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12:00 AM
a specific example of what, exactly?
 
@Puppy What C++ tools are terribly slow exactly?
 
@Jefffrey Pretty much fucking all of them. Compilers, intellisense and other support tools, linkers, all of them.
 
@Jefffrey The compilers?
Right, linkers too.
 
Compilers are slow? I don't find them that slow.
At least for the work they have to do.
 
Well you are lucky to have a good one then.
 
12:01 AM
Or maybe I don't compile much stuff nowadays so I don't remember.
 
@Puppy of a templated quick sorting algorithm for example
 
@Jefffrey Well, that's pretty much the problem- they have to do a shitton of work that isn't really necessary, like O(n^2) includes.
@vsoftco In Wide?
 
I see
 
yes, how fast the beast is?
 
well, for one, my implementation is only a prototype, so the performance measurement doesn't really matter.
 
12:03 AM
@Puppy sorry for these questions that may look stupid, I haven't truly taken a look at your language
 
How do you guys feel about this syntax:
source "string.msk"

need string

masktype Named_Int:
{name_ptr string&}
{value 8}

//This defines a new data structure
 
@Cinch Awful.
 
user1804599
Alright, GC is in place.
 
user1804599
Now I can start working on the interpreter!
 
@Puppy What makes it bad?
 
12:04 AM
and secondly, quickosrt doesn't really require any of the things that I've defined should be faster about Wide, in theory.
 
which features do you consider unneeded? I think I have used most features (well excluding some sections of the standard library)
 
@Cinch It's a bit... Cryptic.
 
@Puppy I'd like to see on your starting page WHY we should care about the Wide language.
 
@Veritas void and pointers
 
@Jefffrey At my first job I had to work on the 1.7 release of a program that took 200 minutes to compile. A few months later it had become 40 minutes.
 
12:05 AM
@Cinch Well, that need string a) has no terminator so I hope to hell that you never have any kind of remotely interesting type syntax, ever.
and b), looks terribly like an #include and holy shit, those things are awful.
 
@StackedCrooked Sounds like a great improvement.
 
@Puppy I agree it may be great, but from your welcome page seems it us just some other language that tries to do stuff codepuppy.co.uk
 
and c), the conventional term is really import or using or something like that, "need" looks like a whiny child
 
@Jefffrey There was the switch from PowerPC to Intel and all that .
 
and I hope that your "source string.msk" was just exposition
 
12:06 AM
Switch from CodeWarrior to GCC (best move ever).
 
user1804599
use :3
 
and how is a masktype different to any other kind of type?
 
@Puppy hope you're not offended by my comment, I am just saying that it will be great to highlight the differences
 
and why doesn't it have a proper terminator?
and what th fuck are you doing using C++'s reference syntax? that shit is hideous
and you specify a type in one and a value in another?
 
user1804599
My syntax is the best syntax.
 
12:08 AM
@vsoftco Sure, but the key differences do not involve performance, since for most cases C++ is already fast enough.
 
@Puppy does your language have a GC?
 
being able to improve performance in Wide is a side benefit of cleaning out the crap, not a primary goal.
 
@Puppy yes, I know, but you should mention what your target is. Is it folks that are fucking sick of C++ and will like to move to a Python++? Or they want the C++ syntax in some virtual-machine environment?
 
@Veritas Not currently and not tremendously likely it ever will.
@vsoftco Nobody wants C++ syntax anywhere.
 
@Puppy this I TRULY agree :)
@Puppy however, one thing that threw me off, your live code snippets don't look OK on either Chrome or Safari
 
12:11 AM
currently I'm targetting people using C++ but that want tools that actually work and a language that is not crippled by C compatibility
 
user1804599
Instead, it's crippled by C++ compatibility. :P
 
@vsoftco From memory, I was using Chrome when I developed them, but it might be Firefox. What are you seeing?
 
@Puppy and I just quitted it, since I didn't want to do any "local installing"
 
what local installing? there's no local installing.
the Wide website doesn't even offer a download of the Wide compiler.
 
how can I send a link?
to an image?
 
12:12 AM
just post the link
 
wait a sec.. will put it in on my dropbox
 
looks fine to me (except the height is a bit off)
 
I just cannot scroll
the code, below
ohhh
it works
can scorll
I can scroll it now
 
Not sure how you can avoid pointers for low-level stuff but I would be interested to see a different approach
 
the browsers just have kind of annoying behaviour when it comes to sizing text areas and contenteditable divs.
I ran into some sizing issues with Chrome as well in our web application at work.
 
12:15 AM
@Puppy but I'm pretty sure I had some issues before. Why don't you make them like a fixed minimal width wrt actual screen size?
 
Why doesn't Main have a return type? Is that inferred?
 
I can really say it threw me off, since I couldn't read the damn code
 
@Jefffrey Yes.
 
To be void?
 
@vsoftco They are a fixed width, I'm pretty sure. It's height that's the issue.
@Jefffrey Yes.
 
Xeo
12:17 AM
@Mysticial Sorry, was catching up on anime with my friend
 
@Puppy sorry, I meant height, still after 11 years in N. America I mess these up :)
 
Xeo
Oh man, I wanna watch Aldnoah, but I gotta sleep - D&D tomorrow
 
@Puppy > When we access a member of a namspace, this refers to
 
@vsoftco Well, that is what it should do- set the area to the right height, but it's not always correct.
 
source "string.msk"

int main():
str = "Hello World"
print(String, str)
return 0
???
 
12:18 AM
no, so so bad
 
how about I just post a Coliru.... sigh formatting
 
@Jefffrey Voops.
@Cinch I usually use Gist for regular text.
 
@Cinch What's String in print(String, str) and why
 
@Jefffrey print(masktype, data)
 
@Cinch That sucks tremendously.
 
12:19 AM
@Cinch Can't the compiler infer that?
 
even Java doesn't require you to pass in the type and you know you're doing it wrong when Java is beating you.
 
@Cinch My first bit of advice: imitate Pascal (and recent additions to C++) and use something like name : type rather than type name, giving something like main : int or main -> int, rather than int main.
 
@Jefffrey No, all variables are untyped uttil you type it
2
 
Wat
 
@Cinch That is a tremendously epic fail.
 
12:20 AM
The point is so that you have control over data-structures
 
the world needs more strict static typing, not the other way around.
 
i.e. if I wanted to pack 8 bools into a byte, i can.
 
@Cinch That would be controlling the layout of the type, not randomly failing to handle what the type actually is.
 
This makes it much easier to read, and generally easier to keep the grammar unambiguous as well.
 
also C++ has bitfields.
 
12:21 AM
I don't understand
 
Of course, you could always create functions that accept only certain masktypes.
 
@Puppy Yay! Go puppy!
 
not to mention bitwise ops.
 
@Puppy It's going to take 8 bytes for < 64 bits in most major compilers :3
 
in fact pretty much any GP language can already pack 8 bools into a byte.
even C# can do it.
 
12:21 AM
Yeah but it becomes an inherent part of the language
 
bit operations and bitfields are inherent parts of the language.
 
It makes controlling layout of type easy
 
Xeo
You sound confused.
 
you're writing an entire language based on an almost completely irrelevant detail of one tiny aspect of it that existing languages already support just fine.
 
@Puppy, so my last question is this: why developing a new language at all? What should it bring to our world, and why should we care? When I'm writing some simulation, I try to get the best out of each processor. If I wouldn't care about speed, I'd use Python, which I really really like as an idea (list comprehensions, generators etc). So why should I try to use Wide in e.g. my research?
@Puppy Sorry for asking some "non-orthodox" questions, but I'd really like to see what's going on in the future language development world. I am definitely not a player in this domain, but just a user.
 
12:23 AM
@vsoftco I like Python as an idea, but in many ways, it just plain sucks.
dynamic typing, crappy support for functional programming, stuff like that.
also if you have a giant C++ app right now it's kinda hard to just suddenly go Python.
 
Xeo
@Puppy The functional support is actually pretty nice
 
@Puppy are you trying to marry Haskell and C++ ?
 
user1804599
Fuck.
 
@Xeo No multi-line lambdas, no assignment in lambdas.
 
user1804599
If I have a getter for x then I name the field x_. However, now I want a getter for true_ but true__ is reserved.
 
Xeo
12:24 AM
> assignment
> functional
pick one :P
 
nah
I choose both.
 
working with functions does not require that those functions be pure or lazy.
 
functional languages have assignment.
Python lambdas don't have assignment at all
Not even immutable ones (i.e. intermediate variable).
 
and if I'm passing a function to another function then it should fuckin' be a proper function that can do everything a normal function can do.
including assignment, I/O or whatever I want.
@vsoftco No.
 
Xeo
12:26 AM
@Rapptz Oh, so declarations. That I didn't know.
 
It's just syntactic sugar for single-return functions.
 
@Jefffrey Seems to me like just alignment, which is always an issue if you're using non-rounded numbers.
 
@Puppy glad you say NO, as I think it's impossible now (at least, how the f..k can pointers be compatible with a pure functional language is something I still have to see)
 
Xeo
@vsoftco A pointer is just an integer, in the end.
 
@Xeo question is what you can do with this integer
 
Xeo
12:28 AM
(FWIW, Haskell has pointers)
 
@vsoftco even a 7GB movie!
 
@vsoftco I don't really like Haskell.
 
@Puppy Oh, you mean that it's because Coliru is a 64bits architecture so each object must be aligned with 8 bytes?
 
@Jefffrey Yes. Notice how at each 64-boolean boundary, the space is used perfectly?
if you use a bitfield structure directly you can probably get this lower, std::bitset probably uses a large integer type.
 
@Puppy I now have to leave this room :))) I love Haskell and how it makes everything very math-like, but probably is just because my education :)
 
Xeo
12:29 AM
@Puppy Obtw, do you happen to have an opinion on Rust?
 
@Puppy But at that point wouldn't std::array<std::bitset<8>, 8> take only 8 bytes?
 
@Xeo Seems to me that some of their ideas are good and some of them are batshit insane.
 
Xeo
e.g.?
 
I like some of their ownership style annotations.
I seriously dislike their immutability orgasm.
as if I need a language feature to define an immutable interface
 
user1804599
12:32 AM
Interpreter works great. :)
 
@Jefffrey No, because each std::bitset has to be aligned individually.
 
Xeo
@Puppy I see.
I like the immutable-by-default idea.
 
immutability is a tool and nothing more, and I don't see any particular need for language support for this particular tool.
 
@Puppy What feature?
 
since it's literally as simple as just not writing mutating functions.
@LucDanton There is (or was, I'm not a Rust connoseiur) let vs let mut. Or perhaps I'm confusing it with some other language, I haven't really looked at Rust in great detail.
 
12:34 AM
suuuuuuuure buddy
 
ok, something geeky now, can you figure out what is the true entropy of a std::random_device? I need this for some crypto stuff I'm writing, and all of my compilers choke in it, i.e. give 0 as the entropy, see stackoverflow.com/q/28390843/3093378 for details
 
Xeo
@Puppy It's just inverted T vs T const in C++
 
I'd very much like to know at least whether the entropy > 0 or is 0
 
@Xeo And if you recall, I also have a strong dislike of const.
 
Xeo
I don't remember, I'll admit.
 
user1804599
12:36 AM
const in D is nice.
 
user1804599
It's transitive.
 
I have a strong dislike of const, although personally a good part of it's sins are due to a poor implementation rather than necessarily because the concept is especially bad.
but I also think that it's fundamentally flawed as a concept.
 
user1804599
So const(int)* and const(int*) are the same.
 
@Puppy How so, again?
 
3 mins ago, by Puppy
since it's literally as simple as just not writing mutating functions.
 
12:37 AM
@Puppy I just cannot understand what's the reason to dislike Haskell if you don't like const
 
well haskell's immutability is probably because of it's academic nature
 
I don't see how const achieves anything, really.
 
haskell's variables are really like the ones in mathematics
 
I already knew that my comparison operator is non-mutating, and I already know my interface is non-mutating since I did not write any mutable operations on it.
 
@Veritas It’s part of its ML heritage.
 
12:37 AM
adding const is just me telling the compiler shit I already know and it doesn't need to.
 
it may be but this is how it made sense to me
 
@Puppy make you be more careful with the fucked up functions that are not really function in a mathematical sense (they modify their domain/range)
 
user1804599
Mill variables are immutable unless prefixed with $ sigil at definition site and all use sites.
 
user1804599
:D :D :D :D :D
 
@Veritas It's due to the functional paradigm
 
12:39 AM
and frankly, immutability is just... not that useful a tool for some parts of code.
I find it useful for defining some interfaces to be immutable, but when you start talking about regular local variables, I don't see any benefit at all.
 
@Puppy so they teach the guy who's writing the program that "look, g(int& x)" is not really a function...
 
@Puppy How would that work for say integers?
 
user1804599
Immutability is immensely useful in languages without value semantics.
 
@Puppy It is a MONSTER
 
@Jefffrey If you don't want to mutate the integer, don't call mutating operations on the integer.
 
user1804599
12:40 AM
In languages with value semantics, the impact of mutation is typically small because you copy and move values around.
 
it's not like integers have any particularly interesting properties that are destroyed if you mutate it.
 
Xeo
@Puppy Language-provided protection against Murphy.
 
@Xeo Sure, except Murphy mutating a local is perfectly safe.
 
Hmm, what
@Puppy If your program is not supposed to mutate an integer, with const you get a compile time error. Without you don't.
 
Xeo
Not if you didn't mean to mutate that local
 
12:42 AM
well, it's also a mistake for Murphy to call a function he didn't mean to.
if the programmer is a moron and calls functions he doesn't want to, then there's not that much that anybody can do about it.
 
@Puppy I had to star that. const just props up 'I don't know how my program works, so I stuck in this band-aid to remind me that I cannot actually develop programs'.
 
user1804599
Good thing Murphy doesn't exist.
 
if you have a local variable, it should have a pretty narrow scope anyway and if you want to see all the ops on it, just click on it and the environment will highlight all the uses.
 
@Puppy You can declare it const and detect it at compile time.
 
@Jefffrey You could do, except that's a giant waste of time because that requires orgasming const over every piece of code written in the entire language.
which is what we see in C++.
 
12:43 AM
It's a form of type safety v0v
 
sure, except that the operation in question is almost never actually unsafe, and it has a tremendously high cost in terms of additional code and semantics.
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey Why do you say that?
 
Bah I'm having a hard time coming up with syntax
 
so make constness automatically deduced! :D
 
@райтфолд Because the operations that you can perform on a const int are a subset of the operations that you can perform on an int.
 
12:45 AM
Wow, so you can detect errors at compile-time, (unless you cannot 'cos API pointers etc). That's only useful if you cannot quickly detect the same errors at runtime.
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey Depends.
 
Yes.
 
@MartinJames Detecting errors at compile-time is a useful thing to do.
but it's a cost-benefit tradeoff and in this case, the benefit is minimal and the cost is high.
 
user1804599
const_cast
 
@Puppy Fuck me. I'm agreeing with teh little doggy again:)
 
12:46 AM
I find const to be really useful.
 
@Jefffrey Well......
 
@райтфолд Just like unsafePerformIO, const_cast is only there to deal with exceptional cases. It's not something you should consider in a talk like this one.
 
It's like dereferencing a NULL pointer - who cares? The app always blows up, so the bug gets fixed immediate.
 
Eh
 
well no
 
Xeo
12:49 AM
@MartinJames Are you drunk again?
 
there's no guarantee at all that you can accurately detect bad mutations at runtime.
 
@Xeo Yes, but?
 
Xeo
Then I shall not hold you accountable. :P
 
@Puppy but if you do that, you're a scrub, and deserve it? :p
 
well imo access specifiers are useless :p
 
12:50 AM
access specs are mostly fine as they are but I would add a private_cast.
 
It's one of those things where, in comparison to all my other horrible bugs, mutating a const is a non-issue, (for me).
 
user1804599
I just wrote auto std::vector<char>& data.
 
lol
 
Xeo
And that extra semantic information is good, imo. More information allows you to better reason about something. Taking your "the environment highlights all uses" example: it doesn't. It doesn't highlight how the variable is used in functions that you passed it to. It shows you where you passed it, but not what happens to it afterwards.
You can manually hunt down those functions and everything, but if you simply know the "variable" can't change (it's a constant), you have much less to worry about.
Also, I'd really like to continue this discussion, but alas I gotta get up early for D&D. Leave me a ping.
 
@Xeo ping
 
12:54 AM
At least to me, const is primarily about stating intent--when I have (for example) static const int foo = 1234;, the primary intent is that somebody reading the code should realize this is intended to be a constant. The fact that the compiler happens to enforce that is nice, but it would be useful even without compiler-driven enforcement.
 
@Xeo This beer went on. Supposedly, it's name is 'Golden Sheep', but there was no pump-badge for it. After some discussion, everyone thought that 'Golden Sheep' was too easily mutated into 'Rams' piss' and, as it was not marked as const, we hand-wrote a badge as 'Partial Eclipse'.
 
user1804599
cuntsuck
 
user1804599
I don't know how to implement PushString.
 
user1804599
I have a constant pool per object file.
 
@Xeo Sure; except that only occurs if you pass by ref, which for me is basically never. So my variables don't change unless I change them and it has nothing to do with const.
 
user1804599
12:55 AM
But different object files can use the same constant pool indices.
 
user1804599
Eureka! I need to pass a constant pool to the interpreter!
 
That’s an argument in favour of mutability opt-in.
 
what, that I don't need language-level immutability at all?
 
55 secs ago, by Luc Danton
That’s an argument in favour of mutability opt-in.
 
well, it's not really because I like to mutate my locals directly
 
user1804599
12:58 AM
Why is struct String { char* data; std::size_t length; }; not trivially copyable?
 
and I'd pretty much never have a use case for opting out.
so I'm not sure how this argument is in favour of mutability opt-in.
 

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