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12:02 AM
The only vulnerability I can think of in this latter approach is that you use a different thread to measure the memory bandwidth utilization. But this is probably way too noisy to be exploitable.
 
12:23 AM
@Mysticial I'm pretty sure I could do it well enough (albeit, using a logic analyzer, which pretty much blows the whole notion of security out of the water...) :-)
 
Solders JTAG to Intel 10 nm process
 
@JerryCoffin Let's assume you had physical access to the machine (which also defeats the purpose of this anyway). How would that work?
Or did you mean spectrum analyzer?
 
Van Eck phreaking?
 
@Mysticial No--a logic analyzer. You'd put an interposer between the DIMM socket and the DIMM itself, and just look at all the traffic going to/from the memory. Not sure how well it'd work with LGA, but you can also do the same putting an interposer between the CPU and its socket. Did that years ago on some DEC Alpha workstations. Workstations were expensive--but the interposer was even more expensive than they were... :-)
 
@JerryCoffin oh ic... haha reminds of my middle school days when we used GameShark to hack the pokemon games.
@JerryCoffin You'd also need to do it in a way that doesn't affect the signal strength or the machine will error.
And if you try to put a signal strength repeater in the middle, you'd add latency which will also break the machine since the timings don't have too much tolerance in them.
 
12:34 AM
there is high school, there is middle school, but no low school only primary school
 
@Mysticial Yup--designing a usable interposer isn't trivial, but (impressively enough) most of them are still passive, and mostly depend on adding only minimal impedance/latency.
The ones I've used in the past were from Future Plus, but they're not showing up immediately in a quick Google search.
 
Ooooh, specially made for DIMMs. Not bad.
DDR4 3200.
 
@Mysticial Most (that I've seen) tend to be rated based on speeds when that interface originally came out, and the rating never gets updated (but I've used them well beyond rated speed without problems).
 
If memory serves, DDR4 actually negotiates the pre-emphasis (and such) at startup, which probably helps it deal with things like interposers a little more easily than older standards did.
 
12:43 AM
"pre-emphasis"?
 
@Mysticial Send a known signal. The other end measures how it's distorted, and sends back a report. Then for real signals, you intentionally apply equal and opposite distortion, so what comes out the far end will be much closer to what's intended, so you get a much cleaner eye pattern.
 
oh ic
 
@Mysticial The name probably isn't exactly accurate any more, but it's still used. Comes from back in the days of vinyl records. Treble is generally much lower in volume than bass, so when the record the record, they boost the treble (quite a lot), to get better signal to noise ratio, then when you play it back you roll the treble back off following the same curve.
 
@JerryCoffin What's the mechanism that is used to apply these distortions? It seems like you'd need a fairly complicated amount of logic to do it. And when you're clocked at 1600 MHz+, doesn't sound simple.
 
12:54 AM
@Mysticial I don't remember all the details, but if memory serves, most of it is choosing from one of a few fixed choices for each of three parameters or so.
I'm not even sure the exact details of what pre-emphasis you can apply are all that tightly defined--kind of seems like it has the mechanism to report the distortion in what it received, and it's up to you to decide what to do with that.
 
if the choices are few you can iterate over all of them and then pick the one that is the received the best
 
In my BIOS, I see some "DRAM training" options. I've always assumed those were related to the memory timings. But it could be this instead.
 
@Mysticial I find the labels in most BIOSes nearly impossible to understand...
@ratchetfreak You probably could, now that you mention it.
Doing a quick look, here's a (fairly short, understandable) app note on pre-emphasis. Not specific to DDR 4, but applies there perfectly well. altera.com/en_US/pdfs/literature/an/an602.pdf
 
One of the interesting things is that DRAM tends to have very high overclockability. But the "tails" at the higher frequencies are very long. Meaning the stability at 3200 is only slightly better than at 3800. By comparison, The CPU core and cache have very sharp "cliffs" in stability. It's very possible to be completely stable at 4.9 GHz, but error immediately at 5.0 GHz.
I wish I knew more about waveguides and signals stuff to understand it better.
So right now, the highest (stock) systems run DRAM at 2666 MT/s (1333 MHz). But in reality, you can run them somewhat stability at as high as 3600-3800 MT/s. But "somewhat stably" isn't good enough.
In the absence of thermal or power limitations, CPUs have almost no such "spread".
AMD clocks their Ryzens up to around 3.7 GHz. They start blowing up at 3.9 GHz.
 
1:10 AM
memory clock is mostly the signal base frequency on the line, no?
 
@ratchetfreak Can't be. The base frequency is 100 or 133 MHz.
 
because that seems to be limited mostly by the bus design (in how it degrades the signal) and how fast the shift registers can clock stuff out
 
The traces between the ram and the CPU IMC have to be running at the higher frequency. (1600 MHz for 3200 MT/s)
My motherboard advertises up to 4400 MT/s. I assume that applies to the quality of the memory traces. But no CPU for that socket will go that high while retaining any reasonable level of stability.
 
@Mysticial I remember when I first played with overclocking a little bit, and couldn't get my machine stable at even close to the speeds others were getting--then found out their definition of "stable" was something on the order of "booted and got a screen shot of CPU-Z saved before it crashed." :-)
@Mysticial I guess that doesn't surprise me too much. With a CPU, if the gate delays in a pipeline stage add up to more than the clock period, there's pretty nearly no way for it to work at all. With DRAM, you have pretty minimal logic though, and a slower clock. With it (at a guess) it's mostly that more heat will increase leakage. At least in theory, that slow loss of stability could probably be fixed (in large part) by increasing the refresh rate a bit.
 
1:33 AM
@JerryCoffin Yeah. A lot of people on the OC forums report memory overclocks of 4000 MT/s or higher for Skylake X. My own system will boot at 4000 MT/s. But it will error within a few minutes of my Pi program.
Oct 8 '17 at 0:06, by Mysticial
user image
The system seems to have degraded a bit since July. Now even 3400 MT/s will fail - but only after 10+ hours under my pi program's super-optimizer.
My other Skylake X box (the 14-core) is IMC-limited to about 3400 MT/s. It's rock stable at 3400, but BSOD's on boot at 3600.
The IMC is a non-trivial circuit on the chip. So I'm not surprised that it exhibits the same "stability cliff" as the rest of the CPU.
 
@Mysticial It's probably also worth mentioning: from the vendor's viewpoint, that stability cliff is really what they want. If they've designed it so there's a lot of headroom for overclocking, that means they've probably left the leakage of some of the transistors higher than they really need to be for the rated clock speed. Lower leakage transistors would reduce the overclock headroom, but also reduce power consumption.
Of course, that assumes you're dealing with the maximum clock speed for which they designed. If you're dealing with something that's been speed binned lower (especially if they have enough CPUs that it may be in a lower bin without ever having been tested at a higher bin) then being able to run at a higher speed (that's still within the intended design speed) is perfectly reasonable.
 
@JerryCoffin In this case, these are top-binned (or almost top-binned) modules.
The lower binned stuff has a lot less spread and a sharper cliff. (i.e. rock stable at X multiplier and no post at X + 1)
 
@Mysticial Right now, I'd definitely expect that anything they're selling at a lower bin is in the lower bin because it failed at higher speed, so this is no surprise. A few years ago (in Intel land, anyway) that wasn't nearly so much the case--they had their process working well enough that probably 90+% of their processors could have passed tests for the top bin, so a lot got sold at slow bins without ever being tested for faster ones.
 
I also only have experience with the two extremes (lowest bin and highest bin). Of all the builds I've ever done, I only have one build with mid-bin memory. And I couldn't even hit stock on that because Ryzen sucks with memory.
@JerryCoffin Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too.
They also didn't like that everybody would buy the lowest bin and overclock it to the top bin. So starting with Sandy Bridge, they only unlocked the highest bin forcing you to buy that.
Now they bin by core count.
 
1:53 AM
@Mysticial Yeah--the sort of thing they could get away with pretty easily when the "competition" was Bulldozer (or thereabouts).
 
@JerryCoffin It's sooo nice that AMD is back. My compilation times have dropped soooo much over the past year. And I'm still using an Intel processor.
 
@Mysticial Yup--a huge benefit, even to those who haven't (and won't) ever buy one of their processors. If memory weren't so blasted expensive right now, I'd even have updated my box, despite it being only 6 years old (or so)...
 
Hello guys, I have python code that I need to execute but I am having syntex error could some one please take a look at it and help me out ?
 
2:12 AM
@JerryCoffin So I ended up biting the bullet on that last week. I spent $1600 on 8 x 16GB. I had been watching it for a while and snagged it on sale from ~$2000. This set of memory didn't exist a year ago and launched at something like $1500. And with Ryzen+ and Intel's refreshes coming this year, I don't see prices going down anytime soon - even if they've dropped a bit in the past month. So my finance training says to forget about how cheap ram used to be and get it now if I really need it.
 
What a site i could use to provide you guys with the code ?
 
@fsfh60 Probably none. I don't think anyone here is interested since this is the C++ room.
 
I went to the python chat none was there
 
Jan 30 '15 at 2:30, by Borgleader
"Hi I have a question about my retirement fund"
"Sir this is a convenience store..."
"I know but it's the only thing open at this hour"
 
my private mail server setting is somewhat stuffed with draft and sent subfolders everywhere
 
2:22 AM
@Ven we need to hand out more candy. I have a nice white van we can fill with some. :)
 
 
3 hours later…
5:34 AM
 
6:05 AM
@TelautonomousKitty :)
 
6:38 AM
@Mysticial Honestly, if I were still single, I probably would. Marriage has changed things though...
 
@jaggedSpire saw this little fellow at the chicken farm where I bought my chooks
 
6:59 AM
@JerryCoffin Time-wise? Financially? Or your wife saying no?
 
@Mysticial Wife not actually saying no, exactly, but being quite unhappy anyway.
 
@JerryCoffin Sounds like the same thing.
 
@Mysticial In essence, yeah--but without her having to actually take responsibility.
 
If you don't mind me asking, is she the dominant parent? In most of the couples that I've know of/observed, there's usually one partner/parent that dominates the family - though to varying degrees. And then there are other couples that are more on equal grounds who sort of go about independently and never get in each other's way.
 
@Mysticial She wants to be the dominant parent. I don't care about dominance, but I'm a programmer, so I place a strong emphasis on being clear and consistent, so I'm the one the kids really listen to.
 
7:16 AM
Oh you have the kids on your side. :) I think I can see which profile your family falls into...
 
family pecking order
 
@JerryCoffin Does she try to helicopter parent the kids? (if you don't mind me asking again)
 
@Mysticial I don't mind your asking. She doesn't have a job, so she's actually around them more than me. But they know if they complain enough, they can usually push her into things she's told them she won't do. She also pretty frequently makes threats about punishing them that she doesn't carry through with. I don't threaten nearly as dire of punishments, but they've figured out that I don't really make threats--I just tell them what will happen if they mis-behave.
And don't get me wrong: it's not like I'll ignore all possible explanations and extenuating circumstances--if something happened that honestly isn't their fault, I'm not going to punish them for it. But I try to make very clear both what the boundaries are, and what will happen if they cross them.
 
That's a lot more detail than I expected. Very interesting.
Ugh, 1:30. Need to sleep.
 
7:33 AM
@Mysticial G'night.
 
 
2 hours later…
Ven
10:02 AM
Hi lounge
@Mysticial Truly the omen of our time, and the time before that, and the time before that time, and...
 
Hi longe
 
Ven
hi loge
 
10:20 AM
Hi log
 
hi og
 
o hi o
 
10:35 AM
Soooo apparently hotmail now also has "security" which is as fucking damn annoying as the gmail one
stop forcing unwanted protection on non-sensible data plz .___.
 
Ven
10:45 AM
@Morwenn they pestered me once iwth that, but not anymore
 
nwp
@Morwenn Usually an e-mail address is a person's online identity. Once the e-mail gets taken over all accounts are gone too, so it makes some sense to force security onto people.
 
forcing stuff without any ability to disable it manually is never ok
especially when said security didn't exist before
 
nwp
Replace your e-mails with gists. No more annoying security garbage.
 
11:12 AM
aaa.asn.au ... a lot of a's in that website
 
12:02 PM
Good morning
 
hi @Shoe
 
Hey
 
 
2 hours later…
1:54 PM
Reading C++ CWG defect reports if scary
 
Ven
@Morwenn give us so nice stuff
 
it's not readily available, but some DRs apparently slightly alter overload resolution rules or break valid C++17 code
 
Ven
wat
 
the breaking one is about declaring a constructor in a class template as Foo<T>();
apparently this was valid to declare a default constructor while in C++20 constructors (and destructors) will only be allowed to use the injected class name to declare constructors and destructors
 
Ven
@Morwenn what
 
1:59 PM
template<typename T> struct Foo { Foo(); // legal }; vs. template<typename T> struct Foo { Foo<T>(); // illegal };
 
Ven
ah, alright
 
it's a sane restriction IMO but it might break code
which is why it will appear as a C++20 DR instead of a DR against previous standards
another DR says that we shouldn't be able to cv-qualify unnamed bitfields :p
 
another one pinpoints the fact that the standard never mentions that an instantiation of a static variable template is also static x)
 
 
2 hours later…
4:11 PM
@Morwenn what if I need to template parameters in my constructor that aren't needed for the object?
 
Ven
@Mgetz there's no way to not pass them anyway
 
@Ven I'm being facetious, in those cases you should probably use a construction function anyway
 
Ven
You write Foo<B> val; not Foo<B> val = Foo<B>::Foo(); i.e.
 
 
3 hours later…
7:24 PM
0
A: Is it possible to have an absolute zero CPU utilization?

Pranay DeepTo achive Zero cpu utilization you need to Shut it down. Following are the ways: Manually click on the shut down(on windows). You can create a batch file for the same. Pull the power cable out.(*Not recommended).

 
wow both the question and the answers are garbage
 
@Mysticial I would defer to agner on that one, honestly I'm pretty sure HALT is close enough
 
7:45 PM
I dont believe your explanation is correct. In all the other map types (including std::map and std::multimap), the iterator-erase overloads return an iterator to the element after the erase. There would be little reason to return that iterator in boost::container::flat_multimap if it is always invalidated. Using the key-erase overload is not an option in our application. — Ho Cheung 5 mins ago
"I don't know iterator invalidation and therefore your answer cannot be true."
@Mysticial try entering a black hole
Or just join the Amish
 
8:05 PM
I was wrong with my invalidated iterator hunch ;;; Pro Tip. Read all the relevant docs :)
 
@Mysticial SO needs a way to automatically migrate questions to Quora
 
8:37 PM
@Thomas McDonnell - rightfully so. — Jesper Juhl 18 secs ago
shots fired
 
8:49 PM
Your rubber duck wants to know what count++ and count = count + 1; do. — user4581301 15 mins ago
Love that comment
The lazy-web came back with this implementation which looks like it is much more heavy-duty. howardhinnant.github.io/combinations.html /cc @howard-hinnant — sehe 7 secs ago
 
 
2 hours later…
10:51 PM
@Mikhail It should be the default option.
 
11:30 PM
Heh, this is cool:
Made an SVG animated login avatar, with the help of some trigonometry & GSAP. #animation #UX #gsap https://codepen.io/dsenneff/pen/QajVxO https://t.co/IgpQrlS9RD
@thecoshman So, what's the results?
 
Opinon Poll: A getter function needs to acquire a mutex, so it cannot be const. Is it good or bad idea anyway to make it const and use const-cast on the mutex?
 
answer: almost certainly terrible design in the first place
 
11:46 PM
@Mysticial No. Use const getter and mutable mutex.
 
@Puppy The use case being that the getter needs to guard against concurrent writes.
 
@Mysticial I must agree with @Puppy here though. You should probably externalize the locking.
 
The solution I've been using is to simply make the getter non-const.
 
@Mysticial Which probably means that your various object responsibilities are fucked up.
it would be better to separate the raw logic and the lock into separate classes
then the caller can lock groups of operations or not as they need
 
@Puppy What if the purpose of the object is to be thread-safe?
 
11:50 PM
I mean, answer this: how is the result of the getter going to be useful if the result is going to be out-of-date (potentially) the moment it's received?
you have a getter but it can't actually reliably get anything, as it were.
 
@Puppy That assumes that the data can become invalid later. In this case, the data begins in an invalid state. Once it becomes valid, it stays valid. So it's one-directional.
 
is that enough?
if you get the validity of hte data and it shows as invalid, it could still become valid at any moment.
 
@Puppy If the data is invalid, you skip it. If the data is valid, you read it.
And it's okay to skip something that turns valid at the same time since you'll pick it up again on a future iteration.
 
hmm so it's more of an optimism thing
sounds to me like a ripe use case for an atomic flag
you don't really need to hold the mutex against all possible concurrent writes
 
@Puppy By mutex, I actually meant a spin-lock which is just a compare-swap on an atomic. But the overall concept stands.
 
11:58 PM
I mean, use a dedicated atomic for just this flag
then in the getter, just atomically read it
 

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