« first day (2281 days earlier)      last day (2653 days later) » 

12:01 AM
ETA
 
12:31 AM
I get to take tomorrow off if I work the time I would tomorrow tonight, because there's a storm coming in. I'll be online and responsive much later than usual.
 
@jaggedSpire How is it tomorrow off if you work tomorrow night
idgi
 
@LucDanton lol
bug aside the damage of this guardian is insane
 
@CheukKinSing bby youre my guardian
<3
 
12:47 AM
I main engineer (condi p/s, healing turret, bomb kit, elixir gun, thumper turret)
 
@CheukKinSing wot? that was like 3 1k+ hits and everything else missed or was blocked
 
yeah, all 3 hits are criticals 1k+
 
i.e. regular hits for ~800 tops, on a teef
 
I thought that's p good for a guardian
 
12:54 AM
it was all auto hits, nothing special
 
@StackedCrooked no such thing as static typing, types are static by definition
@LucDanton FINE
 
@CheukKinSing most non-cheese builds pick the Marauder amulet (i.e. the old berserker amulet)
@CheukKinSing I’m just curious what you would say if you saw an actual combo land
actually I did link you a video from the top NA guardian lol
 
nwp
@CheukKinSing tell that to python
 
python is unityped
not this conversation again please
@LucDanton lemme see
 
@CheukKinSing Static typing doesn't refer to the type being static, but to an object being statically bound to a particular type.
 
1:00 AM
@Borgleader I'm working that time tonight.
 
@JerryCoffin Objects are always statically bound to a particular type.
 
@CheukKinSing Well now there you're just plain wrong. Please read "Smalltalk: the Language and its Implementation" (for only one example) and when you have a clue what you're talking about, feel free to come back for further education.
 
lol
ITT people who've never had basic type theory introduction
 
@jaggedSpire Oh
RIP
 
@CheukKinSing it’s actually something like 3 guards against 2 guards aka the typical pvp match
 
1:21 AM
sup guys
 
My local coffee shop got bad wifi. I forgot how bad coffee tastes.
 
@CheukKinSing Oh, come on. You may be a little on the ignorant side, but I'm sure you know something (just not abut the subject at hand).
3
 
this is off topic, but i just found the advance function from the standard library
i freaking love it
what used to take liek 10 lines takes like 3 now :P
 
@Jeff Now find next (and prev) and that'll (probably) go down to 1.
 
yeah, std::next is nice
i needed advance for this tho
 
1:29 AM
for @jaggedSpire, when she comes back from work later
 
made a gamemode (infection), where on round begin a random player is chosen as the infected teams master
 
@Jeff Why? You need compatibility with ancient compilers?
 
/cc @Morwenn @Ven (aren't kitties precious? <3)
 
nah, but std::next doesn't fulfill my need for selecting a random player from my vector of players
advance did
i also abandoned my heavy usage of pointers, made my code so much cleaner
 
@Jeff How's that? next lets you do all the same things as advance, but also returns the result (in fact, it's defined as "Equivalent to: advance(x, n); return x;"
 
1:32 AM
oh shit really? im corrected then, my apologies
i thought it just moved to the next position
didn't think you could use rng's with it
 
@Jeff In ancient compilers it did. Anything up to date has a second parameter that lets you specify the distance to move, just like advance.
 
gotcha, thanks for that
that lets me check if i have a valid element from my vector before initializing the roudn
 
advance is kinda evil because it munges the argument
 
i learn something everytime i come here lol
had no idea next was updated to allow for a 2nd argument
 
1:38 AM
reduced it to this
 
wonder if de-de is the first one on the list
 
auto it = GetStage()->GetPlayerCount();
if(std::next(it, rand() % GetStage()->GetPlayerCount() != GetStage()->GetPlayers().end())
zombieMaster = (*it).first;
 
@Telkitty works correctly in the US
 
probably gross that im using rand(), but i think that'd work acceptably considering only 20 players can be in a match
 
weird then ...
@Mikhail are you using windows?
 
1:42 AM
Yes
 
lemme try from IE on windows, I am on my macbook using firefox right now
 
@Jeff Code looks rather ugly. the end() shouldn't happen because you shouldn't ' generate a random number outside the range to being with...
also it->first
 
ouch, that's ugly?
damn, i need to find a new team to work with then LOL
my code's way cleaner than theirs
 
@Mikhail LOL, you are right. It works fine through IE on windows
 
you're right, it shouldn't, but im trying to account for a player leaving at the last possible ms
 
1:45 AM
I had to wipe the eye cancer on a napkin
 
quick question if you dont mind
 
That sounds like a race condition
 
if i use (*it).first
that means im copying right?
in which case, if i clear my zombie's identifier
it'd remove that from the map right?
or would make that ptr a nullptr rather
 
@JerryCoffin I'd give you a free introduction to type systems but I'm sure you're smart enough to find one on your own! Hint: use the same little plastic keys you used to type your previous nonsense. :)
 
@Jeff I'm too lazy to read your question, but write paradigmatic code. Also check out chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/116940/c-questions-and-answers . Its basically milleniumbug answering C++ questions
 
1:49 AM
Alrighty (:
 
nwp
@Jeff That alone doesn't make a copy. Why don't you use it->first?
 
ahh that's right, my zombieMaster variable would have to be a ptr for that to occur
reason i use (*it).first, just a habit.
one of the guys on my project when he was teaching me stuff
showed me that
and i just stuck with it
 
@CheukKinSing If you wanted to do that, it'd help a lot if you had a clue what you were talking about. Point 1: "type theory" isn't simply one thing. It's a whole family. Point 2: in none of them of which I'm aware, is there anything that says that "everything called an object in every programming language must correspond to a single one of what we call a type".
In fact, type theory pretty much doesn't define anything named an "object" at all. Category theory uses something called an object, but it doesn't correspond closely to what's called an object in an object oriented programming language either (though category theory and type theory are actually pretty closely related despite starting out quite differently).
@CheukKinSing So, as I said before: go read something that's relevant, and when you get a clue, feel free to come back and apologize. Until that happens, we'll all know perfectly well that you remain clueless on this subject.
 
This basic misunderstanding if anything shows you've either forgotten or never understood how types work and your insistence that you do is most amusing
Also, why would I apologise for your shortcomings? Please.
 
oh dear
Also hello :O
Did I come in at a bad time?
 
1:56 AM
hi
is GMT+5 time same as IST
 
@Nemo Not particularly. Or at least no worse than usual. @CheukKinSing makes semi-idiotic noises most times he hasn't been kicked.
 
GMT+5:30 I think
 
@Nemo okay
 
@Nemo So how are you lately?
 
Ad hominem is when you really run out of arguments, which is a common theme with you it seems.
 
1:58 AM
you guys and your big words
lol jk
 
Not too bad! Was studying template policies and I realized stack overflow has a chat :D
He is spot on though, type systems are wicked complex. They say those that have mastered type systems have seen the secrets of the universe
type theory*
 
@CheukKinSing Ad hominem has a specific meaning of which you're also apparently ignorant. It means specifically an argument of the form: "This person is evil, therefore his/her arguments should be ignored." Your false accusation fits well with your pattern of misusing terms of which you're ignorant though.
 
Anybody got the source for GPU Computing Gems handy? I was hoping to find the source for hpcg.purdue.edu/papers/Stava2011CCL.pdf
 
Ad hominem isn't about being evil, is there a single word in the dictionary that you know the definition of? I'm starting to wonder.
 
Oh my lord. Just answered a question about typing, and a lot of people equate typing systems to OOP. There's so many different types of type systems and a lot of different ways to compare them. Python, for example, is typed, but it's typed in the sense that a pidgeon is kind of like a seagull.
 
2:02 AM
Both are jerks. :I
 
@Mikhail I haven't looked recently, but nVidia used to have the full text and source to the GPU Gems books on developer.nvidia.com.
 
@Aaron3468 ah yes, the famous bird typing
 
Hehe. I was actually just reading about that. They call it duck typing on wikipedia
 
lol @ my project managers statement just now
 
"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck"
 
2:06 AM
Sic : oh and we need a new filesystem/encryption for v8 too. gotta make sure it's safe this time
kinda asking for the impossible lol
 
...oh dear.
Quick, rot13! IT'S UNCRACKABLE
 
lol
i mean, idk why he thinks we can do that
if multibillion dollar corporatiosn can't keep their files safe forever
then how can a bunch of amateur devs
 
That's really a false analogy
 
i don't see how, these corporations hire programmers far better than your average programmer.
my team isn't even average, we're far below average lol. so, by that, we have no hope of making a great filesystem.
8
 
My last boss gave me a good tip in that regard. "Leverage what you can lose with what you can implement. Security's about keeping out the filthy casuals, not the dedicated hackers."
 
2:10 AM
Our current filesystem keeps out about 95% of players.
 
That being said, why not just use a tried n tested encryption lib?
 
@Nemo Better use double ROT13 for extra protection.
 
we used 7z's lib iirc?
i'd have to go back and look at the code to be sure tho
 
Wait, you're trying to implement client-side security? lol
 
ikr
 
2:10 AM
@JerryCoffin BRILLIANT.
:p
 
it has its uses
you dont want people to get your files necessarily
 
Client-side and security are antonyms (another word for Jerry)
 
stops most players from touching our files
 
What game, out of curiosity?
 
of course we have server sided antihack measures, that takes care of preventing cheaters.
well, right now gunZ: the duel. it's a side project i do
im about to start a new project with one of my friends tho
he's making a mobile mmo
 
2:12 AM
You mean you made a private server or work for the official company?
 
pserver atm. afaik the official company itself shut down a couple years ago.
maiet entertainment no longer exists in any form.
 
I used to work on a private server for FlyFF, if anyone's ever heard of that glorious mess.
 
im familiar with flyff
pserver work is fun but it seems kinda liek a gray area
 
@CheukKinSing You just don't stop spouting nonsense, do you? For some types of security, client-side is necessary to provide anything meaningful at all.
 
in terms of legality
 
2:14 AM
Not really
 
I am counting on my apps/websites being too little known, so no one would be bothered to hack them. Seriously it's not worth any ones effort to hack them.
 
Yeah. I seen it as an opportunity to expand my skills in an actual live environment, which was super fun
 
It's outright illegal if for profit
 
@JerryCoffin out of curiosity: what types?
 
yeah it's a non-profit pserver
we dont get any money
 
2:15 AM
Also, just to show you how bad the source was, check this out
 
+ since maiet entertainment no longer exists
i think we're well within the safety zone
lol wtf nemo ;o
 
Assuming there aren't any copyright holders left
 
Right? x3
 
if there are however, i would assume we'd just get a cease & desist
in which case, i remove mc ode from the project, and break out
 
@JerryCoffin So, I bootleged the book but the link to the online resources appears down. I should write a poor review on Amazon.
 
2:16 AM
@JerryCoffin Please handwave away your fascinating point of views
 
@milleniumbug An obvious example would be where I'm doing an online backup of my files. I must encrypt them before I send them over the wire to get meaningful security at all.
 
@milleniumbug Not game related types
 
@Nemo There's no difference between these two.
:|
 
@CheukKinSing You clearly have some degree of understanding, but your comments here are all over the place in terms of accuracy. Just relax and listen, we're all competent in our small fields of programming and there's no need to attack people you might learn from :)
 
I should nap.
 
2:17 AM
In multiplayer giving client any authority is dumb and you should only do it if you absolutely can't squeeze more performance out of your backend
 
@Rapptz That's why it's funny. The code was FULL of stuff like that.
 
im not competent in my field LOL
 
Literally entire folders of commented out code
 
i know just barely enough that i can eithermake somethign work, or create a crash.
 
@CatPlusPlus Even for games, there are a few bits and pieces you just about need to do client-side to get decent security. For example, a secure login normally requires a challenge-response, where the server sends out a random number, the client encrypts, and sends back the result.
 
2:18 AM
well, gunz in specific
is hard to protect anyways
 
@Aaron3468 Indeed, that's exactly what I'm trying to tell Jerry! But he seems to think he is right, when he is actually misguided. I'd gladly clear up his misunderstandings, but the aggressiveness is putting me off.
 
they relied too much on the client for information
my team did what we could to protect some of the client sided stuff
 
@JerryCoffin If you could call TLS sending out a random number
 
only thing that isn't protected well is the ondamaged functions.
i plan on rewriting that to send a request to the server
 
Nobody does challenge-response auth anymore, there's no point over just securing the transport in general
 
2:19 AM
where i can then do checks on the shooter/target position and calculate damage
then send the response
 
We had to use encryption on some of our client files, specifically data files for items. We'd release rare items and tease people so they'd go get em but a lot of the times, people would just use a tool to extract the files and just read everything out, spoiled it for everyone.
If a hacker got ahold of it, not much we could do. But keeping out all the luddites was our main goal there.
 
And if not TLS then it was static RSA key setup
I don't recall any game that'd do c-r
 
besides, it makes perfect sense to encrypt your files, if just for the fact you dont want people getting your shit
 
@CatPlusPlus You can do the challenge-response in something like TLS, but there most certainly is a point in doing it separately from securing the transport in general. Security and authentication are two completely separate things. Challenge/response is about authentication.
 
which i don't lol
 
2:21 AM
Just like how a lock on your front door will keep out the curious neighbors and casual theifs, but a person with a battering ram won't have any problem getting in.
Lock or not :p
 
pretty much
you can't make anything 100% secure
but you can stop most people from getting into your stuff
 
Well, sorta
 
also that define you showed me
why the hungarian notation
 
The only way to make data 100% secure is to pull out the hard drive and smash it to pieces with a hammer
Which is so cathartic oh my gosh
 
@JerryCoffin The point of c-r is not sending the password in clear. With TLS that is irrelevant consideration save for some very specialised 0.00001% use cases
 
2:23 AM
omdl cat++ I LOVE THAT
 
user406009
Wouldn't encrypting your game files be completely pointless though?
 
user406009
The client has to get the key anyways.
 
@CheukKinSing Jerry may be wrong twice a day, but he's a damn good clock. On the topic of typing systems, you've shown a bit of naivety, a bit of skill, and a disproportionate investment in your opinions. Jerry basically won for keeping his cool with a balanced perspective.
 
Plus c-r is more complicated to do correctly
 
user406009
(somehow)
 
2:23 AM
Certainly not important for a vidya game
(Actually I can't think of any reason to do c-r over TLS)
 
(c-r? I have some basic security experience but that's a new phrase for me)
 
It's pointless if the person trying to get into your files knows anything
 
@Lalaland That's basically what DRM is
 
but it stops the noobs from getting in
 
Well, the current Denuvo crop
 
user406009
2:24 AM
@CatPlusPlus Yes, and that takes tons of effort and is eventually cracked.
 
@Aaron3468 Did you mean: "he's a damn good cock".
 
Maybe not all files, but executable certainly
 
@CatPlusPlus Actually, it's a lot more common than that. There are quite a few things where you need to ensure that the client is the right person, but don't care at all whether other people can read the stream.
 
Also a balanced wrong perspective is still wrong.
 
(Are these chats moderated?)
 
2:25 AM
@JerryCoffin That is also a part of TLS, but it's hardly c-r auth
 
@Nemo There are room owners (whose names show up in italics).
 
user406009
@Nemo Challenge response authentication. It's where you authenticate yourself not by directly providing your credentials, but by being able to complete a task, see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge%E2%80%93response_authentication
 
@Nemo Yes, by mostly garbage mods.
 
oh OH
I know challenge response
Just not c-r x3
Er, that c-r is challenge response. To clarify
 
Only place I've actually seen c-r used was SASL and that fairly complicated Stanford thing nobody uses
Well okay HTTP has digest too
Nobody uses that either
 
2:27 AM
@CheukKinSing ...and that would be a personal attack. You need to cool it.
 
I feel like the new girl in a room full of all the cool kids ever ;w;
 
@Jeff Pretty much. In an ideal world, the client just renders a view, and takes input. Sure, encrypt the aesthetic files, but the real danger is players getting a hand on the source for a server. That's where they can start making exploits and cutting into your business with private servers
 
That happens literally never
All private servers are reveng-based emulators
Which is why some games try to encrypt packets with static key setup but that's not really much of a hindrance
 
user406009
@JerryCoffin I think you would have to be pretty careful about man in the middle attacks with that sort of setup though.
 
@JerryCoffin ... What the hell? You're not a mod, are you? You're a room owner. Big difference. Big ego much? Stop the power trips. You need to chill. Right now.
 
2:29 AM
...Wow.
 
@CheukKinSing Personal attack doesn't mean you were necessarily attacking me.
 
@Aaron3468 right. the main point of encryptiong the client files is for model/textures/etc protection.
 
Kicking someone is a serious offense that should be used only in extreme cases and not because your vast ego was brushed the wrong way
 
which doesn't do much, bc people always find a way of getting to those files
 
Nobody encrypts models or textures
What's the point of that
 
2:30 AM
i guess i should be more specific then
im talking about a custom file format
 
Encrypting models and textures is 100% pointless
 
containers
 
There are programs out there that can extract them from memory in a snap
 
That's not a security thing
It's usually just reinventing the wheel thing
 
@CheukKinSing Tell you what. How about if you flag me for my "serious offense"?
 
2:31 AM
Or very specific feature sets but mostly reinventing the wheel
 
i look at it as a way to secure some of the models i want players not to have
which eventualy people get, but it prolongs the inevitable atleast
 
Sadly there's no reliable way to do that
 
Nobody goes into packing files into custom archive format thinking "oh ho ho ho now nobody will get to my files"
 
Yeah, reverse eng is much more common. Honestly, the client is the weak link if it handles any computation it shouldn't. Wallhacks, etc. become possible then. It's trivial to crack info on the client like textures, etc.
 
oh i know people will
 
2:32 AM
Unless you're just bonkers and do something crazy x3
 
which is where my original point comes into play
the project manager asks the impossible
 
@JerryCoffin How about you learn what flags and kicks are for? Also drink a big, fresh glass of organic water to keep your susceptible self well hydrated.
 
user406009
You know, you could just not include those models in the game.
 
In shader vector unpacking or something
 
@CatPlusPlus For one obvious example, quite a few SMTP servers require authentication, even over non-private connections (to prevent spammers from using the server).
 
2:32 AM
prevent people from ever getting the files
he asks that when it can't be done lol
 
@JerryCoffin Yes? I never said auth is not needed, I said nobody does challenge-response
 
@CatPlusPlus Do people still use DH key exchange?
 
user406009
If you are manually using security primitives like DH key exchange, you are doing it wrong.
 
That stuff was super neat, it's amazing what you can do with math ;w;
 
user406009
This is why we have TLS
 
2:35 AM
Oh yeah I know it's a primitive
I'm just wondering if it's been replaced or not
I like taking things apart and poking at their electronic organs ouo
 
I mean maybe clients do pick digest auth on SMTP because it's SASL and it's there, but it's super pointless because you should secure the transport anyway, at which point you can use PLAIN and be done with it
 
@Nemo In the same vein: do people still use computers
 
@CatPlusPlus Auth, when done separately from security, often involves a challenge response. For example, challenge-response is a required part of OMDR (on-demand mail relay--RFC 2645, which gets used pretty much constantly).
 
@CheukKinSing Pats
Silly. =u=
 
Man, I'm impressed Cheuk is still here. He's been poking the wasp's nest since he got here
 
2:38 AM
2:45 left. Send halp
 
Fine maybe that fits in that 0.1% specialised cases
 
Oh he's just having a grumpisode. He just needs some tlc =u=
 
@CatPlusPlus Why should I load down my machine (and the server) with encrypting and decrypting the whole stream, if my only interest is in ensuring that only authorized clients can use the server?
 
@Aaron3468 Cheuk is my family name, not first name. FYI.
 
Because it's cheap and less error-prone
And because you need to authenticate both ways
 
user406009
2:40 AM
@JerryCoffin Without the encryption, how do you prevent a man in the middle attack?
 
MITM is prevented by authentication not encryption
 
@CheukKinSing Noted. Feel free to resume (un?)righteous indignation the next time I make the honest mistake, now that I'm aware
 
That's not indignation, it's a mere correction. You are free to feel offended.
 
boy this chat isn't friendly today is it
my goodness
 
I'm pretty used to programmers arguing. It's just like religion. x3
 
2:42 AM
this chat isn't known for its friendliness
 
Everyone has their own view of what's right and wrong.
 
maybe it's ignorant of me but
a lot of programmers ive met haven't been friendly people
not really sure where that comes from
 
It's from all the basement dwelling.
:3c
I hear female programmers (HAH) choose a mate by the size and thickness of the males neckbeard.
 
programmers don't need to be friendly, customer services jobs require people to be friendly
 
why wouldn't you want to be friendly?
 
2:44 AM
...**Used to work for Xbox phone tech support**
 
@Lalaland At the very least, a MITM would have to be an authorized user him/her self.
 
you can't very well make good friends if you're a jerk lol
 
Computers ... are very unfriendly. Take compilers for example, are never shy or have any shame to point out your slightest typos
 
of course, in my erxperience, most programmers aren't very personal people
so they probably dont care about that kind of stuff
 
(Most of) you guys seem pretty nice though ouo
 
2:45 AM
I dunno. The internet just isn't a friendly place. Anywhere people can build sandcastles, you'll find the one kid who thinks he's a king and can kick down everybody else's
 
compilers are jerks by your definition, but you NEED compilers, not the other way around, sad isn't it
 
How is that internet specific
 
I just don't see a point in not being friendly tbh
Life's too short to have a stick shoved up your ass all the time lol
 
If you don't authenticate the server MITM is trivial and c-r won't save you
 
@Jeff Tell that to gay people
 
2:46 AM
May 14 '16 at 7:33, by Mysticial
You should buy a compiler option. It gives you the right, but not the obligation to tell your compiler to fuck off when it tries to enslave you.
 
@Jeff we are fine with this environment, if you have a problem, maybe this isn't place for you
 
Eh, while not internet specific, it's worse here simply because we're not talking face to face. Unconsciously we don't see each other as actual people, even though our conscious mind recognizes otherwise
 
I never said I wasn't fine with it. therein liesmy point LOL
unnecessary statements made due to lack of friendliness or ability to read the conversation on an emotional/intellectual level :P
 
Use TLS. Or Noise maybe if it fits your thing
This whole computational cost bullshit hasn't been important for a very long time now
 
user406009
I mean, I guess if you sign every message (including the number) then that eliminates the dangers of MITM as they can neither modify/add/remove messages.
 
2:48 AM
None of that is trivial
Authentication without encryption lets you forge authenticated messages
 
user406009
How would you forge an authenticated message?
 
I'm finding this discussion about encryption informative. God forbid I have to roll my own authentication ^^;
 
In MITM you are the client to the original server, and you are the server to the original client
 
user406009
Yeah, but if every message is signed, then there is no issue.
 
user406009
You also have to sign the message number as well to prevent reordering, drops and replays.
 
2:51 AM
If you don't authenticate the server, how do you check if the message has been signed by the original server, and not the MITM
 
@Aaron3468 It's good to know how the insides work, for debugging and optimizing. At least imo. ouo
 
user406009
Well yeah, you would have to authenticate the server as well.
 
@CatPlusPlus I can't agree at all. Yes, it's pretty trivial for a client. No, it's not trivial at all for a server.
 
user406009
All messages on both sides would have to be constantly signed with appropriate protected message numbers.
 
It is extremely trivial for a server
More so than clients these days thanks to mobile garbage
@Lalaland Which is to say, use TLS
 
user406009
2:54 AM
Well, it would pretty much be most of TLS without the encryption part.
 
user406009
And whoever wrote or used such a system would probably screw up somewhere.
 
I seem to remember an attack on authentication-without-encryption, but eh
You want the stream to be private anyway
 
user406009
The main attacks I remember for authentication without encryption were replay attacks and using shitty methods of signing (like a direct SHA1 or SHA2 hash or whatnot)
 
@CatPlusPlus Who wants what stream to be private? Heaven forbid that I be seen as unfriendly, but you seem to be making a pretty general statement, and there seems to be a fair amount of infrastructure in regular use that indicates otherwise.
 
@CatPlusPlus TIL about Noise
 
2:58 AM
As it stands you want 1. not send your password shit as plain text and 2. be sure you're talking to server you actually wanted to talk, and everything beyond "just use TLS for everything" is overcomplicated, specialised, and not worth considering for majority of people
 
...oh cursing is okay in here? OuO
 
Added benefit of not revealing your communication to the entire world is always a plus
However trivial it is
More random garbage on the wires is better for everyone
 
i assume it's okay
i curse in here a lot and never got called out for it
 

« first day (2281 days earlier)      last day (2653 days later) »