« first day (2099 days earlier)      last day (2841 days later) » 

12:00 AM
seriously, if you can back your arguments with evidence, don't defend immigration not being positive
 
we are talking about a shitton of people
not 20000 every once in a while
 
@Shoe I'm going to ask you again to slow down. Without any critical thinking, just blurting out tendentious stuff, there is no conversation, and it's just a xenophobic rant.
 
if europe was what it was before, we would cooperate with each other
 
@ChemiCalChems It doesn't need to be positive.
 
but because of people like you, europe has gone to shit
 
12:00 AM
wat
 
@sehe right, i worded that wrong
 
@ChemiCalChems Erm. You might want to rectify that blatant assumption
 
im talking about the spirit of cooperation that europe had before
i didn't word that right either
 
"people like you". Come on, if you expect Shoe to start listening a bit, maybe don't get on his level
 
i'm in favour of USE
 
12:02 AM
ok, i'll try again
 
what are you talking about
 
Just back from four days in the woods.
 
@EtiennedeMartel there was another terrorist attack in france few hours ago
welcome back
 
@Shoe what i meant was cooperation is the essence of humanity, and europe was based on that principle when it was first created
 
@EtiennedeMartel wb
 
12:03 AM
@Shoe It's kinda hard to not notice before reaching the lounge, even if you've been off the grid
 
blaming terrorism on innocent people who are being killed by it is about the worst thing we can do for them
wb @EtiennedeMartel
 
@ChemiCalChems Shoe likely does cooperate a lot. He's just saying he doesn't like the fear that is caused by terrorism
 
look at USA
 
On a modern Intel CPU each hyperthread is about 20% of a "real" core? Is that a fair number? http://www.anandtech.com/show/2594/8
/cc @Mysticial
 
they are the target number one, and yet they have almost no terrorist attacks
is it perhaps because they control the fuck out of everybody that comes in?
 
12:04 AM
@sehe i understand that, but its not fault of the refugees, they are victims
 
@Shoe yeah. They have lots of bigots and they already are yapping just like you
> "When will we learn. It's only going to get worse" - Trump
Don't you see? That's the GOAL of the terrorists.
 
and because they ask for a detailed plan before they get them in?
 
@Shoe 9/11
 
@Borgleader 24% for my Pi program on 4-core Haswell.
The thing is literally filled with cache misses everywhere. So HT rocks.
 
also there are cities on the east that are controlled by nato
 
12:06 AM
what is funny is that USA caused all of this turmoil by conquering irak
 
@Shoe They aren't target number one.
@ChemiCalChems Preaching to the choir
 
are you serious?
 
they are definitely more of a target than france
or europe in general
which has little to no influence in what's going on
 
why would they?
 
12:07 AM
compared to other players
 
@Shoe Yeah, I know.
 
europe is closer, and france is fighting the war
 
@Shoe They want to antagonize. They want to separate. They want "us" to think "they" are muslims. They want "us" to declare war. So it drives real muslims to extremists for safety. They want that, in order to create "muslim" states - read: be ultimately powerful in their region and exploit that
 
because USA is actively bombarding them?
 
france is a better objective
 
12:07 AM
perhaps
I dunno
 
@Shoe You live in the past
 
it might have to do with a little thing you might have heard of
it's called WAR ON ISIS
 
@Shoe hahaha. France is also actively bombing. It's about this (^^^)
 
jesus christ
@sehe yes, they made a couple of attacks too, but nothing compared to the systematic attacks from USA and now Russia
 
you don't need to "jesus christ" people who disagree with you.
 
12:09 AM
you need to give arguments against them
 
are you honestly comparing the investment of france and USA in this war?
 
yes i am
 
go ahead without me then
 
france has former colonies there, thats why they got into this
 
lol
 
12:10 AM
@Shoe I think you don't "get" terrorism. You're trying to make it something "fair" (US only get retaliation for their warfare). That's not how this works.
 
don't put words in my mouth
 
oooh is something amusing going down
I do like being amused
 
bigotry
 
if you find 70 people dying amusing, then yes
 
@Shoe You're insinuating we shouldn't look at the facts if you know they're different. Comparing is good. I'll compare it whenever I need to
 
12:11 AM
@Shoe same for refugees in their homelands
do you know how many people die everyday in syria?
irak?
 
that has nothing to do with anything
 
@Shoe Hahaha. Please see your own rhetorics. It's full of strawmen. It's a bloddy field of them
 
oh no?
doesnt it?
 
I'd go so far as to say being amused is my favorite activity
 
@sehe comparing france and USA in this case is hilariously stupid
 
12:11 AM
but no
 
@Shoe Actually. Those explain the refugees. You know. The only thing you started this discussion with
 
mass casualties do not actually amuse me
 
@Shoe Ok. I'll be hilariously stupid if it allows me to observe the facts.
 
let's see these facts
lol
 
France bombs in Syria and the region.
Many allied forces join there.
 
12:13 AM
Mine is a pettier evil
 
what about them?
 
...bombs tend to kill people
 
Also, to think that in isolation made Europe a target for extremist terrorism, is naive.
6 mins ago, by sehe
@Shoe They want to antagonize. They want to separate. They want "us" to think "they" are muslims. They want "us" to declare war. So it drives real muslims to extremists for safety. They want that, in order to create "muslim" states - read: be ultimately powerful in their region and exploit that
The objective is to expand the rule of extremist regime. They want more land. So they have more tax income. And more natural resources. And more brainwashables.
 
@sehe I know that
 
The objective is to get the west to make a fool of themselves and do ugly deeds, so "mild" muslims can be polarized and recruited for their course
It's just foul play.
 
12:16 AM
I have nothing against integrated muslims
In fact I have a nice muslim family right above me at the moment
 
Who said anything to the extent
 
@Shoe then allow them to integrate
 
Great people
Integration is not simple
It's not cheap
 
there are lives on the line
 
It's not feasable with the numbers of people we are talking about
@ChemiCalChems Do you think I don't fucking know that?
 
12:17 AM
if europe worked as a team, it would, like i said before
 
Do you think I like the idea of them dying?
 
@Shoe Hah. I love how you can just bake up facts.
 
@Shoe i thought i'd remind you since you are talking about money
 
@Shoe Irrelevant. "Don't put words in my mouth", remember
 
@Shoe No, but you let them die anyway
 
12:17 AM
@sehe Please show me how it's feaseable
@ChemiCalChems Yes, money are necessary you know
Things cost money
 
@Shoe People can integrate by themselves. People /will/, given half a chance.
That's been documented for ages.
 
@Shoe money is a construct made by society, things dont cost money in of themselves, you know
 
lol
 
years ago we went to the river to get water, and it was free
 
oh boy
Have I just spent more than 20 minutes talking with this guy
That's such a dumb decision on my part
 
12:19 AM
@Shoe prove me wrong, dont play falacies on me
 
Europe has a tendency to let people witter away in asylum centres (read: camps) where they are not allowed to integrate.
 
don't tell me how stupid i am, prove me that i'm stupid
 
@ChemiCalChems I have no time or will power to explain to you that "years ago" and now are very different times
 
@ChemiCalChems He doesn't need to. The fact that he throws mud, just shows he's out of arguments
 
Go read a book or something
OH wait
You might need to pay for that book
 
12:20 AM
@Shoe i read much more than you, it has been shown by the bigot posture you've chosen to defend
 
ok
 
@Shoe i do, or i can download it from the internet
 
and it's gone
 
i do believe in money
 
@sehe where would you move them?
 
12:21 AM
@Shoe I'll grant you this one. The line of reasoning is too remote. He does have a point, but he failed to make it (by stretching the analogy way too far or so)
 
im just saying money isnt over people's lives
never
 
you know what's interesting
 
@Shoe Anywhere. Just like any other immigrant. Just don't say "Uhoh - our bureaucracy can't handle you right now... I guess that means you'll be bored for a few years. You will be stripped of any social status and appreciation for your contributions (because you will not contribute), you'll be in uncertainty about your future every single day" etc.
@ChemiCalChems That's a value, not a fact.
 
@sehe What does it mean "anywhere"?
You have a bunch of people to place somewhere
 
Also, feasibility is not about the money
 
12:24 AM
Where do you put them?
 
@Shoe as a matter of fact, there are tons of empty homes here in spain that no body has interest in buying
 
> Just like any other immigrant.
In houses. Presumably.
 
What houses?
Built specifically for them?
 
The same you live in
Yes they'll need welfare. Just like you if you didn't have a job.
 
@Shoe easy answer here in spain
 
12:25 AM
And then they'll have a chance to develop and flourish.
 
Who builds them? With what money do we build them?
 
And some won't.
 
And meanwhile they are built, where do we put them?
 
@Shoe with the rent they'll pay when they are in those houses
 
@Shoe I don't know whether Italy has a housing problem. Certainly doubtful whether that excuses asylum "detention" camps. I'm not even sure Italy treats them that badly though.
 
12:26 AM
What if these group of houses become like bronx regions mostly due to poverty?
Are we really integrating them or isolating them?
 
It's bad in the Netherlands, AFAIK
@Shoe What if people poison the discussion with fear of the uncertain?
 
@Shoe letting them live is whats important right now
 
@Shoe We are not integrating them.
 
I'm asking questions
 
We might allow them to integrate
 
12:27 AM
How?
 
@Shoe Loaded questions are loaded questions
@Shoe Like you.
 
Like me? I never needed to integrate?
I was born where I currently live
 
the USA Department of Homeland Security said there were more than 11 million illegal immigrants in the USA at the start of 2012, and the population of the USA is ~320 million. For comparison, the EU has a population of 520 million, and there are 11 million Syrian refugees.
Obviously, they're not entirely comparable--the USA has got its immigrants via a steady flow over decades, and the Syrian civil war only started in 2011.
 
It's not rocket science. If a new kid comes into your primary school class, the group allows them to integrate. They'll find a role
 
I've always spoken the language other people know here
 
12:28 AM
@Darklighter welcome to the show!
 
@sehe What if instead of one kid you have a thousand new kids?
 
we are currently experiencing political differences, please stand by
6
 
I'm not sure if you understand this
But the problem is the number of people
Not the integration process itself
 
@Shoe i repeat, if the european union acted as a group and cooperated between countries, numbers would not be a problem
what is being done is saying NO NO we cant hold any more and NO NO they have less immigrants there
they are throwing the ball onto other peoples roofs
thats not how problems are solved
 
@Shoe What if you don't blow things out of proportions? How about. 5 kids. It was about a class. 5 out of ~30 is a handsome 16%
 
12:31 AM
disagree if you will
 
That's already way disproportionate
 
It's not about percentages
 
@Shoe Patronize me, harder. I love it
 
Adding a table and a chair in that metaphor costs a lot of money
 
@ChemiCalChems I feel this way too. The point of terrorists is exactly to make that impossible. They are poisoning the relations with fear. Making confrontation more likely.
 
12:32 AM
it's funny because 11 million people in an area of 520 million people will cause more problems than 11 million people in an area with 320 million. /s
 
We are letting them win.
Making them, in fact.
 
@jaggedSpire if they happen to cause problems, that is
 
@Shoe So, what is it about then? If proportions don't matter, then you are free to blow things out of proportions. I don't think that's fair discussion
 
Read my message below
 
but there isn't one below your message stating to read your message below
 
12:34 AM
@Shoe True. In NL there would be schools with vacancies, though, so it's not exactly that large of a problem, but yeah. More pupils, more education costs.
 
well not one of yours
 
More parents, more tax income.
@jaggedSpire Statistically :)
 
allowing those kids to become educated will in fact be beneficial towards the country's economy in the long run
we are not spending money, we are investing
 
Ok, it's necessary to accept them
 
@ChemiCalChems Will be beneficial. Period. Even if they return to their home country later.
 
12:36 AM
Still, they are a huge problem
 
@ChemiCalChems We're giving them purpose. A reason to feel good. To be grateful. To give back.
 
@sehe true, its a win win, if they stay here, they help, if they go there, they dont become terrorists
 
@Shoe Yup. They're what you call a challenge!
@ChemiCalChems You don't know. I meant, just while they're here.
 
We don't have a plan
And integration is not nearly as easy as you make it
 
@Shoe jfk said "we chose to go to the moon not because it was simple, but because it was hard"
 
12:37 AM
And they are coming by the thousands every year
 
@ChemiCalChems Even if the parents can't get a job. If they're traumatized for life. If they're afraid, depressed and won't learn the language. Even then, if they see the kids of their country men get every chance, it will be a reason to be thankful.
 
In a period when there are not even enough jobs for the population you already have
 
@sehe i agree completely, thanks for pointing this out
 
@Shoe I never said it's easy. But it's always possible. That's not the issue.
 
And are probably not going to rise up again
It doesn't look possible to me tbh
 
12:38 AM
wow the comparison with the USA keeps getting better
 
Not in the long run
 
@Shoe yeah. That's tough. The way Italy looks these weeks, it seems fair they might get a more lenient bargain w.r.t refugee "quota"
 
@Shoe quite the opposite, the more in the long run you look, the better it becomes
 
I would like to see how many of these get actually integrated
 
@Shoe I feel for you. I can't really imagine what it is to worry about your economy - I mean, seriously worry - and then have to wonder about the refugee challenges.
 
12:40 AM
I have a very hard time thinking it's more than 0.2% of the refugees
Very hard time
 
But as the great US mantra goes: every hardship brings new opportunities
 
@Shoe everybody is born the same, you had to integrate and learn the language and social values of your country
 
Quotes are not gonna help anybody
 
All them kids needing chairs and education, mean more jobs too. It's not a onesided story
@Shoe Bitter rejections for superficial reasons are?
 
Realism does
Consider it bitter or whatever you please
 
12:42 AM
@Shoe realism is people are dying, and we can help and we aren't helping because of economic reasons
 
@Shoe lolwut. "It's not about percentages" - Quickly draws a percentage from his ass thin air
 
realism is not saying we can't help because it's impossible, thats lying
 
I clearly said I'm guessing it's no more than that
Can you read
 
@Shoe So, labeling something someone said "a quote" in order to dismiss it is "reaslism"?
@Shoe yes. That's why I responded!
 
@sehe No, the other messages are
 
12:43 AM
@ChemiCalChems I think that's a bit of an oversimplification. The US caused the problem by invading Iraq and Afghanistan. Seriously though, I think trying to trace problems in the mideast to any single event really is over-simplifying things (horribly).
 
Can you listen? (Don't answer that)
@Shoe Oh. I missed the other quote then.
 
I've said I don't believe are many
 
@JerryCoffin true, but people wouldn't have the need of revenge if it weren't for those major events, the west didn't have anything to do there until then
 
The percentage is obviously there as a reference
I'm not claiming is any sort of fact
Which you would have got if you were able to read
 
@Shoe then why should we bring it into a debate like it's gonna be useful?
i think 1% of prostitutes are cute
k
 
12:46 AM
Fuck me you piss me off some much sehe
I'm so disappointed
 
Come on. Lighten up. It is weird that you get defensive over a silly made percentage when your response to a similar thing was "It's not about percentages". Just because you're tired and aren't in the mood, doesn't mean I don't get to point that out (without getting choffed)
 
"It's not about percentages" was in reference to what you said about the metaphor. I said that percentages don't reflect well in that metaphor.
 
... Whatever.
 
That doesn't mean nothing ever is gonna be about percentages
No matter how much you like to quote me out of context
Come the fuck on man
 
Your's was ridiculous. Don't make it important.
 
12:48 AM
just saying, all of this sparked off from the attack on nice, which has not been confirmed to have been perpetrated by isis or any islamic terrorist group for that matter, has it?
 
It wasn't important. I laughed about it. I didn't even dismiss the point.
 
@Shoe i smell keemstar
 
@ChemiCalChems I'm not sure. It sparked of Shoe pondering that he starts to have doubts about the idea of accepting many refugees
 
We have to accept them
Morally speaking
 
yes
and it is also possible and beneficial for everyone, so why not go ahead?
 
12:49 AM
I don't share the wind of optimism about it that you share
"We'll make dances together and integrate them all, yay"
 
Dooms theories: "It's not gonna end well. We have no plan. We don't have a choice. It can't work". Come on, just lie down and stop eating. We're fucked anyway?
 
It's not really my mood at the moment
 
I'm sorry about that. I do appreciate you sharing that. Because it made me realize, we don't have it that bad. Yet.
 
"We'll integrate them one by one, just like you" was the tip that had me over
 
@Shoe are you any different than them?
 
12:51 AM
Great. I hope that means the thought will linger and you might get back to it once when you're feeling less gloomy
 
It's the sort of "I want to be blind about things" that pisses me off so much coming from people I consider smart as fuck
 
@Shoe aren't you pissed off at yourself?
 
@Shoe And no "we" won't "integrate anyone". People integrate.
 
s/integrate/help integrate/
 
@Shoe It's the sort of "I want to wallow in fear and doom" that turns me off.
So, there's the tension :)
@Shoe Ok :)
 
12:54 AM
I don't think we are doomed
 
Good
 
I actually thought the numbers were worse
 
@Shoe then lets make it happen, right?
 
It seems about 300.000 a year in Europe
Still, it's a danger
 
@Shoe 28 members countries, about 10.000 people per country
seems pretty manageable
 
12:55 AM
Having groups of unintegrated people is dangerous
Even if they were just 50 in some city
We have to find a plan
 
@Shoe Because we might be doomed, if we continue to escalate along that knee-jerk:
Another horrific attack, this time in Nice, France. Many dead and injured. When will we learn? It is only getting worse.
 
@Shoe people dont tend to want to strike against the ones who saved their lives
 
That's all I'm saying
Currently the situation is scary
 
@Shoe what is scary is that a fuckwit like trump is going to win the elections
 
Scary != dangerous. But yes, not having a good plan is dangerous (see Brexit)
 
12:57 AM
The GOP admits two dozen companies have pulled out of next week's convention because of Trump http://politi.co/2adSf4s
 
user406009
@Shoe Surveys like pewforum.org/2013/04/30/… are also somewhat scary.
 
@ChemiCalChems Nope. That's also fear mongering
 
@Lalaland Yeah
 
@sehe he'll build the wall
 
He has no reason to. He's a politician (actually, the worst kind, but I digress). He'd be the first to hurry to make good on a promise
 
12:58 AM
@sehe he doesn't understand what a reason is
 
That may be true, but that simply makes it more likely that it won't happen.
It's a talking point. It's a programme.
 
I'm also scared of how quickly I turned on thinking of closing the borders
That was such a dumb reaction
 
user406009
@jaggedSpire The illegal immigrants in the US are also a lot more homogeneous with the rest of the US population.
 
@sehe have to agree, yes
 
I'm much relieved now.
 
12:59 AM
same here
 

« first day (2099 days earlier)      last day (2841 days later) »