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2:07 AM
51
A: What exactly is "artificial inflation of reputation", and where is the line?

Shog9First off, I gotta say that I really detest bounties. I hate that we have a bounty system, and generally-speaking I hate that people use it. All bounties are artificial rep inflation! But I also recognize that bounties are sort of a necessary evil, like gambling or usury: if folks are gonna do ...

 
I should also say that in this case I didn't have much of a problem with the intent (boosting up people who cared about cleaning up the site in order to give them privileges to do so). Even Raghav's good answer about a situation like this didn't seem to apply, as the recipients had sufficient experience with the site. It was the means that gave moderators pause, because we always instruct people to vote based on content, not the person behind it. The bounty system is an odd thing, though.
 
user4639281
So, if I understand this correct, it is only fraud if the the moderator can prove that the "sole purpose was transferring reputation". And the only way that I can figure which they can prove that is if the user came out and said that was the sole purpose, as is the case with the most recent of this user's bounties. Am I understanding this correctly?
 
@TinyGiant: We give the moderators what in legal circles would be called "wide latitude" to make decisions in cases like this. There's no rule that can make this a black-and-white situation without making other uses of the bounty system less clear. The key phrase to take from this answer is "I trust that the elected moderators on Stack Overflow". This is exactly the sort of edge case that prompted the human exception handler position in the first place.
 
user177800
For the record: There has been no dishonestly here by anyone, period. No matter what anyone else says, and I know because the only person that can be even remotely accused of doing something wrong is me. And it is all out in the open for everyone to see. The only dishonesty is in the detractors that claim they were nice when they were not and deleted the evidence that they were less than nice which is what started all this.
 
user177800
I posted bounties that specifically stated Reward Existing Answer. How can that not be anymore up-front and honest. What this entire fiasco that @Qix started has proven is if I had not been honest there would have been no action taken. Because there would not be any actionable intent. So good to know, and knowing is half the battle, be opaque and in the shadows and there is no actionable evidence.
 
2:07 AM
So you're saying that trading rep for money via bounties is legit as long as we say so using a custom bounty reason?
 
I'm saying it's not fraud if you're upfront about what you're doing, @Peter. It may be objectionable for other reasons, of course.
 
user4639281
So... in this case it wasn't fraud then @Shog? As Jarrod was up front about what he was doing.
 
I haven't seen any evidence of it, @Tiny, and nothing Jarrod's said here would indicate otherwise. I would recommend being patient for the moderators involved to finish examining the situation - likely this is a tempest in a teapot.
 
A hard line in the sand never works. You will always have twits dancing on one side of the line when the sum total of their behaviour should have long since gotten them turfed. As for fraud only being done in the shadows... that's a very flawed definition of fraud.
 
Misdirection is a favorite technique of fraudsters, @user4581301. But this is getting very tangential.
 
2:07 AM
"First off, I gotta say that I really detest bounties. I hate that we have a bounty system, and generally-speaking I hate that people use it." First when reading this I thought that I disagree - having made only positive experience with bounties, but after reading the whole answer I kind of understand why anyone would hate them. My solution: Restrict the usage of bounties (like at max 500 rep per month) or so. That way you can still have the positive effects while limiting the exploits more who probably are only efficient when spending rep at a high rate.
"if there's enough evidence for them to be reasonably confident that the bounty is fraudulent, they'll revoke it " This is probably the weakest part of the whole answer. It sounds like maging. Moderators need to know a way of getting this evidence. I doubt they have enough ways for this. It will be extremely hard to ever be reasonably confident about this kind of fraud.
 
So the automated script that reveals targeted voting looks at a number of upvotes from one user to another in a time period. I have an idea what the number is and I know you know what it is. It would take a very long time to not trigger that while at the same time upvoting one user. A possible way to bypass this process is through bounties. Perhaps 1 bounty is not even worth discussing. Or even 2. However, at what point is it worth discussing? I think this is the current topic and I don't see you addressing that point here.
Currently, what we are examining is 6 bounties, clearly directed at three users, for a total of (900+900+1000) 2800 reputation or 280 upvotes. I feel like 280 upvotes worth of reputation would have very quickly been picked up by the automated script that runs. The counter argument by some to this seems to be that it was all up front. If someone is explicit in saying that they are the one upvoting another user, does that mean they should bypass the automated voting system? Is that the same with downvotes?
To quote the title of this question, where is the line? Or conversely, since this was done through the bounty system, is this even an issue?
 
@TravisJ bounties are not votes. Ok, strictly-speaking, they're represented internally as votes... But not upvotes or downvotes. Crucially, they do not affect the score of the posts they're attached to.
Also, this is pretty tangential to your question.
 
 
20 hours later…
10:13 PM
@Shog9 - So the outlook here is that awarding bounties to users, even in the sum of thousands of reputation, is fair game because it is a 0 sum and doesn't effect post score?
 
10:34 PM
@TravisJ the outlook is that it isn't voting, which eliminates one class of problem. There are still other potential issues, some common to serial voting and some unique to bounties.
 
Does that mean this type of scenario isn't of concern? I am not sure weather I should be looking for this or just ignoring it.
 
@TravisJ why on earth would it mean that?
The two big concerns would be:
1. accelerated access to privileges
2. skewed exposure to views (via featured lists, hot lists, etc)
 
I agree.
 
Both of those have come up many times before in meta discussions, going back to the early days of Stack Overflow.
 
I got the impression it wasn't of concern from the way that it seemed to go forward without issue aside from this post.
The bounties were still formalized, for example.
 
10:37 PM
@TravisJ a lot of things are concerning but don't generate a lot of talk until they actually cause concrete problems.
 
Okay, so while this was a concern, assuming it doesn't continue it hasn't caused any actual problems?
 
For example, earning rep via trivial edits is a concern, but it's not until someone starts abusing that route to troll chat that folks get really upset over it.
 
Alright, I think I understand your viewpoint more now. Thanks for the responses :)
 
@TravisJ "this" meaning Jarrod's bounties in particular? Or bounties in general.
 
This, meaning the issuance of the six bounties from Jarrod, yes.
 
10:40 PM
ok. I'm not aware of any concrete problems beyond one question that was blocked from closure (which... has been discussed to death at this point)
 
Ah, I wasn't concerned about the closure. The problem that I had observed was the issuance of 3 bounties at once from one user to another. This occurred three times in a row. And all 4 users were part of the same chat room. That was what raised flags to me.
But aside from the reputation increase associated with the bounties, I didn't see any concrete problems caused.
It was the reputation increase itself that seemed targeted and to sort of bypass convention. However, as you had indicated earlier with your reputation from edit example, unless there was damage incurred from the increased reputation of the beneficiary, then there is no actual problem aside from it being concerning in general?
 
10:54 PM
@TravisJ right, so... This is where you look back and try to identify patterns that lead to problems. A lot of the weirdness and complexity with bounty rules today is because of problems caused in the past.
If, for example, someone decided that they'd really like to have an army of people with 500 rep, and went ahead and made one... And then went off and abused some privilege available to folks with 500 rep... That'd be a problem.
Now, in practice that'd take a significant amount of time to set up (because of existing restrictions placed on bounties for just such a reason...) and once detected we'd just destroy all the socks and laugh at someone for throwing away a ton of rep and then suspend them.
But if this person were slightly more savvy and decided, for instance based on a meta discussion, that the way around this was to avoid using sockpuppets, opting instead to just try to buy influence with the bounties...
...We'd still have a problem, and their careful parsing of rules with regard to rep transfer and bounties would do them no good.
Not that it'd stop them from trying to argue with us all day and all night about how we were ignoring our own rules.
 
I suppose time will tell :)
 
So we'd encourage them to go to meta and make an impassioned argument to the community on Stack Overflow, making the case that they should totally be able to hire mercenaries via bounties.
 
lol
 
You can probably guess how that would end.
 
Yeah, I get what you are saying
So how do we find the mercenaries? :P
 
11:01 PM
to use a concrete example, it's usually been pretty obvious when someone decides to use spam-flags to destroy competing answers
as a general rule, we try to make enough stuff public that it's hard to hide your involvement
 
You mean to get the -2 effect?
 
@TravisJ that would be illustrative of the sort of restraint that might allow you to hide your activity. Rarely does someone willing to do this sort of thing possess such restraint
Enough flags will instantly delete the post, lock it, and impose a fairly large penalty on the author
This tends to get folks' attention though, and that's when your careful planning comes to naught.
 
Hopefully none of this reputation ends up being used negatively. Seeing as how attention was garnered here, although no plans interrupted, I am curious how it will play out going forward.
 
well, we'll see. And then deal with any problems that arise in whatever method is most expedient at the time.
 
There is definitely a precedence for being apt at handling problems from the team's end so I am not that concerned long term in general. It is the problems that no one notices which can be the most troublesome.
I think there isn't much more to discuss here though on this topic, although tangents are welcome :) Thanks for your time, I appreciate the responses.
 

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