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11:00 AM
ok so
 
user142019
Meh.
 
user142019
Too busy right now.
 
@Mikhail Is there any guarantee on the alignment of the source and destination?
 
it's kinda sad that user-defined literals can't work with 'ABCD'
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes: you said that having all the Unicode functionality in potentially-lazily-evaluated iterator pairs was bad?
 
11:01 AM
@DeadMG I did?
 
dunno, that's why I'm checking
 
Most ranges in ogonek are lazily evaluated.
 
@Mysticial I was about to ask him if he did use something like __declspec( align( 16 )) to make sure stuff is aligned :)
 
yeah, but you ditched iterators
whereas I would be still in iterator pairs
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit stop editing my answers, I like having "noise" in them!
 
11:02 AM
Oh, I might have said that it's fucking annoying to implement it with iterators, yes.
 
hmm
I might get away with it anyway, with the argument that we have little other choice until ranges come
 
You could provide eager algorithms that take output iterators, as the STL.
 
@Mysticial yes, source is aligned to an 8 byte boundary... I could probably do the same for the destination
 
I did have that in the previous version of the paper
 
11:04 AM
@Mikhail That's not good enough. Is 16-bytes possible?
 
one of the reasons I was thinking about getting rid of that is that the iterator information isn't composed
like if you have hash(normalize(validate(begin, end))), then hash knows that validation has already occurred.
 
You could assume it and UB otherwise.
 
or, more relevantly, normalization.
 
@Mysticial yes, I think that should work. The device requires a 8 bytes boundary, so 16 should be doable?
 
11:05 AM
@DeadMG Oh for optimisation.
 
the other algorithms do assume validation or UB, I meant to say normalization.
yes
 
@Mikhail Neat. Are there any guarantees that W*H is a multiple of 8?
 
the validating_iterator does have UB as a potential policy.
 
I am currently rolling out changes to enable that kind of optimisation.
 
yeah
 
11:06 AM
If you can guarantee that:
1. `source` is aligned to 16 bytes.
2. `destination` is aligned to 16 bytes.
3. `W*H` is a multiple of 8.
Then it will make things easy.
 
and I'm also refactoring encoded_string into the aptly named defacto_string, which should be more in line with what the LEWG wanted
 
@Mysticial actually there is
@Mysticial Yeah, that should be doable, both W and H are divisble by 8
 
it's more like the original version of my proposal which didn't even have an allocator parameter through template.
 
And stuff like graphemes(not_statically_known_wellformed) fails compilation.
 
@Mikhail Awesome.
 
11:07 AM
by the way
 
If a tree fails in the forest, will there be an exception log?
 
case insensitivity- I asked you about this before, previously I only had a case-insensitive < , is there no case-insensitive hash or == or somesuch?
 
@MartinJames What sound does an angry tree make? ¡ʞɹɐq
 
@DeadMG I'd say either you expose casefolding and then users do casefolded(a) == casefolded(b) and hash(casefolded(a)), or provide the case-insensitive ops directly. I prefer the latter, keeping casefolding only as an API for advanced users.
 
I love documenting UB
"otherwise, the behaviour is undefined" in documentation for my functions makes me smile
 
11:10 AM
Obviously you cannot do that easily with op==.
 
so I could be like, casefold_hash(...), casefold_equal(...), casefold_less(...).
@R.MartinhoFernandes No operators, just freestanding algorithms.
 
Yeah.
But case-insentitive is a clearer name IMO.
 
fair enough
 
Most programmers have no fucking idea casefolding even exists.
 
might make it a namespace, that should be sufficient.
 
11:12 AM
@MartinJames It'll leave a stack
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I prefer to document preconditions and any violation is implicitly UB.
 
@Mikhail Left an answer. Let me know if it performs any better and whether it breaks.
 
@DeadMG Don't forget to provide function objects for those, for maps and such.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't currently intend on it.
 
11:14 AM
Why not?
 
because
frankly, I'm not really certain what the LEWG wants from me
 
but I'd rather let the user write a convenience wrapper than have the LEWG reject it because it was too convenient like the previous draft.
 
@DeadMG they probably don't really know themselves either. There's a reason C++11 got such crappy Unicode support
The committee just lacks people who know their Unicode :)
 
Folks, Is there a command to malloc 16bit aligned memory in VS? I'm doing something really bad with a for loop and I feel dirty
 
11:16 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes but but but
 
Well, case-insentive keys is a use case I want to support. I really don't see a reason to not make it easy.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's fun to pretend to be 14882!
 
@DeadMG that sounds like the right approach. provide the right basic tools to begin with, then people will have to build on top of that
 
@jalf Well, it was a big shock to me to have people who suggested that having a string type that can handle encodings type-safely and such and handle the needs of most users was a terrible idea.
and who advocated a solution forcing people to upgrade their code
but that's just me
 
@DeadMG I hope they're not in the majority, at least? :)
 
11:17 AM
WTF is up with Kaspersky? It continually moans that its databases are out of date, but the last update was successful, one hour ago. It's been doing this shit for three days, now.
 
@DeadMG So what is the current consensus wrt. Unicode and strings?
 
@jalf Well, they were the majority of the people who were in attendance.
 
@jalf From what I understood, they want the string to support only one implementation-defined encoding. I guess that's fine too, but I personally think compiler validating any conversion is neater.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh right, like... well, most other languages do it
 
@jalf They want the Unicode algorithms, and they're not tooo happy with a new string type, but if it's going to be a new string type, then it would have to be only one string type forcing everyone to use the one encoding.
instead of maintaining the existing use cases where everyone uses different encodings in lots of different places
 
11:20 AM
@jalf Except they don't have tons of legacy code where each component picks their own, or whatnot.
 
pretty much that.
 
@jalf Most other languages do it from the beginning (and of those many still do it wrong, but sigh).
 
yeah I know :)
 
ah, yes
the second thing is
regexes, I completely did not check if there was any possible basic_regex traits that would support Unicode.
I have no idea about their interface
but it may be that there would have to be a unicode_regex separately
 
The interface for traits is code unit oriented.
 
11:21 AM
ok
so IOW, there would have to be unicode_regex as a separate piece to basic_regex
 
user1357851
I have signed up for half marathon next month, now there's the Boston marathon bombing. Should I still be jogging: yay? nay?
 
So fat chance unless you go basic_regex<char32_t>, basically.
Anything else is a lost cause.
 
that was the original intention, I think
basic_regex<char32_t, implementation-defined-traits>.
 
Xeo
C++ is fucked up library wise. And language wise. C++ is fucked up.
 
Don't forget the tooling and the community.
 
11:24 AM
pretty much that
 
Xeo
Those are results. If the language wasn't so fucked up, tooling wouldn't be, no?
 
I'm due in Library this afternoon
but maybe tomorrow the LEWG will find a gap for the next revision
 
@Xeo And wise :)
 
@Xeo Arguable.
E.g. libclang tools are starting to spring up. What if that started many years ago?
 
I agree that half the problem is that there were no usable free tools
 
11:29 AM
@Mikhail How was the cubist tree grounded? ¡sʇooɹ ǝɹɐnbs ƃuısn
2
 
Well its getting late, i'm going to make like a tree and leave
 
.... it's not autumn yet
 
@Xeo I just thought of something. If you had a tool that could rewrite every deducing lambda expresstion to [/**/](/**/) -> auto..., how would you feel about introducing a breaking change into the language regarding deduction?
 
Xeo
@LucDanton Guess Clang could do that
 
@Xeo I blame the community.
 
11:35 AM
@Mikhail It's already daylight outside.
I'm gonna sleep too. :)
 
@Xeo I'm more interested in the hypothetical than the practical here.
(Or anywhere, really.)
 
@DeadMG I blame the community.
IMO the C++ community has always had very low standards.
Kinda noticeable if you browsed std-proposals a bit.
 
Xeo
@LucDanton Well, I personally would be fine, but I don't think C++ would be :/
 
Aaarrgghhh! Pending Firefox update was screwing my Kaspersky update. Fuck Firefox, fuck Kaspersky, fuck Adobe, fuck Oracle. Is it remotely possible that I can get a day's work done without updates screwing up my box!
 
Xeo
Mostly because your code needs to be parsed under Clang first
and Clang parses stuff differently than MSVC, for example
 
11:39 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Admittedly, it's a lot harder to make a decent free tool for C++ than Java.
 
Xeo
For some things atleast, I think
 
It's even harder if you don't.
 
New in 2014: the language upgrade bundle! Free source upgrade tool with every new copy of the language!
Protip for language designers: make versioning first class.
 
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!
 
Xeo
Btw @DeadMG, was there any talk about breaking C and C++ compatibility on Monday?
 
11:40 AM
"The language changed? I'll just feed my same source code to the new compiler and blame the designers if something goes bad" <- why?
 
no
 
@Xeo What kind of breakage?
 
the C and C++ compatibility talk is on Friday, I think
yup
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ditching compatibility
 
@Xeo Ditching what?
 
11:41 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Basically, the Committee has finally woken up and noticed that you can't go around including C headers anymore, since the whole C99/C11 thing, and that it's kinda crippling C to be compatible, and questions whether they really need C compatibility anymore.
 
"Should developers join the testers and run the test-plans before release ?" You have 4 hours.
 
@DeadMG oof. I think they do need it. Don't underestimate how many C libraries people depend on
 
Breaking C compatibility in existing behaviour is breaking C++ compatibility. And they never cared when adding new stuff.
 
I think you misunderstand
we don't have C compatibility and never did; it's only C89 compatibility.
 
user142019
C headers would need #ifdef __cplusplus or C++ would need C11 compatibility.
 
11:44 AM
So what's there to break?
 
@DeadMG and even that is not complete compatibility, I know that :)
 
user142019
@R.MartinhoFernandes If I use _Alignas in a C header…
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes First thing that comes to mind is 'fusing' the two as pop() -> optional<reference>. That's quite un-C++-like though, and seems like a step backwards in terms of guarantees/seqeuence power.
 
@Zoidberg That's broken already.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Talking about how the C++ Standard library keeps updating itself to refer to the newer C library and that kind of thing.
 
11:44 AM
and yet the breakage is kept small enough that most C libraries can be used from C++. Personally I think that might be important :)
 
and whether or not they want to make an effort to be compatible with the newer C Standards.
I said on isocpp that not being compatible is hurting C a lot more than C++
 
Then it's not about breaking anything. It's about not adding more compatibility.
 
arguably, it's a policy break, since the previous objective was always to be as compatible as possible with C.
 
user1357851
Since C++ is median level, it would be cool if someone write a high level library for low level device control (utilizing c compatibility)
 
whereas here, we'd be talking about no longer having the explicit goal of being compatible with C.
 
11:46 AM
Is it just about whether they should keep the status quo or promote the status quo to de jure?
 
my understanding of de jure is insufficient to parse that question
 
In writing.
Official.
 
ah
no
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Have you considered reading one step ahead (do as the istream_iterator does, so to speak)?
lol
 
@LucDanton Yes, that's what I am talking about when I mention adding more state.
 
11:47 AM
it's about the fact that they are not achieving C compatibility, and they need to either drop that idea in the first place, or do something fairly major to achieve it
and whether or not the Committee even has the desire to be C compatible anymore
 
@LucDanton And is also what I already do in the encoding_ dual of that.
 
it's about what direction the Committee wants to aim for.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh. I thought you were talking about caching.
 
@LucDanton I don't see a big difference between the two.
 
Do you feel like hiding a bit in code_unit is bad?
 
11:49 AM
It didn't even cross my mind.
 
What's the additional state then?
 
I'm going to go and get some lunch now
see you all in LWG
 
IIRC std::istream_iterator has no superfluous crud (it's exactly the crud it needs, and nothing more har har).
 
@LucDanton A bool and a code point.
 
What's encoded in the bool?
 
11:51 AM
@LucDanton Yeah, that's how .NET behaves. Or maybe Java. I know they both fuse two ops in one, but they fuse different ones.
@LucDanton Whether the final code point was poped.
 
@jalf yeah like all of Win32
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh. Can't check the sequence for that?
 
@LucDanton No, because the sequence is always one ahead.
 
istream_iterator delegates to querying the istream.
 
When the sequence is empty, you still have one code point left to pop.
 
11:53 AM
Oh right. It gets away by using the state of istream* or equivalent.
seq::have_you_been_empty(s)
 
(Though yes, I could keep the bit in the code point, since I have 11 free ;)
magic_tuple<bool, char32_t>
Or magic_optional<char32_t>.
 
Tbh I don't think I can answer your original question: all I see is how to use the sequence interface as specified. I cannot think of a change that makes the situation more convenient here, without e.g. storing information that is superfluous for everything else<
It's kinda like interspersing no?
 
Yeah. I thought so too, but I wanted external confirmation.
At least the extra state isn't painful here, i.e., it does not go into a useless end iterator.
 
Interspersing dirty trick is to add a dummy value at the end.
That amounts to seq::have_you_been_empty(s) I think.
 
Interspersing is rtl::round_robin(r, rtl::repeat(r.length()-1, separator)), haha
rtl::radial look quite useless, but round_robin does appear to have some utility.
 
11:58 AM
So you 'decorate' your input sequence via round_robin. 'Decorate' your input to provide some have_you_been_empty equivalent? :)
(That sounds like in-band/out-of-band trouble though :/)
 

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