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11:08 PM
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A: Remove the incentive for FGITW to answer well known dupes

Shog9You're making a few assertions here: There's only one common incentive (rep) for answering duplicates Common duplicates are always easy to identify Removing reputation for answers to common duplicates will discourage people from answering them Let's consider each of these in turn... What mot...

 
We often lament how practically every possible on-topic question must have already been asked on Stack Overflow and there's barely any room for new questions anymore. But it means nothing if we can't even find the right targets.
 
Finally you answered, I have been waiting for your answer!. Thanks
 
finding the right target doesn't seem to be the issue OP is trying to address in this discussion, since they focus on obvious, blatant dupes, those that per your stats indicate "Median time to first close flag or vote: 7 minutes". As for intermittent reinforcement I wonder how much of it will be left if answerer has to click and scroll through a famous canonical dupe with, like, 20-30 answers in there. There seem to be a solid chance that only most stupid and stubborn folks will choose to proceed answering in the face of overwhelming evidence that thier topic has been beaten to death
 
Take a closer look at those numbers, @gnat: if the first answer arrives a minute or more before the first flag is raised, what chance do we have to do anything? But, for these "obvious, blatant duplicates", that's exactly what happens: the first answer arrives and then the first vote or flag follows. We already have a system that'll nag answerers, but it relies on the question being closed - and that can't happen any faster than the first vote or flag.
 
that's a game @Shog9 and this 7-vs-6 minutes difference is one you get matching demotivated dupe voters who know for sure that they have no chances until question is closed against happy answerers who know it'll take them less than a second to click "Post Answer". Tune the environment so that voters are a bit more motivated knowing it has some immediate effect and answerers are motivated a bit less having to click and scroll through the dupe, and results may change to 6-vs-6 or even 6-vs-7
 
11:08 PM
You say that, @gnat, but... There are more duplicates being closed now than ever before in Stack Overflow's history - and being closed faster, often instantaneously (gold-badge holders) or with only a single flag or vote needed (response from asker triggering system closure). Those are actually visible; people can know they exist without reading obscure meta threads. But you think a UI visible only to answerers based on actions they may not even be able to see is going to have a bigger effect on the behavior of voters? I'm... skeptical.
 
@Shog9 a long screen to click and scroll through is quaranteed to have an effect on answerers. And please don't forget voters, as of now they know for sure nothing will happen until close ("13 minutes"), it would be a solid motivation for them to understand that their votes have immediate effect on fastest gun folks
...you seem to kind of underestimate how easy it would be to learn about "dupe-popup" effect. Anyone trying to answer any dupe voted / flagged question will discover how it works. Learning about how it works is not limited to only blatant / canonical dupes - any question with dupe vote / flag will do. To assume that voters won't know about it is the same as to assume that they will never ever have a chance to attempt answering dupe-voted question
 
"It doesn't help that the UI that was supposed to help with this seems to straight-up ignore common duplicates in many scenarios either." Like this?
 
Yup, @user1803551 - or this one.
You seem to be overestimating how many people even do this, @gnat. Also... Not be pushy about it, but... This isn't horseshoes; close doesn't count. If a warning shows up for answers posted after a flag but most answers are posted before most flags, you don't get anything for that. The horses have bolted; no matter how many bars you put on the barn door now, you're still too late.
 
"most answers are posted before most flags" is what you have now, because you let them loose. And even with hands tied behind their backs, voters almost catch up ("7-vs-6"). If you shift gameplay a bit on their side, things will likely change, there will be more chances for flags to get there before answers
 
Is this based on anything more than wishful thinking, @gnat?
PSA: a lot of this data is public. You can't get flag timings, and your results will be a little bit different because deleted posts are excluded, but it's pretty close; definitely worth playing with.
 
11:08 PM
it is primarily based on that 7-vs-6 data you just provided. I couldn't even dream that voters are that good at catching up
 
So... This is the problem with posting exact numbers. 6 and 7 don't really matter; they're both very small numbers, "I left to grab coffee" numbers. They demonstrate that it's reasonably fast to find duplicates for common problems... But even faster to just write new answers. In theory, writing an answer should have a ton of baggage that essentially posting a link does not... But somehow finding that link is harder. I confess I can't really understand the idea that we should make answering harder rather than working to make finding information easier.
 
Finding the right link, for the kind of "obvious dupe" question that I think we're talking about here, actually takes more cognitive work than banging out an answer. The solution to the three hundredth version of "Why doesn't yyyy-mm-dd parse 2003-09-14 into a date correctly?" flows straight from the mind to the keyboard. Leaving the page, remembering the keywords, waiting for Google (no matter how fast it is), scanning results, verifying the link you've chosen, wondering if there's an older, better question to use, all takes thought. It's actually surprising to me that the times are equal.
 
This is not really serious but do you guys have any thoughts on using something like Watson to analyze question and see if the common dupes could be appropriate?
 
user3956566
Gee now that was hard to find and third search result in google C'mon, it's time to stop rewarding people for no effort and it's ok to penalise people. Every society does it when people break the laws and most people learn to respect the law even if they don't like it. SO gives rep penalties for abuse and bans on the site. Well if you want the site to be worthwhile, it's time to teach people how to use it in a way they understand-
 
user3956566
- when someone puts their hand on a hot stove, it hurts, when people answer questions that have 100s of answers here already it's time it hurt them and the people answering. These can always be linked in the faq with a search here for commonly asked questions, with a pop up for all users with a rep under 50.
 
11:08 PM
@JoshCaswell productivity tip (it probably doesn't matter because currently, no matter how fast you vote, answerers won't notice until question is closed)
 
 
user3956566
@Shog9 don't you think the SO search results need to be improved, it's supporting the idea that's creeping through the site that it's a corporate conspiracy to encourage people to post questions no matter what LOL
 
user3956566
And shog I have the greatest respect for you, except I don't like it when you disagree with me, so please stop :D and since you've answered the question is gaining downvotes... you are a Force to be reckoned with ....
 
The problem there is that a search for NullReferenceException will produce the expected result, but that's too short for a title; by the time the minimum number of characters are entered, the results are all over the map. Same for the "related" sidebar, I suspect. A respectable number of questions never get posted because of those instant search results; improving the results there could make a lot of the rest of this unnecessary.
 
I would love to hear from Shog what is wrong with a several minute jump start for close voters or "disallowers" that my proposed answer advocated. The deck is by far stacked in favor of the OP questioner and dupe answerer.
 
11:08 PM
Triage can actually be used in this manner, @Drew; it doesn't actually block answers, but it does limit the visibility of the question during review. You still need to get folks looking at them who are able to identify duplicates quickly.
 
And as you know that is completely not feasible during any of this time frame, we simply do not want to turn away any question ever from going live. Any and all questions are to be accepted and a thinly stretched moderation crew left to clean up the debris.
 
@Shog9 I disagree on a few principles here. Mainly, I think that any proposed change in this thread would be better then the current system, including just answer banning people regularly answering dupes or docking 100 rep every time a question someone answered gets closed as a dupe. The current situation is quite bad, and just talking and muddying with statistics wont cut it this time. I realise that changes that would further improve site quality would cut into SE's profit, so im not holding my breath.
 
Folks don't pay us to post questions, @Magisch. If any of this affects my paycheck, it'd be getting folks with questions to their answers faster - which is always, always going to favor directing folks to existing questions. Remember, the overwhelming majority of Stack Overflow "users" don't post anything; they read the results of their google searches. Forcing readers to wade through dreck in order to find an answer hurts the most common use of (and indeed, the charter goal for) the site.
Also... Please avoid the politician's syllogism. There are plenty of ways we could make this worse by just "doing something" for the sake of being active.
 
@Shog9 The fact is that a whole lot of question askers that ask dupes are low rep people - only those see ads anyways. The fact that these get answered and answering them is not discouraged means that they come back for more. That means more $$. Obviously this fact has been part of why stackoverflow has been so flooded with absolute garbage and little to nothing has been done to effectively curb that. At least thats my take on it.
@Shog9 This harkens back to the discussion about moderation we had a while ago. SE needs alot more people moderating and people moderating alot more. A massive number of poor questions and answers fall through the cracks and are never recognised as such because the people filtering them are 1) not enough and 2) very limited in how much they can do.
And as long as the gamification aspect of SO is actively discouraging moderation vs supporting help vampires and answering poor questions, the QA quality will continue to take dives.
 
I'm trying to be polite, @Magisch... But you're not appreciating the difference in scale I'm alluding to here. Last month, Stack Overflow got somewhere around 40K new user questions; in that same time, it got somewhere north of 40 million readers. It's the latter who pay the bills.
 
11:08 PM
@Shog9 And which question are it that obtained these views? Every new question I see in popular tags gets like 50+ views, even if its really bad. I would like to believe the goal of all this is still to create great QA with little noise. For that, I feel like moderation needs to be more in focus of what we're doing here.
 
You're giving me a headache, @Magisch. Yes, popular topics are popular - imagine that. Go query the public data and see which questions are getting views. Hint: it's a long tail distribution - lots and lots of questions get a few views, a few questions get a lot.
 
Regarding triage: can we show a list of related questions that might be duplicates to triage reviewers? Maybe sorted by how often they're used as a dup target, to work around our not-so-great search? Seeing "hey, this question has almost the same title as that highly-upvoted one" might encourage triage reviewers to check, whereas manually formulating a useful search query is high-friction.
 
@Shog9 No, im really tired of playing the meta game by now. Getting substantive change done here is almost impossible. I never quite experienced a site with this much innate inertia. Even changes with hundreds of upvotes that would make sense (like dispute audits, etc) get dropped or just not pursued for years at a time. I'm not even sure why im still replying to this, its most likely going to again change nothing. Back to closing 50 tosh questions a day I guess.
 
I kinda like that idea, @Jeffrey; we could even have a separate "track" for possible duplicates.
You've only been a member here for... 4 months, @Magisch? You can't be tired already. Try doing this for 4 years, then come back and tell me how tiring it is to get folks to see the same problem. Whatever decisions we make here, there'll be folks still living with the results when we've moved on to something else; they're unlikely to be placated by "I got bored thinking about it" as an explanation for defects.
 
@Shog9 Should I post a separate feature request for that, or have you already put it on your 'ideas I kinda like' list? (And if so, should I post it here on MSO or on MSE?)
 
11:08 PM
Post a feature request so it doesn't get lost, please @Jeffrey
 
@Shog9 What about the people that currently want to make the site better? Do they get placated by "We discussed it but getting anything done here requires a master's thesis and a moon alignment as well as years of time"? For your dig at 4 months. 4 Months is a long time. If a problem is this prevalent and this bad for the site, I expect a fix within days, not weeks or months, and certainly not years. If I had a comparable flaw in my products at work a manager would be breathing down my neck every minute until I got rid of it.
 
You expect a fix for a problem you can't even take seriously enough to try and understand, @Magisch. Less talking, more reading, more research. How are you going to solve a problem you don't understand? Go look at the questions that get answered, the answers that get posted. Look at the flaws in the "canonical" questions that prevent them from being seen as useful by askers. The miscommunication that pits people against each other instead of letting them work together. Then tell me how pouring gasoline on the fire will surely put it out.
 
@Shog9 The problem is fairly clear and well understood. People answer dupes rather then close them because there is a rep incentive to doing that. Thats pretty much all there is to know about it. What we're discussing about is ways to try and fix it. And you're arguing that keeping the status quo or maybe(tm) sometime(tm) soon(tm) introducing a new review queue will fix it. I don't. We are in relatively simple disagreement on the scale of the problem and what drawbacks are worth accepting to correct it.
Maybe I have a very much more cynical view of human nature. I don't see any other reason why high rep users keep answering dupes other then repwhoring. I think these users not only don't contribute anything to the site, they even actively clutter it. You're the community manager, isn't it part of your job to get stuff like this remedied?
 
Yes, I heard the story before, it has monsters and white knights and epic battles of good against evil, @Magisch. It's a very nice story, and everyone who hears it imagines themselves under the shining banner of Right. Reality is much more messy and has less happy endings. Sometimes the monsters were actually the right; sometimes everyone is actually a monster. You are not nearly cynical enough.
 
@Magisch Did you see how well the licensing proposal went over? That's what happens when SO takes action without getting community buy-in first. Something can be done quickly; getting people to agree on what should be done takes time.
 
11:08 PM
@JeffreyBosboom Getting a majority on here to agree to anything is almost impossible. Community input works until it doesn't. Some things need to be decided by the site, such as encouraging/discouraging behaviors. Ofcourse users who stand to lose severely from such a change will have a knee-jerk reaction against it. Its the same dilemma that happens in politics often. Whats necessary is often wildly unpopular. SO is hitting the limit of how much you can do with site democracy.
 
@Magisch the second a serious point comes across in opposition, it can easily be met with jokes about Knights and Horses, or deflectionary comments about the multi-hour Triage queue. Realize when there simply is no desire to change something, and that it is not really a discussion.
 
I fell asleep last night researching this, and wrapped up the post before I took time to eat breakfast this morning. But y'all wanna ignore what I wrote, stamp your feet and imply I have ulterior motives because I didn't confirm your fairy-tale? Fine; you go back to believing in fairies and have fun with all that. I will still be here when you grow up.
 
@Shog9 Its mostly that you come across as willfully obtuse and dishonest in your explaination
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It really feels like you posted some PR blubber with selective data to just placate some more and distract until this has tided over so nothing has to change
The reason we all assume ulterior motives is because we do think you are very much a smart person, and as such should be arriving at the conclusion that we got to a while ago when researching this. That makes your disagreement sound largely fabricated and motivated by other things then fixing the problem
 

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