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10:00 PM
@MooingDuck Windows Update history?
 
@MooingDuck Are you sure you didn't fall asleep halfway through booting?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes it's possible it was merely "asleep" or "hibernating" I guess, but I'm pretty sure it was a cold boot. We'll see if it happens again next time.
 
Who has worked with Discrete Fourier transform ?
 
@user1131997 I did some research on it, a few months back
for JPG encoding
@user1131997 one piece of advice, if you want a FAST implementation, don't try to write one yourself, there's very optimized implementations out there, and the chances you can do better at writing it yourself, are small.
 
10:05 PM
@TonyTheLion Didn’t they publish a paper last year proposing a completely new algorithm that beats FFT by orders of magnitude?
Ah, this year
 
@KonradRudolph possibly, but I'm not the math genius to even try to understand it, I found just the DCT as it is, hard enough to understand
 
totally agree
 
You don't need to understand it, you just need to find working implementation.
 
@KonradRudolph but you should be able to make sense of it, with all your knowledge?
@CatPlusPlus the jpeg group actually has a jpg library, which has a very fast implementation, it's almost instantanious
 
No, really?
 
10:09 PM
@user1131997 fftw
 
Sarcasm.
 
@TonyTheLion Lol. “all my knowledge” If I took the time to study the necessary theoretical background then, yes, I don’t doubt that I would understand it
 
@KonradRudolph well, when I met you, you came across as a very smart person :)
 
Ell
back :D
 
@CatPlusPlus took me a while to realize that's where I should look
 
10:10 PM
@TonyTheLion Thanks ;-) But trust me, it’s 99% deception. The one thing I excel at is deception :p
 
@TonyTheLion That's not hard to fake.
 
@KonradRudolph lol, "The art of deception"
@RMartinhoFernandes possibly, just throw some intelligent sounding words around, and you've got it made
 
You need to study the audience first.
You don't want to get caught up on their field of expertise.
 
haha
yea, like saying anything C++ in here won't make you sound smart, you'll make a fool of yourself in 9 out of 10 cases
so much I've figured out :P
 
Wahh.. why doesn't my SHA-256 implementation work? :(
 
10:13 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes To be completely honest, I’m sometimes surprised how much superficial knowledge of a topic can be made to sound like you’re an expert
 
but perhaps mentioning BGP protocol for inter AS routing, might make you sound smart
 
(unless you meet an expert, obviously)
 
@KonradRudolph Yes, that's exactly what I was alluding to.
It's annoying when it happens unintentionally.
Then people come to you thinking you're an expert on something about which you read the wikipedia article.
 
what are you guys' thoughts on sqlite?
 
10:15 PM
it sucks
 
It's not ideal, but it works.
 
@KonradRudolph but your C++ knowledge isn't superficial
 
@paulwal222 a few years ago there was something about DB engine called Maria
 
and we talked about that a lot, IIRC
 
A friend of mine did some analyses on SQLite's source code for his master thesis and concluded it sucks.
 
10:17 PM
:P
 
@paulwal222 C++ programmers build their own databases. 8)
 
@CheersandhthAlf That's silly MySQL fork, which isn't any better than original.
 
Ell
loll
 
neverheard of maria
 
Nobody sane creates their own RDBMS.
 
10:17 PM
@CollinHockey what is 'fftw' ?
 
@cooky451 euh no, we get database people to build our databases for us
 
@CatPlusPlus as i recall it was the original author/team. so perhaps not so silly?
 
different story entirely
 
Well, unless they want to create RDBMS, specifically.
 
@CheersandhthAlf MySQL is silly to start with, so...
 
10:18 PM
@CheersandhthAlf MySQL sucks and the only way to fix it is to burn the source and forget it ever existed.
 
Yes. "Michael "Monty" Widenius, the original author of MySQL"
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus why does MySQL suck?
 
I love sqlite, why do you think it sucks, Tony The Lion?
Saying something sucks without further explanation sucks!
 
We've discussed this at least several times already. Go search the archives.
 
You go search the archives, I want to chat
 
10:19 PM
@paulwal222 good for you, but I don't want to have a discussion on this, cause whatever I say, you'll have an opposing statement to, which is an entirely silly discussion to waste my time on
 
@CatPlusPlus You should put it on the wiki... ;)
 
@user1131997 My god it's the first result on google: fftw.org
 
@paulwal222 He was replying to Alf, I think.
 
Tony, I'm not looking for a debate, I'm looking for unique perspectives. Sucks you don't want to share yours...
 
It's funny, when you're looking at common open source projects, 95% of the code seems to be a total mess. It's a little wonder those things actually work.^^
 
10:21 PM
^ he he
 
@Ell @Cat has ridiculously high standards, so when he claims something sucks, it's difficult to know if the thing really sucks.
 
@CheersandhthAlf You're an MVP?
 
Yah, unless April fool's joke?
 
How did you get to be in it?
 
@EtiennedeMartel There's no reason to use MySQL, when there's PostgreSQL which does everything better.
 
10:22 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes somebody nominated me
 
@CatPlusPlus The only reason I use MySQL is because I know how to use it
 
@CheersandhthAlf I'm confused. You were nominated for a joke?
 
But, I agree. MySQL is the PHP of RDBMS.
 
Ell
10:23 PM
PostreSQL is like OOP for databases isnt it?
 
So what is the fastest? MySql, PostgreSql, Sqlite, or?
 
Today, everything is a joke, so make no assumptions
 
@RMartinhoFernandes rather, my outstanding contributions to The Community. :-)
 
@Ell No, it's just another database engine
 
@CheersandhthAlf It's serious then?
 
10:24 PM
lol @ mysql is the php of rdbms
 
Ell
But i thought in PostreSQL, you could make rows where the datatype is another table? Making a table sort of like a class?
I dont know anything about databses :L
 
Yes, I think so. At least it says "MVP" on Microsoft Connect. So I'm waiting for this MVP Award Gift -- perhaps a Microsoft T-shirt?
 
I have to write a midlet, and every. damn. method. uses. checked. exceptions.
 
lol
wtf is a midlet?
 
What is everyone's favorite interpreted language?
 
10:25 PM
Why, why, why, why closing a record store throws exception.
 
@paulwal222 Python
 
A midlet is a midget that serves Web requests.
 
There's no such thing as interpreted language.
 
@CheersandhthAlf Congratulations, then!
 
10:25 PM
@EtiennedeMartel a midget?
 
popular one, python
 
LOL:
return x << N;
Gives (VS11)
warning C4554: '<<' : check operator precedence for possible error; use parentheses to clarify precedence
WTF?
 
Can one of you guys take a second to help me with a ball collision problem?
 
Cat, no such thing? how so?
 
I quite like Python
 
10:26 PM
@vorbis5 If your balls collide, I can't help you with that.
 
Because it's not a property of the language.
 
So you can write this:
`try {
....} catch (Excepetion ex) {
} finally {
try { thing.close() } catch (Exception ignored) {}
}`
 
This one should be on the wiki too: "Myth 17: There are interpreted languages"
4
 
Interpreting is a property of the implementation.
 
10:26 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes I'm not sure I understand this?
 
I need to write a blog post and buy a permalink domain to point to it.
 
Pedantics
 
theresnosuchthingasinterpretedlanguage.com
 
@CatPlusPlus sounds good to me :P
 
@TonyTheLion What part?
 
10:27 PM
"be"
 
Anyone else familiar with Tcl?
 
@EtiennedeMartel well they say so. but C++ is best compiled. Lisp is best interpreted, with just a bit of compilation thrown in.
 
@paulwal222 I prefer "assholes".
 
@RMartinhoFernandes what's an interpreter do to a language like Haskell then?
 
LOL @ Eitenne
 
10:27 PM
@paulwal222 I learned how to pronounce it like a month ago
 
Foo language's spec requires it be interpreted
 
@TonyTheLion Interprets it? No idea.
 
Haskell implementations come with REPL.
 
doesn't it "interpret" it, which makes it an "interpreted language"
 
The consensus of the old discussions was that "dynamic language" could maybe be meaningful. Essentially if you have something like "eval" in there.
 
10:28 PM
@TonyTheLion And a Haskell compiler compiles it.
 
Collin, I prefer Tee-Cee-Ell
 
Rendering the whole distinction you're trying to make worthless.
 
@paulwal222 "Tickle"
 
@RMartinhoFernandes so then that myth makes no sense
 
No kidding.
 
10:28 PM
@TonyTheLion Molest it.
 
compile != interpret
 
Do you use Tcl, Collin?
 
@TonyTheLion Yes, we all know that.
 
Actually interpreting these days is done by compiling and executing the result in a VM.
 
@paulwal222 Only tangentally, we have some build tools that use it, I've never actually written any
 
10:29 PM
you're making something which is different, sound like it's the same, by saying that making this distinction is useless
 
Tcl is cool for DSLs.
 
indeed
 
@TonyTheLion GHCi is the Haskell interpreter, GHC is the Haskell compiler. What does that say of Haskell itself?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes that it can be compiled or interpreted
what about Python?
 
Same thing.
 
10:30 PM
Same thing.
 
I won.
 
@CatPlusPlus But I said the same thing!
 
same thing
I won!
 
But I was first. Therefore, I win!
 
10:31 PM
A language is nothing without an interpreter or compiler
 
I let you win to lull you into a false sense of security. Then when the revolution comes...
 
the point is, that, basically, a language can be interpreted or compiled
 
Ell
oh not this again
 
Yeah. But it's not a property of the language itself.
 
but it's just that one or the other ONLY is unlikely
 
10:32 PM
I bet there's more than one purely theoretical language.
 
Can anyone compile English?
 
yea, a human can
 
@paulwal222 English is not a programming language.
 
Compile to what?
You can certainly parse it, to some extent at least.
 
humanish
 
Ell
10:32 PM
@CatPlusPlus you took the words right out of my mouth
 
A very high level one, Martinho
 
meaning
 
English is not a formal language.
 
Ell
it is free?
 
cat means an animal with furry fur and four legs that purrs and meows, it's part of the feline family
that is the word "cat" interpreted
simplistically said
 
10:33 PM
No, that's word "cat" defined.
 
whatever.
 
@paulwal222 If you describe a program in English, I can compile it.
 
Ell
you cant interpret the word cat without a context
 
But I still stand by my assertion that English is not a programming language.
 
afaik, a cat is always the same thing, no matter what the context
@RMartinhoFernandes this is true
 
10:34 PM
> A programming language is an artificial language designed to communicate instructions to a machine, particularly a computer.
@TonyTheLion $ cat
 
Ell
nobody would want english as a programming language, not written anyway. Maybe if it recorded you describing it your designs it could write them for you. In c++ or whatever
 
@RMartinhoFernandes damn you!
 
"dereference null pointer" <- compile it. :D
 
English is just too ambigious
@cooky451 it will compile, but it's UB
 
Cat's also an input device, AFAIR.
 
10:35 PM
@cooky451 int main() { *(void*)nullptr; }
 
int * x = 0; int b = *x;
 
Ok, RMartinho
----------
Dear Compiler,
I am writing to you to request that you include all standard libraries and wiki pages. Now as for the program itself, I would like it to be able to compile itself. Thank you. End.
-------------
 
@paulwal222 euh, wut?
 
Compilation is a process of translation from one language, to another.
 
RMartinho: @paulwal222 If you describe a program in English, I can compile it.
 
10:36 PM
He compiled it, to C++.
 
Querido compilador,
Escrevo-lhe para pedir que inclua todas as bibliotecas standard e páginas da wiki. Quanto ao programa em si, quero que seja capaz de se compilar a si mesmo. Obrigado. Fim.
 
Wiki pages are english language code libraries
You win.
 
Eh, back to damn Java.
 
Ell
@RMartinhoFernandes is that portugese?
 
Cross-compiled to spanish
 
10:37 PM
@Ell Yes.
 
you ported my code. nice
 
Portuguese sounds cool
 
@paulwal222 Compilation is the process of translation one programming language into another.
 
@CatPlusPlus I think you would have a much more positive view on life if you stopped wasting it by writing Java.
 
If we can assume English is a programming language, I think we can say the same of Portuguese.
 
10:38 PM
Can't.
Uni work.
 
Oh.
Damn, that sucks.
 
touche RMartinho.
 
So if interpreting isn't a property of the language, aren't languages aimed at certain interpreters? C is interpreted by the compiler and compiled to assembly which is interpreted by a processor, right? So aren't all languages interpreted?
 
Ell
@paulwal222 no because the universe is deterministic (compiled) ;)
 
10:43 PM
Doesn't that make the category worthless?
 
Ell
actually thats a lie, the universe is not deterministic :L
 
lol
 
Ell
because of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and whatnot
 
@Ell That doesn't say things happen randomly.
 
Ell
@RMartinhoFernandes but it means the universe is not deterministic
because we cant be sure of the position of electrons
I believe?
 
10:44 PM
It simply says you can't measure things with total accuracy.
 
lol, SSH actually always adds padding to the data, even though it would fit perfectly fine.
 
I'll have some assignment related to Planck constant on the next physics lab.
 
@CatPlusPlus Ooh, more conclusions.
 
I do prefer "interpreted language" over "scripting language" shudder
 
Actually, if we manage, we'll be able to do everything during the lab and not have to do report afterwards.
 
10:46 PM
fuck it, let's just do the lab now
 
"Scripting language" is as meaningless as "interpreted language".
 
Ell
Although incorrect I wouldnt say it was meaningless
 
might as well call 'em "computing languages"
 
Ell
when you say "scripting language" you can pretty much rule out c++ and c.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I'm going to do some work in Java! :'(
 
10:47 PM
There are embeddable implementations of both C and C++.
So, no, you can't, they can be used for scripting too.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes What kind of work?
 
I'll have that, too.
After JavaME madness.
 
Oh, it's not that bad.
Android > Java ME.
 
This class is annoying.
No kidding.
 
10:49 PM
I know it's not good to compare things that are not even in the same leagues.
 
so can anyone make a case how c/c++ can be classified as markup languages?
 
A friend of mine is on a startup and wants my help to write a prototype.
 
Markup languages are not programming languages.
 
@paulwal222 What?
 
@CatPlusPlus css is now turing-complete, iirc
 
10:53 PM
CSS + HTML and possibly + JS.
 
@EtiennedeMartel SO CAN ANYONE MAKE A CASE HOW C/C++ CAN BE CLASSIFIED AS MARKUP LANGUAGES?
 
Which really makes the exercise not very interesting.
 
@CheersandhthAlf CSS with HTML.
 
@CheersandhthAlf I think xslt was turing complete from the start
 
10:54 PM
@CatPlusPlus no, not js. we're talking markup language here.
 
Why would we want to - it just isn't.
 
@paulwal222 Careful there, I might flag that.
 
@paulwal222 No shouting, please.
 
Sorry, He could't hear me! ;)
Etienne, I was just being silly
carry on
 
@CheersandhthAlf Also, it's very limited and cannot act without user input.
 
10:55 PM
The "what" referred to what you wrote, not how you wrote it.
 
Which again makes the entire thing not really interesting at all.
 
@je4d XSLT was created to describe programs.
It is not a markup language.
 
right, so it's not interesting. but html+css is perty much purr markup
 
It's like implementing a hardware clock by making human press the button every second.
Oh the novelty.
 
@CheersandhthAlf Sorry, misclicked :S
 
10:57 PM
@paulwal222 C++ is not a markup language. Read the article on wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markup_language
 
You know what else is Turing-complete? Life (the 0-player game).
It's still not a programming language (it's a cellular automaton).
 
0
A: How does this implementation of turing-complete Rule 110 in HTML5+CSS3 work?

usrYou pressing the keys are an "external loop" which is invoking code that is not turing complete: HTML + CSS (excluding CSS Javascript expressions...) always halts so it is not turing complete. But calling non-turing-complete code in a loop can make it turing complete.

 
Dwarf Fortress machinery is Turing-complete.
Dwarf Fortress liquid physics are Turing-complete.
Doesn't make it a programming language.
 
Does make it hell lot more awesome than 100 checkboxes in HTML with some silly CSS attached.
 
Ell
Redstone computers woo!
 
10:59 PM
@Ell Right, Minecraft too.
 
@CatPlusPlus Now now, shouldn't you be using Factor instead? :)
 
Ell
@RMartinhoFernandes but you can actually programme in minecraft :L
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I don't really see why that means it's not a markup language, although i'm sure you can fine a def'n for markup language that excludes it
 
@je4d It's not a language for marking up documents.
It's for describing transformations of documents from one form to another, aka, programs.
 
Words, very hard.
 
11:01 PM
You don't annotate documents with XSLT.
@Ell Erm, just like you can program in Dwarf Fortress.
What's the difference?
 
Ell
@RMartinhoFernandes sorry I have never played dwarf fortress :L
 
> This calculator has more processing power than twenty dwarves combined! However, that's not really saying much.
 
Ell
@RMartinhoFernandes what is that calculator on?
 
Dwarf Fortress. With magma.
 
A 20dp calc? cool
 
11:11 PM
> for-each loops not supported in -source 1.3
 
What's that?
 
Why do every damn technology on the embedded systems class HAS TO BE SO FUCKING OUTDATED.
 
Oh, writing that midlet thing.
 
Write that midget.
 
@CatPlusPlus Android isn't outdated!
Well, maybe if you'll be using 1.0 or something.
 
11:15 PM
Grump grump.
 
11:25 PM
@CatPlusPlus Android counts for an embedded systems class? Wuh?
 
You guys need some rasberry pis, and start writing some kernel modules
 
Now you know: next time someone says "ah but in embedded systems you can't do X and Y because memory something blah resources" you just reply "Android runs Java".
 
Android uses its own JVM, Dalvik.
 
"Fridge error: cannot insert new food, could not allocate memory."
 
11:28 PM
And Dalvik started JITing stuff with Android 2.2, IIRC. So Android was slow before that version.
 
So?
It sucks either way. :P
I'd rather use NDK, but nooo, Java.
 
Anyway it's a moot point, modern smartphones have dual core processors and at least one GB of RAM.
 
Probably the test phones are from dawn of time, too.
 
dalvik is optimized to consume less power
 
At least this app I can test on my phone. :.
Those damn emulators are so slow and crappy.
 
11:30 PM
I wonder if it would have been better to use Python instead of Java for Android.
At least Google would have avoided the Oracle lawsuit that way.
 
Haskell!
 
Oh, you.
You're a funny person.
 
"We don't know how to write apps, but all our apps are bug free."
 
int main() {} is bug free.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Large python applications tend to get a bit unweildy.. maybe I'm just not doing it right
 
11:34 PM
You're probably not doing it right.
 
Unit tests.
And not doing Java-like overengineered architecture nobody understands or actually needs.
(IOW: don't do another Zope.)
 
@EtiennedeMartel That's a meaningless statement as you haven't stated the intended behaviour of the program.
@CatPlusPlus The good thing about Haskell is that QuickCheck takes the boring part out of unit tests.
 
That's the point: it doesn't behave.
 
Which might be a bug.
 
"Write a hello world program"
 
11:53 PM
> The distributors only have 5,000 units each to sell, reports have estimated the registered interest/pre-orders totalling over 2 million (no official figures available yet). Even if it is half of that, it means the number of available units was less than 1% of the demand.
Woah, that Raspberry Pi thing was really a hit.
 

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