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2:00 PM
@CatPlusPlus For one thing, it's pretty fuckin' slow. And don't do that ~~performance~~ shit, because Bartek was asking about doing some 3D stuff and if you're disposing a bunch of objects each frame, the performance does matter.
and secondly, there's no way to differentiate between a non-owning reference to an IDisposable and an owning one, so if you did that, you could never non-owningly refer to an IDisposable.
 
@DeadMG It's not.
 
@DeadMG and that's what was killing my Javascript WebGL game
 
RAII was about an object owning resources, not an object being owned. RAII is not there to hold your hand as you start throwing points out everywhere
 
It's not slow.
 
C# has static reflection.
 
2:00 PM
Also why would you be disposing things each frame?
That's ~~perfrormance-killing~~ in C++ too.
 
@CatPlusPlus maybe not each frame, but pretty regularly
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ok. Well, I'mma be entirely fair and say that I did not know that.
but my second point is still valid- if you simply iterate over and dispose of all IDisposable members, you can't then have non-owning references to IDisposable types.
 
@BartekBanachewicz It is easy to craft some crazy-example-from-hell where it becomes a painful as heck. In practice, it's not really a problem. A bit of a nuissance, but that's what you get for having GC and reference semantics.
 
Sure you can.
Make an attribute.
Dispose only members without the attribute.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I guess I could preallocate the buffer and just keep it in memory.
 
2:02 PM
@JBL I already downvoted it.#
 
It's that implicit conversions shit all over again. LALALA IT'S A HUGE PROBLEM despite that if you actually use the fucking language then you see it's not.
 
So really, once was more than enough.
 
Fuck this.
Urgh.
I hate you all.
And programming.
 
JBL
@DeadMG Oh I'd like to know why (couldn't really think of a problem with it...)
 
I need a drink.
 
JBL
2:03 PM
Apart from maybe "Too localized"
 
@JBL Because you dumped it here.
 
JBL
Oh okay.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't remember if I linked you that IoC container thing or not docs.castleproject.org/Windsor.MainPage.ashx
 
JBL
I'll remember that.
 
@DeadMG FWIW, it would be a bit annoying to write it.
 
2:05 PM
@CatPlusPlus looks awfully complicated for a beginner
 
@BartekBanachewicz Just write some C# for a while.
 
I think that's the best option
 
I wonder when the fuck will Roslyn be out.
 
You create a container, let it know which classes it should be aware of, and then explicitly create/release only roots of object graphs.
 
I have a list of C# compiler extensions to write.
 
2:06 PM
anyways, my personal causes for not using C# revolve around the weakness of generics and the crappiness of the value/reference type divide, rather than destruction
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes what's that?
 
but I also think that the destruction aspect is very weak
 
@DeadMG we talked about that today too. Well, I've asked about Concepts.
 
@BartekBanachewicz C# compiler exposed as a C# API.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes who's making that? Also will it be like Terra saveobj?
 
2:06 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Neat.
 
Microsoft.
@BartekBanachewicz No idea what that is. The API will expose all the compiler pipelines bits from lexing to parsing to code generation.
 
Though you could use Mono now I guess.
Probably not as neat.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes saveobj saves the compiled Terra binary to disk, but from you wrote I conclude Roslyn will be at least that potent
@CatPlusPlus are there any real practical problems with Mono?
 
No WPF/partial WCF.
 
2:09 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I thought for sure that .net already exposed a C# compiler as part of the runtime library
 
@BartekBanachewicz Lack of WPF is always my first thought.
 
@cHao It does, but all you can say is "Please compile this string".
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's out as CTP
 
@cHao It's a "compile this string" API.
 
@DeadMG hm, it's still nice.
So can you, say, receive C# code over the wire, compile it and run?
 
2:10 PM
yep
 
There's System.Reflection.Emit.
 
@BartekBanachewicz There are at least two other code generation APIs inthe framework.
 
(Pretty much what my Contrlua does)
 
They are both better IIAM.
 
Which is a better way to dynamically create executable code.
 
2:10 PM
that's impressive.
 
No, it's definitely better.
 
@CatPlusPlus If you can write what you want with it, System.Linq.Expressions is easier to work with (high-level).
 
Caveat is that it's assembly-level emitter.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I know. But the CTP doesn't include the code generation parts yet.
 
Yeah Expression is nice.
 
2:11 PM
So I can't use it all for my purposes.
 
btw I wonder about Mono-llvm
is that thing usable?
I know I am going to edge cases but that's just curiosity
 
All my ideas involve requesting an AST (potentially broken due to unsupported syntax, though broken ASTs are supported by the API because it also targets code editing environments), and then manipulating it somehow, and requesting code from the new AST.
 
In computer science, an abstract syntax tree (AST), or just syntax tree, is a tree representation of the abstract syntactic structure of source code written in a programming language. Each node of the tree denotes a construct occurring in the source code. The syntax is 'abstract' in not representing every detail appearing in the real syntax. For instance, grouping parentheses are implicit in the tree structure, and a syntactic construct like an if-condition-then expression may be denoted by means of a single node with two branches. This distinguishes abstract syntax trees from concrete ...
this "AST"?
 
Yes, that's an AST.
 
@BartekBanachewicz What is that? AFAIK Mono uses the LLVM by default since some time ago.
 
2:13 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes woohoo
so I can, without any problems, compile C# code to, say, C binary, and then use from Terra/C/C++?
 
Erm, no?
It uses the LLVM to JIT code.
 
crap.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I was thinking AOT
 
You cannot embed C# without a semblance of a CLR.
 
At which point you just embed Mono.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes mono-project.com/AOT
@R.MartinhoFernandes crap.
that's much less nice.
 
2:15 PM
@BartekBanachewicz That's pretty much just JITting beforehand and then using cached JITted code at runtime.
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's more of NGen-like thing.
Not something you want to distribute (because it's not complete anyway).
 
Not often useful.
 
too bad.
 
It's really not that important.
 
I thought that maybe one could compile C# similarly to C++, just maybe linking some libraries.
@CatPlusPlus I figure
 
2:16 PM
I think the primary use case is environments where runtime code generation is not allowed (iOS?).
 
like an iOS, yup, exactly
 
user142019
Runtime code-generation is allowed on iOS.
 
user142019
It's just not allowed to call such code.
 
Apple still good at computers.
 
So summing it up, C# is situated in the middle ground. It has harder destruction (like script languages), but still offers type safety and is optimized for "normal" coding. Though it can be precompiled/JITtted, running it still requires the VM and thus is questionable for embedded.
that's my view ATM.
 
2:20 PM
Well, you can always use Haskell.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Most languages need a runtime.
 
user142019
Also you don't want to run a JIT-compiler on a phone since it will be either slow as a dog or drain your battery.
 
C++ requires a runtime too.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes but the size of, say Lua one is negligible compared to C#
 
And C.
@BartekBanachewicz Minimal Mono build is below 5MB.
AFAIR
 
2:21 PM
Javascript is also poplular on phones
 
@Potatoswatter blurght
 
@BartekBanachewicz What is big in C# is the BCL, not the CLR per se.
For embedding, you don't need to lug the entire library, I guess.
 
(I'm logged in on my ipad now :) )
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes mhm
 
mscorlib.dll and System.Core.dll would suffice.
 
2:22 PM
@CatPlusPlus C++ requires a runtime?
 
@MartinJames Yes.
 
Anyway, i wouldn't use C# for game development.
 
Well, I would.
 
Perhaps I see more and more use for it, but Hybrid (Native + Script) imho still wins
 
Hell, I did. Unity uses C#.
 
2:22 PM
anyone knows how to move the cursor to certain position in xcode?
 
@CatPlusPlus Strange. My embedded C++ is run from flash and, till it's fully running, has no file system to load any runtime from.
 
user142019
@MartinJames How are you going to throw an exception or do a dynamic cast without?
 
@rightfold Certain features of C++ require runtime.
 
eh, slow day.
 
@Griwes Conclusion: C++ needs a runtime.
 
2:24 PM
You can easily use C++ without exceptions and RTTI without runtime.
 
user142019
@Griwes That's what I'm implying.
 
@MartinJames And you can embed the runtime in your application!
 
It's just the hybrid approach uses both approaches where they are strong, but accepts the flaws they have and by complementing itself hides them.
 
Hmm the chat works great on mobile but no way to click the reply arrow
 
user142019
FYI, "Certain features of C++" is a subset of "C++".
 
2:24 PM
@Griwes So can you for pretty much every language.
 
And by the rule of "language always has some flaws", two languages can have no or minimal flaws :)
 
@rightfold C++ is a subset of C++
 
If you have ~performance~ code you can write it in C++ and plug it into the rest written in C#.
 
Griwes don't forget malloc
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Now that message is probably clearer.
 
user142019
2:25 PM
@BoltClock Terribleness is a superset of C++.
 
@Potatoswatter You can embed malloc in your executable.
 
C++ is a much worse language than C# anyway.
 
@CatPlusPlus it then doesn't have to be C#, it can be something more dynamic for easier extending by, say, community
 
Nobody should use C++, unless they want to feel like death all the time.
 
@Potatoswatter All you need is sbrk or something similar.
 
user142019
2:25 PM
I'd use D.
 
Well, that's the point of CLR.
 
@CatPlusPlus perhaps it is. I was thinking, for example, Lua and Haskell or Lua and Terra
 
And the correct i/o xfaces for the whole os
 
You can use whatever language you want for extensions and stuff
 
@CatPlusPlus "Whatever language? C++." ~ me
 
2:26 PM
Haskell can be easily scripted with Haskell.
And Haskellers would probably be much more happy to do that.
 
Including sbrk
 
@CatPlusPlus well HsLua is rather welcoming towards Lua and its features. I know I know you don't give a damn about Lua, just an example.
 
brk -> bork?
 
@TonyTheLion sbrk()
 
Urgh C
 
2:27 PM
Seems it's break.
@TonyTheLion Nope, POSIX.
 
It's POSIX. Don't expect the name to make sense.
 
@TonyTheLion or the alternative is to use C? :D
 
Althought that's pretty much the same.
 
@TonyTheLion It changes the system break.
 
But you still need something like sbrk.
 
2:28 PM
Hang on, we've been here before. You lot think of the runtime as the ctl, libs etc. linked in at build time. I do not. 'Runtime' code to me is .dll, .lib etc.
 
Yes, that makes no sense.
 
Plus, @TonyTheLion, you've probably used it more times you realize.
 
> change data segment size
 
Ah, minimal Mono is about 3MB.
 
I.e. every time you request memory from OS in on *nix.
@TonyTheLion That's legacy description.
In 286 land, it DID change data segment size.
 
2:29 PM
@Griwes I don't use *nix. I use Windose
 
@MartinJames Runtime is whatever code is necessary for language support.
 
@CatPlusPlus Wow. mscorlib.dll in .NET is 5MB.
 
@TonyTheLion Bleh.
 
user142019
If you use mmap for implementing malloc, do you still need sbrk?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's from their wiki though, might be inaccurate. It's not a very good wiki.
I'll compile it later and see.
 
2:29 PM
what language is mono written in?
 
@TonyTheLion I guess VirtualAlloc() is the windows equivallent.
 
@BartekBanachewicz C++ and C#.
 
It might've been called differently, not sure about that one.
 
user142019
C++?
 
2:30 PM
@CatPlusPlus And for some reason the 64-bit version is smaller.
 
user142019
I thought Mono was written in C.
 
5
Q: Why won't template parameter pack be deduced to multiple type arguments in operator<<?

boycyI have a class templated on a type parameter and parameter pack, and am confused about type-deduction of this type; while writing an output-streaming operator I discovered a parameter pack on operator<< will not match both the type and pack parameters for the template class: #include <iostream> ...

 
@TonyTheLion It has slightly different semantics, since sbrk has semantics defined in terms of segmentation, which no-one uses nowadays, but meh.
 
user142019
At least, the source code has a shitload of .c files.
 
@rightfold I remember seeing some project using .c for C++ once.
 
2:31 PM
Yeah I think the VM is in C.
 
It was horrible.
 
@Griwes .C.
Case makes difference.
 
System.dll is 3MB and System.Core.dll is 1MB. They are both optional though and not really required, but most programmers will like having them (System.Core has all the LINQ bits, for example).
 
No, I came across project using .c for C++ once.
 
So that makes a minimally usable .NET build >9MB (those were just libraries; there's a lot of stuff in mscorlib that merely calls into the CLR itself).
 
2:32 PM
Can't tell what it was, though.
 
Well that's even older.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes considering that terra needs LLVM for full functionality, it isn't really that much
 
System.dll has too much, though.
It can be stripped down a lot.
 
@BoltClock you did not happen to do that ... or did you?
:'(
but it is meta
 
Actually, even mscorlib.dll has too much.
They actually took chunks out for things like Silverlight.
So I guess it's feasible to get a minimal Mono build under that mark.
 
user142019
2:34 PM
I wipe my ass with 9 MB.
 
user142019
Time to get out of bed. Bye.
 
@rightfold I give up. I can't think of any storage medium that would be comfortable enough to use for that purpose. Well, other than actual paper, but that would take an inordinate amount to store 9 MB.
 
lol
What are you guys talking about anyways?
 
Shit.
Exam time.
 
@TonyTheLion C#
 
2:37 PM
oh yea, programming, I don't care about that anyways
 
@CatPlusPlus break a leg
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's a painful thing to do.
 
@TonyTheLion Not if you anesthetise yourself first.
 
> New feature on our website
 
hahaha
 
2:38 PM
> You can now reset your password
Well done, Synergy. Well done.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Erm.
 
heh
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Impressive?
 
in fact, this warrants a screenshot
 
2:39 PM
changing to user needs, huh?
um wat
Google Groups just showed me "New version of application is required. Please reload the page"
 
What is Synergy?
 
And now you can reset the password!
 
2:43 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh, BTW, Happy Birthday! Have a good one tonite:)
 
vim experts: anyway to move cursor to character # 124 in a file?
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 sure
@Telkitty猫咪咪 down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right
@Telkitty猫咪咪 hope that helps
 
to line #124 is :124
 
plonk all the telkitties
 
2:44 PM
@DeadMG stfu
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit wait... since when did you need to log in for that?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit this
 
@thecoshman You don't. They're talking about a login on their website.
 
man
I took a break from my diet, but I still lost weight.
 
@DeadMG u gon die
 
@DeadMG logical conclusion... stop dieting, lose weight
 
2:45 PM
@MartinJames What? My birthday was two months ago.
Thanks?
 
@LucDanton like you aren't?
 
well
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 123l?
 
obviously I didn't take enough of a break
 
2:46 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh - OK, maybe I screwed up :(
 
but there's not enough tasty things around here to eat which I'm safe to eat.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes how's the journal going?
@DeadMG you on some sort of super restrictive diet? I thought you where just trying to loose weight diet.
 
@thecoshman The super-restrictive diet is just for kicks (as in, not having horrific stomach pains at least some of the time).
the other diet is for losing weight.
 
@DeadMG is super restrictive just 'only having the one half a chicken for the afternoon snack'?
 
2:50 PM
no
 
Hmm, Bash is driving me blind again … is there a more straightforward way of doing the following?
 
it means, "Don't eat anything that gives stomach pain", which is lots of things.
 
  while read report; do
      # some processing
  done < <(grep expr filename)
 
> In software, find first set (ffs)
I laughed.
@KonradRudolph not using Bash is a nice first step
 
also, I don't eat chicken anyway
it's disgusting
 
2:51 PM
@DeadMG depends on how made
 
@BartekBanachewicz sorry matey, no can do
 
@BartekBanachewicz not really
 
@BartekBanachewicz Nope. All chicken is awful.
 
I had the best roast chicken yesterday
 
I just ate five jam doughnuts. The stupid dog kept trying to get at them, he's now covered in sugar and tying himself into knots in an attempt to lick it all up :)
 
2:51 PM
It was perfect, though I say so myself
 
@KonradRudolph my usual route when I don't want to use X but it's the only option is to "check whether there are any languages that compile to X"
 
@MartinJames So the dog got lots of sugar on himself from all the doughnuts... and you proceeded to eat them all anyway?
 
Are there languages that compile to bash? :)
 
@shazow nothing compiles to bash though
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I see no reason using Bash over Python
 
2:52 PM
@BartekBanachewicz No.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I’m asking for a more idiomatic Bash construct, is all
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Sure - the doughnuts would be very bad for him, so I had to eat them.
 
@MartinJames But they had been contaminated by that point...
@BartekBanachewicz haha JUST KIDDING! Check this out! Lino compiles to Bash
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Heh! No. The sugar dropped on him from the doughnuts as I ate them, just out of his reach.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit lol wat
 
2:54 PM
@DeadMG Good. More left for us.
 
@TonyTheLion Is this like, a real screenshot?
 
@BoltClock Not sure
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit oxymoron. Roast chicken is inherently 'ok' at best
 
@MartinJames Aha!
@thecoshman Oh what fun it must be to ride in a one-horse messed up brain such as yours
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit 'On Linux compiles to bash shell script' - only in Glasgow could such an abomination be imagined.
 

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