's very high on the Kick ass scale
 
I've been to the google campus there. It's very nice. Enjoy the good eats!
 
That's the budget we "overloaded" to cover flights.
 
I'll tell Jerome Coste to introduce himself to you, if you don't already know him. He was in Chicago at GOOG then relocated to Mountain View
 
Do not. According to a CC of an email there we are invited by the 'intergrouplet' concerned with R or some such. Never heard the word before, but then I don
t have petabytes of corpi either :)
I meant "do not know him" so please do give him a heads-up
 
7:32 PM
what day will you be presenting?
 
Jumping in a little late (and hesitantly): I'm not sure that a polished but incomprehensible 7-line code diamond will motivate people who are scared of code. Who is going to be in the audience? Short code snippets that make some sense (or that you can explain in a few minutes) and do cool stuff will be good though -- one of the reasons that all the Hadley Wickham stuff is so nice.
 
@BenBolker yeah, that's kinda why I like the "pain points".. here's what sucked... here's how I solved it with R
 
Friday, 2pm to 3:30pm
(hi ben) Is it incomprehensible? But what would an xls look like that did the same?
 
@DirkEddelbuettel I emailed Jerome and told him to get his butt down and meet you ;)
 
It's definitely clearer than something like Q or J.
Anyway, these are Googlers...I'm sure they have seen some of this stuff before...
 
7:36 PM
@DirkEddelbuettel I think it's not incomprehensible, but might likely be something students just don't give a shit about.... not sure that's materially different than incomprehensible
@Shane wait.. there are two presentations being discussed: dirk at goog and Josh at UMSL
 
Oh right. Now I'm so confused.
 
I was assuming we were talking about the UMSL one
 
but that's why I prefixed with 'If they are bored, non-empirical lazy-bums' ...
 
I thought that Dirk was going to open with that example?
I think that it's a good one, personally...
 
@JDLong Sort of. I think I'll use it was suggesting Josh do something similar / better (so that I can shamelessly borrow it).
 
7:38 PM
@DirkEddelbuettel yes yes, fair disclaimer. But if the example included titties and beer the attention of the group goes way up. Even for the lazy bums.
@DirkEddelbuettel good artists borrow, great artists steal, I think ;)
 
@DirkEddelbuettel I think the main problem with it is that it doesn't use plyr or ggplot.
 
BWAH!
 
@user479786 Do us a favor and change your name to be something "human"?
 
8:07 PM
@mbq You don't have any more information than I do about when stats.SE is going out of beta, do you?
 
mbq
Nah; come to chat cast and ask Robert if you wish, but it seems we are waiting for Jin to make the design.
He just finished GameDev, so only Photo is left before us.
 
8:26 PM
xx <- faithful$eruptions
fit1 <- density(xx)

bootfun <- function() {
x <- sample(xx, replace=TRUE)
density(x, from=min(fit1$x), to=max(fit1$x))$y
}

fit2 <- replicate(10000, bootfun() )

## magic 1: apply() returns a 2xn matrix, we want an nx2 matrix
fit3 <- t(apply(fit2, 1, quantile, c(0.025,0.975) ))

library(ggplot2)
## magic 2: have to extract information from fit1 and fit3 differently
## (fit1 is a list, fit3 is a matrix)
d <- data.frame(x=fit1$x,y=fit1$y,lo=fit3[,"2.5%"],hi=fit3[,"97.5%"])
oops. meant to comment on that but just pasted it by accident.
I actually expanded it a little bit, but I think it's "less magic" now -- only two places where I think you need specialized R knowledge to know why it's done in a particular way. And it uses ggplot
 
I think I had a little bootfun() last time I was in Texas
magic #2 still causes me to rub my eyes a bit
 
@JDLong: urgh. Actually, I think if you don't bother to use t() on fit3, you could change the data.frame call to get rows instead of columns (fit3["2.5%",] etc.) and claim that there is only one piece of magic here (knowing that fit3 comes back as a 2xn matrix). Previously I tried data.frame(x=fit1$x,y=fit1$y,fit3) which works and is a little more compact, but involves another piece of magic -- either you put check.names=FALSE in or the % signs in the quantile names turn into periods.
 
you did a good job... my eye rubbing is totally a function of my skills, or lack thereof
 
mbq
@BenBolker Also selecting columns is a bit more effective, especially for data.frames.
 
@mbq: what? can you expand on that?
 
8:38 PM
@JDLong Romain just sat down here and is busy preparing slides. 5:30pm at Jak's it is? Real start at 6pm?
 
mbq
@BenBolker This is about how R places things in memory -- matrices are stored by-column, and data.frames are even lists of pointers to each column as a separate chunk.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel Does Romain not already have 1000's of slides ready to go?
 
@mbq -- so you're talking about efficiency ? (I'm not used to thinking about computational efficiency of data access that much, ecologists don't often have gigundo data sets ...) In this case, though, apply() is going to return its results as a 2xn matrix (this is an aspect of apply() that still confuses me sometimes [it's clearly spelled out in ?apply, but my gut still wants it to be otherwise]).
It's not clear to me that transposing it so that you can refer to it column-wise, rather than just referring to the rows, is a win.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel yeah, that sounds about right.
 
mbq
@BenBolker No, you are right; transpose will also take time, a lot more than reading one row. In general, those are details only important when you deal with something huge.
 

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