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8:01 PM
@Ell Now, why would that be?
etc.
 
@sehe spotted
 
@Ell It was funny just like if you did. ;)
 
@Cicada That's not it though. That was just imperfection in execution
@Cicada That's not it though. That was just imperfection in execution
 
Oh, btw, they fixed the invisible character bug, both in chat and on SO.
At least the one that I was using.
Invisible character here, if you wanna try: " "
 
​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​ — Lightness Races in Orbit 6 secs ago
 
Ell
8:04 PM
mm there is some amaretto left on my pen
 
ok, coding not done, on the train & will be 6 minutes late ...
 
@Sofffia You have to meet me in real life, to appreciate an invisible character.
@Ell That makes sense
 
also forgot my sunglasses ...
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit How?
 
@Sofffia I am Lightness.
 
8:05 PM
Teach me, Master.
 
Ell
@sehe I used it to stir :)
 
I said it made sense
Ooh the challenges of enjoying a weekend camping out in the wilderness. But being 6 minutes late!
 
@Sofffia You are not ready.
 
​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​ — Sofffia 12 secs ago
I am.
 
flagging as spam
 
8:06 PM
Don't think so.
;)
Thanks for playing, though.
 
Xeo
Ui, Humble Indie Bundle 12 looks nice
AND I CAN'T BUY IT BECAUSE OF FRIGGIN PAYPAL
 
@Xeo ?
 
So attach your credit or debit card, as suggested.
 
Xeo
I don't have one
and I shouldn't need one
 
How would you pay?
 
8:13 PM
You don't have a card, at all?
 
Xeo
@Sofffia err, direct debit from my bank account?
 
@Sofffia Direct bank transfer is supported by Pypal.
it's like the only place online you can do that
so I'm not sure why Xeo is so mad
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Paypal? Or does it have something to do with Python?
 
> Pypal
 
8:14 PM
@Xeo How do you put deposits down on things? Book hotels? Rent cars?
@Sofffia oh
yes
the a is one of my magic invisible characters
 
Sure
 
thanks Xeo
pay 1 dollar, get Steam key for game I already own but not on Steam
 
omg it's the dog
 
Xeo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Dunno, I don't do that.
 
You haven't lived man
 
Xeo
8:15 PM
I can usually pay either with PayPal, or just direct debit.
 
You should really get a card if you intend to venture out into the world :/
 
Xeo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Because there's no reason it behaves the way it does right now?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit No.
 
Wait. So you use Paypal?
 
Honest advice
 
Then what do you have against Paypal?
 
8:16 PM
@Xeo Sigh. Fine.
@Sofffia It's not doing something he thinks he's entitled for it to do.
 
Ell
Is transferring money over paypal free?
 
I think that they apply taxes over what you receive.
I might be wrong.
I usually am.
 
Xeo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Listen. My bank account worked yesterday. And all the friggin times before that.
It even shows my linked bank account if I log in normally
This isn't about me being "entitled".
 
Yes, I understand; there is something buggy with your Paypal today.
Just quit getting so annoyed at it. It's your fault you have no other means to pay, and Paypal is free.
 
Xeo
47 mins ago, by Xeo
> Link a new debit or credit card to make an instant payment
Start there
 
8:18 PM
​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​ — Mysticial Mar 5 '13 at 2:59
 
Xeo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I'll admit I'm highly annoyed, not just by PayPal though. My neighbours trying to phase through my ceiling are part of it too.
 
Did you contact PayPal to report the fault?
@Xeo haha
is it you who has the supersexing neighbours
 
Xeo
34 mins ago, by Xeo
> Sorry, our Help Center is temporarily unavailable. We’re working on fixing the issue. You can use the options below to get help now, or try your search later.
 
Ell
What are the restrictions paypal has on debit cards?
I have a visa gift card you could use :p
 
Xeo
And opening hours for phone service thingy is only until 9:30pm
 
Ell
8:19 PM
I'm not sure it'd be accepted though
 
@Xeo So you have a bank account, just not a credit/debit card?
 
Xeo
it's 10:20pm now
@Sofffia yes
 
In the meantime you can apply for a debit card and join the rest of grown-up society
 
How did that happen?
When I created my bank account I automatically got a debit card and a paypal-like card.
 
That's usually how it works
 
8:20 PM
It wasn't even a choice.
Otherwise how are you going to withdraw money when the bank is closed (which is pretty much every moment of the day)?
 
He probably has a cash card that works in his bank's ATM?
 
Xeo
^
 
/cc @rightføld @Cicada @BartekBanachewicz ...
 
like a debit card for 12 year olds
 
Xeo
it's a kind-of-debit-card, that isn't accepted anywhere online, basically
A Maestro card
 
Ell
8:21 PM
> Debit cards (also known as bank cards) are accepted if they have a Visa or MasterCard logo.
 
hahah called it
 
Ell
oh. I read Maestro as MasterCard
 
@Xeo I knew it
 
user1804599
I am the mæstør.
 
Ell
@Xeo I have a temporary visa debit card with £13 on it if you want? :P
 
8:22 PM
> Maestro is a multi-national debit card service owned by MasterCard that was founded in 1992.
 
Xeo
I'll just call PayPal tomorrow and ask wtf is wrong with them
 
Maestro is a debit card, FWIW.
 
Xeo
1 min ago, by Xeo
it's a kind-of-debit-card, that isn't accepted anywhere online, basically
 
I too have a maestro card.
 
8:23 PM
But I also have a mastercard from the same bank.
 
It's equivalent to Visa Electron, i.e. a tertiary debit card service
not "a kind-of-debit-card"
anyway, get a Visa like everyone else
 
The mastercard can be easily filled via web-bank from the maestro card to the master card.
for ~~~security~~~
 
12" thin Tropicana yeahhh
@Ell hah
 
@Sofffia a what? paypal like card?
 
8:24 PM
Really Xeo, get a Visa or a MasterCard.
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I don't get it :(
 
@sehe Nevermind, it's the MasterCard.
 
as does the food site i just ordered from
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I have Visa and Mastercard. I used to have Amex but that is now accepted in fewer places than Electron.
 
@Ell I said "hah" cos u owned Xeo
@MartinJames Amex is accepted in fewer places than my cock
 
8:25 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit except those who don't
 
I have two personal Visas, a company Visa, and I'm sure there's a MasterCard around here somewhere for a backup account
@sehe exactly
@Xeo Ah, Germany. That explains it then.
 
Xeo
So basically, fuck you.
 
Don't get angry Xeo.
Then your blood pressure gets high and you feel sick.
 
@Xeo Is someone watching a show before you can get it or something? :P
 
8:27 PM
@Xeo It's just a game anyway
 
This cookie law thingy is getting out of hands.
 
food ETA 1 hour
 
Why suddenly the user needs to be interested in giving permissions to set cookies.
 
nothing "sudden" about it
 
The client can easily deactivate cookies on their own client.
It's not like I'm forcing data into their browser or whatnot.
The HTTP protocol just describes how to request the client to save data.
> Can I please ask you to ask you to please set data X to Y?
This is so stupid I can't even formulate it into words.
 
8:35 PM
General public has no idea what cookies are
that's the problem
it was all well-intentioned and even not a terrible principle
but in practice it doesn't work
 
The problems appears to be that those that make law regarding cookies don't know what cookies are.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit How?
 
go read one of the fifty websites on the issue
this isn't new
translation: 2009 called
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Can't you sum it up?
 
why should I
basically there was concern with the growth of tracking ads that people were being tracked without their knowledge, because people don't know about cookies or what they do or how to control them
the idea was to bring the issue front and centre and require the use of cookies to be opt-in
nice idea in principle, kinda
but obviously in reality you have two problems: most web services need cookies so you have no choice; and most users still don't know what cookies are and just click 'Yes' anyway
the result is a bunch of annoying notices that are displayed for next to no practical benefit
most countries don't enforce it any more
as in, they openly stated that they will not enforce it
hth
 
Ell
I hate the "If you don't believe in gay marriage then don't have one" logic!
@LightnessRacesinOrbit yeah it's really stupid
 
8:40 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It surely helped understanding your point of view.
 
Ell
it hasn't done anything
 
@Ell what
@Sofffia it's not really "my" point of view but ok
 
Ell
I don't think it's a very good argument
 
$10.000 to $120.000 is the sanction in Italy
Jesus Christ.
 
@Ell i've never heard it before
oh, right
 
8:42 PM
I think that you get a penalty that is half that if you kill someone while driving.
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit really? o.O
 
sorry IRTA as "then you don't have one"
 
@sehe Do you know what "connare" means in french
 
@Sofffia what?
for cookies?!
 
What's confusing?
 
8:43 PM
srsly
 
Yes
 
lololol
well, privacy is important
and businesses should be fined more than individual manslaughterers
 
@Cicada I think not
 
> Installing cookies without explicit user consent is sanctioned by $10.000 to $120.000.
Or something along those lines.
I'm terrible at translating.
> The installation of cookies on users' terminals without the prior consent of those involved, however, sanction the payment of a sum of ten thousand to twenty thousand euro (art. 162-bis, paragraph 2, of the Code).
^ Google translate.
I fucked up
It's $20.000, not $120.000
oh god
wait
 
8:47 PM
wtf google
 
"centoventimila" is not "twenty thousand euro".
It's "one hundred and twenty thousand euro"
I was right.
 
I could have told you that
 
8:49 PM
wat
 
@Ell I love it. And you should too, it's rather anarchist!
 
Ell
I don't really think it's anarchist
 
Can you report this thing or something?
 
Ell
What about it is anarchist?
 
@sehe It doesn't mean anything. However, it is pronounced exactly like "connard", which, interestingly means motherfucker and/or shithead.
 
Ell
8:51 PM
I think you're trolling.
 
The more you know ~
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-29569226

Sad to see so-called "security consultants" so brazenly misunderstanding the basics of how data transfer works and propagating the myth that "it's someone else's fault" when you send a naked selfie using some random unauthorised app you just blindly downloaded off the internet.

How is it Snapchat's fault if people are using non-Snapchat apps? They can try to restrict their service to their own app as much as they like but this *is* the users' fault. Education is the key, not spreading more misinformation.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit 500 pounds in Great Britain?
 
@Sofffia ?
what are you talking about
use full sentences
 
The article I'm reading says the sanction was of 500 pounds in Great Britain.
For the cookie thing we discussed less than 3 minutes ago.
Goldfish.
 
8:56 PM
wtf my pizza is here
25 mins not 60 mins
nice one
what to watch
 
Columbo
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Why not?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit You haven't lived man
 
Ell
9:07 PM
I hope the standards committee aren't considering putting graphics in the std lib still
 
Wait though
To remember that the user has said no to cookies, I'll have to use a cookie, no?
Otherwise he would get the same message over and over again.
 
Ell
NVIDIA is going to support wayland
woop
 
Kind of a long shot - Is anyone here familiar with GLPK (C language linear programming toolkit)
 
@Sofffia IIRC the cookie law only applies to the cookies identifying the user.
 
Xeo
Alright, done with Steins;Gate (+OVA) finally!
 
9:18 PM
Steins;Gate is nice.
 
@milleniumbug They distinguish between "technical cookies" (login/session cookies) and other cookies, the former just need an informational pop up ("hey i'm using cookies hth"), the latter need an opt-in request ("can i gez cookies?").
 
Xeo
@milleniumbug Love the OP to death
 
user1804599
I'd love the OP to die
 
Okay, the organizer has not bolted off without me ... also I am glad he got lost a couple of times - I am not the only one who got lost all the times. The difference is that I don't use GPS ~_~
 
meh, the movie was average
and only because it felt like a trilogy compressed into a single movie
so many things happened so fast it was kinda hard to find anything memorable in it
the scenes with the main villain took so little time I forgot how he looked like already
 
9:29 PM
Do you just assume we all know what movie you are talking about?
 
whoops
it's the new dracula
 
Ok, go on.
;)
 
@Cicada Unsure why you mention it then. Sorry to interrupt
As a general lesson to security folks interacting with reporters: "I’m not big on ethics" is a good answer to precisely zero questions.
 
@Sofffia can't even say anything else about it
I guess that just reinforces my statement that it's really not memorable
 
@Sofffia zing
 
9:40 PM
20
Q: Why is returning a reference to a function local value not a compile error?

Drew NoakesThe following code invokes undefined behaviour. int& foo() { int bar = 1234; return bar; } g++ issues a warning: warning: reference to local variable ‘bar’ returned [-Wreturn-local-addr] clang++ too: warning: reference to stack memory associated with local variable 'bar' returned...

^^ Is that the halting problem?
Compile-time determine if the reference you are returning is a local.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit snapchat promises self deletion. Also, they know they're solliciting sensitive messaging, so they ought to have made it inaccessible/hard to access. That is the problem. Snapchat is more to blame (/as much/ because they're a necessary enabling party, /more/ because they had a promise to their users and by making that promise, are actively making their users trust the app with more sensitive images than without such promises).
Of course, people shouldn't "complain" about apps accessing things that they have given it permission to.
 
@Mysticial I don't see why
@sehe I don't see how apps that are essentially clones of Snapchat for phishing purposes are Snapchat's fault
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I do. int& foo() { my_type x; return x.get_some_reference(); }
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Oh really. It seems I read the wrong headlines
 
@sehe I don't think it's decidable within the C++ compilation model but that's not the halting problem
 
I'm struggling to understand how nobody at Snapchat (or its ilk) appears to have given any thought to security. http://www.businessinsider.com/snapchat-hacked-the-snappening-2014-10
 
9:45 PM
as an aside, that example would make for a great answer
oh, someone already wrote it
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It's much more than that. Imagine that get_some_reference() does return rand()%2? some_local_ref() : some_global_ref();
 
@sehe That's still not the halting problem.
The halting problem is not "there are some things I won't know until runtime"
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Which is why I'm not sure. But I agree that's it's undecidable.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I mean, susbtitute some NP-hard problem for rand()%2
 
I like Microsoft's "new" CEO
He is energic.
 
user1804599
9:48 PM
Uniqueness types are an interesting concept but aliasing makes them terrible.
 
@sehe You can add an algorithm that "invokes the halting problem" (to coin a phrase), but that does not mean that returning a reference to a local variable is undecidable due to the halting problem.
disclaimer: I'm mostly guessing here
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Of course?
 
I claim no authority in this domain
@Sofffia idiots
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It is, if the localness of that reference depends on the outcome of that algorithm.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Why
Please tell me why I'm an idiot.
 
9:49 PM
Well, it was never very secure and less so by the year
 
I'll read it when I'll come back.
 
@sehe If the only way to decide is to actually run it, then that's the halting problem right?
 
@Mysticial worse, even running it may not decide it (who says it will complete); I think the compiler could do some pretty solid static analysis, allowing for a few false positives IMO
 
return does_this_program_halt("source.cpp") ? lol : wat;
 
@sehe Right. And of course the function call could be an infinite loop in which case, it doesn't return at all.
 
9:52 PM
@Sofffia Read the article.
 
@Sofffia inb4 you never come back because a swat team breaks down the front door because of your piracy acts
 
@Mysticial Yeah but you can't then claim that every aspect of that program is responsible for it invoking the halting problem
the algorithm that doesn't ever end is responsible
whether you called it in a function by returning a reference to its result from a local object is totally irrelevant
 
"Snapchat does not publish its API for third-party devs, but it has been reverse-engineered"- what? No API auth? http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/10/snapchat-images-stolen-from-third-party-web-app-using-hacked-api/
 
> They can try to restrict their service to their own app as much as they like but this is the users' fault.
i.e. I addressed this already
it's high time users started taking responsibility for their own stupid choices
 
Ok. That's a confirmation then: I've been reading the wrong headlines
 
9:55 PM
what headlines
 
I'm already chuckling.
In advance
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I just copied them
 
@sehe Well I'm not sure why you pinged me on the comic sans image either...
 
@Cicada Ah. I sorta kinda remembered you joining on the crucify-comic-sans rants. Sry if I misremembered
 
9:58 PM
@sehe you must have been reading the wrong headlines!
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I should have said "I linked to them"
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Now, take this "strong" language. Seems all tough and careful, right:
> Snapchatters were victimized by their use of third-party apps to send and receive Snaps, a practice that we expressly prohibit in our Terms of Service precisely because they compromise our users’ security.”
 

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