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11:01 AM
get Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee for free!!
 
@набиячлевэлиь only a barely human trunk left
 
@набиячлевэлиь the uncarved block
 
@thecoshman inb4 flag for spam and ads
 
nom nom nom spam & ads
 
Are you zjadamspam.pl?
 
11:06 AM
define: spam and eggs
 
@thecoshman thanks
 
user1804599
11:28 AM
@StackedCrooked implemented that queue coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/786864f1b03651b1
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva cue xkcd tech loop strip
90% of app volume used because facebook devs are too good for vanilla api
What does that remind me of
oh yes, people rewriting vector because the "STL is too slow"
 
hello
 
@Mr.kbok very apt comparison
 
@elyse what that do?
 
They’re all divas. 'All that software can’t handle me, I have to write my own!'
 
11:35 AM
> We wanted a growth factor of 1.5 instead of 2, so we rewrote vector from scratch.
 
@elyse Keep in mind that std::reverse will be expense for large queues.
 
@LucDanton folly.
@LucDanton Yep, exactly my thought.
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked I don't know what else to do.
 
IMO it's a symptom of an overfunded startup. Given infinite money, you can afford having 100 devs working on an iOS app. With tighter budget, you'd probably go with the "read the docs route" or I dunno, calling apple for help.
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz implement a queue
 
11:38 AM
When they're going to scale back, which everyone does, and try to make their software profitable and maintainable, then the sheer volume of marginally useful code will become an issue.
 
@elyse I suppose it might be ok since the reverse only happens occasionally.
 
Of course no one gives a fuck because it's a california startup and the rule is that you have to work on the cool stuff to get visibility, advancement and money, so people make up needs for awesome platform libraries instead of focusing on the large scale efficiency
 
@Griwes did his talk yesterday?
Oh he did.
Cool!
 
linky?
 
@elyse use std::queue, silly
 
11:42 AM
12 hours ago, by Andy Prowl
Lounge power @ CppCon! Go @Griwes! :D
@Mr.kbok ^ Pics.
The talk itself is not yet online.
 
Very moving pics
Mövenpicks
 
@CatPlusPlus lol
 
whoa I'm feeling incredibly lazy today
 
user1804599
@StackedCrookedI have something in mind
 
user1804599
@sehe inefficient
 
11:47 AM
@elyse New idea for a programming language?
 
@elyse so it's not just a queue
 
Ell
Lordy my room is a tip
 
@Ell clean it
 
Ell
I will soon
need to shower and be awake first
 
Unfuck your room.
 
11:52 AM
@elyse why
 
It's not really cleaning, it's just getting back to an acceptable level of mess.
 
user1804599
 
@Ell dude it's 2pm
also wtf why is it so early
 
Preferably enough to not cross the mess-cap before one week, when the next unfucking happens.
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz pop_front
 
11:53 AM
I'm already exhausted
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz I know but I've had like 4 hours sleep for the past 3 nights
 
I do the same with my code lol
 
@elyse std::queue<T, std::deque>
 
Ell
And I was ableto lie in tonight
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz inefficient storage and enqueue
 
11:54 AM
your mom is inefficient
 
user1804599
bad cache locality
 
@Ell why don't you sleep o.o
 
Ell
@Mr.kbok because clubbing every night
 
@elyse it really depends on the use case
 
Ell
It will end soon though
 
11:55 AM
@Ell lol "clubbing"
did you do networking as well
 
"networking"
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz yes
 
user1804599
this use case
 
which club?
 
how do i start talking with people
 
11:56 AM
@elyse I just had a great idea. You should rename Zoidlang to Voidlang.
 
if clubbing doesn't involve hitting someone with a club it doesn't count
@imakin you just did
 
@imakin which ones?
 
oh wtf I had in my fav tags
 
user1804599
 
@elyse Define inefficient. Deque is pretty efficient for most usecases (unless you use MSVC's ISTR). Enqueue too.
 
user1804599
11:58 AM
This is awesome.
 
user1804599
Sep 17 at 20:06, by StackedCrooked
I needed something that has fast push_back and pop_front. Deque is kinda weird. boost::circular_buffer does have fast push_back/pop_front but it's ...circular. It wanted something that grows like a vector.
 
@набиячлевэлиь fuck it
 
@elyse does this silently assume all front() calls are followed by dequeue()?
Also, front() is not thread safe, why mark it const?
 
what's wrong with std::vector?
 
user1804599
@sehe no
 
12:01 PM
 
user1804599
@sehe because I'm not the standard library
 
slappe smoezen
 
@imakin start by listening
 
next step: ignore the yapping
 
user1804599
if you want a thread-safe queue you unlikely want this model anyway
 
12:02 PM
@thecoshman thanks for the link, btw
 
@elyse who said "thread-safe". I want const operations that are actually bitwise const. This is assumed by all standard library facilities since c++11
 
@sehe const has nothing to do with being thread safe o_0
 
sleep well, pirate.
And, no, I don't mean "you should use that convention". I meant: this queue may not safe for use some standard library features
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz I do network also
 
2
A: Const means Thread-safe?

DeduplicatorWhile it does not mean thread-safe per-se, for the standard-library it does: 17.6.5.9 Data race avoidance [res.on.data.races] 1 This section specifies requirements that implementations shall meet to prevent data races (1.10). Every standard library function shall meet each requirement un...

 
Ell
12:05 PM
not this week though :V
@Mr.kbok a few
 
@sehe that seems at odds with Bjarne's advice that const should be applied to anything that is logically const, that const is not concerned about physical constness
 
Bjarne's advice predates c++11, I think
You know, back when memory model and threading were both "terra incognita" - denied from existence as far as the standard was concerned
 
So C++11 brought in containers that say 'bollocks to existing notions of what const means'?
 
the fuck
std::index_sequence is funny
@Ell ...
Repeat after me
 
user1804599
@sehe then why is mutable not deprecated?
 
12:11 PM
"networking" is not a real verb
 
No. Not just new containers.
And also, the new notion more strict so there's no conflict with earlier standards
 
Ell
Networking is a real verb
> interact with others to exchange information and develop professional or social contacts.
You don't network?
 
@elyse Because some things are internally synchronized and - thereby - safe (think std::mutex mutable m_mx;)
 
@Mysticial Wow.... I especially like the "also if you dont mind i need help with these other ones" much lol. @sehe's comment was funny too. Yet I cant help but wonder how it managed to not get deleted?
 
@sehe well the original idea was just that a const fn is logical const, which didn't put any requirement on thread safe access
@BartekBanachewicz yes, it is.
 
user1804599
12:12 PM
I disagree with that.
 
@Ell what does "interact with people" mean here
it's LinkedIn-Sprache
 
user1804599
and therefore will not change my queue API
 
@Borgleader I didn't delete vote because I wanted to give my witty comment a chance to be recognized :) Deleting now
 
IOW recruiter BS
 
@elyse because you need that to have logically but noy physically const stuff... no?
 
Ell
12:13 PM
@BartekBanachewicz networking existed far before linked in
 
Yes I often go out and "interact with others" to "exchange information"
 
@thecoshman it's not a const fn to begin with; it's a const object
 
or you can just talk to people y'know
 
@Ell hint, just walk away
 
Ell
> develop professional contacts
 
12:13 PM
@elyse It's good to be aware of it though
 
@sehe well ok yes
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah intellectual/HR jerking
 
@Ell a.k.a. circlejerking
 
Ell
networking means talking to people from other companies and keeping in contact with them so that they can help you get a job when you need one
 
@BartekBanachewicz it means steamin' fornication
 
12:15 PM
@Ell aka "talking to people and making friends"
 
@sehe Yeah I had a s/information/bodily fluids/ while reading "exchange information"
 
except without the business buzzwords that make me wanna puke
 
@BartekBanachewicz Do you have english buzzwords that make it in polish?
 
cpx
To me networking just means sending a bit of information from one end to end.
 
@Rerito Chmura (cloud) is p much the same as in english
 
12:17 PM
@cpx ))<>((
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz I wouldn't call it making friends
 
cpx
Yes, exactly.
 
Ell
These are professional relationships
 
#killme
what other personal areas of human interactions do you fit into business terms as well
 
You can have networks of different natures, why would it be only for professional interest?
 
12:19 PM
 
@BartekBanachewicz do you seriously fail to see the difference between a person you actually care about as a friend, and someone you just know as a contact who might be able to help you out at some point?
 
@thecoshman You mean an acquaintance?
 
Ell
@Rerito that's just the way people use the word vOv
 
@BartekBanachewicz you mean: please join us in welcoming the risk in order to maximize our resilience to adverse market circumstance and consolidate our relations within our networks?
 
@sehe You're hired!
 
12:21 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes no, that's just someone you know in a causal way, such as the local barman
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes don't be cruel, that's a long word
 
@Rerito Is f nearer h on azerty?
 
@BartekBanachewicz you really are a twat aren't you
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz made me chuckle
 
@sehe fgh on my layout
 
12:22 PM
@thecoshman Now you mean a "casual acquaintance".
 
@thecoshman quote for you:
http://herbsutter.com/2013/05/24/gotw-6a-const-correctness-part-1-3/
> First, let’s be clear: C++98 single-threaded code still works. C++11 has excellent C++98 compatibility, and even though the meaning of const has evolved, C++98 single-threaded code that uses the old “logically const” meaning of const is still valid.
 
Ell
okay I guess instead of networking I should say making professional acquaintances with employees from other companies vOv
 
> With C++11 and onward, which now includes a concurrency memory model and thread safety specification for the standard library, this is now much simpler: const now really does mean “read-only, or safe to read concurrently”—either truly physically/bitwise const, or internally synchronized so that any actual writes are synchronized with any possible concurrent const accesses so the callers can’t tell the difference.
And there's the rest /cc @elyse
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes sure, but that has nothing to do with some you might go to as a foot in the door at the company you want to work at.
 
inb4 he's on herbs
 
12:23 PM
@Ell Or hook? :p
 
@thecoshman Well, if it has nothing do with that, I don't know why you brought it up.
 
@Ell just drop the "professional" epithet
 
I understand @BartekBanachewicz so much. There're words I can't bear hearing
 
Ell
well, professional is what I meant, ie not for leisure/pleasure but for career advancement
 
It's even worse in french
 
12:24 PM
@sehe oh ok fair enough
 
Phew. One of the few times I actually use one of those stashed away trivia bits.
 
Like propal for proposition commerciale
 
Thank you lounge
 
Ghhh that one makes me wanna puke
 
C++ mindset though is that you just make things thread safe... unlike Java where you might offer a non-thread safe version of a class, as you don't have to waste time supporting functionality you don't need.
@Rerito like Haskell
 
12:26 PM
@thecoshman Wow. That's sooooo far from reality
 
user1804599
@sehe ok
 
@thecoshman I don't hear that one often :p
 
@Rerito still too often
@sehe :\
which part exactly?
 
In C++, nothing is made threadsafe, in principle
 
Ell
yeah, "don't pay for what you don't use"
 
12:27 PM
@sehe except things c++ container things where 'const' means thread safe access?
 
@thecoshman In Java, many things are inherently thread safe, and it's impossible to create an object without implicitly being a synchronization handle.
 
@sehe yes, but many containers come in thread safe and thread unsafe versions
 
@thecoshman that's not thread-safe! It affords composition in thread-aware abstractions.
 
Ell
@thecoshman const doesn't mean thread safe o.o
 
@thecoshman Name one thread-safe c++ container
 
12:28 PM
well ok, now I'm just very confused by everything
 
@Ell well. It's subtle. It kinda does. But that's on a different level
 
I thought you said that the newer containers were thread safe, and their use of const was to imply that they were?
 
@thecoshman const member operations promise to be safe for concurrent access. The presence of const member operations does not at all make a container thread-safe.
It enables generic code to use the container in a thread-aware fashion
 
@thecoshman every time someone says "Haskell" you're reminded you can't use it yet, innit :P
 
All that breaks down if you make user-defined type X that allows data races in const member operations. Because then your unordered_map<X> const operations might no longer be safe for concurrent access
 
12:32 PM
@TonyTheLion <3
 
@sehe no it's very obvious that just apply const to a function doesn't magically make it thread safe, but I thought you said that now when a fn is marked const, it's also stating the it can be used thread-safe?
 
@ElimGarak Wow. Transcript digging
 
Yeah, picking up on the early days. :D
 
@thecoshman Your still mixing "making /it/ threadsafe" to mean "it: the member function" and "it: the container". These are very very very very very different things
 
@sehe Could be "all of them" or "none of them", depending on how you define "thread safe".
 
12:34 PM
@vaibhav Yeah!
 
@JerryCoffin ...
 
@spoulson Yes!
5
 
@sehe you better stop or someone realizes immutable data works better in concurrent environments
 
@ElimGarak funny. He'll blame you for 3 lay-offs for answering so late
 
what would all those poor haskell haters do then
 
12:36 PM
@BartekBanachewicz uhoh. too late
@BartekBanachewicz antagonize much
 
@sehe no, just trying to pump ego
 
I like how James McNellis was here early on.
 
@sehe so it's just the function it self that is stating it's thread safe?
not the container as a whole?
 
as safe as an int and operations thereupon
 
I wonder if I should try out Haskell-ZMQ first
 
12:39 PM
@TonyTheLion Hey, guise, Tony was a help vampire!
 
or just use the raw sockets
> For fun, try starting the client and then starting the server, see how it all still works, then think for a second what this means.
I remember thinking for a second when I read it for the first time
> We'll generate random values, just like the real weather stations do.
heh
 
@elyse std::move(*dequeue_it); is a null-op
 
@ElimGarak Oh wow. That's a few years back. I was trying to understand JPG compression back then, needed it for something. That's the reason I asked that question.
 
Yeah, you mentioned. Damn, that's old. :D
 
ZeroMQ is easy to fuck up
 
12:50 PM
@ElimGarak back in those days you could get away with. In fact, I probably asked quite a lot of questions in here back then. But I also took part in other daily conversations, so I wasn't quite the "help vampire" as we would now define it.
 
Woo starting Slack crashed Explorer
 
Yeah, back in those days it was pretty much a mess. Ell was the first regular to appear. :D
 
@CatPlusPlus what is not easy to fuck up? I don't think raw sockets are easier to use
 
first sign of your computer barfing in disgust
 
Ell, Tony, Jerry, sbi, thecoshman and so forth...
 
12:52 PM
@TonyTheLion you were terrible
 
@BartekBanachewicz With raw sockets you hold all of the state, ZMQ is easy to misuse and put in a completely useless state
It's not easier to use, it just has more things built-in
 
@CatPlusPlus mmm. I just feel I'd be reimplementing a lot of what ZMQ already has
 
I mean if you do what ZMQ does then it might be a good choice, but don't choose it because you feel it's easier or whatever
It is a message broker but bundled with the application which has some implications
 
@thecoshman :(
 
And in Haskell laziness might make it even harder to use correctly
Because order of operations kinda matters
 
12:57 PM
Thursdays... why do all my clients go mad on Thursdays...
 
Let's rename thursday to madday
 
@JonClements Your clients are mad all the time. Thursday is just the only day when you're close enough to sane to notice.
 
user406009
@CatPlusPlus Nah, monads are OK at expressing the importance of order.
 
sane? One sec... need to look that word up
 
Ell
I wonder how I can make my sweet potato chips more crunchy
 
1:05 PM
@CatPlusPlus beh, I've managed with OpenGL
 
@Ell std::add_crunch(potato);
 
@TonyTheLion std::for_each(begin(potatoes), end(potatoes), [](auto & potato) {std::add(std::crunch{}, potato);})
 
@TonyTheLion still are
@Ell I found if you lightly oil then and then season them, using a bit of corn flour, then basically shallow fry them, keeping them moving. It takes a while, but they get there.
 
@thecoshman don't push your luck :)
 
Ell
I usually oven bake them, but corn flour is a good idea
 
1:08 PM
@TonyTheLion you'll always be terrible
@Ell doesn't work as well
shall fry, keeping the moving aorund
 
Ell
but but health
 
but but so fucking tasty
and it's not that much oil
 
@Ell skip health, eat good food :)
 
it's not deep frying
 
Ell
Hmm maybe I'll try it then
but I have no corn flour :/
and I think you need a starchy flour not all purpose
I'll just try frying
 
1:11 PM
 
I think any flour is better than none
it's the flour that gives most of the crunch
oh, and once you chop them, use some kitchen towel to dry them a bit
you want to remove any surface water
@JerryCoffin nice
 
Ell
oh balls the event was at 13:00 not 16:00
ah sheeit. I missed free pizza :(
 
free pizza at 16 would be a bit weird, don't you think?
 
because people just ate at 12/13/14
 
1:16 PM
@Mr.kbok it's pizza and students, it's always the right time
 
someone mentioned pizza!??? look around eagerly
 
@Mr.kbok So?
It's free pizza
 
I hate pizza
 
Ell
meh oh well engineers are cooler than compsci ;)
(it was a compsci social)
 
I'm eating lunch and it's almost 15:30. The hour doesn't matter.
 
1:21 PM
@Mr.kbok I don't like it much either, buy it less than once per year. Home made is usually ok.
 
@Morwenn It does, because if you wake up at 14 sometimes you miss the free pizza :D
@JohanLarsson It was a lie actually, I eat pizza almost every day :s
 
I generally don't eat pizza anyway.
 
it does make you fat
 
> Dear Etienne de,
They never learn.
 
Ell
what the hell is this man youtube.com/watch?v=ZtAHGZffoLI
 
1:28 PM
do you get RVO with a pure virtual call?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Dear etienne.de,
 
Ell
it's quite funny actually
 
[ ] Yes [ ] Maybe [ ] Not a chance [ ] Yes / Maybe / Not a chance
 
Ell
dear de,
 
@Mr.kbok Probably yes
 
1:34 PM
how does that work? prelink abi specific?
 
It works, don't question it
Also, construct your local compiler's documentation
 
I'll write some tests
Anyone knows which compilers have devirtualization?
 
Ell
probably gcc
 
Holy fucking shit, someone beat me to it. A bit coarse models, but UE4 seems to make up for it:
 
Ell
1:36 PM
yes gcc
 
@ElimGarak You want to tour the big D?
 
I love big Ds!
 
@C.Trauma the fuck?
 
Ell
1:37 PM
@C.Trauma lol I wondered who it was that popped into chat
 
GCC de-virtualization.. was interested when it came up
 
Ell
or anonymous wombat or w/e
 
sorry
very little sleep
thought it was a decent overview
 
A bit of a miss on the bridge scale, but otherwise pretty dope.
 
never mind me
 
1:40 PM
@набиячлевэлиь that's weak ass devirtualization. I want the whole deal. virtual function whole-program registration. branch degradation. graph analytic on top of that
I know experimental versions of clang did that
 
@ElimGarak the shadows as all wrong
 
@thecoshman UE4's issue, they are prebaked, encoded in low band spherical harmonics during light computations and then baked into an even lower resolution lightmap which will bleed shadows all over the place, depending on how it was unwrapped.
 
Ell
@C.Trauma I think it is
 
But it is still mesmerizing, probably because I am a huge Star Trek fan
 
Ell
@Mr.kbok gcc does whole program optimisation, doesn't it?
 
1:43 PM
I should probably lurk more and post less before coffee : )
 
@ElimGarak xkcd
 
(also, looks better than TNG did in the 80s. :D)
 
@Ell yes, but you need to degrade virtual calls into if statements before
 
user406009
@ElimGarak I wish they had just turned off shadows for that thing.
 
user406009
The sucky ones are so distracting.
 
1:50 PM
@ElimGarak I think the camera movement is more fucked up than the lights
 
Probably should've just animated the whole thing, with a smooth sailing cinematic camera.
What I appreciate about it is the integration between the interior and the exterior. Too many games forget just how much immersion is broken with everything being a separate level ( I am looking at you, Mass Effect ).
 
@ElimGarak now you made me wanna do something in 3D again
some space game
 
user406009
whispers Kyrostat
 
Which is not dead. :D
 
user406009
You know what might be a fun idea? A space game where you control a large ship.
 
user406009
1:56 PM
And you can run around in first person between the various departments.
 
@Lalaland try Guns of Icarus
if only 3D wasn't so hard and annoying
I am too bad a developer to do 3D
it's like harder in every possible regard than 2D
resource management, performance, maths, design
 
user406009
Even the assets are fucking hard to do well.
 
user406009
(Models, textures, maps, etc)
 
well okay modelling is easier than drawing (at least for me)
but loading models is another story
 
user406009
No, modeling is much harder.
 
1:58 PM
it really depends
but modelling doesn't require nearly as much artistic skills if you're just doing something based on 2d concepts
it's more of an engineering thing
 
We've been working on a police game for the past 2 years, and I actually went in and modeled the car Danny uses in Hawaii Five 0. Will probably have to have an artist destroy the insignias and change it a bit.
 
woop, 2 years is a lo
 

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