last day (14 days later) » 

14:14
2
A: Any ideas why my question about programmatically finding details for a "certificate" object was closed?

tristanI don't agree that it should have been closed, but it was linked in the SO CVR chat room, and they've very close-vote happy. As I understand it, your question is "how do I tell which intermediate cert signed my X509Certificate2 in my C# code", which is pretty specific. I voted to re-open. edi...

@sharptooth We're trying to get away from that. But usually, we see this kind of question from >10 rep users who joined 20 minutes ago, not from established veteran users. Thats why it was some additional source for discussion. As I said before with your rewording the question is cleaner and more specific now. Its also worth noting that I didn't downvote you.
We are throwing many accusations here. Users are asked to read the questions and if they are not convinced to expose their cases. I've disagreed with some closures and gave specific reasons why it shouldn't be closed.
That beeing said, most of the times (about 9/10 cases or so) when someone links a cv-pls, it really is just tosh. There is a flood of tosh there sadly. But when its not closeable, we generally don't close. And we will reopen if the question is made sufficiently better (this case) or if an honest mistake was at play. You are assuming we're some tyrannical voting ring, we're not.
As one of the long standing room owners of the SOCVR I do understand that our room might be perceived as a nasty evil voting mob. It is hard to fight such misconceptions but I can assure you that our FAQ is clear about the rules to be followed by our regulars and our room moderation is focused on those rules. We do take re-open requests serious (as you can see from our transcript). If needed we are happy to come forward on meta and rectify moderation we have done in error.
@poke: To be fair, it is called [cv-pls] ;)
user559633
14:14
A room centered around close votes and close vote queues is going to be more focused in its behavior than one that consists of subject matter experts.
@PetterFriberg I know that you are doing this with good intentions and I know how difficult it is to keep the site clean (or rather attempt to keep it clean). But all good intentions aside, that does not mean that some people will not see a cv-pls and assume that whatever close vote is pending there is the truth without thinking about it themselves. I’ve seen it often enough in the past. It may not apply to you and everyone else who is coming here now to defend the room’s case, but I still believe that it’s an actual issue (although not necessarily in this situation for OP’s question).
@rene, I have a question. You say that your room is not "a nasty evil voting mob" and that "it is hard to fight such misconceptions." I imagine that it is. What does your chat room offer by way of keeping the site clean that the closure queues do not already offer? I mean, if I want to help out and vote to close some questions, why should I join [cv-plz] rather than just clicking through the queue?
@CodyGray if you read our FAQ and specifically the part about the cv-pls requests, you see the unique use case for those. The room is also a place for general moderation discussion and feedback. We like to refine and discuss our moderation choices there. We also fast-flag spam regularly thanks to our trusty SmokeDetector bot.
user559633
@Magisch Almost no one reads FAQs or room rules. It's like the Star Wars extended universe -- people deeply invested in the topic know it exists, but for all intents and purposes, it doesn't count.
@PetterFriberg You seem to assume that I was never present in the room, or that I never had any experience with cv-pls. Neither is the case.
14:14
@tristan Speak for yourself. I and most other regulars in the room know the FAQ pretty well. It is after all a detailed description of the room rules. If someone joins, the FAQ is among the first things they are expected to read. It was the case for me.
Ugh, I read all of that and I don't see how it answers my question. I find two principal arguments: (1) having a posse improves morale, (2) "all members concentrate on a single tag at a time [to achieve] a higher chance of completing the review tasks that we process." I don't understand that second one. You complete a review task by making a decision and acting (or not) on it. What does it matter if that's all done on the same tag or not? Oh, and there are bots. Which I totally don't understand, but that's probably because I don't know anything about the chat thingadongdong.
user559633
@Magisch Not speaking for myself. I'm a RO in one of the more popular SO chat rooms. Just because you don't want to think of the room as a place that attracts close-votes to questions more aggressively than in subject-matter-specific rooms doesn't make that the case. When people don't read the SO-Python room rules, we know because of the room interactions. When the CV room users ignore your "rules", they do so out of the context of your chat room.
@tristan Ofcourse it does, the purpose of the room is moderation discussion and closing questions that deserve it quickly. Why shouldn't it be more focused on CVs?
@CodyGray if you're on your own close voting in the queue your vote might be lost, specially if you're in a low traffic tag. In our close vote events we focus on specific tags so we can clear out those questions from the queue (either by having them closed or having them leave open). During the day the cv-pls are raised for questions that our members feel need attention, for several reasons, for example attracting new bad answers, overly broad stuff, duplicates or new questions by new users that need extra guidance. I think we help in improving the content found on the site.
@Magisch tristan’s point is that while you like to think that everyone acts according to the rules in your FAQ, you have no way to control that. You don’t even get feedback because the feedback happens outside of the chat room without you seeing what users did. So you don’t know if that random user who just saw a cv-pls and voted to close a question read the FAQ before or not—and even less if they acted according to the FAQ or not.
14:14
@poke That may be true. But as a room we can only effect pressure or guidance on the regulars. The point is a cv-pls gets more attention onto a question and if that question is bad and/or closeworthy that often translates into votes. What is your problem with that? That some people could possibly not think or read properly before voting? Im sure that never happens anywhere else on here....
@poke but once the question is closed it is clear who voted and can be held responsible for their actions.And if the moderators expect organized down voting they visit our room and our transcript as well as our CV Request Graveyard so everybody can verify what happened. The fact that I don't control users is not a problem of the SOCVR room, that happens with every chatroom where a comment, question or answer is linked, We honestly try to be transparent within our capabilities.
@Magisch It was you who was arguing before that since you have a FAQ with rules you wouldn’t have a problem with users not knowing your rules… I’m glad that you agree with us now that that mean anything.
@poke Our regular users know the rules. We're not responsible and our scope of scrutinizing to that effect doesn't extend beyond that.
@Magisch Now please start reading at the top of the comments again. It is not about you those who care, those who read the rules, those who actually evaluate a close vote on their own. It’s about the other ones who are attracted by the cv-pls practice.
I think you guys should continue this within SOCVR since it's becoming more about room policies and less about the question at hand.
user559633
14:14
@BoltClock in deleting Poke and my comments from this thread, you've completely destroyed the context. Why would you do that?
@tristan I deleted comments because there were flags. Take the conversation about the policies, etc to chat - they've gone away from this particular question to socvr stuff.
@tristan maybe we should both take BoltClock's and bluefeets advice and continue this discussion in a chatroom where you and Poke can start with your initial comments. I'm happy to add mine as well.
user559633
@bluefeet Just because there's flags -- and I'd guess these are from the same few users acting in defense of the close-vote conveyor belt system -- doesn't mean that they don't have value to the conversation on meta. Disagreement isn't the same thing as something being offensive. This is a meta discussion and I don't see the SO CVR room, the suitability of existence being the point of this long comment thread, being an appropriate place for this to be discussed.
@bluefeet The problem stays that the original comments are gone which is altering the whole discussion. That is the problem I have. There are two choices: Keep the comments, or delete them all. Deleting some only changes the way others will read that comment thread.
@tristan These are again some pretty harsh accusations you are making here. Why do you think it was people from our room that flagged your comments, and more importantly, why do you feel the need to make this accusation?
14:16
@poke Comments are transitory and there was not much that was really valid there when I deleted it. I'm really not going to argue with you about a couple of comments
user559633
@Magisch Oh gross, now it's in a chat room. SO chat rooms are were site-wide discussions go to die and get swept under the rug.
user559633
@Magisch I'd be interested in learning if my belief is inaccurate.
@tristan I've had that happen to me a couple of times. If you really care that much, why don't you make your own meta post.
And to answer that. I don't know. I didn't flag any.
user559633
@Magisch Because if I made my own meta post, we'd end up back here.
@bluefeet I do have a problem with this decision though, as you deliberately put responses out of context. Comments or not (btw. I don’t think comments on meta are considered in the same way as they are on the main site. On meta, the discussion happens in the comments).
14:18
I think @bluefeet 's point is that the discussion we were having is inappropiate on this specific question about a specific closed question
which is true
@bluefeet Please at least provide a screenshot with the deleted comments so we do have access to the context again.
the OP of the post where this comment chain is in is only about why a specific question was closed
if you want to start a full on debate on chatroom policies you will probably need your own meta for that
user559633
Who cares where the conversation lives if it's valuable to the site?
@Magisch The proper action would have been to delete everything then though. Selectively removing some is only causing harm.
Whatever: can we get this back on track
14:20
@poke but extended discussions shouldn't happen in comments...period. That's what chat is for
@poke I have delete my comments refereeing to your comments, as I agree comments without context does not have sense...
And ironically, the reasoning “there were flags” is very related to the whole cv-pls thing. I really hope mods don’t delete comments just because there are flags. (Not that I’m saying that you don’t add your own judgment, but it sounds like that)
I don't mind nor care about a few comments. Do you really think many people (as many people as you want to see it) partake in a discussion deep in the comment thread of a non-upvoted answer to a unrelated meta question?
You want people to talk about this, why bury it this deep?
user559633
Meta is for meta discussion of the site.
user559633
@Magisch You don't make that call.
14:21
@tristan You don't either. The mods do. And bluefeet did
user559633
The comment discussion was entirely in context of the question. Moving a portion of it over to chat just takes it out of context and turns into this pointless back and forth.
cc @poke ^^ those were the original ones deleted
user559633
@bluefeet And now that's not interleaved into the discussion.
We seem to be here because the SOCVR is an evil and useless bunch of users closing and voting and flagging stuff like 3 years old. Can we address that?
user559633
14:22
@rene That's not the case at all and stop trying to spin it into hyperbolic nonsense.
Ok, then what is the point?
@tristan Sounds alot like projection considering how many baseless accusations you managed to fit into a small comment chain
user559633
@Magisch Are you done yet?
Let the man talk @Magisch
We listen first
user559633
@rene That just because the SO CVR room believes that its FAQ prevents the created system from being a conveyor belt for people wanting to mash the close button doesn't make that so.
14:24
it is SOCVR
@tristan No, that is true. I don't have all regulars on a leash
But I don't recognize your mash the close button attitude you seem to perceive from the outside
user559633
@rene Not from the regulars or experienced users.
There must be something I overlook that you have evidence for?
user559633
I don't have any strong feelings about the SO CVR room -- I think it's generally useful. But I also think it's a feed for people that just received their new site-permission and want to use it.
user559633
That's all. I do have strong feelings about the selective deletion of comments from the thread on meta.
@tristan yeah that's how I'm currently using the room
I just hit 3k yesterday
14:28
@tristan Just a note that there're 5k, 10k or even 20k, 30k users in SOCVR.
And I don't really know some of the nuances of close-voting
user559633
@KevinGuan Yes, that's fine. Rep doesn't matter though. Or it does, but only insomuch as having the minimum amount to press the close button.
@tristan Then I think you better stop assuming things. I was the one who was asking about that Q, and yet I'm far from the "new site permissions".
before, my flags would be validated by others, so I didn't feel as much responsibility...
@tristan To be honest your answer on meta gave the impression you so have strong feelings about the socvr. Is that my misunderstanding/interpretation of the English language
user559633
14:29
@kayess I'm sorry, but I don't know where you fit into this discussion just yet and as I'm responding to multiple people, I'm going to disregard your comments for now.
user559633
@rene It's possible, but we're all more defensive over things that we care about.
@tristan So what matters? I think most of the reviewers in SOCVR knows how does Stack Overflow work more than other people on Stack Overflow.
@rene it's a bit passive-aggressive but I didn't interpret it as very critical of the room.
user559633
@ryanyuyu Yes, I think part of the issue with a close vote system is that while you're learning how to use it and getting your bearings on what should be closed, you are taking part in a system that doesn't have an immediate counter-measure. If you downvote a question, someone else can upvote it. If you vote close a question, it tends to stay closed as people can't "correct" it in real-time.
@tristan Yes, people want to use their privileges and with our regulars, high reps, meta followers and experience of declined flags, review bans we try to combine, share and educate both the users who want to moderate and the users we moderate.
user559633
14:31
@KevinGuan I think you mean "the regulars that I have in mind"
@ryanyuyu Ok, fair enough
@tristan yep. Pretty much why I started participating in SOCVR.
@tristan Could you please join SOCVR a day, and see how do we review posts?
user559633
@KevinGuan You're making the assumption that I haven't idled in there and watched.
user559633
brb
14:33
Anyone who cares about this, here’s the full thread, reconstructed. Thank you @bluefeet
@rene to be fair, it's hard to communicate with text only. Especially in a language as context sensitive as English. It can be very hard to interpret the spoken tone of text.
@tristan well, for that we have a bot that monitors the cv-pls posted so we can respond to questions that get edited so those do get a fair chance.
@ryanyuyu Sure, it is probably me but I defend my room users if they seem to be called out for something they might have done but there is no proof. I give to you that is about tone.
user559633
@rene It's not specific to your room.
It did say SOCVR
it didn't say Python
@poke Just for the record (its missing some of my comments, since refereed comment was delete I felt it was without context and deleted myself)
14:37
@rene I respect that. And as a potential frequenter of the room, I appreciate it as well. I feel like ~80% of the anger on the internet is over poor communication.
user559633
(Un)fortunately, reputation and internet-points on StackOverflow end up persuading user behavior. If you post a in SoPython or SOCVR and you're a higher rep user, people are going to click it and hit close.
Sure, but there are enough cases where we say Hmm, not sure about that cv-pls
And still, close voting is reversible
and in the post history
user559633
Not very. Closed questions tend to stay closed. Much like questions being voted down tend to attract a herd of downvotes.
Closed questions don't get edited
user559633
I don't believe the meta-question would have been closed for it not showing up in the SO CVR room. It's a specific "how do i do x in language?"
user559633
14:41
And as the permission to close a question is low rep, the actions of your regulars are functionally irrelevant.
@tristan I would have voted to close that question if I came across it in the review queue, Chat or not
user559633
If I'm coming to a point, that's it.
@tristan Similarly to how it wouldn’t be opened again if OP didn’t come to meta with it.
user559633
Exactly.
I stand by that in its first revision that question was tosh.
14:42
@tristan It took me over a year to amass 3k rep. I wouldn't call it "low" rep. At least for more recent SO users.
No amount of chat changed that
user559633
@ryanyuyu You can grind that out in a short amount of time with regex or css questions. And rep isn't the same thing as "knowing what you're doing."
@tristan If I have a problem with what you're saying here its almost exclsusively about the assumptions and accusations you make
Point is that reputation, regardless of how much, does not give an indication about how the user’s knowledge is about what questions should be closed and which shouldn’t.
You could make a good argument here, but it drowns in clutter
user559633
14:44
@Magisch I'm sorry that you feel that way, but the site has obvious user patterns and I've been a RO/regular long enough to know that vote mobbing comes with the territory of meta or SO chatrooms.
@Magisch Speaking of accusations:
in SO Close Vote Reviewers, 28 mins ago, by Magisch
One guy is arguing this room shouldnt exist and does more damage then harm
True, rep is a vague measure of community involvement. But I feel that overall the users who are interested in improving their moderation activities seek out SOCVR. Instead of just blindly voting without any community guidance.
@poke Thats exactly what @tristan's meta post reads like
You are overinterpreting comments about this incident because you are overprotective of your room.
what you call mobbing is actually increased attention, for better or worse
14:46
@poke not strictly true: chat.stackoverflow.com/… if Yam is running it picks up edits of cv-pls-ed questions
user559633
@ryanyuyu The difference between SOCVR and a domain-specific room is that the prior is focused on one workflow -- closing. A domain-specific room that came across that post is better equipped to know if the question is asking something incredibly common/in the language get-started tutorial/is actually kind of a "gotcha".
@Magisch we already sorted that out. Please stop trying to solve that.
@rene But if the OP of that question was someone else, it’s likely that he wouldn’t edited it again (since he edited it after coming to meta).
@poke that is true but that is not my fault or that of the SOCVR. The guidance when a question gets closed is clear: edit and it goes in the re-open queue
It doesn't matter who the user is
I never said that would have been your fault. I was just saying what would have been likely in other situations based on experience.
14:50
@rene I hope that @tristan will then edit his post and remove the abrasive wording and accusations from it.
user559633
@Magisch Stop trying to micromanage how others communicate. Take a deep breath and come back to it.
@Magisch That is up to him. I've learned today that English has a different tone between when it is written down and being said. I can live with that
@Magisch What exactly is the “abrasive wording”? The room being “close happy”? I’d say that’s a fact by definition of what you do. That the answer would be close voted because it mentioned the room? Evidence suggests that’s exactly what has happened.
@tristan Then don't expect me to assume any but the worst intentions from you there.
@tristan I already have filters setup to show posts in the tags I'm comfortable moderating. And taking a step back and asking for sanity checks is something that anyone can help with.
14:53
I wish we had something like Wikipedia:Assume good faith here… *sigh*
user559633
@Magisch I'm okay with this and don't hold it against you.
I always assume the worst from tristan because he is literally the worst.
user559633
Seriously, I'm the AT&T of people.
At least your not comcast, then I would have to exorcise myself after speaking to you
@poke As I said in my comment close happy is the impression you have from the outside. We're honestly not and that is probably the reason why we care so much to explain that.
user559633
14:54
I'm not sure what this discussion is meant to accomplish
Oh you know. Stuff
To broad
@tristan Me neither, but I already said I would stop discussing this when BoltClock initially said to stop it…
Really it was meant to avoid dragging the meta post into another realm.
user559633
@rene There's a difference between a room culture and how it affects the site when the net result of a room is site-actions.
14:55
It was only bluefeet who retriggered it again for me.
user559633
Which is to say, the Python room isn't "upvote" or "downvote" happy, but when a question gets linked by one of our regulars, it definitely results in a reaction one way or another -- with more than just the regulars taking part in that action.
@tristan I want to know if there is something we can do differently that makes us less close happy in your view. Because I value your view as a more experienced user that also runs a room that takes cv-pls. Why is your room not being called out and mine room is.
user559633
I was, in no way, taking a shot at your room regulars or how you organize your room -- if I wanted to state that, I would have come out and stated that directly as I sign my name to my opinions.
@rene Relevant document: sopython.com/wiki/cv-pls
I've modelled our FAQ after that example
user559633
14:58
@rene It's not your room, in particular, that's being called out. It's that your room is focused on close-related actions, where the site mechanism for closing questions allows for low-rep users to perform the action.
But I guess it boils down to the fact that we have a different core agenda. cv-pls are just a side thing that happen sometimes (really rarely actually, since most of the close votes are duplicates which are ban hammered by our gold users)
@tristan you keep saying that here but the 5 letters SOCVR really do appear in your answer
user559633
@rene Because that is the room in question and why the OP had his question closed.
Still mixes facts and opinions but OK
As I said in a comment before, I also don’t have a problem with your room. I do appreciate that you take the time to clean up the question mess. I really do. But it’s just natural that—given the way you organize yourself, in a public room, open for anyone—the likelyhood is there that inexperienced users jump on board who do not apply their own judgment and think critically about every vote they do.
15:02
I really oppose to calling our users inexperienced. You are allowed on only after >1K. Users below that are watched for and coached.
user559633
Reputation points don't equate good or careful judgment.
There is almost 24/7 traffic in our room, we try to have RO's from around the globe so we can follow the sun
I assume poke was referring to the fact anyone on the internet can read your cv-plses.
You can't stop people reading, you can only coach them to flag up cv-plseses
user559633
ROs can't control what lurkers and non-caring users do.
Sure, but that is not something I or you can fix.
That has nothing to do with the room or their regulars
So, again my question: Is there something I have to add/change/do/stop doing in our room or guidance given the events that took place?
user559633
15:06
Agreed. CV-pls requests that show up in a room focused on question closure are going to attract close votes. It seems like users that are new to that permission really want to apply it, and the CV room just acts as a feed.
I don’t know how you could fix it, but it is still a problem your room exposes. That doesn’t make the room bad, absolutely not. I think the majority of your actions are absolutely positive and help SO in general. But it is still a problem that exists.
And hey. I'm new to the room, but very active on meta. So I feel like I have quite a bit of experience with moderation.
user559633
I agree with poke.
The only thing I can do is to keep everything in the open. public available and hunt down our own users when they are called out on meta for making the wrong choice so we (as room) can learn from that.
Maybe the solution is just to be more aware of it, so that you don’t feel like you are being attacked whenever the problem is mentioned. I don’t feel like it’s a problem with the room. The problem would exist with or without it, the room just makes it more exposed which is making it easy for anyone who actually refers to the problem to mention the room instead
15:09
@poke to be honest, I do feel attacked but I've been told by now that I have to accept that.
An actual solution would likely involve changing how close votes work in their core, so this is a problem of Stack Overflow (the company).
I'm fine with the room being the public face of one of the issues in moderation.
"I'm not a member of the SOCVR team", but as far as I can see they take great care is taken to improve, question and answers if possible, comments are made under post to help OP. If a OP cares about his post he can get it re-opened (which is often made by the room). In the end the related question probably is better now. I'm personally very much for helping OP to make great post and the best room I can find to help OP is strangely the SOCVR.
user559633
Agreed. The close is "5 points in the close direction," so as a review room, you're not able to cast votes against those 5 to prevent questions from being closed erroneously -- this makes the SO CVR room mostly effective only in one direction
@rene Let me tell you that I can understand you. It’s very natural to feel attached to one’s creations or pet projects.
15:11
Heh. You cannot imagine how badly I've reacted when sopython has been criticised, justified or not.
user559633
@PetterFriberg You're basing this on people that type in the room. People can use the room to get a list of questions that are likely to get closed (there's a badge for this, even) without participating in discussion.
@Ffisegydd and of course it's so much worse when you think it's not justified.
@tristan which badge is that?
@Ffisegydd I don't mind being criticized, I can't stand it if I'm not getting something out of it to improve
user559633
Oh, my bad, in looking, it's exposed through the review queue. I thought there was one for close votes.
Ok, so I have disarmed that argument
15:15
@tristan well the core issue should be good question and good answers.... If you care about your question/answer on SO you will not have problem (and you will find help in the SOCVR).... (there can be some long discussion like these but no real problem). The main problem of all the crap (that hides the good stuff) is always people who don't care about the question but only there personal problem....
@tristan there is stackoverflow.com/help/badges/1298/marshal but that's for flags, not close votes, so would only appeal to someone under 3k in this particular instance.
And "Deputy" of course which is the Silver "Marshal"
user559633
This chat is why I wasn't a fan of the discussion being moved here.
Why not?
user559633
We've gone back and forth off the meta site, so it's just a handful of people circling around their original argument.
I'm not even sure what the original argument was about anyway.
user559633
15:18
Same
Yes, it is. I have in our guidance the rule the Agree to Disagree. We can settle for that.
user559633
Works for me.
user559633
Not sure what we're agreeing or disagreeing on, but sure.
Exactly
We agree that we all love our pet projects.
Regardless of its faults.
15:20
And there was peace. Now the Python and SOVCR rooms can turn on the common enemy - Programmers.SE.
So who/what is the new whipping boy?
Your call, we follow
user559633
Yeah, link to something :P
15:21
@DavidG excellent choice.
user559633
Anyway.
To celebrate our new found friendship, I’m going to create 10 crappy Python questions now for you to close.
That would get things going
user559633
@rene Apologies if you thought I was taking a shot at your regulars or room culture -- I think a room centered around a user-privileged moderation action encourages its use for better or worse and you can't control what your lurkers or cv-happy newbies do.
user559633
15:24
Taking off -- have a good day everyone
@tristan Ok, I understand. I appreciate feedback so if you find or see something that you think I should be aware of or should improve feel free to drag me in a chat room.
user559633
@rene Will do -- please feel free to do the same or come join us in room/6 python.
I rather burninate ... I mean will do :)
Glad everything got worked out. Have a good rest of the day.
cya
15:34
I think you have all behaved in a (fairly) civilized manner. In some places, there'd be chaos and bloodshed. Well done!

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