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3:53 AM
I swear, the local pigeons are stalking the chickens, in the aim of steal their feed leftovers.
 
 
2 hours later…
5:50 AM
What's the difference between CMD pin and DAT pin?
 
 
3 hours later…
8:52 AM
This DIY robot instruction manual is brutal, includes diagrams with OR, AND gates and transistors.
 
9:19 AM
Do you folks use fibers or coroutines, somehow in years and years of doing c++ I've never used them.
 
 
1 hour later…
10:41 AM
@Mikhail I have only ever used FlsAlloc() and friends because it takes a callback function parameter unlike TlsAlloc().
 
 
2 hours later…
12:52 PM
@wilx at this point I'm pretty convinced that TlsAlloc should only be used by library writers for per thread caching where thread_local wouldn't do
 
Hello, I'm not really familiar with C++, all the references and pointers stuff is a bit confusing to me. I have a code that one guy fixed and I need to check if it was actually fixed. He had a function similar to this: void AttachFile(MyString domain), that was changed to void AttachFile(MyString& domain). What's the real difference and how can this affect the outcome? Sry if the question is silly.
 
@username difference is that in the second you pass a reference versus a copy
you can think of a reference as passing the actual thing vs. making a copy of it
 
so if I make the changes to the original object that was passed to the function, it will not affect the object the was passed as a copy. But with references it will be changed, right?
 
@username correct
 
thank you!
 
 
1 hour later…
3:20 PM
@Mikhail I've done both. Between the two, I (strongly) prefer coroutines.
 
is there really a technical difference between fibers and stackful coroutines? Isn't it basically a difference in API?
 
@JerryCoffin I 98% agree with you, the other 2% is concerning long running tasks that need stacks
@PeterT that and captures IIRC
 
3:48 PM
@PeterT Yes, mostly. But I've mostly used stackless coroutines (and athough being stackless has a few limitations, I've never found them problematic).
 
4:01 PM
I have, for the most part, never found a really good reason to use stackful except in heavy heavy processing situations. Even then in most cases stackless is still a better fit.
 
Since I'm jumping in the middle of this. What's the functional difference between stackful and stackless? Doesn't the executing thread need the entire stack anyway? Or is it an implementation/performance issue?
 
4:16 PM
@Mysticial technically no, stackful has the advantage that they preserve call stack and that the 'caller' gets naturally returned to. Stackless use a LOT less memory and have to have the calling context resolve them like promises so they are much more portable.
it's a lot more complicated but that's the super high level
 
ah, thx
I really should catch up on the coroutine stuff.
 
@Mysticial They actually make it super easy to do thread dispatch work, you just set up a fire and forget coroutine for it and then call it with all the data you need. Alternatively you can stash the coroutine promises and await all of them at once
I wrote some sockets code to use them for example so that I didn't have to use a separate thread
 
5:16 PM
@Mgetz How is that implemented? Is there a thread pool underneath?
 
lol, did you really just link me to a 11k LOC file?
Oh nvm, it jumps to a line. It took that long to load. lol
 
@Mysticial to a specific line in that file
 
So it uses the Windows built-in thread pool.
 
@Mysticial correct, there is a way to resume on the main thread too
 
5:21 PM
GCC's implementation? Do they finally have a thread pool now?
 
@Mysticial lol no, IIRC there is a coroutine wrapper of libuv
 
Actually, I don't know if the thread pool in Windows is an OS feature or a compiler feature. As in, does the OS automatically create one for each process? Or does the compiler automatically create one using the Windows API when it's needed?
 
@Mysticial 100% OS
 
Whatever the case is, I'm not aware of Linux having an OS-backed ready-to-go thread pool that programs can just tap into like in Windows.
 
a threadpool is now created for every process on creation. This is for IO reasons IIRC
 
5:26 PM
@JerryCoffin so in what kind of code did you use it? I've never felt the motivation.
 
In fact I think the only way to opt out of that is to mark yourself as only windows XP compatible I believe
 
A few months ago, I applied some optimizations to the way I wrapped the Windows thread pool and found that it was a tad faster than my custom thread pool. So that's the new default now.
 
@Mysticial makes sense, coroutines are nice because you don't have to think about how to get the code to a thread, you just say "ON thread NOW" and the compiler takes care of that (insofar as there is a coroutine implementation for that) etc.
in theory executors will make all this even nicer
 
@Mgetz I think the performance gain here is that the Windows thread pool is implemented natively in the OS itself. So it can bypass the overhead of mutexes and condition variables that an external implementation would inevitably need at some point.
 
@Mysticial it's also deeply integrated, as aforementioned it spawns on on process start so even that reduces startup time significantly at the penalty of process start time
 
5:34 PM
At least when I try to map it out, joining after a fork would require multiple user/kernel-mode transitions for acquiring, releasing, waking up waiting threads. But the Windows thread pool can probably just say in kernel mode the whole time.
 
@Mysticial fork and threading are 100% incompatible due to mutable state issues
and IIRC windows thread pool is mostly user mode
 
@Mgetz Not a process fork, but a computational fork-join parallelism.
 
Ah either way windows moved most of that to user mode IIRC, they try to keep transitions to kernel mode to a minimum
 
 
1 hour later…
:: electron ::
 
user10957435
I can smell 1.5k! Just... 4... more.. rep...
 
@Chipster do do do down vote!
 
@thecoshman I am on it!
 
user10957435
@thecoshman Lol.
 
7:18 PM
Basically a chat application with 6 people ate 2 Gigabytes of memory, then they made it "native" by writing it with react. Bring it down to 500 megabytes. So, the electron js framework change was actually a performance optimization.
Every day we stray further from god's light.
But also wtf happens when you go from 3 teams to 6 teams? Ram usage goes up by a factor of 2. Just it just fucking launch the same process? (And somehow doesn't benefit from dynamic linking?)
 
@Mikhail To which Microsoft says: "I'll see your 500 meg and raise to to a gig" (or maybe: "500 megs? Here, hold my beer!")
 
dynamic linking defeating scaling
 
@Mikhail I think they're talking primarily (strictly?) about the space used for the data.
 
Multiple processes for multiple workspaces. When signed into multiple workspaces, each of those workspaces was in fact running a stand-alone copy of the web client inside a separate Electron process, which meant that Slack used more memory than users expected.
If you run two Google chrome browsers, shouldn't dynamic linking reduce memory overhead?
 
7:33 PM
@Mikhail Should, yes, certainly. Will? That may be less certain. As far as I know, Chrome's memory usage is normally just "all that's available", regardless of what you're doing.
 
Imagine if there was some way to share or cache javascript libraries across chrome instances, kinda like dynamic linking
truly dark times
 
yeah imagine that
Electron apps... BUT IN A BROWSER!
 
Can we call multiple Electron processes "tabs", for reasons only grizzly old developers will understand?
 
Personally, I think we should work more simply. Anybody who tries to claim something built with Electron (or similar) is a "desktop app", we sue them for false advertising. :-)
3
 
actual Chrome is smarter than that it will group multiple tabs of the same domain into one process
primitive electron apps just use so many processes because Node programmers haven't discovered threads yet
 
7:44 PM
@PeterT individual parts of Node have, but Node now has the python 2.7 problem where they are technically limited due to legacy
this is actually hurting them pretty bad in some areas like modules support
 
So, one of the things I noticed is that ML libraries use a ton of RAM. For example, GPU tensorflow evaluation is pushing 1 Gb of RAM using nvidia's libraries. If you roll it yourself you get bad performance due to difficult thread/work optimization. Maybe there is some market for making ROM chips that contain these libraries?
 
8:19 PM
@Mikhail Maybe. It would be kind of cool to see a machine boot up like the Apple II or Commodore 64 did, but instead of "BASIC, Copyright Microsoft 1976", it'd say: "Tensorflow. Copyright Google. All your data are belong to us."
 
Fun business model: free GPU training time but the network belongs to us
 
@Mikhail Given the percentage of trained nets that are useful, I wouldn't invest in it.
 
Idk, the underlying data is often hard to curate, especially for biological applications. I got a two techs doing this, and we're generating a commercially viable set once a month.
Also I like how the Japanese virtual girlfriends have requirements that aren't typical of actual girlfriends. For example, if you don't feed them they die.
 
Are you sure you aren't confusing Tamagochis with Girlfriends?
 
@PeterT Perhaps, but he's hardly alone in that... :-)
 
8:34 PM
@JerryCoffin does anyone ship a UEFI shell like that? Honestly it'd be kinda cool if UEFI had a BASIC shell
 
@Mgetz I've never seen one, but yeah, it'd be fairly easy to write (especially if you didn't care a lot about I/O speed, so you were willing to just use UEFI drivers instead of writing your own drivers). Hmm...I've written a couple of BASIC interpreters at times. I probably still have source to at least one of them...
Oh, and if you didn't feel like dealing with UEFI stuff directly, you could use IncludeOS.
 
It would still be faster and potentially more functional than a Apple II or C64, you could even extend the BASIC lib to have rudimentary graphics commands so they don't have to do direct writes to memory
 
@Mgetz Short of purely artificial limitations, it'd be hard to keep it from being faster and more functional. Even if you didn't add any new functionality directly, just having access to lots more memory is a big win by itself.
 
But because we live in the dystopian future, it will, still, for reason, require internet access.
 
@JerryCoffin Oh I figured, I'm actually curious if there would be a market for a fairly hard to screw up VB6 like version for embedded terminals and stuff
 
8:47 PM
@Mikhail No problem. UEFI has a (reasonably) complete TCP stack built in.
 
@Mgetz No, many embedded graphic panel applications are developed with limited resources with 3rd party GUI kits. Every developer I know would trade performance for ease of development. In contrast low embeded power systems are already written tight to the metal.
 
@Mikhail I've seen a lot of "low power" systems that were just single core 1.5ghz celerons with a gig of ram
which is honestly more than enough for this sort of thing
 
Yeah, I mean more like environment sensors, clandestine audio recording (and other junk I'm not too proud of working on )
 
@Mikhail Oh that... yeah that usually has much tighter hardware requirements, usually due to durability issues
tbf some of the new embedded boards are actually more powerful than that celeron... and have more RAM
 
Yeah, so there is really no race to the bottom for the kind of embed interfaces that are used to control industrial equipment or medical devices. Quite the opposite due to a lack of developer resources.
Even the CNC stuff I did a decade ago, had the front end written in WebGL (which was exciting, and new at the time)
 
8:54 PM
@Mikhail depends on the location, and the hardware. Stuff for remote deployment must be 100% as it may not be serviceable. Stuff sold with medical devices must last the lifetime of the device because of odd FDA rules. CNC and other stuff, used to have to tolerate crap conditions. Anymore though they just use laptops.
Heck even IBM uses thinkpads for the Support Elements of the mainframes
Side note: I love everytime someone says "Mainframe is dead" it's rather amusingly wrong
 
For medical devices, there is a fun loophole where the user facing side can be separated from the controlling hardware. For example, you might have a protocol that has to meet the regulations rather than the thing that displays the data.
On another side note, I'm amused by the butt hurt in the HPC community over machine learning
Take a look at this guy:
https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6557776640053698561?commentUrn=urn%3Ali%3Acomment%3A%28activity%3A6557776640053698561%2C6558933112712245248%29
 
@Mikhail Literally just got of a medical contract. The entire processing of the data must be FDA controlled as must be the display. Even changing the monitor model can cause issues
 
@Mgetz Maybe we got lucky :-)
But the projects I worked on where mostly on probes and microfluidics (like BD...)
 
@Mikhail possible, it depends on the purpose. Medical imaging tends to be where the FDA cares more
something about "if the image isn't the same the diagnosis might not be"
@Mikhail ML and HPC go together, just not for the jobs you're running. One of the things nobody talks about is partical physics and ML.. particularly for large atomics simulations. Like say those that the DOE does weekly
 
At the HPC thing, the flow of money says otherwise and the butt hurt is palpable.
 
9:03 PM
@Mikhail top500.org/lists/2019/06 says otherwise
there is a LOT of money going into HPC ML right now
 
You're correct in the sense that ML is big in the HPC market. But the HPC market and architectures are not particularly competitive for the kind of paradigm shifting applications that AI enables.These applications, and the associated feeding frenzy have outgrown the HPC world. The butt hurt is that the HPC guys consider themselves to be most sophisticated, and important computer users, and get angry when somebody tell them otherwise.
 
@Mikhail HPC isn't sophisticated at all, it's literally the biggest brute force you can try
 
Yeah. But they justify their heavily government subsidized existence by claiming they are leading technological progress, in the same way, for example, the moon landings lead to technological progress. This isn't true, and they are increasingly butt hurt about it.
What code improvements have impressed you the most for throughput? What made you say "wow!" Any #TensorFlow comments will be deleted. #artificialintelligence #programming #coding
 
@Mikhail Oddly no... they justify it with "do you want to know if the bombs are going to go off or not?"
 
Its fucking cute, and cringe worthy
 
9:09 PM
@Mikhail not disagreeing there
 
@Mgetz Yes, I've personally worked on some of those simulations. The people that do that work don't talk about that.
 
@Mikhail They don't, my point is that the funding for those computers was never in doubt. The computers that need the funding (NOAA, NCAR, UCAR) have to get it from private sources.
 
Wait, so "classic" HPC is getting butthurt that ML is bigger than they are?
 
It was in doubt because they don't need faster systems. They need to come up with reasons why the work they did in 2010 is insufficient. This is why the US stopped building new systems. Because the current systems work.
 
@Mikhail umm no, it is in doubt because congress doesn't want to spend money on the weather or climate change
NOAA has gotten new systems, just not from USG
They need a LOT more horsepower to really power the weather models in some areas
 
9:15 PM
If they really needed more horsepower, what the cracker jack have they been running?
 
It's gotten bad enough that the NWS is considering shutting down offices
@Mikhail computers that were relatively small fry or stealing cycles when they could on DOE iron
 
@Mysticial Extremely. You can feel NCSA+Seibel completely retooling from physics simulation to AI. The IBM systems I got are only for ML, and its pretty clear nobody is launching multiple node jobs. But the rumor is that they will move NCSA because it fucked up the ML feeding frenzy.
 
literally I don't think NWS broke Petascale until last year?
@Mikhail Well the AI sims give better probabilistic results last I checked
 
@Mgetz It'd be interesting to figure up the percentage of climate change that's driven by modeling of climate change... :-)
 
Not sure if people are launching traditional MPI jobs with ML, that would be kinda stupid. But in terms of distributing different batches you could easily
 
9:18 PM
@Mysticial The other part is that the HPC people keep pushing interconnects, etc when what people want are big memory systems with fast GPU interconnects. So you have the situation, that the GPU mining rig is 30x more cost effective than the junk IBM is pushing. (As you know IBM has a bad habit of pushing complete garbage architectures)
 
@JerryCoffin pretty sure UCAR is solar and wind powered now, can't speak to the other computers
@Mikhail again.. depends on what the main purpose of the computer is
 
@Mikhail "they will move NCSA" - as in they will physically relocate the building a few blocks away from Seibel?
 
@Mysticial So, it needs to be refunded. It may not get refunded.
 
either way HPC is just a dick size contest in most cases, the computers rarely ever get used in single job runs
 
@Mgetz Not sure that means much. In the end, it's much the same whether that computer is powered by coal/oil/whatever, and something else by solar/wind, or that computer is powered by wind/solar, and something else by coal/oil/whatever.
 
9:24 PM
@Mikhail Oh, they're cutting funding to NCSA?
 
@JerryCoffin Boulder has been very aggressive in getting off of Coal and Oil last I checked
 
Everybody is worried, some people are fleeing. I've been dealing with a few refugees from NCSA programs that didn't get refunded.
 
@Mikhail DoD should pick up the tab if congress fails
 
@Mgetz That's undoubtedly true.
 
@Mikhail So I'm guessing NCSA isn't trying to adapt to AI? Or are that because of the butthurt?
 
9:26 PM
@JerryCoffin apparently Xcel is planning to retire the main coal units in the denver area, for lack of profitability
 
They are trying, very hard, especially in advertising. But there is an obvious technical mismatch between the architecture that AI requires and the architecture of HPC systems. The disconnect between the reality is painful to watch. Meanwhile a single DGX gets the performance of 1/6 the Blue Waters machine.
 
@Mikhail Is it mostly the interconnect multi-node guys who are getting fucked over? Or are all the low-level people getting fucked as well?
 
HPC is an ecosystem and hype train. I'm sure you remember when working there.
 
@Mikhail I fled a long time ago.
I hesitate to even call the shit I do, "HPC" since it's all single-node.
 
@Mysticial not exactly a lot of mobility there tbh
 
9:31 PM
One of the big scams with HPC was the funding. Basically as somebody doing HPC applications you needed to write grants for compute time. This was the circle jerk because you'd come up with application that required complex systems. For some reason the compute time cost 2x more than EC2, and 10x more than what you could build. As applications get defunded, or moved to white boxes, the HPC people lost a lot of funding. And they lost it really fast. Maybe over 2 years.
 
white boxes?
 
@Mgetz That's certainly easy to believe--coal emits enough that cleaning up the emissions has left it at barely profitable for quite a while. We'd basically have to roll back emissions regulations a lot to make it really profitable again, and regardless of Trump's campaign claims, I don't see that happening. But all of that is pretty much independent from the percentage of energy used to model climate change (and such).
 
In computer hardware, a white box is a personal computer or server without a well-known brand name. For instance, the term applies to systems assembled by small system integrators and to home-built computer systems assembled by end users from parts purchased separately at retail. In this latter sense, building a white box system is part of the DIY movement. The term is also applied to high volume production of unbranded PCs that began in the mid-1980s with 8 MHz Turbo XT systems selling for just under $1000.Because form factors like ATX and connectors such as IDE, SATA, PCI, and PCI Express are...
 
@Mikhail Not surprised at all. Cloud systems have economies of scale.
But they also have shit interconnects.
 
@Mysticial Actually no, cloud systems are more expensive than what you can build at home.
 
9:33 PM
Which as you mentioned nobody in AI cares about.
 
@Mikhail part of that tbf was the high cost of compute time, when it's cheaper to run the project on AWS than the purpose built system even though it takes longer the system is broken.
 
@Mikhail Compared to a university supercomputer.
 
@JerryCoffin apparently even without emissions controls the cost of running coal (and keeping boilers in working condition) is prohibitive compared to LPG
something about LNG doesn't randomly explode, it doesn't gunk up things, it doesn't have fly ash, and it's easier to control the burn mix for optimal results
either way I'm out for the afternoon
 
@Mgetz Are you talking about LP gas, or liquified natural gas? Natural gas (in various forms) has been growing a lot, but as far as I know, LP gas is used so little it's barely noticeable.
 
I'd say this, HPC has always sold itself as a technology leader, and the ML community is eating their lunch as the new technology leader. The response is the absurd claim, that you need HPC technology for ML.
 
9:42 PM
@Mikhail I think the industry is just changing and IP for ML is the direction things are heading in.
 
IP?
 
hardware custom chips for ML
 
No, there are bunch of companies that recently failed at that. Cycle to ship is too slow, and most ML teams are too small, specialized to use non-standard tooling. Money is in the applications, solutions
I've seen vanilla unets worth millions of dollars because they can detect certain kinds of corn. I've never seen specialized chips sell, ever, at all.
 
I think it's the only place where it's succeeding meaningfully.
you should crack open your smartphone
 
9:49 PM
@fredoverflow At least offhand, it seems like it would be biased primarily by the implementation of the hash function, rather than the set itself.
 
Cellphone companies, and other hardware manufactures have this proposal for AI. If they do AI they stay in business. That isn't growth, that is survival. I'm talking about the feeding frenzy. The here is a network I trained, now give me a few million dollars.
 
@fredoverflow How's this surprising?
 
@fredoverflow I feel this is not very surprising at all
 
@Rick ding ding ding, we have a winner!
This is more of a "Hey guys, I'm still alive!" than an "OMG YOU WON'T BELIEVE THIS, DOCTORS HATE ME!!!" post.
 
@fredoverflow Oh, well I am glad to see that you are alive :-)
@Mikhail this is the hype phase, they will be asking for their money back once they see ROI
 
9:56 PM
@Mikhail "necessary for survival" may also lead to "allowing massive growth" (e.g., compare to production line manufacturing around, say, 1920).
 
10:11 PM
@Rick ROI seems has been pretty high for many of the applications I've worked, the important qualifier is that the ROI was only high when the work was outsourced to people who knew what they were doing.
@JerryCoffin I don't see it leading to massive growth because, we don't expect the number of cell phones to change - just the applications or uses.
But I'd argue that for most applications we have sufficient compute power.
 
@Mikhail Unlikely to lead to growth in unit sales. But if they can move users to higher-priced units, that can still lead to pretty serious growth in total sales.
 
Which won't happen because nobody has "exclusive" use of these AI capabilities. Competition drives the price down. Further, for any 2D image processing tasks, we already have sufficiently capabilities.
 
@Mikhail The big problem on mobile is battery life--even assuming you have sufficient compute capability, running all the cores maxed-out will run batteries down fast enough that few will put up with it for any length of time.
 
@Mikhail I think the operative word is experienced. No on one knows what they are doing. It's just that some have explored the solution space enough to know better.
 
@Rick I know what I'm doing
We're talking about things with COGs that are like 1.5x, maybe 2x if you're Apple. Hardware isn't where the money is at. Money is in new software, new applications, new solutions, etc.
Fuck, I need to stop shit posting here and get back to shitting on my code
 
10:22 PM
@Mikhail Put your code here and you will be able to shit two birds with one ass.
 
lol
 
@Mikhail So hard to resist the temptation to write something implying masturbation, and that we all know what you're doing, but try to ignore it...
@Mysticial An ass shitting out birds. Sounds like something from a religious book...
 
@JerryCoffin lol, I believe you just did. I must learn these dark arts.
@Mikhail That is disturbing.
 
10:45 PM
@Mikhail Was about to ask "What the hell is that', but @Rick has already answered quite nicely--yes, it is disturbing.
 
 
11:18 PM
@fredoverflow you alive?
 
11:37 PM
@ScarletAmaranth You came of out nowhere, attacked and then retreated into the silence from which you came. I now feel like I'm being watched, a target of some future ambuscade.
 
@Rick It's called "lurking". It's actually pretty innocuous.
 
so you say
 
Because Qt style are hardcoded, the authors of the library need to manually decorate every fucking function to perform DPI scaling. In the source you can see they need to manually multiple everything by a scale factor. Sometimes they forget elements. If I file this bug it may literally take 5 years for them to fix. C++ needs a widget kit that isn't a cluster fuck of backwards compatibility and.
 

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