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7:00 AM
@StackedCrooked Maybe because it sounds like "We're skipping all of the hard stuff and calling it a day"?
 
@StackedCrooked Modules are an inherently hard problem. So when I think of 'minimalist design' from the POV of a standard paper I always think of very lazy approach of doing it. Like they're half-assing it like they tend to do.
I'm still reading the paper though since I'm really curious.
 
Minimalist design sounds to me like non-bloated design.
And not close doors for future improvements.
 
I don’t know of a soft spot for modules—at least from a source point of view. First-class parametric modules are full-featured and crazy in all kind of (good) ways, but that’s a long way away. What are you guys looking for? Good requirements on actual implementations?
 
@LucDanton Dunno. I was commenting on the sentence as it stood, where modules are not even mentioned.
 
To me it’s ‘specify module, get back symbol’ at the minimum. Not much room for more. I suppose there’s hiding and aliasing, too.
 
7:03 AM
I don't think my requirements would make it. It seems ambitious.
Though I'd really like it
I like Python and Haskell's way of doing things.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Okay but the sentence comes from the paper (I think) :Þ I like minimalism though…
 
Yeah it is from the paper.
 
Will modules affect the binary layout of object code?
 
The two are unrelated.
 
I think I’ve mentioned the recurring joke in the Haskell community about sucky modules before. After a bit of using Haskell, I must admit that the situation (although perhaps not the module system itself directly) is kinda unsatisfying. I’ve never expressed that here since that would be somewhat cruel :Þ
 
7:08 AM
> A central tenet of this proposal is that a module system for C++ has to be
an evolution of the conventional compilation model. The immediate consequence
is that it has to inter-operate with the existing source file inclusion model while
solving the significant problems and minimizing those that can’t be completely
solved.
 
For all I know, the C++ community is going to be very enthusiastic about concepts and we’ll parametrize ‘by hand’, as we’ve always done.
@Rapptz Red alert!
I’d rather FFI to pre-module C++ binaries than have half-way measures :s
 
But minimalist design!
 
the context for that came from the paragraph saying using the preprocessor is okay in modules (I think)
 
Ok, I should go soon.
 
this doesn't seem very promising so far :(
it really seems minimalist so far
import std.vector does look sexy though
 
7:14 AM
> At Issaquah, this was interpreted as meaning that writing to one copy of an output iterator invalidates writing through the original output iterator.
Output iterators are copyable types with move-only semantics.
 
@LucDanton auto_ptr?
 
Yup :(
 
> Should a module interface declaration be required in a source file distinct
from the file that contains its implementation?
Should both the interface and implementation of a module be contained in a
single source file?
what do you guys think about these questions?
 
I think the standard paper should contain questions such as those. :P
 
they are in the paper
it's answered too
I guess
 
7:17 AM
@Rapptz Guy still has no idea.
 
Given the consensus-style decision making of the committee(s), it is very important to leave no assumption unstated. To ensure that everyone is talking about the same thing.
 
@Rapptz I mean THE STANDARD.
 
> copy(v.begin(), v.end(), std::ostream_joiner(cout, {"(", ", ", ")"}))
Sadly not the candidate version so far. Can only specify the (inner) delimiter.
 
> The answers to both questions should be “no”. Requiring a module interface
declaration to be provided in a file distinct from the implementation file, while in
general sound advice, is too constraining a requirement to accommodate all C++
libraries and programs. It should be possible for a module author to provide a
single source file containing both the module interface and implementations (of
both exported and non-exported entities) have the compiler automatically generate
the appropriate information containing exported declarations.
 
@LucDanton "(", ", ", ")" looks horrible without highlighting.
 
7:19 AM
it does
well
despite being minimalist
I kind of like it so far
 
Minimalism good.
 
you choose what symbols to export apparently
 
fffff I need to go for groceries but can’t be bothered
 
IMHO we should stop glorifying IOStreams with new algorithm helpers and just redesign the whole thing from scratch.
 
I think they're going for something like this
module std.vector;

export {
    template<typename T, typename Alloc> class std::vector;
}
 
7:21 AM
@Rapptz The paper you linked can't do multiple module blocks in one module right? And must be at the top?
 
Looks more like a module introduction statement, in fact.
@MarkGarcia Good point, weaving in delimiters is useful regardless of streams.
Okay, I have to confess that I feel very, very overwhelmed by all the SC activity these days. I’m still not done reading the Trip Report, and I’m just taking a quick glance…
 
@LucDanton I meant redesigning IOStreams, though (from what I've deduced from your statement) it would be better that way.
 
I know, I couldn’t resist :D I do think that in this case iostreams design has nothing to do with what the iterator aims to achieve (i.e. you can notionally plug it to a byte sink).
 
I'm going to be really mad if I can't do 'header-only' modules.
:(
 
What’s the difference with shipping the module and leaving the user to compile it?
 
7:28 AM
the former isn't guaranteed to work I don't think
 
I meant in source form.
 
nothing hopefully
 
There you go.
 
I meant for my sake though
not the user :v
 
I see no difference from the current scheme. You have a piece of source that only the user ends up compiling.
 
7:30 AM
bikeshed time apparently
 
I cracked my knuckles.
 
using module name; vs import name;.
 
using does too many things already.
 
wadup maggets
 
Oh I can have my 'header-only' modules thing.
neato
 
7:31 AM
@LucDanton It wants to be used apparently. :P
 
OTOH I suppose import is not reserved, whereas export is. But who’s compiling modules today anyway?
 
people working on Clang
 
Go back to cracking your knuckles.
 
module std.sequence;
export {
module std.vector;
module std.list;
module std.array;
module std.deque;
module std.forward_list;
module std.queue;
module std.stack;
}
sexy
 
^ won't happen in next few years
 
7:33 AM
> Infinite scalability
This day is not starting well
 
@Abyx well I'm reading the proposal, so yeah pretty obvious.
 
@Rapptz What do re-exported symbols look like when used?
 
meh why g++ doesn't even support C++14 when Clang already has C++1z in trunk
 
IIRC g++ does have some C++14 support.
 
@LucDanton You mean like 'including twice'?
 
7:35 AM
lol no...
 
> const A ...args
the fuck?
 
@Rapptz What you just showed us.
 
@LucDanton It doesn't say.
 
@ScottW It's PHP
 
this shit will be never deleted.
 
7:37 AM
@ScottW Because it's a Singleton. That state is trivial and there's no reason for it to be globally available or forced unique.
 
I did not realise that mr. Dos Reis is also at Texas A&M.
 
@Abyx missing instance = nullptr;
 
The next section goes over ODR and 'including twice'.
time to find out
 
@ScottW Because it forces the its users to use a singleton where they can just instantiate an object.
 
hola
 
7:38 AM
hi
 
cout is bad and wrong.
 
cout is a global variable, not a singleton
and yeah, it's bad
 
@ScottW printer().print("blah");
 
and it's still bad and wrong.
then smack him and tell him to design an API that isn't shit.
 
@ScottW Or void print_func(...) { print operations }
 
7:39 AM
then call his boss and tell him he's incompetent.
 
@ScottW No hope for him.
 
It seems that modules can't export macros.
cool
 
@Rapptz They insulate macros.
 
Oh there we go, 4.13 goes over 'including twice'
 
IIRC modules doesn't affect names.
Except for visibility.
 
7:43 AM
that was unsatisfying
but it seems like nothing bad happens
 
> Note: A module can span several module units — all of which must declare the module they belong to.
Kinda crazy.
 
Our ISP is probably getting many complaints right now. I'm imagining that they're using the 512k internet routing problem as an excuse.
 
Anyone looking for a C++14 job in Paris?
 
> We acknowledge that most build systems work on file stamps. We aim for a module
system that does not disturb that invariant. Ideally, modules should continue to
should continue to work smoothly with existing build systems. For that reason, we
have placed restrictions on where inline functions and template definitions should
be located in modules.
 
7:45 AM
badness
 
overall I think it's okay
 
better than I thought when going into it
 
@ParkYoung-Bae what? they do programing in Paris?
 
@Abyx Where did I mention programming
 
7:45 AM
So... yeah, my machine didn't shutdown yesterday.
 
@ParkYoung-Bae ah, I see
 
The active modal dialog is VS's.
I don't get it.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Your computer has reached sentience and is messing with you.
 
Why is there even a test for such a thing?
Someone spent time writing code to support that message.
Someone designed it.
 
Being helpful with long startup times?
 
7:47 AM
The modal dialog in question is "Do you want to save?"
 
Dang, it’s not the modal dialog mentioning a modal dialog then :(
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Having unsaved changes sounds like a good reason to block shutting down and losing those changes.
 
@Puppy Fine. Why the hell would you then pop-up another dialog telling me there's a dialog blocking shutdown?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Dunno.
-1
Q: Quickly set an array of four chars to zero

tomsmedingI have a variable declared as uint8_t links[4]; (aka unsigned char links[4];) in a struct that I have a pointer to, and I want to set all four bytes of that array to zero as fast as possible. I have a few options: item->links[0]=0; item->links[1]=0; item->links[2]=0; item->links[3]=0; : This is...

kill it before it breeds.
 
7:51 AM
yeah I downvoted the question and every answerer.
 
How about a union? — Joachim Pileborg 10 mins ago
GEE FUCK WHAT
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's Pileborg. You're still surprised?
 
HOW ABOUT NORMAL INITIALISATION GEE WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE — R. Martinho Fernandes 6 secs ago
Upvote the right answer, please.
 
I don't see one
the only possible answer is "Profile the outcome".
can we just close the question so people stop posting bad answers
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Can’t assign to array. The question is not about initialization.
 
7:57 AM
@LucDanton huh? it's int x[4] = {};
 
@Abyx That's not assignment.
> Status: Closed as Fixed
Wow.
 
yeah
 
Of course, not in VS2013, the product for which I reported the bug.
Oh wait, that one was actually one of the new ones introduced in VS "14".
 
Xeo
alright, my first true sickdays of the year.
 
N4047 kinda looks like module assembly more than anything else. Good module assembly mind you. Mostly it’s the rule about not messing with namespacing that concerns me. It makes sense for compatibility, but I’m worried about legacy-free code looking a bit too busy with export { namespace foo { and so on. Plus everyone and their mother will have their own way of mapping module to namespace :(
Btw it does nothing for templates. I’m not sure it can.
 
8:05 AM
> Status: Closed as Not Reproducible
Thank you for this bug report. This issue has been fixed and the fix will be available in the next major release of Visual Studio.
4
 
Xeo
lol
 
They're so good they even fix stuff they can't reproduce.
10
 
whatsup with Scott and his book draft, haven't seen an update from the rather unpolished first draft
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Awesome
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh gawd this sentence.
Can't delete!
Die.
 
8:13 AM
why does no-one else in this team understand how major-minor-patch versioning works grrrrr
 
You mean like the Visual Studio team?
 
Showed up when I searched for "bin".
Granted, this one time, it actually makes sense. ('cause "Ro*bin*")
 
oh please
don't defend a WHERE Name LIKE '%<search term>%' search
 
8:32 AM
Dear Americans, FYI this is real bacon. Yours sincerely, Cutie Pie.
 
smoked pork loin is the best thing made out of pigs (> bacon) 2.bp.blogspot.com/_LBpIE1S8aMA/TTlvenGUzmI/AAAAAAAABxU/…
 
@AlexM. Prosciutto? (Is that how you spell it?)
 
Xeo
@AlexM. nom nom
 
@Xeo can you help me with my question? stackoverflow.com/questions/25377667/…
 
@user1095108 Please do not spam members of this chat room.
 
8:38 AM
oh sorry
 
@MarkGarcia What do you mean?
 
it's so difficult, I thought only Xeo might know
7
 
@user1095108 :(
charming
 
hehehe
 
@user1095108 Was about to forgive you...
@LightnessRacesinOrbit What's with all the girls? I actually miss the old Star Trek (?) one.
 
8:41 AM
@BenjaminGruenbaum hmmm, let me search
 
@MarkGarcia They're all me
 
is prosciutto normally made from the loin?
> Prosciutto is made from either a pig's or a wild boar's ham (hind leg or thigh)
 
@MarkGarcia It's a disgrace, when I was young I thought we'd be having snacks on the moon by now
 
Xeo
@user1095108 How would that deduction work? You have a perfect example of why :: acts as a barrier - your two vector_type are exactly the same.
 
in Romanian what I linked above is called "muschi afumat" which can be translated as "smoked muscle"
I wonder whether or not only loin is used to make it
 
8:42 AM
@Xeo some trick maybe, but yeah, it's pretty hopeless
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Hm. Now that you've said that they do look quite similar.
 
Xeo
Really, just use a wrapper type
 
@Xeo you know lot's of them tricks
 
@MarkGarcia I was pouting a bit more in the cosplay
 
@Xeo this is what I was trying to avoid
 
Xeo
8:43 AM
There's no trick that would make this possible in any way
 
awwww
 
"But alias templates can't be deduced." is wrong.
 
well with clang it would be possible, but I wanted to support both gcc and clang
 
@user1095108 You need to decide what you want first.
@user1095108 No, would not.
 
@AlexM. it's quite good
 
8:44 AM
Where's the guide to answering to specific messages when you need it?
 
(smoked loin, I just like prosciutto better)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes they can't be deduced they are aliases
@Xeo the way of clang would be to use the other attribute it has
 
They work just fine in type deduction.
@user1095108 Dunno what you're on about, but nope, it doesn't work.
 
Xeo
@user1095108 It's the typename ...::... that the alias expands to, which can't be deduced.
 
You still haven't decided what you want.
using f16 = float __attribute__((vector_size(16)));
f16 x;
template <typename T, unsigned N>
void f(vector<T, N>);
// what do you want f(x) to deduce from here?
 
8:48 AM
I'd like to deduce T, N
of course
 
@user1095108 As what?
What's the expected result from that for you?
What should T be? What should N be?
 
T = float
N = 3 or 4
I am able to deduce only 4
even though I've instantiated with vector<T, 3>
 
"3 or 4" is not an unsigned.
N is an unsigned, though.
@user1095108 I haven't instantiated with vector<T, 3>. I have instantiated with f16.
 
8:52 AM
It's an unsigned!
 
Well, it can be unsigned for all I care hehehe
 
I'm hungry. Let's eat.
 
I just want to deduce 3, if I instantiated with 3
not 4
 
46 secs ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@user1095108 I haven't instantiated with vector<T, 3>. I have instantiated with f16.
There is no vector<T, 3> nor vector<T, 4> in my example.
 
8:53 AM
I think we would have a compile error then
or at least
 
The point is that not even you can decide what you want there. It's impossible as is.
 
we would have to provide T, N
 
please take this to Lounge<Derp>
 
it is possible with clang
 
Write it.
It is not possible with clang.
 
8:55 AM
What is possible with Clang?! You haven't yet stated any mechanism that can exist in our physical reality.
 
typedef float float3 __attribute__((ext_vector_type(3)));
you can use a different type for a vector with 3 components
 
The whole problem comes from vector<T, 3> and vector<T, 4> mapping to the same extended vector type
 
template <>
struct whatever_other_vector_traits_you_have_never_seen_before_in_your_life<float, 17>
{
  static constexpr auto size = 17;

  using value_type = float;
  using vector_type = value_type  __attribute__((ext_vector_type(3)));
};
 
if they would map to different types, I would be able to deduce N
 
8:57 AM
Try it with different types.
 
hehehe
 
@user1095108 No, it would not.
 
Do you agree with the close for duplicate of this question (just posted) ?
 
struct deduce
{
using value_type =
typename ::std::decay<decltype(::std::declval<T>()[0])>::type;

static constexpr auto size = sizeof(T) / sizeof(value_type);

using vector_type =
typename vector_traits<value_type, size>::vector_type;
using int_vector_type =
typename vector_traits<value_type, size>::int_vector_type;
};
 
You're missing some fundamental non-negotiable properties here: 1) the set of possible types is not closed; 2) deduction can only work if there's only one choice.
 
8:58 AM
@user1095108 lol
 
@user1095108 sizeof is not a good choice. You have a counter-example in your question.
 

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