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4:00 PM
Sounds interesting.
Note to self: if you want to scan something you need to put that something in the scanner.
 
Anyone Familiar with Qt?
 
meld is just a convenient visual diff
 
Also commit more often.
 
4:09 PM
aye - I've learned my lesson
 
Do like the puppy: commit once in a blue moon and then complain loudly when you fuck up.
 
I'm really looking forward to the new Sandy Bridge due out this year:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_bridge

a 6-core should do nicely for cutting down compile times (especially code with lots of templates)
 
Woot. I'm a law abiding citizen once more.
 
It won't do that much.
You can't parallelise compilation of a single TU.
 
BUT CORES SPEED THREADS THINGS.
 
4:18 PM
So you'll only get 2 simultaneous compiler instances more.
And it's more than likely to be heavily RAM bound.
 
We need better compilers or (if that's hopeless) better languages.
 
Both.
Well, there's no hope for C++, anyway.
 
when I do a -j 6 on an i7 chip, it's certainly faster than -j 2 on a core duo. I expect the new sandy bridges to help even more...
you're right about a single TU tho - clock speeds aren't exactly shooting through the roof any more...
 
TMP code is stateless so it could be parallelisable.
 
didn't realize how compute intensive TMP code was until I tried compiling a simple boost/spirit calculator recently: ouch
 
4:27 PM
I honestly don't understand it.
 
don't understand why it should take so long?
 
it must be building one heck of a state-machine under the hood...
 
sbi
When I was doing extensive C++ in VS, we used IncrediBuild by Xoreax, which distributes compilation throughout a network. Compiling on one or two dozen cores does make a noticeable difference to two cores.
 
4:30 PM
@sbi And too bad if you have sequential dependency.
 
The answer is "because C++ compilers suck balls".
 
That's exactly what I think.
I can't find a justification for running so slow.
 
sbi
@Xaade This parallels individual cpp files.
 
well, the C++ language contortions forces C++ compilers to suck donkey balls
 
I still don't buy that.
Most of the crap is in syntax.
 
4:31 PM
Parellelising compilation works best when dependencies are minimal.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes You'd run slow if you had a broken leg.
 
And parsing can't be the bottleneck because adding 10kloc of non-template code doesn't make as big an impact as 10kloc of template code.
 
@sbi So, you'd get no benefit from sequentially dependent libraries, that each have one .cpp
 
Maybe compiler vendors wait with optimising stuff after they're actually done implementing the damn language.
Which will probably never happen.
 
But export is out now!
 
4:33 PM
But it's a good excuse, I guess.
 
Walter Bright of D language fame has written many compilers in his lifetime - he purposefully designed D to be cleanly one-pass compilable (at least in the early days) - I don't know if it's still true after they've introduced templates
(not sure if they've actually added templates tho - haven't looked at D in over a year)
 
I disabled compiler optimizations because there was so much poor coding styles, the optimizations were actually breaking the code.
 
They did.
 
// This is one pass compilable
 
The C# compiler is a multi-pass compiler (something like 6+ passes or something) and it's fast as heck. I don't think one-pass compilers have advantages nowadays.
 
4:35 PM
Also, I failed that test I was hating on yesterday.
Most compilers are multi-pass, because forcing declaration order sucks.
Hell, even assemblers are multi-pass.
 
I like compiler optimizations - it's one more variant to test my code on (other variants like building and testing on different OSes also help to uncover bugs)
 
sbi
@Xaade And just how often have you seen such libs? What I was working on back then usually had one or two dozen projects in a solution, up to hundreds of cpp files each. I remember IncrediBuild cutting compilation times from 50mins to 12mins in one project, when I used 17 cores.
 
Got an email from my boss that only says "In my office..."
I'm glad the subject says "Donuts"
 
Or maybe it's "do nuts".
 
sbi
4:37 PM
When we had an evaluation version with an unlimited number of cores, we installed IncrediBuild on every machine in the company we got our hands on. The girls in the office never wondered what their computers were doing while they chatted about recipes.
 
go nuts?
 
> File-Sharing Recognized as Official Religion in Sweden
 
@sbi You were exploiting them!
@CatPlusPlus Awesome. What's their god?
 
@sbi IncrediBuild sounds like it's ripe for an open-source project 8^)
 
Are you sure they were chatting about recipes?
 
4:38 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Bram, probably.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes We were one of their first customers to use a GB LAN, so they issued us a beta version and asked us to torture it.
 
> After their request was denied several times, the Church of Kopimism – which holds CTRL+C and CTRL+V as sacred symbols – is now approved by the authorities as an official religion.
 
sbi
@kfmfe04 That software is not to be underestimated. You don't even have to install the compiler on the build slaves. I think it creates a virtual file system on the remote machine and syncs it with yours. Really incredible.
 
morning
 
Does following a religion in Sweden give you tax breaks or something?
 
4:41 PM
you can break a bunch of labour laws and stuff in the UK if it's for religious purposes
 
@sbi well, I certainly have boxes sitting around doing nothing that I'd like to burn some cycles on
 
sbi
@Xaade Well, "girls" was an euphemism. One of them had children my age, one was a bit older than me, the other a decade younger (thus still "old" from your POV).
 
@sbi Youth is in the heart.
 
sbi
@kfmfe04 The software was also incredibly expensive back then. (Not that it wouldn't pay off, but you'd have to persuade the bean counters first.) I think they are a lot cheaper by now.
 
yay for having my pair of 1080p screens back!
 
sbi
4:43 PM
Anyway, gotta feed the kids. afk
 
You can do that with distcc and rsync, probably.
No need to buy expensive fancy software.
 
@sbi I'm googling for a *nix variant
 
what, of feeding the kids?
 
50 secs ago, by Cat Plus Plus
You can do that with distcc and rsync, probably.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes thx for the tip - I missed that msg
@CatPlusPlus distcc looks v.nice - I could just build on a shared drive I think
sudo apt-get install distcc - does the trick - looking at it now
there's a distccd
looks really good - no need to throw away old boxes (well, the 32-bit boxes won't be useful for compiling - will have to delegate them to webserver, ftp work) - will play with NFS this weekend (wonder what's the best DFS these days...)
 
4:52 PM
@kfmfe04 You can cross-compile on the 32-bit ones, no?
 
I think a non-64bit server must be many years old now
 
aye - bot about 4+ yrs ago - I can build 64-binaries on 32-bit machines?
 
Dunno, but I'd expect that to be possible.
There's nothing tying the output of a compiler to the machine it is running on.
 
may be more trouble than it's worth, even if it is... ...I know I can cross-compile, but I doubt I can do 64 compiles on a 32-bit cpu
 
Why not?
You don't need 64-bit pointers in the compiler to output 64-bit code.
 
4:57 PM
Of course you can build 64-bit binaries on 32-bit machine.
 
Btw, @DeadMG how would cross-compilation work with WideC? It's weird because you need to run parts of programs on the compilation machine.
 
In the same way you can build SPARC binaries on x86 machine.
 
I didn't know that - just setting a bunch of flags? will take a look
 
It has nothing to do with host architecture.
 
well
you obviously can't take a pointer from the compiler's address space into run-time, because they're in different address spaces, regardless of anything else
 
4:58 PM
I don't know if 32-bit GCC supports multilib, then you'd just have to pass -m64.
If not, you need to build GCC that targets 64-bit CPU.
 
@DeadMG But can't you write code that behaves differently on 32- and 64- bit?
 
Or use Clang, if it has 64-bit target already.
 
sure, but if you write non-portable code, then it's your own fault
 
Or all fundamental types have known fixed sizes?
 
All types have random sizes.
 
5:00 PM
looks like the only tricky part is installing multilibs on Ubuntu - besides that, just pass -m64 to gcc
 
Different on every run.
 
more explicitly, if you have code that can only run on the target or the compilation machine, then you need to document and enforce that restriction
 
@CatPlusPlus You know, that actually sounds doable in WideC :S
 
lol
 
throw throw throw.
 
5:00 PM
no, you can't throw throw throw throw :P
 
@DeadMG Ah, so cross-compilation needs extra care. I see.
 
well, not really
you'd only need extra care if you had code that wasn't platform-independent
I mean, yes, to an extent, if you code up a Windows message loop, run it at compile time and start rendering Direct3D graphics as part of compilation...? then you can't just move your source code to Linux
but equally, if you do that, then it's no less portable than doing that at run time
 
and the compiler effectively abstracts over pointers between times anyway because they're obviously non-portable
 
First task after standard library: a library that allows programs to display a progress bar while compiler. Next step: a library that allows programs to let the user play a game while it's compiling.
 
5:04 PM
oh, I can totally write a library that lets the user play Tetris whilst compiling :P
 
@DeadMG Right, but I could compile a C++ Direct3D program in Linux.
 
you could compile it from Windows to target Linux at run-time
yes
 
If your program has Direct3D both on compile and runtime it can only be compiled on Windows. But if the Direct3D is all runtime, it can be compiled on Linux.
 
however, right now, TWSWI will only target Windows x64 for both compilation and execution
also, I decided to drop the C from the end of the name, it just feels unnatural
 
What's TWSWI?
 
5:08 PM
The World's Simplest WPF IDE
 
What.
You're doing an IDE, too?
 
@CatPlusPlus AFAIK it's a textbox and two buttons.
He likes to call it an IDE.
 
hey, it has four buttons and a tab control full of buttons
 
5:09 PM
not that I can actually remember what the other buttons did
 
"Official WideC IDE — it has buttons!"
 
and obviously it'd need a little work
but I figure that if I want to prove that it can be done, then there's only one way to do that, which is to do it
I don't have to ship the best implementation ever, just one that demonstrably works
 
You know your page allows access to /etc/passwd, right?
 
huh?
 
5:12 PM
@CatPlusPlus What?
Awesome.
 
I already noticed that
although I don't know what /etc/passwd actually is
 
@DeadMG It used to be where the password hashes (easily crackable) were stored.
Nowadays it's just user data.
 
well, I guess I should fix it
 
Just a file, but I don't remember any interesting places to look for in broken websites.
 
5:14 PM
But the main point is, we can access anything on the server.
 
took a bit of a "WTF I don't care" approach to security since there's nothing there to secure, as it were
 
Well, almost anything. /etc/shadow (where the passwords are actually stored) is only visible to root.
 
you won't break the password I used with a dictionary attack anyway
 
Well, passwd gives you valid usernames, at least.
 
it's literally the output of my friend mashing his face on the keyboard
 
5:15 PM
There's bound to be a person using "password".
 
OMG, that's a shared server.
 
yes, I know
 
That means we can see other user's data.
 
so a vulnerability in my website makes other people's websites vulnerable too?
 
If they're stupid.
 
5:17 PM
@DeadMG You probably don't have access to their folders.
 
chmod 777 all the things!
 
But now we know the usernames of all of them.
And if you secure it, but they don't, your username data is still available from their sites.
That sucks.
 
trying to use set_include_path to get rid of it
but it doesn't seem to take any notice of what I've written
 
No idea what that means. I don't touch PHP with a 10-foot pole.
 
set_include_path doesn't do what you think it does.
 
5:21 PM
ugh, me neither
I'd never have even such a simple thing coding in ASP.NET
WinForms sucks, but it's better than PHP
 
You mean WebForms, right?
 
yeah
harharhar, fixed it
 
then I broke it
now it won't access my own page :P
 
May I ask why you're passing the page on as a query parameter instead of accessing it directly?
 
5:26 PM
it's easier to automate
 
What?
 
Automate what?
 
for example, I have include($other_page); then include($page);
 
Yeah, we know, that's why it's broken.
You don't seem to need PHP at all, TBH.
 
if I didn't have to do the equivalent of putting everything in a fucking header, it wouldn't be so laborious
oh fuck that
 
5:28 PM
You could just generate a static website and use that.
 
PHP sucks donkey dick, but I'd rather that than outputting HTML by hand or someshit like that
 
Your site is static.
 
well, I've never actually generated any static websites
 
You write the layout parts in HTML, the rest in Markdown or something, preprocess and upload the result.
 
Also, you need to output HTML from PHP no? (I wouldn't know)
 
5:29 PM
so I wouldn't know
 
See e.g. Jekyll.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yes, but I have code in PHP that does useful shit like closing tags and building trees for me
 
PHP has RAII?
 
Besides, you don't even have a layout.
 
no, that's what include($otherpage) was for
the other page sets up the HTML tree and then prints it when include($page) returns
 
5:30 PM
Ok, I clearly don't know enough PHP to understand this.
 
So there's no HTML to write besides <!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title>title</tile></head><body>preprocessed content</body></html>.
Also, XHTML sucks.
Especially Transitional.
 
Why would you use XHTML?
 
@CatPlusPlus thanks for the threesome link
 
Trust me, I'm a webdev.
 
dunno, I think I copied and pasted it from Stack Overflow
 
5:31 PM
Really, see Jekyll, it's cool.
 
@CatPlusPlus Anything with XML in it sucks. No need to be a webdev to know that.
 
Why is webdev so badly designed?
 
but then I'd have to know Ruby or someshit like that
 
@Pubby It grew organically.
@DeadMG Dude, you're using PHP. You can hardly descend lower.
 
well I didn't choose PHP
it came with the hosting site that Jalf recommended
if I had a choice, I'd go ASP.NET
 
5:34 PM
@DeadMG ISTR it supported other languages. I can only remember Perl though.
 
evening PHP'ers
 
That's Dreamhost?
 
last time I tried PHP I barfed
 
Or am I remembering something wrong?
 
yes
it's Dreamhost
 
5:35 PM
@DeadMG It has Python.
 
It has freaking GCC.
I remember deploying GHC there, too.
And compiling Python from the source.
 
well, I'd really like to use ASP.NET
 
You could probably put a Mono binary there.
 
I'm still in my 2 week trial so I might cancel and see if I can find an ASP.NET host
 
@DeadMG discountasp.net
is the one I use
 
5:37 PM
There's an Apache module to serve pages with Mono.
 
It probably won't compile there due to runtime restrictions, but precompiled binary should run just fine.
 
user142019
Windows is pretty damn good. It crashed my Mac while running in a virtual machine.
 
are you kidding? I can't even find the PHP configuration file
 
@DeadMG Remember you can't transfer your domain before 60 days have passed.
 
You can't reconfigure Apache on Dreamhost, though, you'd need Fast/Simple/CGI
 
5:37 PM
@WTP hahah
 
hmmm
 
@WTP Right blame Windows and not the isolation.
 
user142019
Maybe I allocated too much video memory for it.
 
well, I'd rather be using a web dev language I have a fraction of skill in
 
@DeadMG I can't help but laugh when I hear PHP configuration file.
 
"Where can I find the C++ configuration file?"
2
 
php.ini is so fucking stupid I can't even put it into words.
 
lol
 
what the heck is it supposed to do?
 
5:39 PM
If I had a sockpuppet I'd ask that now claiming a background in PHP.
 
what do you need to configure? I mean, I hope not whether strings are zero terminated by default or something like this?
@RMartinhoFernandes oh you give me an idea...
 
What?
You have a sockpuppet?
 
You think all those people coming in here you've never seen or heard of are real?
 
It's called "Lion The Tony" so that nobody can tell.
 
lol
that would be too easy
 
5:41 PM
lol
GG op no fucking re
 
Sockpuppeting is really frowned upon. Harsh punishments and all that. Just saying.
 
@DeadMG what?
@RMartinhoFernandes well, let them figure it out... gives em something to do
 
@TonyTheLion Good game, overpowered, no fucking rematch.
 
5:43 PM
QQ
 
ok
I closed my Dreamhost account but I kept my registration of that domain
you're saying I can't re-use it for another 51 days?
 
meh that sucks
 
@DeadMG You can't change registrar.
It's still available and points to whatever the DNS makes it point too.
I expect you have access to the DNS configuration?
 
well I don't care about who it's registered to, I care that I can sign up for an account with ASP.NET or someshit and then use that
yes
 
5:46 PM
I'm sure you can
just change the DNS nameservers to point to the new host
 
And PIN numbers.
 
it's not a phone
 
right
 
@TonyTheLion My credit card has a PIN number. It's not a phone.
 
5:47 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes lol true
 
so thanks Dreamhost but no thanks
I ended up having to pay ten bucks for the domain, I think, but that's it
 
FYI, I'm pointing out redundancy. Also "DNS entries" would be more correct.
 
@DeadMG You paid for it and it's yours. No loss there.
 
yes, I know
you know, for a web hosting company, that discountasp.com has a kinda shitty site
 
It's called "discountasp.com".
 
5:49 PM
Gosh.
Ugh.
 
rofl
 
that is true
 
> FREE DiscountASP.NET is offering the community a FREE WebMatrix v2 beta hosting sandbox in our Labs. Test out what's coming vNext! Program extended until March 1, 2012.
Apparently it's FREE.
 
5:50 PM
WebMatrix is a CMS thingy I think.
 
I think "FREE" is the most common word on that page.
 
oh the matrix...
 
Lol.
- ComponentOne
- FREE Menu
- FREE Toolbar
Pro webdev here, folks.
Woah, 80GB of bandwidth.
So generous.
 
Is that much? (I have no idea)
 
sbi
> The python library was OK, but did not really operate too well at our scale. Profiling showed that much time was spent copying data around. The server periodically crashed or hung, resulting in dropped messages and instability. The inefficiency required us to use a medium instance ($0.17/hour) to serve traffic, which put us at about $4/day. Still substantially lower than App Engine, but too high!
> The server was then re-written in C++, using gloox, libcurl, openssl, and pthreads. Each message is dispatched to a threadpool. Blocking https calls are made to the App Engine server, and the results are then sent via ejabberd. This server is able to handle our max load (~ 12-16 inbound messages per second, resulting in around 400-600 outbound messages per second) at under 5% cpu load on a micro instance (at $0.02/hour).
 
5:54 PM
Well, depends on website and traffic.
 
@CatPlusPlus Well, when you said "So generous" were you being sarcastic?
 
@sbi They probably could've written it in Erlang with a similar result and much less effort.
@RMartinhoFernandes Yes.
 
Dammit, treat my questions as English.
 
sbi
What is it with you C++ folks that you feel the urge to diss the language you love so much?
 
I thought we all agreed C++ sucked
 
5:56 PM
> libcurl, openssl, and pthreads
it's C libraries =\
 
user142019
I disagree.
 
It still sucks for concurrency.
 
user142019
We have libdispatch for that.
 
@WTP You haven't used enough C++, then.
 
(boost.)asio ftw
 
5:58 PM
@sbi So the lesson is: "Python is not webscale"?
 
user142019
What is?
 

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