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2:00 PM
Recommendations?
 
I'm a bit scared to update FF XIII to get 1080p res
 
Today's dWTF gets +1 for style from me
 
a few people have reported losing their saved games
like, really few
but not sure if I want to risk it
I went through some 25 hours of tunnel traveling
 
@AlexM. Make a backup then
 
it's more like the new version not recognizing the old saves
no idea if it's even true (what those people said)
 
2:01 PM
@AlexM. hahaha. How about 6:45 :) Kids
 
it was like just 3 of them
 
@AlexM. Try the new version and then downgrade if that happens?
 
you can't downgrade on Steam :(
 
@orlp It gave me something around 2.406 million
 
I stopped autoupdates immediately after hearing that they'll release an update
 
2:02 PM
It's not accurate, but it tells me what kind of value I'm looking for
 
@CatPlusPlus lol
 
knowing about savegame issues being common after Wasteland 2 updates, back when I was playing it, I was like "fuck. FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK" when I saw it autoupdating
I was close to the end and didn't want to lose the saved games
it worked though :)
@sehe dad's favorite activity was telling me that I'm a fucking weirdo and that normal people wake up at 5 like him and go to work
if you ask me, he's the weird one not waking up at 11
 
LA Noire is really nice
 
Still with that shit?
FFS.
 
2:08 PM
kill goto
fuck people who use it forever
 
You need to learn to let go.
 
fuck people who can't use appropriate data structures
 
@BartekBanachewicz write some unit tests?
make them cover all cases and check for 1:1 matches?
 
@AlexM. fuck unit tests
 
Must remove goto even though I can't even tell if my complicated version is equivalent
 
2:09 PM
Bartek's version is definitely simpler
 
you'd rather believe a bunch of people telling you what they think they observe
 
whether or not it's the same is another matter.
 
than an unit test provably covering all cases
ok.
 
@AlexM. lol, indeed, there's only 43556142965880123323311949751266331066368 possible inputs
 
Goto has its uses. Here, I said it. I love goto!
 
2:10 PM
you don't enumerate the possible inputs silly
 
most inputs will be equivalent.
 
it's really just an
 
there's only 1, 0, and other.
and only 27 of them.
 
assert(oldFunction(input) == newFunction(input)); for all inputs
 
that's not that many bits.
you could feasibly enumerate all inputs I think
 
2:11 PM
~10^12
 
doable
it's not a complex function and you can run in parallel
 
@VáclavZeman you just think you do
 
@BartekBanachewicz No, I actually do. I use it when it is appropriate solution.
 
also ew global state /rightfold
int check() {
    int* view = ar;
 
could be a member function
 
2:14 PM
@VáclavZeman It's never an appropriate solution in a high-level programming language
 
that's true, but I thought he didn't change the scope
 
hint: nested numerical for loops are a low-level construct
 
grr goto
 
@BartekBanachewicz I also observe that if there's a 1 then the next 8 things are skipped over, which is a great many of the possible inputs.
so I think it should not be difficult to show that for all inputs, they are the same.
 
It's easier to just write a proof.
 
2:17 PM
also they're not the same.
 
@BartekBanachewicz You last two statements contradict. IMHO.
Goto is a solution even in high level language like C++.
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz that's why not many high level programming languages have it vOv
 
@VáclavZeman no, it's not, unless you're specifically writing low-level code in C++ for whatever bad reason.
 
Ell
I can't say I've ever used goto
 
2:21 PM
@AlexM. completely agreeing. sadly I don't get to choose such trivial life details
 
hmm not sure if my combining logic is correct.
 
@BartekBanachewicz: You have been brainwashed. You have accepted without thinking what people say. Have you actually read the Dijkstra article that started this goto-hate cult and understood it?
 
@Puppy for parallelization?
 
What do you think about continuations
Bartek
 
@Puppy also int i = start;
 
2:21 PM
@BartekBanachewicz No, just in general.
 
@CatPlusPlus I could go on an on about those
 
the original goto only skips over the remainder of the 9-sized block.
it does not skip 9 elements.
this is better expressed as a per-block function.
 
@CatPlusPlus you mean this?
@Puppy oh right
 
Ell
Woo got an interview at bristol
2
 
@Ell I'm not sure, but I think I remember using BASIC versions where GOSUB didn't yet exist? Or is this me remembering I was too noob to know that yet o.O
 
2:23 PM
@Ell Good job.
 
Ell
@Puppy Cheers
 
tell me when you're coming down and maybe we could meet in the pub.
 
Ell
@Puppy Will do :)
 
@VáclavZeman a) stop using ad hominem arguments. b) there's no case where goto is a proper solution. if you think it is, either your data structures are wrong, your abstractions are wrong, or you're just bad.
 
2:24 PM
the irony, eh? :D
 
not even a star
just... emptiness
 
@Ell good luck
 
Ell
@Puppy Though I might be going down with my family, so not sure
@BenjaminGruenbaum Thank you :)
 
@BartekBanachewicz take a break. perhaps
 
It'd be much better to close that two loops in a lambda and use return
Because
Goto
Can't say goto
 
2:26 PM
@CatPlusPlus Just did that.
 
@BartekBanachewicz fuck people who can't be appropriate. Oh wait
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, I checked if you converted it right.
You did not.
 
@BartekBanachewicz well, in some languages where better control structures are not available goto might be the only solution.
 
yeah, it's wrong
 
2:26 PM
Which does not proof that goto is useful.
 
@HansKlünder should be += remainder, not 9
 
Also return can be implemented with call/ec so they're all pretty much equivalent
And this grr goto nonsense is just that
 
IIt just shows you cannot proof that goto is useless be converting every possible source
 
@BartekBanachewicz There was no ad hominem attack. It was a simple statement of a fact.
 
2:27 PM
@VáclavZeman it's not a fact, it's your brainwashed opinion about brainwashed opinions
 
@HansKlünder It just shows that it's unnecessarily hard to reason about this kind of state-happy code :)
 
@BartekBanachewicz in any case, your version soes something different, e.g. compute a reminder.
 
fuck me
so what
it's probably way more efficient than yours anyway
 
just use whatever you want to use while programming guys
 
"Don't use goto" is a good rule of a thumb. But it is not iron clad "never use it or daemons will fly out of your nose" kind of rule.
 
2:28 PM
but don't use goto if you work with me
my mind is not trained to make such high jumps in code
 
12 hours ago, by sehe
#cpp optimizing: Debate prompts cmp. of nested loops w/early exit vs. recursive functions: http://goo.gl/GnkLga vs. http://goo.gl/ZPDlEx
 
@BartekBanachewicz I understand your reuqest to be fucked by me. I am a friendly person, often charming, quite helpful. Hearts fly to me. However, I must deny that request.
 
I lose my head in the spaghetti logic when gotos happen
 
@VáclavZeman yes, the iron clad rule is "don't write terrible code"
 
Instead, I concentrate on C++
 
2:28 PM
ew - that's worse than the nettle :)
 
OH MY GOD TRIVIAL USE OF GOTO CANT WRAP MY HEAD AROUND IT
7
 
no use of goto is trivial
 
@VáclavZeman that's about how I see it.
 
for fucks sake why do the terrible people invade this chatroom too
the hell is going on
 
2:29 PM
@CatPlusPlus well I obviously wasn't talking about loop: goto loop
 
I have deja vu
 
I thought we're at least a tiny bit sane here compared to the outside world
 
@BartekBanachewicz hold on:
 
at least when it comes to not writing terrible code
 
void foo(){
   goto next;
next:
   (void)0;
}
 
2:30 PM
@AlexM. I never see any spaghetti logic with goto that jumps only forward and only out of loops.
 
DONT USE LOOPS IN THE FIRST PLACE GOD
 
@BartekBanachewicz No True Scottsman wants to have a word with you
 
@BartekBanachewicz Use a tranquilizer instead
 
whatever, whatever, whatever
 
2:31 PM
@BartekBanachewicz if you teach prople should not use loops, why do you use them in the code you show me to be a better replacement for mine?
 
write whatever code you want in your terrible codebases
 
@HansKlünder Hey. I did that part right :)
 
just don't ever approach me with it
 
inb4 rage quit
 
cripes
 
2:31 PM
@BartekBanachewicz do you agree that some people find loops easier than collection methods?
 
do_draw:
	return(true);
nodraw:
	return(false);
lol using gotos to return immediately
 
@sehe your code is crystal clear
 
I wouldn't ever allow code using goto pass my code review
 
@BartekBanachewicz are you sure? I'd recommend it at the current rate. In your interest
 
2:32 PM
nope
 
@HansKlünder It had zarroo lubes
 
Only programmers deal in absolutes
7
 
@BartekBanachewicz you are free in your decision to accept minor code because it is free of goto.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Oh. I agree there. That seems to be unrelated to your current tantrum levels, though
 
@AlexM. lol parens around return expression.
 
2:33 PM
To be fair I'd never pass goto code review either.
 
@AlexM. lolwat
 
Except in extreme cases.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum when the center cannot hold!
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum that's like saying some people are more efficient in MUMPS than other languages, if mumps is the only language they know
 
@Griwes quality game programming pastebin.com/S7paenAW
 
2:34 PM
You must be fun to work with
 
@AlexM. my eyes burn
 
@BartekBanachewicz well, technically, they are
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum as in any case, you are free in sticking to global rules even if that might cause a suboptimal soluitno to be used sometimes.
 
if they only know one language, it's the language they're most efficient in
 
@HansKlünder because rewriting your code completely would most probably prompt either "OMG I don't understand those functional codes" or "but this code will produce a binary bigger by one byte"
3
 
2:34 PM
@chmod711telkitty OMG, it took me 4 hours to understand this. :D
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes. But, what's your beef with that.
If he doesn't want to rewrite his code, bless him. He can ly on the beach instead
 
@BartekBanachewicz right, but do you agree loops are easier than collection methods (not simpler) to some people? (Namely. people who are inexperienced)
 
@BartekBanachewicz Did you see the tweet?
 
@sehe still trying to understand the asm output, frankly
 
@BartekBanachewicz you are free to guess some assumptions about my code and publish them. I trust in that anybody waning to know how my code lokks like would ask me, not you.
 
2:36 PM
@HansKlünder consistency is so much more important than optimality in a code base. I'll take my chances
 
I'd venture that loops come from the same place as OOP: antropocentrism, the comforting feeling that you know what it does, because it's like what you did in kindergarten
5
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum yep, because non-programmers are experienced in performing imperative algorithms
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I disagree.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum if you do the reviews, you set the priorities.
 
@sehe that's a fancy way to say "they're easier to reason about"
 
2:36 PM
doesn't change the fact that imperative algorithms are quite often a bad way to express problems in the real world
 
I have to make a premake script to generate projects and I don't want tooooo
my god is this thing boring
I want to write some code or something
 
premake is the best build system I've found; which is not saying much.
 
@HansKlünder right, and in reviews a consistent code base is so much more important than an optimal one when working as a team. Of course if you're writing a compiler or are in a tight spot and it's the only option and you've exhausted other techniques and your compiler is a retard ymmv.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum not really
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Not really. They're more innate, maybe. But once you learn more you'll notice that unnatural things (formalisms/abstractions) are frequently much easier to reason about.
 
2:37 PM
@BartekBanachewicz if I add "for most people" would you agree?
 
@BartekBanachewicz the question was not if imperative algorithmes are often whatever. The question was if there exist at least one case in the world in which goto is useful.
 
@sehe yes, and I agree with that but if you had to estimate - what percent of programmers are terrible?
 
As opposed to your statement that no such case existst.
 
@HansKlünder yes, in low-level code
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum This is where human irrationality hides: we allow ourselves to equate "intuitive grasp" with "reasoning"
 
2:38 PM
@HansKlünder in high-level code it doesn't
because the very premise of high-level code is building programs using proper abstractions
 
@sehe we do. Something being easy is important - even if it is complex.
 
@sehe You should tweet this!
 
user1804599
Hola.
 
goto isn't a proper abstraction
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum what's the relevance. We're talking about whether things are easier to reason about. Not whether Jack in the streets would argue that he reckons something easier to reason about.
 
user1804599
2:39 PM
@CatPlusPlus Just don't import them.
 
@sehe "Jack in the streets" is 99% of programmers who are just content with their jobs and aren't looking for better answers or understand what they're doing at an abstract level.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum That's not true at all. Many complex things should be hard because you can't handle them for the programmer. So the only way to make them simple is to badly hack around it and generally fuck it up. So they should be difficult because they are difficult problems.
 
@BartekBanachewicz you may weaken your original claim until what remains from it is true. I am confident you will manage to do so. I refer to the original statement.
 
@HansKlünder no, that's what I was saying from the very beginning, ant this was my original statement
The transcript is available for you if you want to read it
 
Did something change in C++14 w.r.t. braced initializers and/or generated ctors? This is GCC with -std=c++14 (-std=c++11 behaves the same); this is clang with -std=c++11 and this is clang with -std=c++14.
 
2:40 PM
@BartekBanachewicz no, you spoke about high level programming languages,
Not high level programming.
 
@HansKlünder how's that different
 
@Puppy Even if problems are difficult at the general case - giving an easy answer like a loop that's easy to reason about without formalism to the layman developer is beneficial in practice and helps create real software around the world. Wanna guess what percent of programmers understand something as basic as a fold?
 
GCC behaves the same in both modes, but clang doesn't... and accepts the code in C++14.
 
if you write low-level code in a high-level language, it doesn't mean jack shit that the language is high-level in this case
either you're dumb or you have to use low-level constructs because something
 
@Griwes I remember some change but I cannot pin it right now.
 
2:41 PM
@HansKlünder now you're just trying to drag @BartekBanachewicz into semantics...
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum It's not beneficial in practice because it only aids in creating software that more experienced developers simply have to re-write.
 
@BartekBanachewicz C++ is considered a high level language and I found a case in which goto is useful in C++. I am fine if you say "that's no high level programming".
 
it's only beneficial in pushing out shit that other people then have to fix.
 
@BartekBanachewicz because precious bytes and terribad compilers
 
user1804599
goto is good.
 
user1804599
2:42 PM
It's very useful when generating code.
 
@HansKlünder There are no real cases where goto is useful in C++.
They all hint at terrible code.
 
you should only make things easy if they really can be easy.
 
@Puppy 20 percent of the internet is written in WordPress. It's a horrible framework on top of a horrible language with tons of broken abstractions for harder problems but that 20% of the internet seems to work just fine.
 
@rightføld your code does count as "terrible".
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Really? Because all of those critical security vulnerabilities would disagree.
 
user1804599
2:42 PM
I use goto in my VM because I'm too lazy to make functions.
 
@HansKlünder that example used nested loops, which made it bad on its own. Show me an example of good code where goto is used.
 
You're building on a premise that goto is somehow more low level than whatever
 
@VáclavZeman Alright, so that'd mean that clang is probably right. Gimme a moment, I'll ask it properly on SO.
@rightføld Exactly.
 
(also you have no idea how much developer time was spent on WP so it's an impossible comparison)
 
@CatPlusPlus because it is
 
2:42 PM
It lets you be lazy.
That makes it terribad.
 
it's like comparing a loop to a higher-order manipulators
 
@BartekBanachewicz, 5 minutes ago you requested me to fuck you, now you guess that I am dumb. This Lounge it not about the kind of poeple you prefer to be fucked by. This is about C++.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum But we were talking to each other.
 
So, it would be nice if you stick to the technology.
 
God fucking dammit the retarded "retry in 1 second" message.
 
2:43 PM
goto hell;
hell: // ;_;
 
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus Oh completely disabling all of them. Shiny.
 
talk ad rem, not ad hominem.
 
on the contrary, the Lounge is very much about who you'd like to fuck
 
@BartekBanachewicz Because...
 
2:43 PM
@Puppy most sites are set to auto-update so they're spared from those. And it's not as if Yesod never had a vulnerability - god knows ASP.NET on C# had its share. I agree that better abstractions make defects more rare and easier to spot when they do occur but at the end of the day economically it's economics.
 
@Puppy That's my description of the Windows UX fail
 
@HansKlünder nested loops are bad.
there you go.
 
@BartekBanachewicz stop trying to insult me if you have no arguments. I don't feel insulted. I just see that you miss the point. This is about C++, not about me.
 
@BartekBanachewicz the level of programming :)
 
2:44 PM
@HansKlünder I'm not insulting you. I'm telling you that your code is bad.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yes, and it's practically impossible to account the amount of work done on WP or guess at how much cheaper it would be to build and use if it was done properly, and it's also just a guess about how much the extra costs are. So it's realistically impossible to judge by this one example. Unless you're omniscient.
 
@sehe yes, but I think those 99% mean a lot when you're building a language, or a framework.
 
@BartekBanachewicz having lost your original claim about goto, you want to discuss another, with is wrong as well? Now you claim about nested loops?
 
> If the number of initializer clauses is less than the number of members or initializer clauses is completely empty, the remaining members are initialized by their brace-or-equal initializers, if provided in the class definition, and otherwise (since C++14) by empty lists, which performs value-initialization.
hmm.
 
2:45 PM
Oh goto again. I guess it's better than the 'V' word.
 
user1804599
lol arguing about goto with a haskell fanboy
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I still don't see the relevance. We were talking about reasonability, not subjective user friendliness. Different things
 
I am pretty sure that GCC fails at the "since C++14" part, but... doesn't the first part mean my code should be legal in both C++11 and C++14?
 
@BartekBanachewicz within a few minute you said: "fuck me" and "either you are dumb ..." and a few other things that were ratrher personal.
 
@Puppy it was just an example, a lot of developers are solving uninteresting problems and are not enjoying it - you're in a minority since you a) like programming and b) work on interesting stuff in your free time - for the non-interesting database-skin developer they'd rather solve easy problems than simple ones and not have to learn and when someone is designing a language often they care about those developers for adoption.
 
2:46 PM
In general, in find it helpful in technical discussions to argue ad rem, not ad hominem.
 
@HansKlünder I'm telling you that your use case of goto appears okay because it stems from bad code example in the first place. Have you not used nested loops, you wouldn't need goto.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Is Yesod named after ASP.NET's YSOD?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum What they'd rather do is irrelevant. What matters is what they need to do. Something they have already realized else they would not have a job solving boring problems.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's a word in Hebrew, means "Element"
 
Ha. Just too much of a coincidence, I guess.
 
2:47 PM
isn't cabal also a word for something something hebrew
 
@BartekBanachewicz nested loops were the best solution in that case. It reflected the problem best, and it consumed the least space. Space was extremely restricted.
 
@HansKlünder FWIW he didn't discredit your argument based on the fact you said it. That's what an ad hominem argument is. He merely insulted you.
11
(which can be argued as being even worse)
 
Bartek is still young and idealistic. That will change with age. By the age of 35 he will be using goto as well. My assessment and prediction. :)
 
user1804599
Kabbalah (Hebrew: קַבָּלָה‎, literally "receiving/tradition" (also transliterated Cabala, Qabbālâ etc.; different transliterations now tend to denote alternative traditions)) is an esoteric method, discipline, and school of thought that originated in Judaism. A traditional Kabbalist in Judaism is called a Mekubbal (Hebrew: מְקוּבָּל‎). Kabbalah's definition varies according to the tradition and aims of those following it, from its religious origin as an integral part of Judaism, to its later Christian, New Age, and Occultist syncretic adaptations. Kabbalah is a set of esoteric teachings meant to...
 
you're bad at predictions, @Vaclav
 
2:48 PM
ad what
 
@BartekBanachewicz We will see in 10 years? :)
 
@rightføld Qa'pla!
 
use english you weird caesars
 
user1804599
ad vertisement
 
We had code reviews, too, and it turned out that everybody preferred a solution that yould be compiled into the device was better than one that had no goto and reauired us to replace all our hardware.
 
2:48 PM
@sehe @Puppy I'll clarify, I believe that while at an abstract level when building abstract programs loops and goto are not very beneficial - practically they are useful for most developers.
 
user1804599
@Puppy Qu'est-ce que c'est?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum The overwhelming popularity of Linq seems to handsomely contradict this generalization, e.g.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I disagree that they're beneficial in the long term. They simply appear easier, which they may or may not actually be.
 
> As of the December 10, 2014 patch, Shorttrain has been removed from the demolition map group, although the map can still be played directly via the console with the changelevel or map commands.
good work Valve
remove the map but keep the "win 5 times on this map" achievement for it
 
@HansKlünder hahahahahahaha
 
2:50 PM
lol achievements
 
I want to do CS GO achievements (100%)
 
@HansKlünder It sounds like you think that the world is black and white.
 
I think achievements are nice
if done properly they're like meta-missions
 
@sehe you'd be surprised what loops I've had to jump through to get people to use LINQ in C# at places I consulted to.
 
2:51 PM
For an example: Intel write a lot of C# here and didn't use LINQ at their office here.
 
please don't jump trough loops
 
Lol, that's goto right there.
 
the problem here is that the programmer does not know the most effective means of achieving his goal.
 
Don't ruin the pun!
 
2:51 PM
lel
 
that is independent of whether or not it's actually better.
 
you know what
let's do something productive instead
 
you're going to drop it?
finally
 
So many ways to write dumb code.
 
2:52 PM
@Griwes How to you get the impression that I think the world is black and white? I am so used about people gues about me that I do not even care to correct that impression, but I am courious what brought you to it.
 
@AlexM. yeah, I need to make dinner and take my clothes out of the washing machine
 
playing with parser combinators is really satisfying. You never write anything complex, just small, simple building blocks
strangely apt
 
@HansKlünder "Either we do goto or have to replace everything". That's pretty much what you wrote in that message, basically.
 
@Griwes No, it's not.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum oh, do you think I'm from a different planet? Of course. However, this detracts not a single thing from the overwhelming popularity of Linq.
 
user1804599
2:54 PM
@sehe monadic parser combinators are very nice.
 
@Griwes well - we would not have to replace our coffee machines, but the main boards on which our products used to run, and that would have been quite expensive.
 
monadic parser combinators are the best thing ever
 
user1804599
Don't like try though.
 
user1804599
I wish it were implicit.
 
user1804599
2:54 PM
(Fuck performance.)
 
@sehe I'm not arguing against LINQ, I found it simpler and better from the day I learned it - I'm saying that a lot of developers I've met in person did not use it.
 
@Griwes that's why for quite a while I had the specific task to make the code shorter.
 
@rightføld try has semantics distinct from its absence, no?
 
@Griwes the executable code
 
I wonder how many hardware units the company has to make in order to really make such microoptimizations worthwile
instead of simply publishing on ARM SoCs
 
2:55 PM
Related:
58
Q: Why is the use of abstractions (such as LINQ) so taboo?

Matthew Patrick CashattI am an independent contractor and, as such, I interview 3-4 times a year for new gigs. I am in the midst of that cycle now and got turned down for an opportunity even though I felt like the interview went well. The same thing has happened to me a couple of times this year. Now, I am not a per...

 
@BenjaminGruenbaum sehe is not arguing in favour of LINQ though. He mentioned it is incredibly popular.
 
@Griwes I've been looking for ways to say that. Hyperbola and Strawman lurking there. It's a sign of a bad loser. Although, I couldn't find a way in which to make it fair or constructive (your comment being neither of those). .
In these heated debates Hans is clearly the one who regularly checks in with reality and tries to refocus on the debate
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes - and I am attempting to challenge the claim its incredibly popular. I think it's mostly incredibly popular among developers who visit sites like Stack Overflow. Or good (tm) programmers who code C#. I'm not convinced those are the majority.
 
@BartekBanachewicz you can wonder for quite a while. A better strategy might be to ask me, but it's your decision.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum That's better than the anecdote about your colleagues :P
 
user1804599
2:57 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum Because Java lacks it lololol.
 
@sehe Sure, I purposely oversimplified what he said, but... that's almost what it boils down to.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I know. And then come the fanboys who love the koolaid but actually don't know what they're causing. And then software crawls to a halt or we get many victims of Action At A Distance bugs
 
Wow holy shit I wrote an answer in favor of == in JS although it is horrible playing devil's advocate and it got 37 upvotes -_-.
 
@Griwes for you
 
@AlexM. well technicaly for,while,try/catch are well hidden gotos
 
2:58 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum punishment :)
 
And he stands by that even after we've shown him that he doesn't need goto to get small binaries. I'm pretty sure his compiler wasn't so bad it couldn't do a few simple optimizations.
 
@sehe that's the argument against LINQ in a nutshell - that people don't understand deferred execution.
 
@Griwes It's not. He told an anecdote.
 
@sehe have you heard of == in JS? It's absolutely horrible.
 
user1804599
That's why I fixed == in LasagnaScript.
 
2:59 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes He ties to use that anecdote as an irrefutable argument for more than 12 hours now.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum That's a normative statement. You think something is wrong/a disadvantage. I'm just looking at the unrelenting popularity.
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix s/well hidden/extensions of/
 
@Griwes An anecdote is enough for his argument.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum yes. I hear it's good competition for PHP
 
Don't strawman it.
 
2:59 PM
Anecdotes without any solid examples aren't really arguments.
 
In mathematical logic, a witness is a specific value t to be substituted for variable x of an existential statement of the form ∃x φ(x) such that φ(t) is true. == Examples == For example, a theory T of arithmetic is said to be inconsistent if there exists a proof in T of the formula "0=1". The formula I(T), which says that T is inconsistent, is thus an existential formula. A witness for the inconsistency of T is a particular proof of "0 = 1" in T. Boolos, Burgess, and Jeffrey (2002:81) define the notion of a witness with the example, in which S is an n-place relation on natural numbers, R is an...
 

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