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5:01 PM
Yay, a whole screen of green builds.
> Total: 385 builds
Successful: 153 builds
Failed: 216 builds
Success ratio: 41%
We kinda suck.
(To be fair, most failures are due to differing warning sensitivity between VS and GCC)
 
I gotta lose some weight again befroe Xmas - I have back-poins.
 
@Pawnguy7 I don't see a need for a hyphen in this case.
 
Isn't is a single adjective though?
E.g. "X movie is a genre."
 
@JerryCoffin Awesome answer to bad question
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's totally not my fault I promise.
@ThePhD Don't need it on Windows.
 
user3010322
5:08 PM
@DeadMG What do you mean "Don't need it" ?
 
user3010322
It's totally necessary. D:
 
well, I mean that AFAIK, LLVM builds with RTTI on by default on Windows.
 
@DeadMG Oh don't worry, twas me. I fixed already.
 
user3010322
@DeadMG I don't think that's the case at all?
 
well I certainly never turned RTTI on explicitly, but I never had a problem with them not having RTTI.
 
Ell
5:09 PM
> It is not a File class responsibility to open, read or save files.
 
Thanks--not sure if the OP will find it helpful, but when I saw:
What you want is really:

cin>>x_top;
cin>>y_top;
cin>>x_bot;
cin>>y_bot;
Poin TopLeft(x_top, y_top);
Poin BottomRight(x_bot, y_bot);

My immediate reaction was: "that's sure not what *I* want!"
 
@JerryCoffin Oh ew
 
Indeed
 
user3010322
@DeadMG I dunno, looks pretty in-need of RTTI?:
 
user3010322
 
5:12 PM
@Dead did you push that fix already?
 
user3010322
Also CMake won't let me select the CTP as a compiler option. ;~;
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yep.
 
@Ell Meh. Maybe the File class responsibility is just to close files?
 
I just built LLVM for the 2nd time (@ThePhD)
 
@ThePhD Just build for 2012 and change the toolset.
@ThePhD Maybe VS just doesn't have a problem linking RTTI-enabled code to RTTI-disabled.
 
user3010322
5:13 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Rub it in more. >.>
 
This question suddenly made me realize that when you get down to it, the real "C with Classes" is Java. Although it doesn't try to be backward compatible with C like C++ does, Java code really is a lot like C, but with classes (all too many of them, usually) added.
 
$ free -h
             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
Mem:           15G        15G       387M         0B        10M        11G
-/+ buffers/cache:       3,7G        11G
Swap:          15G        36M        15G
$
@DeadMG Hmm, still doesn't find it.
 
just the codegen headers, not the others?
 
ClangTU.cpp:22:35: fatal error: CodeGen/CodeGenModule.h: No such file or directory
 #include <CodeGen/CodeGenModule.h>
                                   ^
compilation terminated.
Yep.
There's a Codegen folder but it doesn't have CodeGenModule.h in it.
 
Codegen is my codegen lib.
CodeGen is Clang's codegen lib.
 
5:17 PM
Where are those?
 
have a look at --llvm-path/tools/clang/lib.
 
@DeadMG That has header?
 
Xeo
@DeadMG That doesn't sound like something Windows would particularly like.
 
should have CodeGen/CodeGenModule.h
 
Wait, when you build LLVM, do you build it in the root folder of the working copy?
 
5:19 PM
@JerryCoffin C, with classes, and a garbage collector, and an insane per-object locking scheme designed to fix some problem that did not exist and just causes confusion and errors. Fuck java.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes llvm-path should point to that.
 
I don't; I don't like dirtying that up.
I make a build dir, and ../configure from there.
 
It should build in /build by default.
 
Yes, but it doesn't copy internal headers there.
 
I know.
 
5:21 PM
I need to put them myself.
 
the Wide premake refers to --llvm-path/tools/clang, and --llvm-path/build for the libraries and some headers.
 
you shouldn't need to move any headers.
 
So llvm-path should not point to the build folder. Fixing.
 
'some troubles using PointCloud<PointT> with pointers' - should that not be poiners?
 
5:22 PM
@MartinJames Believe me--that wasn't intended as a compliment toward Java!
 
@JerryCoffin Heh - I never thought it was:)
Java does seem to be fairly easy to understand. I've got a bronze java badge despite never having written a single line of java ever.
 
@MartinJames Locking is fine, if you're not stupid and try to do synchronize (this) vOv
I've learned Java in an hour, doing first assignment for first Java class
 
Ell
it's good that it's quick to learn right?
 
@CatPlusPlus Exactly. It has a class for everything else, so why not an explicit 'lock' class?
 
Also GC is fine you GCphobics
@Ell Yes
 
5:26 PM
$ pwd
/home/rmf/dev/wide/Wide
$ make -n
echo "==== Building Util (debug64) ===="
make --no-print-directory -C Util -f Makefile
:
echo "==== Building Semantic (debug64) ===="
make --no-print-directory -C Semantic -f Makefile
echo ClangTU.cpp
g++    -MMD -MP  -I../.. -I../../../llvm/tools/clang/include -I../../../llvm/build/tools/clang/include -I../../../llvm/include -I../../../llvm/tools/clang/lib -I../../../llvm/build/include -I../../a  -g -m64 -std=c++11 -D __STDC_CONSTANT_MACROS -D __STDC_LIMIT_MACROS -fPIC  -o "../Obj/x64/Debug/x64/Debug/Semantic/ClangTU.o" -MF ../Obj/x64/Debug/x64/Debug
 
It's not good that it's primitive to make it easy to learn
 
This is bad.
../../.. is /home/rmf, not /home/rmf/dev.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What? 'see full text' on your makefile? Do I sound crazy? :)
 
Why does it use relative paths.
 
premake is shit
 
5:27 PM
0
Q: How to open the web inspector in QWebView?

イオニカ ビザウI want to open the QWebView web inspector in my application because debugging in QWebView is needed. How can I do this? According to the documentation I tried: view->pageAction(QWebPage::InspectElement)->trigger(); and then this: view->page()->settings()->setAttribute(QWebSettings::Develo...

 
@MartinJames There's no more full text.
 
I passed --llvm-path=/home/rmf/dev/llvm, yet it uses relative paths.
 
@MartinJames Scoped locking
 
Oh wait - it's wide...
 
5:28 PM
Somehow.
@Dead is this premake, or do you relativise the paths yourself?
 
Premake, I think.
 
Ugh.
That's broken.
 
@CatPlusPlus It took you a long while to find a dubious use-case:)
 
WTF Why do people have dumb ideas like this?
 
@MartinJames I'm multitasking
(get it)
 
5:29 PM
Why the fuck would I pass an absolute path if I wanted a relative one.
 
@CatPlusPlus I'm afraid so :(
 
(Also, the relativising is broken too :S)
 
@MartinJames No but really, it could be a lock class and generic scope block, like try-with-resources
 
@MartinJames It's easy to understand on a microscopic level, assuming you already know something with similar syntax. The problem arises when you're building anything more than a trivial system with it--it's so verbose that what should be a fairly easy to understand system quickly becomes difficult to deal with from sheer scale. Because you need to create a new file for any type you either end up forgoing types that would be useful, or else with zillions of files, each nearly meaningless in itself.
 
5:30 PM
But leave it up to Java designers to get even simple shit wrong
And then C# designers to copy the stupid shit
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Add trailing slash.
 
Great path handling
 
IDK if Premake has any decent path handling
I never got around to checking.
 
Premake doesn't have decent anything
 
5:31 PM
@JerryCoffin Only public classes need their own file. You can have as many default-visibility classes in a file as you want. (Still sucks though)
 
@DeadMG what do you think of capitalism?
 
Really Love It
 
don't have anything better right now
 
Even CMake is better
At least it can generate ninja files
 
@Pawnguy7 IT HAS ITS USES.
 
5:32 PM
@DeadMG No help.
 
@MartinJames Why the caps?
 
@CatPlusPlus There's a ninja generator plugin. I have it on my to-try list.
@DeadMG Well, at least I figured out your issue.
 
@Pawnguy7 'CAPITALISM'
2
 
It's in core now I think
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh, right. Been a while since I used Java, but I still remember the annoyance of creating insane numbers of files for trivial types.
 
5:33 PM
Oh.
I missed that somehow.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I only do the dumbest of concatenation with the argument.
 
That's not how you handle paths
 
Still it's premake that fucks up.
If I add the slash it makes no difference.
Ooops.
 
You didn't add the slash :v
 
I was logging battery status at error level.
@CatPlusPlus I did now.
@DeadMG I'm leaving for dinner now. I'll see if I can learn more tomorrow.
 
fair enough.
 
> paths specifies a list of include file search directories. Paths should be specified relative to the currently running script file.
Ugh, it's documented.
What a piece of shit.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit At least we had a cool example
 
Hint: I pass an absolute path, you keep an absolute path. I pass a relative one, you keep a relative one.
So simple.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Now that's just crazy talk!
 
5:38 PM
did you try passing ~/ explicitly
I always passed mine as --llvm-path="~/blah"
ah never mind come back to it tomorrow.
 
user3010322
Why must build systems suck so bad. =/
 
Got it to work past that, but it's just a hack.
 
Why does my browser freeze sometimes when I try to download a stupid file
 
Fuck java AND relative paths. Oh, and mixers with crackly connectors, (which I have to fix tonight) - meh...
 
user3010322
@Rapptz Hurry up with Shinobi, I want that meta build system and I want it with lua!
 
5:40 PM
Bah Lua
 
user3010322
What is CMAKE's scripting languagE?
 
user3010322
Something specific to itself?
 
So much humbug today.
 
@Dead I got all the way to /bin/sh: 1: ../..//home/rmf/dev/llvm/llvm/build/Debug/bin/llvm-config: not found and then a bunch of linker errors. Good sign.
 
llvm-config is what specifies the correct library linking order for the LLVM libraries.
 
user3010322
5:42 PM
@CatPlusPlus Well, Lua is a decent language for doing something like a build system. I mean, fi you just let Lua take care of doing special things like fetching file paths and globbing and all, you can get pretty far I think.
 
@DeadMG I avoided ~ on purpose because some programs don't do ~-expansion properly.
 
if it wasn't found then the linker won't be instructed to link to LLVM
 
user3010322
I mean, it's either Lua or MSBuild's XML-Like syntax...
 
user3010322
I'm not sure what other language would be good for a build system.
 
@DeadMG Yeah, thing here is the Debug+Asserts business. Is that what --llvm-conf is for?
 
5:43 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes.
 
user3010322
And don't you dare say C#, because I worked with a C#-based build system and I wanted to throw myself out the 4th story window.
 
that's exactly what --llvm-conf is for.
 
@ThePhD Oh - there must have only been 4 stories.
 
Wait.
../..//home/rmf/dev/llvm/llvm/build/Debug+Asserts/bin/llvm-config is a broken path anyway.
Sigh.
This time it just dumped an absolute path on a relative one.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not surprised, with all that ../././././././.../......//../././.
 
5:44 PM
go eat your dinner man
 
@MartinJames GCC loves paths like that
 
@DeadMG It's a team dinner, and I'm still waiting for the rest of the folks here.
 
oh ok
 
user3010322
@CatPlusPlus You should see the party MinGW has
 
5:45 PM
then what I would say is, try with ~/dev/llvm as your --llvm-path.
 
MinGW and GCC are not different things
 
user3010322
I remember when I was making Visual GCC, holy christ it would ../../../../../folder/folder/../folder and I would be liek GUAAARGH
 
I moved this to ~/dev/extra/wide to add an extra directory as a hack.
 
lol
 
@ThePhD Dreck!
 
5:46 PM
Is "teach how" redundant?
 
when I was building I had ~/LLVM, ~/Wide.
maybe it just happened to work out.
 
Oh, this time it's your fault :P
 
o rly
 
As is it only works with relative paths.
You need to use proper path joining functions.
 
5:47 PM
/extra/wide - hmm.. less beer and no supper for me tonight.
 
what difference would that make between absolute or relative paths?
 
user3010322
195 / 260 projects built.
 
user3010322
WTB more ram.
 
user3010322
And SSD, pls.
 
When I was first learning HTML, I was not good at paths :\
 
5:48 PM
@DeadMG path_join(relative, absolute) yields absolute.
 
ah
 
Got it to find llvm-config but undefined refs.
Now I am really leaving, though.
See ya.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Later.
 
Bye!
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes Byyyyyyyyyye.
 
user3010322
5:50 PM
If I build LLVM here,
 
user3010322
and it still doesn't work,
 
user3010322
I think I will truly go and troll on #llvm irc, just for stress relief.
 
Sigh. This person...
 
@ThePhD That's a 30% chance of being fatal.
 
If they don't respond to an email the day I sent it, they never do.
Forward it, and get a response within the hour.
Go figure.
 
user3010322
5:52 PM
@StackedCrooked Guess I'll just have to stack more boxes.
 
@ThePhD How many boxes do you need? I only have 2, plus a laptop.
..and one of them needs to be pensioned off.
Why am I keeping a Pentium III box with a 470MB disk?
 
@ThePhD I still have the box in which my new computer arrived.
If you want it you can have it.
 
@StackedCrooked LOL!
I suppose I should fire up my old thing to see if it still works.
Oh look - it does. Bad news - I forgot the password:(
 
Day 3 of 71
so hungry I ate some real food, even though it's gonna make me super sick.
 
@DeadMG :(
 
6:07 PM
Wasn't it 50 something?
 
wasn't what 50 something?
 
Next appointment.
 
nope.
71 days from 2nd December.
that's actually 10 weeks, not 11, I miscounted before.
well at least I'm not hungry anymore.
 
Q: It is 25 minutes into the rehearsal; how many notes do you think I've played?
 
0?
 
6:13 PM
-1?
 
A: None; I'm late for the rehearsal.
Hope you enjoyed it.
 
Well, you should have played some, so I claim I'm closest.
 
Can we have a Lounge<Java> for a day? Just to see how hot things get in here?
 
@Jefffrey Great! Make it Friday.
 
Would that be blind leading the blind?
 
6:18 PM
I'm out all Friday, so I'll just watch on my phone.
 
@MartinJames The same reason I still have a 486 with a drive even smaller than that?
 
@JerryCoffin Maybe - I still occasionally use it for 16-bit software that will not run on my i7.
 
@Jefffrey There's already Java Sucks.
 
ahahah, yeah, with the feed :D
 
user1804599
Argh.
 
user1804599
6:22 PM
Fucking Django piece of shit.
 
user1804599
Y u no work with PUT and PATCH requests.
 
I'm not good at bashing Java. I've only prejudices towards the language, not actual arguments.
 
I love the ' Criticism of Java' post with the start of an over-long, unterminated list of java 'features', followed by '17 hours later…'.
 
@rightfold Have you seen Django Unchained ?
 
Otherwise I would be pretty active in that room. :P
 
user1804599
6:24 PM
No.
 
My main beef with Java, was they had me believe it was a replacement for c++ when I was first learning this stuff.
 
@rightfold It might improve your mood :)
 
user1804599
Django is very bad at HTTP.
 
> As an example, instead of a function called "Quicksort(Object)", in Java one would more likely find a separate class called "Quicksorter" that has a constructor taking an Object as an argument, and a single method called "run()" that actually performs the operation.
lol genius
 
@Polymer In what way was it not fulfilling your vision?
 
6:27 PM
@Pawnguy7 It was the attitude of a lot of Java advertisers around the time they were selling it for use in schools.
 
@Jefffrey Well, if the run() method is an override of a 'Task' run method, it would be easier to submit it to a threadpool, (I can't believe I'm justifying java crap).
 
In particular they liked to pick on c++ for allowing unsafe code.
 
Well.
 
The thing is, there are reasons for most unsafe code in c++, and there are design practices one can take to work around those issues.
 
@MartinJames are you being serious? I can't tell :/
 
6:29 PM
@Polymer Heh - TIL that you can pass 'false' into T* :((
 
C++ isn't simply "bad."
 
I am not certain it is invalid.
It is pretty hard to do these things in Java.
 
And then after learning c++, I learned about templates and generics. And full blown template meta-programming.
 
I don't think the point is whether or not it exists.
But rather the use thereof.
 
There was this whole design framework that Java doesn't even come close to modeling.
But it's supposed to somehow replace it by virtue of not breaking easily.
 
6:31 PM
Java people say Java design is bad?
 
I didn't say that.
 
@Polymer Sure it is
 
@Pawnguy7 Well C++ people say C++ design is bad.
 
Ell
c++ is significantly better than nothing
 
If you need workarounds for language crap, the language is bad
 
6:33 PM
What design are we talking about exactly?
 
Ell
so much so that lots of wonderful software has been written in it
 
inb4 'You should all be developing with Haskell'.
 
Like Firefox
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus what language doesn't have language crap?
 
Which freezes on downloads
 
6:33 PM
@CatPlusPlus suppose you want to write a generic function, that assumes the parameter is some integral type.
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus lol no it doesn't
(in any case I've seen)
 
@Ell It does for me, randomly
 
Freezes? You evidently haven't used Netbeans.
 
A basic algorithm that assumes the type is a basic arithmetic operator.
 
Ell
@Pawnguy7 netbeans is like frozen molasses
 
6:34 PM
On my Windows OSssss, it doesn't.
 
But really, you can make things slow in anything.
 
@Polymer Okay so?
It's not about "slow", it's about bugs
 
Templates are a useful feature, no doubt.
 
Now you discover your basic algorithm requires numbers significantly larger then a 64 bit integer.
 
Parametric polymorphism is not a C++-only thing
@Polymer Maybe cut to the chase and say how this relates to C++ being bad or not
(Hint it doesn't)
 
6:36 PM
Java doesn't directly support operator overloading.
 
Also better not assume the type is unsigned, otherwise your arithmetic is probably UB!
 
Java enums are useful though.
 
Operator overloading is... not related?
 
Yes it is.
If you want your templatized function to support a common interface for types support arithmatic axioms.
 
Overloading is ad hoc polymorphism, operator overloading is syntax sugar, and it has nothing to do with templates
 
6:37 PM
you need an interface which implies that those axioms are satisfied.
 
there are plenty of APInt types in C++
 
in java the interface for built in primitives, is different from some type you could provide.
 
Yes, but operator overloading does not make it special, and you don't need operator overloading to do that
Java is bad, too, but who the fuck cares about Java jesus
 
agree.
 
but an interface convention that you might propose for JavaBigInt, is going to be different then built in types.
 
6:38 PM
C++ is bad, and it has nothing to do with Java
 
You can write good programs in Java, just the attitude that Java somehow fixes everything wrong with c++ is just wrong headed.
 
Well.
 
what are you on about
 
in my "younger days" I decided to read up on Java instead of c++ since it was supposed to "replace c++." I bought marketer speak.
So I'm just annoyed at the attitude.
What language do you prefer other then c++ or Java :p
 
You can replace C++ by almost anything in almost every case
 
6:40 PM
There certainly was hype.
But hey, if you don't like it, don't use it.
 
@Polymer You can undoubtedly write good code in Java, but it does a great deal to get in the way, and attempt to prevent you from doing so. C++ has all sorts of shortcomings, but (at least in my experience) they do a lot less to get in the way of writing decent code.
 
Give a concrete example of a language that addresses the same issues as c++ as well.
 
Define "issues"
This is going to be ~~~~performance~~~~~ shit isn't it
 
Being a language that represents abstractions directly onto hardware.
 
Of course it is
 
6:41 PM
It doesn't have to be about performance.
 
Being close to hardware is useless for anything other than HPC
 
there just has to be something there.
 
And low level crap, but who cares about that
 
@Polymer If you really want to ask a question like that, I'd try to make it much more concrete. Just for example: "what language would you use to write a JVM?"
 
People that do embedded or something
 
6:42 PM
@CatPlusPlus :-)
 
But C++ is being pushed as general application language and 99% of applications will only trip on quirks and UB and other shit with this horrible piece of shit language
It's only good where there's nothing better
So yeah C++ is Java
There
 
@CatPlusPlus That's a fine point, but that doesn't make it bad.
 
I get an orgasm every time I think of C++ for web development. Mmmmm.
Also I like C++.
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus it's fun
 
@JerryCoffin Your right, that's probably a better question. It motivates "why" you'd want to care about abstractions in the first place.
 
6:46 PM
No, the unending rules and exceptions to rules, all of instances where behaviour is undefined (signed overflow is my personal favourite), compilation model and all of the other things inherited from C, the weak type system, snail paced development speed, incredibly primitive standard library, slow and unreliable tools, this is what makes C++ bad
Also the inability to shed the C baggage
 
Heh, SO: 'Using Eclipse I accidentally deleted the wrong folder on my file system and lost hundreds of java files on my mac yesterday'. Not sure that's a bad thing.
 
@CatPlusPlus Removing the systems language assumption, what language do you prefer for application development?
 
None
I'd rather not write code at all
But if I have to, C#, Python, Haskell
Erlang maybe
 
Well I like C# to.
 
6:50 PM
Basically because of R# and not because the language is that great or anything
 
@CatPlusPlus Yeah, that's a big problem
 
I've dabbled with Haskell. I've been meaning to play with lisp more.
Still don't know much about functional languages.
 
@Polymer You're a happy happy person :)
 
@ScarletAmaranth How so? For liking C#, or not knowing much about functional languages?
 
My bet is on the latter.
 
6:54 PM
@Polymer Pawnguy is right :)... many a monad has fried my brain many a time
 
Would you consider Haskell abstract?
 
@ScarletAmaranth Trouble is a like math, so I've had that issue in other contexts.
@Pawnguy7 I don't really know much about Haskell, so I can't say.
 
Neither do I.
If only Bartek were here.
 
abstract is also kind of a vague word.
 
Perhaps.
Or perhaps that which is abstract is vague.
 
6:58 PM
Haskell is always the best tool for the job except for when it's not, which is most of the times... expand on "being abstract".
 
Well.
In my experience, the more abstract math becomes, the less I can understand it.
 
A better word I could've used for c++, is that there is an emphasis on user made types being equal citizens to built in types.
 
What effect is there in Java for this?
 
lisp in contrast, is abstract in the sense that the language treats every function as if it were a language primitive.
 
you're using "abstract" all willy nilly
 

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