« first day (1867 days earlier)      last day (3072 days later) » 

5:00 PM
Open I guess
 
@CatPlusPlus Notice how he's still flooring it with his hands up (the back wheels running) :D I like how the grey SUV keeps mercilessly hitting the car even after being surrounded. :D
 
@BartekBanachewicz Pretty much any new feature adds overall complexity
That doesn't mean we shouldn't change the language
It's always a tradeoff between added complexity and benefits
 
Also not sure why the police didn't get in front of them on that empty road at the start
 
hey @TonyTheLion I have a business idea wanna hear it
 
@Jefery well in this case you have to bring benefits over type classes
 
5:03 PM
@Mr.kbok tell me
 
I presume you want local overloads, right?
 
Sure, but I'd like to focus on practical cons first. Ignoring the general "complexity" deal that is common to every new functionality.
 
as an ad-hoc way of providing specialized behaviour for some type that stays local
 
@TonyTheLion a tech that lets you link binaries from different visual studio versions together
 
Lost cause
 
5:05 PM
@BartekBanachewicz That too, but not necessary
 
@Jefery Complexity is a beast with many faces. It's harder to read the code, you now have two ways to do different things etc.
 
@TonyTheLion It knows where the other sock is
 
@TonyTheLion so like, you have that dumb provider that won't upgrade from vs2010 but that's okay because with Tony&KbokKit(tm) you can build with 2015 and still use that old-ass lib
 
CRT mismatches will kill you
 
@Jefery well what do you want to use it for?
 
5:05 PM
You can build an out-of-process host for that thing and then IPC
 
@CatPlusPlus well, the point is it's hard to do
 
I doubt there's anything sensible to do in-process
 
otherwise it's not a business idea
 
because that particular case is covered either by Haskell-Someday non-exported instances or slightly inconvenient Haskell-now newtypes
 
In those situations it's probably best to either ditch that stupid thing or match your compiler to theirs :v
 
5:07 PM
In general I think that C++ approach to static polymorphism, overloading and template restrictions is better than Haskell's one.
 
@CatPlusPlus 1) is dumb and 2) is the particular problem we're trying to solve here
 
@Jefery by template restrictions you mean "no restrictions at all", "duck-typed templates that generate cryptic compiler errors" and "overloading slapped on top that complicates every single template thing"?
 
What's dumb
 
For example, making (+) work for multiple types is accomplished in Haskell via the Num typeclass. Which is all fine and dandy until a type for which such operator would make sense doesn't exactly adhere to the same set of rules.
 
@CatPlusPlus u r dum
 
5:08 PM
As an example of said type is a matrix.
 
@Jefery which helps avoid confusion?
 
whoa, I even did manage to typo that
 
@Jefery I prefer specialized matrix operators, especially given that haskell allows you to create your own
 
Also, out-of-process host, it's been done already
 
In C++ this problem doesn't exist, because operators can be overloaded for any type with their respective meaning. And in C++ you can still define a concept Num and define the same set of rules, but you can also define a similar Matrix concept, with another set of rules. Even though some operations in those contexts are overlapping.
 
5:10 PM
@CatPlusPlus when we are billionaires you'll be all "pls donate"
 
@Jefery I don't think allowance of overlapping is a desirable thing in the first place
 
@TonyTheLion what do you think of my business idea
 
It's called COM :v
 
which is funintly 1 letter away from CUM
 
in C++ everything is cooler because you can use powerful features like inheritance, templates, overloading in a crappy way and obtain a creamy pile of shit
 
5:11 PM
I need to learn how to regex.
I'm gonna go learn how to regex.
 
just tytpe random symbols
 
@BartekBanachewicz I understand your point. The current way is simpler, sure. But is there really a problem with having something like foldr (+) matrices and foldr (+) nums?
 
mailny stars and parentheses
(***********8
 
@GregorMcGregor (*[]())
 
I don't think the added complexity is as much of a problem as the benefits outweight.
 
5:12 PM
@CatPlusPlus yeah right
 
@Jefery I don't care about having + for matrices, I don't think it's a good idea, I don't see the need for it
@Jefery there are no benefits.
 
@BartekBanachewicz How so?
 
@CatPlusPlus COM is gr8 and everyone faps to it
 
simply.
I don't want that.
 
Sum of matrices is a widely recognized operation.
 
5:13 PM
No, I'm serious, that's p much the same problem/solution
 
I'm sold on the typeclass model, that's what I want.
@Jefery I don't care.
 
And it's define mathematically also via +
 
@Jefery it's programming, not maths paper
 
@CatPlusPlus COM is not a solution at all it involves rewriting all your code
 
you seem to be assuming that Haskell is a purist mathematic language
it's not. It's pragmatic as fuck.
 
5:14 PM
No it doesn't, what you want can be solved by writing a COM wrapper over the lib and using out-of-process server to host it
 
All I'm saying is that using specific symbols yield a specific meaning which is widely recognized.
 
is writing matrixA .+. matrixB less beautiful? maybe, but no one cares.
 
It doesn't have to be COM COM but it'll be p much the same mechanism at play
 
@Mr.kbok sounds interesting. needs more looking into how that would be achieved
 
And it may be pragmatic to use said standard symbols as opposed to inventing your own because the language forces you to.
 
5:14 PM
It's the same thing as with trying to load 32-bit DLLs into 64-bit process
 
@Jefery outweighed by the fact of readability of specialized operators
 
@BartekBanachewicz I personally care.
 
@Jefery you're in minority and I disagree with you.
 
It's not just readability.
 
You need to move it out of the process, and you need some kind of IPC to use it
 
5:15 PM
you don't
 
you're too attached to "mathematical symbol for matrix addition is + so we need to force each part of the language to allow me to write it as that"
 
You don't what
Linking multiple CRTs into the process will kill you
 
@Jefery IOW "I'll cry if I don't get the syntax I want"
 
There's no way around that
 
this problem is solved using C API and lifetime methods because the C++ semantics sucks
 
5:15 PM
Whatt
 
COM has nothing to do with that
 
Say some algorithm func is polymorphic and accepts any type for which + is defined and performs something based on that. It doesn't really care about Num properties, just that + is defined.
 
you can link as many CRTs into a process as you want. what are you talking about
 
You want to use it with matrices. What do you do?
 
Uh huh
 
5:17 PM
you don't need IPC
ever
 
Uh huhh
Enjoy your business
 
@Jefery you're turning the thing upside down
There's a concept of Addition in terms of which the function is defined
 
lol seriously cat
 
now your matrix can realize that concept
 
you just don't know what you're talking about
 
5:18 PM
@Mr.kbok not the first time
 
@BartekBanachewicz Which function? (+) or (.+.)?
 
@BartekBanachewicz yeah, but he's usually not that obviously, factually wrong.
@Jefery ( . ) ( . ) best function
 
Have fun!
 
@Jefery func
class Addition a where
    add :: a -> a -> a

func :: Addition a =>  ... a ...

instance Matrix Addition where
 ....
 
Right so now you have to create your typeclass for that function, with something called like add which can then be used to instanciate all types that satisfy the property of having (+).
And then use it inside the func.
 
5:21 PM
how does that work if you're trying to implement Addition for Matrix after the fact?
 
@Jefery that's why that's the opposite of "ad-hoc" polymorphism
@Puppy no problems. instance Matrix Addition can be added later for any type
 
@Nooble check out lumiukko
 
@BartekBanachewicz Does that sound pragmatic for you?
 
@Jefery it works better in practice.
 
How?
 
5:22 PM
it makes you think more about the different sets of types in your code and how to operate on them
 
I'm giving you a fairly practical example here.
Now say you have func2, which instead needs neg to work.
Do you create a new typeclass and implement it for all types that satisfy Num?
Can you see where I'm going with this?
 
I think the idea of "has a function with the same name and a matching signature" is simply meh
 
it's fine for some building blocks.
 
@Jefery yes, you think that not being explicit about genericity is better because it makes you write less code
 
addition, for example.
 
5:23 PM
and my point is that writing more code isn't necessarily worse at all in this case
especially given that the code will be physically shorter in haskell than in C++ anyway, even with explicit classes
 
I wouldn't be too sure in this case to be honest
 
Haskell's approach leans towards explicitness and correctness
and I prefer this tradeoff here
 
It's not about length of code. It's about "how many things do I have to specify to make something as simple as 'I need to use this thing in my function' work".
 
"simple" is always a result of some tradeoffs
 
@BartekBanachewicz You can still enforce correctness here.
 
5:26 PM
cherry-picking a singular thing that's "simple" in some context without looking at the bigger picture consequences is strawman
 
And you are still explicit about it
 
@Jefery yes, by making the fact that the matrix satisfies the concept explicit, which in current C++ without concepts is a royal pita
 
@BartekBanachewicz This is just a practical example of a case where things as they are right now could create a problem.
It's just an example.
 
it's an isolated example that tells you very little to nothing about the actual consequences
 
Well, it tells me that the typeclass and the functions defined in said typeclass are extremely coupled.
 
5:27 PM
it's not nearly enough to convince me even if in this particular isolated case of a very specific small program your example could provide shorter code
@Jefery what is "function defined in a typeclass"?
 
it's actually a pretty generic point
 
And I think that concepts and functions should be decoupled.
 
you're making a case in favour of explicitness, but explicitness is not always the best case.
 
As in: multiple functions can be part of multiple concepts.
 
regardless of whether explicitness is a better default or the most common case
it's not always the best case.
 
5:28 PM
@BartekBanachewicz The functions that are to be defined when instanciating a type for a typeclass.
 
@Jefery you can achieve that by making concepts more granual and expressing other concepts as composition of them
if you think typeclasses with too many functions are a problem, then clearly you're looking at typeclass misuse
 
960 and 970 are not bad cards right? especially for around £200 mark, right?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Which 1) is not the current situation (see Num) 2) mostly yields typeclasses with 1 function in the form of HasX.
@BartekBanachewicz Is Num typeclass misuse?
 
sometimes CIFS goes batshit and gives me access denied for mkdir but not for subsequent file copies so the copy source_file directory creates a file named directory that then blows everything up
 
HasX is absolutely meaningless
 
5:29 PM
@thecoshman I thought that the 960 was weak but the 970 looks like a fair bargain. Be warned, though- it's yet to be determined if nVidia can produce DX12 performance on those cards worth shit
 
@BartekBanachewicz I agree
 
@Jefery I don't find it problematic, again.
 
Whether you find it problematic or not is not very important.
 
hence I don't think it's a misuse
it's apparently causing you some problems
 
@Jefery A lot of the more common Haskellers actually say that it is.
 
5:30 PM
@Mr.kbok Then abort on the first access denied?
 
@Puppy I've heard
 
then again, it's trivial to create your own type classes suited for your needs
 
@CatPlusPlus batch files are a pain to do this in, so we just probe for access rights at script startup.
 
and leverage flexible instances
 
Trivial, sure.
 
5:32 PM
That's race condition
 
as long as it does exactly the same as a subset of another class, yes
 
It's also trivial to define your own functor classes and instanciate them in C++, but lambdas are a great step forward.
 
@CatPlusPlus I'm absolutely positive no one is touching this directory at the moment
 
Triviality of a solution doesn't make it the best solution.
 
class Addy a where
    add :: a -> a -> a

instance Num a => Addy a where
    add = (+)

instance Addy Matrix where
    add = (.+.)
@Jefery yes, I consider this trivial.
 
5:33 PM
Either way, you should handle errors regardless
You can not use batch scripts
 
all in all, I don't think ad-hoc polymorphism is worth it
 
dude you are so annoying
 
@Puppy ergh, it'll be an upgrade either way :P
 
lol
 
be reasonable when creating type classes and you're good to go
 
5:34 PM
Is it me, or are the *60s usually a bit weak?
 
Yes why do I bother suggesting actual solutions
 
I think ad-hoc polymorphism is very worth it.
So we can agree to disagree.
 
960 sure is a good bit cheaper though :P
 
But while I've presented you with some practical cases where ad-hoc polymorphism is a better solution, you haven't provided cases where it's a bad solution.
And I was more interested in that.
 
5:35 PM
@CatPlusPlus yes thanks for your expertise "checking error code" never crossed my mind
@CatPlusPlus what is your paypal tip url pls
 
@Jefery because those cases are actually way more complex
or real-world-ish if you want
 
@Mr.kbok Clearly didn't since you're not doing it apparently
 
I honestly don't want you to convince you in any way. I just picked you because I know you are invested in finding the most annoying case, and I'm very interested in hearing that.
 
Oh god it requires one more line of code for every operation is poor excuse
 
@Jefery having to deal with overloads in templates was enough to convince me that the whole idea is absolutely fucked up
 
5:37 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Hmm, what issues did you find?
Ambiguous overloads?
 
I don't want to remember, it's C++
 
Or situations where there's not an exact match and implicit conversions enter into place and so on?
 
I'd rather forget I ever used that language, I wish it dies soon
 
he he
 
which, given the actions of the commitee, isn't that unprobable
 
5:38 PM
@CatPlusPlus one more line of code for every.. line of code, and for what? it's "script blows" up vs "script blows up" anyway so you don't get any added value
 
You don't like the actions the committee is taking recently (last 5 years)?
 
@Jefery yay let's slap more features on this pile of wank to satisfy our ego and pursuit of other languages that we are 20 years behind but god forbids we remove this terrible piece of functionality that's used by 5 obscure codebases
no, I don't like them.
 
As in, the actions were mostly ok, but the priorities are way off.
 
Do you honestly think they do it for their ego?
 
5:39 PM
I think they are misguided and misjudging
 
I doubt its for their ego
 
@TonyTheLion Me too
 
I don't really care for their reasoning.
 
Honestly, if you can do it better, perhaps you should contribute
 
@BartekBanachewicz So you judge them without listening to their reasoning?
 
5:40 PM
@Jefery If their reasoning is correct, then the language isn't for me at all. If it's wrong, then it's doomed anyway.
soo....
 
I see
Makes sense
Thank you for your time ;)
 
anytime
@TonyTheLion I'd rather contribute to things I believe have actual chance of succeeding
like Rust or Haskell
 
C++ has only been around for 20 years
definitely hasn't succeeded
 
C++ was a success in 2003
 
its only used by lots of companies
 
5:43 PM
but right now it's way behind
@TonyTheLion so is PHP
 
well it has lambdas :)
 
@TonyTheLion Lisp had them in 1958
 
so what does a successful language consist of then?
I'm not talking about whether the language is "good" or "bad", but merely whether it has made it, ie people are using it.
 
@TonyTheLion state-of-the-art features implemented in a usable way
@TonyTheLion people will use any shit you throw at them (cue php) so I don't consider that valid at all
 
@TonyTheLion It's child friendly.
 
5:45 PM
@BartekBanachewicz what do you mean by succeeding? there's a lot of people who use and like C++. vendors make money off it.
 
39 secs ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@TonyTheLion state-of-the-art features implemented in a usable way
 
@BartekBanachewicz that's a moving target, right?
 
@TonyTheLion Maybe we are mostly witnessing inertia now.
 
If you make a Java 2 clone nowadays and slap lambdas on top that's hardly successful
2 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
C++ was a success in 2003
 
Would you still consider it successful today?
 
5:46 PM
@BartekBanachewicz sure.
 
@BartekBanachewicz you're right about that. People do use shit thrown at them. But PHP is used by millions of people, and therefore you could call it a success from that perspective
 
yes, but I don't consider that perspective important at all
if not PHP, they would code in JS, Java or whatever
masses don't care.
it's the pioneer successes that actually drive the thing forward
 
It has some importance, because what use is a state of the art language that nobody uses?
 
@TonyTheLion mainstream languages steal features from it
 
If you go and make some amazing language and nobody uses it, then it isn't very successful imho
 
5:47 PM
@ScottW Yeah. I've heard they are a pain in the ass.
You like pain in the ass though, don't you? :P
 
@TonyTheLion See, that's where you're wrong. Not every language was designed to be used.
Haskell's motto is Avoid success at all costs
where "success" falls under your definition
hence, my definition of success is slightly different to accomodate for that
 
well thats weird to me
 
@TonyTheLion that's how learning new things that differ from your beliefs about the world feels ;)
 
If Haskell is as amazing as you claim it to be, wouldn't you then want lots of people using it?
 
5:49 PM
@TonyTheLion not if that means degradation for en-masse adaptation
language quality would most certainly suffer
 
It doesn't necessarily have to mean that though
 
no, but that's not the risk anyone working on Haskell wants to take
keeping it in its niche is way better for it imho
that way it has way more freedom. Cue Python 3
 
I mean Industrial Haskell group is certainly trying to make it more widely used right now
because Haskell's ecosystem needs more manpower
 
right
 
5:50 PM
watching this again /cc @Mysticial
 
but I don't think they aim at completely replacing PHP or JS
 
why is this not a thing yet :(
 
@Borgleader I remember watching this
@BartekBanachewicz I doubt that would be a realistic goal too
 
I agree.
 
@Borgleader I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person who thinks there may be huge problems for the design.
Mainly the complete lack of backwards compatibility for existing architectures. I'm not sure how much emulation overhead it will take to make it work.
 
5:52 PM
@TonyTheLion then again, I'm pretty sure haskell's ecosystem values one dedicated professional way more than 100 newbies/people who code w/o passion/just for the money
 
But it may end up going down the same route as the Itanium.
 
this might contribute to creating the aura of eliticism
 
Emulation p much makes things unusable
 
@Mysticial Why do you need backwards compatibility for earlier architectures?
 
@Borgleader How is it going to enter the market then?
 
5:53 PM
Slowly?
 
@BartekBanachewicz ah yea I could see that
 
@Borgleader Like Itanium?
 
@Borgleader reality :S
In an ideal world I guess you could just bring it in as a new thing and it would be adopted, but people want their old shit working on new shit
 
@Mysticial Never heard of it, which I guess is the point
 
lots of shit basically :P
 
5:54 PM
content warning: 20th level troll cons his way into giving a speech at an anime convention. Literal LOLs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVDDnDzpoHM
Somebody watch this and tell me if it is really that bad or awesome.
 
Yeah I get why it would be nice to have backwards compat but... I mean you can run windows on ARM now
so I figure, maybe it could happen
 
@Borgleader Displacing x86 is more or less impossible
 
maybe
 
@chmod666telkitty: ^ You are the troll master. You watching it is mandatory.
 
there is always hope and love <3
 
5:55 PM
hi..
 
ARM is successful mostly because it didn't try and instead found a niche in low-power/embedded
 
does anyone have idea about batcher's odd even merge sort
 
Now displacing ARM there is more or less impossible :v
 
I went LEG architecture :P
 
@Borgleader Last time a company had that thought, it got fucked in the ass hard. 'twas called Intel.
 
5:56 PM
@TonyTheLion s/LEG/COCK/
 
@wilx It actually doesn't take much to give a panel at an Anime convention.
They don't do background checks.
 
Is youtube slow for everybody or just me?
 
Because if they did, everyone would fail.
 
Apple could get away with ditching PowerPC for x86 because they have the power to say 'recompile your shit, we don't care'
 
@Borgleader there is always a cock joke lurking around the corner
 
5:57 PM
A completely new architecture would have be really really really good and also have some killer application
 
@Jefery seems ok here
 
But even then it'll probably be a niche and not replace x86
BETTER GET USED TO IT
 
Fuck my internet then
 
The only thing good about x86 right now is that the vast majority of the SIMD stuff is completely RISC.
 
@Jefery You want me to fuck your internet with you :P
 
5:58 PM
If you have 5 minutes that would be appreciated, yes
 
All videos default to 144p and play bits of 1-2 seconds before buffering
Have I gone back to 56k modems without noticing?
 
I wondered that too
 

« first day (1867 days earlier)      last day (3072 days later) »