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6:00 PM
why the hell does sonic need to access my call logs on android
 
Because Android apps are shit
 
yeah but it's like
a game
why does a game need anything more than internet and maybe facebook contacts
 
And Android developers, too
 
Looks like the troll posted another one.
 
@PaulMcKenzie: That hasn't been true for 15 years, being a restriction in C89 that was removed by C99. Still, yes, this should be tagged C or C++. — Lightness Races in Orbit 53 secs ago
Can you guess what I'm talking about?
 
6:02 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Uh... declaration only at the beginning of scope?
 
@AlexM. To figure out the 10 people it should call to let them know when you set a new high score, of course.
 
@Xarn :D
oops, I fucked up that link didn't I
LOL
fixed
 
It is my single most hated thing about working with old C. Or rather with people who think that C99 and its features are too new / controversial.
 
I remember now why I uninstalled CodeXL and that's because it totally doesn't even work
 
Seriously people, if at this point your compiler has trouble with C99, get a new one. Yes, VLA's are controversial, and embedding them in struct is actually illegal, but declaring variables at the start of a function is just dumb.
 
6:06 PM
@JerryCoffin 10 people? in my call log?
ha.
there's just my mum in my call log.
:(
 
Because who are we kidding, they are always declared at the start of a function and never at the start of appropriate scope otherwise.
 
@Xarn Ok. I'll do it!
 
sonic will be disappoint
 
Anyway, my rant is now over, I am going out. :-D
 
C programmers are bad at programming, news at 11
5
Ahahahaha
> Dear ,
>
> We are pleased to inform you that your application to NVIDIA GameWorks™ Registered Developer Program is approved.
gjob
 
6:08 PM
Is that empty or some invisible unicode character?
 
And that "please destroy all copies of the message" bullshit at the end
 
@CatPlusPlus Ah yes, the classic "This message is confidential and if you are not the intended recipient, delete it or you are breaking the law" bullshit.
Okay, now I am actually out. :-)
 
I wonder who the intended recipient was in this case
 
nVidia now's your chance to assert superiority over AMD in the realm of tools
 
> the realm of tools
 
6:12 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Obviously the comma
Yeah who am I kidding all tools are shit
 
> sally mr. plz, 2 wedding
didn't even have to look that up. i'm awesome
 
@Xarn Better advice: just don't write C.
 
@CatPlusPlus more at 11.
 
@Xarn I used to open new scopes deliberately. Pretty much the same thing we do with RAII nowadays. { boost::mutex::scoped_lock lock(mutex); shared_counter++; } - in C89 though the code looked like a wall, full of blocks :-(
 
6:19 PM
@CatPlusPlus is it bad?
 
Ell
I love the mighty boosh
 
fuck VC++, its updates and ICEs. I have an ICE which was fixed in update2, but I can't install update2 because I don't have enough of free space on c:\
dammit I really have to reinstall Windows to clean all the shit
 
6:37 PM
my C is 111GB in size
with 54GB free
wait that's kinda little
wtf
for some reason C:\Users\AlexM is 20GB in size
but if I just go through normal folders I can barely find 8GB of data tops
what sort of shenanigans are these
 
AppData is hidden
 
yeah but appdata\local is like 2GB only
the others are less than 1GB in total
let me run disk cleanup
1.17GB freed, what a great fucking progress
meh whatever
I bet it's VS taking all of that space somehow
 
maybe throw windirstat at it try to get a handle on what is eating up the space? windirstat.info
 
I'd install a 3rd party program but that takes effort
I'll think again when I'm at < 40GB free
 
@C.Trauma ...or TreeSize
 
6:49 PM
hahaha yep
good one too
or portable
then just nuke it when you are done with it
 
windirstat is pretty good
 
portable is ok
seriously
 
yea.. it just dumps it in a directory
it is how they are all packaged
not a real installer
it just unpacks it
 
real installers probably shouldn't do much more than just dump it in a directory
 
^
 
6:53 PM
pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
 
there are pacmans running around
 
Installation to hidden directory should be done at first start up and you can just place the executable wherever you want.
 
it analyzed this pretty quickly, done already
must be because SSD
oh
the fucking android sdk takes 12GB
 
I usually just use uniExtract anyway to avoid all the install scripting if there is no archive for DL
 
I'll delete some system images
 
6:56 PM
that is of course when I'm slumming on windows.. :)
 
there's the full series of game programming gems at my workplace... except for the first volume
which means I can't read any ffs
 
lol yeah, "game programming".
 
I hope the android image I've been using to test my program isn't among those that I'm deleting now
 
I like how game programming is distinct from actual programming
 
"It's like actual programming, but we don't bother with the quality!"
 
7:01 PM
btw this comes in handy too if you need a util, only have the msi and want to avoid the installation lessmsi.activescott.com
 
ah there we go
freed ~10GB
 
What do you need to free 10GB for?
 
clearly so that it can be used for some other purpose.
 
^
and I wasn't really using all those android images anyway
I always installed what I thought I'd use someday
but had no idea they took that much space
 
You should get buy more space instead of deleting useful things
 
7:10 PM
Only 3% of my disk space is used, lel.
 
Only 3% of my desk space is unused.
 
lol non-SSD fail
 
I have an SSD.
 
what's the disk usage percentage of that
 
I might get an SSD cache
 
7:11 PM
3%.
 
After buying another 2TB real man's storage disk
 
you have an SSD, but you use only 3% of it?
 
62GB free on my 128GB ssd right now
 
though for some reason only 111GB are usable
 
7:12 PM
I don't have anything else to store on it.
There's only OS, editors, compilers, interpreters and code.
 
Windows alone would be 4.5% of the biggest SSD I've seen, 480GB.
 
Yeah, but lol Windows.
 
Ubuntu partition is ~25% of my SSD in total.
 
~15GB is in use on my disk.
 
and it's nearly full up
hmm
 
7:14 PM
Total size of 1333 files in vm: 96.91 GB
 
not sure what textual format to store metadata in.
 
+1 JSON
 
Ell
yaml
 
7:15 PM
@Puppy well what does visual studio take too?
10GB or sth
maybe more
 
Don't listen to those clowns, I know best
 
my whole of Program Files clocks in at 9.3GB.
and Visual Studio 12.0 clocks in at 2.1GB.
 
> Wikipedia lists only a few countries where nodding and shaking are reversed: Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria and Albania.
just imagined living in a place where nodding and shaking are inverted
it would be very weird
 
I only know about it because it was a plot point in one of the Pink Panther games
 
and I'd probably get killed by someone
 
7:17 PM
22.5GB for Windows, 13.8GB of code (7.3GB of LLVM/Clang, 3.7GB of Wide, 2.1GB of Boost)
 
@CatPlusPlus I played that! They were great.
 
hmm
not sure how to actually convert the data I want to represent to a string.
 
repr(data)
 
perhaps it would be much easier to simply re-use the machinery I already have, and coincidentally express the Wide metadata as Wide source code.
 
@LucDanton Yeah
@Puppy Total size of 575577 files in apps: 24.10 GB :v
And that's plus whatever's in PF
 
Ell
7:24 PM
@Puppy what data is it?
 
@Ell Binary export metadata.
so "Function X taking args Y and Z exported under name W"
 
Ell
and you want to serialize it as json or whatnot?
 
yeah.
 
Ell
what is name W btw?
 
random, effectively.
 
7:26 PM
Why not Narrow?
 
Ell
and X is the "unmangled" name?
 
Wide does not have name mangling.
the binary export name is a random UUID.
 
That is name mangling :v
 
what does :v mean?
 
I figure that to count as name mangling, you'd have to be able to reproducibly go from "Function F in module M with args X and Y" to W.
 
7:27 PM
Also you could probably make it deterministic by just hashing the input
 
@StackedCrooked It's a keyword named "v"
 
I don't want it to be deterministic.
 
Calling into Wide from other languages will be fun.
 
the metadata will have all the information you need.
you don't have to parse the Wide source and then try to come up with it yourself.
 
So yeah I rebuild the same version of the thing and all my FFI stopped working why
 
7:29 PM
nobody cares how you arrived at W when you just tell them what W is.
 
Doesn't that essentially break ABI on rebuild?
 
nope
you can export as existing metadata.
 
Ell
Can't you just make it super simple?
{
  "name": "foo",
  "args": ["string", "int"],
  "uuid": "5ba7d9c9-8ac1-41d0-bcd2-1a8c7ab53d1e"
}
idk :L
 
you have to export as existing metadata.
 
Two people who build the same thing does not necessarily know about each other
 
7:30 PM
@Puppy sounds like XY to me. So, no, everybody cares
 
no, but they do both have to export as the same metadata interface.
 
What does that even mean
 
the metadata interface promises a binary interface, and you can plug in any implementation that meets that contract.
so when you compile a module, you just tell the compiler what interface you're implementing.
 
I take library X, modify a thing because some other program Y using it needs a workaround or whatever, and drop it in
I don't have anything that was used to build the original binary
Or not even workaround, because I have a security bug and 0.0.1 version increment fixes it
 
the vendor of Library X has to make his binary interface metadata available for anyone who wants to be able to link to it.
 
7:33 PM
They're jerks and didn't
 
well, that's like complaining that you can't link to Library Z because you don't have the headers.
 
You can link to library Z just fine without headers.
 
Why do I need an external piece of information to rebuild a thing from the source I have
 
because you don't know what the calling code in the other module is expecting.
 
7:34 PM
Oh well.
 
Uh, yes I do, the same goddamn thing it has right now
 
that is not necessarily the same thing.
 
Which is what I expect to get from the build
 
for example
 
Non-deterministic builds are really bad idea hth
 
7:34 PM
consider that you have v1 of library X, which exports a struct that has two ints in it.
then v2 of library X changes this struct to have three ints in it.
 
@CatPlusPlus Especially if that non-determinism is at the interface level.
 
how does the compiler know whether the calling code expects the v1 or v2 interface?
 
You have enough information to generate a mapping from whatever's needed to identify that thing to a name, but refuse to use a deterministic method of arriving at such mapping
 
@Puppy Who cares.
 
7:35 PM
idgi
 
Consider zero change.
 
@Puppy not heard of soname?
 
no.
 
user2684182
hi
 
7:36 PM
This essentially breaks all dynamically linked software
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You can't assume that there is simply no change.
 
@Puppy Who cares.
 
What the hell are you talking about
 
Your scheme breaks when there is no change.
That's...
 
there's no problem when there is no change.
 
7:36 PM
I don't know. Stupid as fuck.
 
Of course there is a problem, source code is no longer enough to reproduce the binary
 
your counter-example is "you can never link to anything because you don't know what the version is". your approach is "you can always link to anything but you never have a stable ABI; you just pray". the reality is that you encode version information into the library and be fucking done with it, like everybody else ever
 
tabs in xcode are actually instances of the same whole thing
so each tab comes with its own project explorer and shit
so weird
 
So now you have to version build artifacts alongside the source, and hope nobody forgets about it
 
and package them together
 
7:37 PM
They better not be building on a RAMdisk!
Because losing metadata means you can't reproduce that interface ever again
 
@AlexM. For a moment I thought you were talking about tab characters.
 
you can't forget about it, since they need those build artifacts to be able to do anything with the resulting binary... and the compiler packages them together by default.
 
Which means you can't deliver hotfixes
Or do non-breaking changes of any sort
 
^urg
 
@AlexM. in a way that's similar to how modern browsers are, with the tabs at top and address bar etc underneath
@AlexM. but I agree it's weird as hell in that scenario
 
7:39 PM
@CatPlusPlus Every change is breaking because you can't assume it isn't!
 
Hmm....
 
@AlexM. That's how it works with vim.
 
@Puppy: Heard of ABI-compatible patch revisions?
 
It's like requiring debug symbols from previous compilation to rebuild the image the same way
 
You are prohibiting them.
 
7:39 PM
There were some special rules for str[0] where str is a string, right? Is it safe to read str[0] even when str is empty string?
 
Suddenly the entire purpose of shared libraries is just .... kaput.
 
@VáclavZeman Yes. It's always null.
 
Why not enforce static linking. It'd be safer and absolutely no less featuresome than your approach.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Cool. Even in 2003 standard?
 
7:40 PM
No Linux distro will ever accept any program written in Wide
5
 
@VáclavZeman str[str.size()] is '\0' as of C++11
 
Damn, thanks.
 
This was "sometimes" the case in C++03 implementations.
 
well, it's really the exact opposite, because when you know what binary interface you're supposed to be exporting, then you have a lot more power to meet that interface in subsequent versions without requiring programmer intervention.
for example, you could implicitly PIMPL new members to a struct.
 
Puppy's right, the entirety of the remainder of the software world is wrong. Bored of this now
 
7:43 PM
yes, having a new idea and discussing the pros and cons is totally an illegitimate thing to do.
 
I think you should read some material on how libraries are deployed and maintained.
 
how could I suggest a new approach to binary versioning.
 
Ok, never mind, I will add #if __cplusplus < 201103L with check against empty string.
 
Ell
@Puppy So in wide you can effectively specify the ABI yourself? I don't think I understand entirely
 
@Puppy It's not an illegitimate thing to talk about your idea, but it's stupid to claim that it makes any sense whatsoever.
 
7:44 PM
@Ell To be more accurate, the sourcing compiler specifies the ABI. The destination compiler just accepts it. That way, they don't have to be kept in sync.
 
I really like how shared libraries work today :/ I’m not necessarily super fond of the toolchains and workflows to produce them, but subsequent use is neat.
 
@VáclavZeman Nice
 
Sourcing compiler?
 
for example, there's no reason why two Wide compilers have to agree on data member layout.
 
So you do require build artifacts to become part of the source.
 
7:45 PM
or vtable layout.
 
2 days ago, by Lightness Races in Orbit
Y'know, I've become convinced that Puppy is always just perpetrating an elaborate troll.
If someone came into this room and said these things, Puppy, you'd laugh them out. (Probably after instructing them to kill themselves or somesuch)
Your new drugs have messed up your brain
 
yes, when someone suggests a new approach to a problem that can clearly achieve things that the existing approaches can't, then it's clearly incorrect.
 
@Puppy It's not incorrect because you suggested it. It's incorrect because of all the reasons you've been given over the last thirty minutes.
 
user2684182
Wait, can you use markdown in the chatrooms?
 
@Th0masR0ss No.
 
7:47 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit The only reason I've observed is that losing the original interface file you used to export the module the first time would be ... problematic.
 
@Puppy Then you should scroll up and re-read the conversation.
 
user2684182
@LightnessRacesinOrbit How'd you italicize?
 
@Th0masR0ss You can't.
 
@Th0masR0ss Stop not reading the rules.
 
I don't see any italics from here.
 
7:47 PM
They clearly state that you can and how you can do it.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes hunter2
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I am re-reading it and requiring part of the output of the original compilation of a module is the only serious one mentioned. Otherwise, actually having that data implies that you can automatically resolve all sorts of ABI mismatches that substantially increase the flexibility of the system.
 
@Puppy You're ignoring 50% of the reasons given.
 
ABI mismatches are detected today.
 
well, mangled name mismatches are.
 
7:50 PM
No.
 
@Puppy You increase the flexibility in this one way, at the expense of a lot of useful/safe features that exist today. That's not progress.
@Puppy No, soname mismatches are. It's called versioning.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Assuming that you don't have the problem of not having the original export davailable, I don't see what other issues you'd run into.
 
You're basically taking a decent versioning system and going Chrome on its arse. Let's do away with major/minor compatibility! Just have a single, randomly increasing number and make everyone rebuild every time! Yeah!
@Puppy That's because you're not listening.
You've been told a few times now
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Why would you have to rebuild every time? You can rebuild a dynamic library against the original export data just as easily as a static one.
the export data only specifies a binary contract... how that contract is linked in is more-or-less irrelevant.
 
7:53 PM
I've been trying to come up with the perfect workshop layout for a week. Played for half an in-game year and then the game has been paused for a week while I design the perfect workshop/stockpile layout. I should probably get to actually playing the fucking game.
 
C.f. whenever my loader complains because the right libstdc++.so isn’t found when I’m mixing compilers and not setting LD_LIBRARY_PATH right or similar.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I always think Picard looks like Robben in that picture.
 
@PolymorphicPotato haha can't unsee
 
Wait.
Puppy knows who Robben is?
 
no.
 
7:54 PM
You misread avatars or something, Robot
 
To be fair, I [very briefly] did that too
@LightnessRacesinOrbit - Haven't done any coding using C99, so good to know. — PaulMcKenzie 2 hours ago
what
 
Ell
I wish we could have a discussion where people didn't get frustrated here
like, one of you make a point and then the next person should try to refute that point
 
@Ell WILL YOU JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP PLEASE
 
7:55 PM
@Ell GRRRRRRRRRRRR ARGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHh
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit yessir. :(
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Paranoia about the reality of my experience dismissed then.
 
@Ell ;)
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well I wouldn't get too comfortable...
 
Don't worry. I ascended in NetHack. Paranoia is my middle name.
 
7:56 PM
@Ell Yeah, I don't get it either.
 
@Ell Thing is, we do. The frustration comes when the refutation is repeatedly ignored.
So you need to apply your wish to the meta
 
you neglected to put in about 95% of it.
I have no idea what dynamic linking has to do with the system I proposed.
 
@Puppy No you just ignored 95% of it
hahaha
 
Ell
Calm down children
why don't we try again?
 
7:57 PM
@Ell I'm calm.. I'm laughing
 
well, I read it, and you said "Therefore dynamic linking is impossible" without stating why.
 
Ell
silence in the court
 
@Puppy I said a lot more than that. Read the message directly preceding it, for example.
 
Ell
puppy, please make your case
 
@Ell oh god don't
his case has WRITTEN BY PUPPY stamped all over it, and we can't have that can we
 
7:59 PM
well, actually, I read the whole thing again and I'm definitely still not seeing what dynamic linking has to do with it.
why should the compiler not be able to produce a dynamic binary that meets an existing interface, any more than a static binary?
 
Perhaps, then, it's time to take up something like pottery
@Puppy That's the point. You break the interface each time. You never meet it.
 

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