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11:00 AM
It would ruin their NPOV and all that crap.
 
and it's been a long time since users mattered to wikipedia. For the user, there might be little difference between nagging requests for donations and ads, but to the wiki elite, it's a very important difference because it shows how neutral and independent they are
and we all know from politics that donations have absolutely no influence on the recipient's neutrality or objectivity whatsoever
4
 
seriously, nagging requests are a lot more annoying than ads.
 
I don't really see the big difference.
 
@IntermediateHacker yes, but only to us. To them, it's a way to show the world how superior they are
 
11:02 AM
damn wikipedia ego.
 
 
11:19 AM
What the heck is a "mem-initializer"?
Ah, member initializer. My GCC seems to be running out of letters for error messages.
 
Guess that means memset = member set
 
I just discovered the official unicode character database. This stuff is really truly awesome: http://www.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/
For example the "UnicodeData.txt" file has pretty much everything you need for a fully unicode aware string class.
 
and it's only 1.3MB
 
all files (including simply formatted test files) are 2.5 MB zipped (14.3 MB unzipped). I'm going to see if I can make anything useful out of this.
 
user142019
Now if Windows 8 were only 2.5 MB.
 
11:34 AM
if Windows 8 would only have decent Unicode support
 
user142019
It doesn't? (I'm not very familiar with Windows.)
 
My only advice is to not use 'string' in the name of the class. Call it 'text' or something. (That isn't the best advice I've ever come up with I think.)
 
how about a namespace named nonstd? That's what I came up with last night :P
 
@WTP Nothing has.
 
@Pubby Who is that dude?
 
user142019
11:37 AM
@MrAnubis Looks like Jimmy Wales, the guy from Wikipedia.
 
It's Jimbo, unless you're referring to the dude
 
@WTP right , he was looking familiar but couldn't remember the name :)
 
user142019
brb
 
LOL, I remembered this one from Windows Vista: blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/11/14/…
Epically failed improvement IMHO.
Let's hope they fix it right this time
 
user142019
back
 
11:51 AM
got my self some new headphones, the in ear sort, with silicone dodads so they fit nicely... my ears seem to be in between two of the sizes... and different sizes as well
 
user142019
@rubenvb they should check out Linux.
 
@thecoshman Nice to know I'm not the only on with freak ears.
3
 
@WTP it is so too late for that. And Linux isn't that perfect. You often still need to restart X (which is pretty much a half reboot application-wise...
 
@RMartinhoFernandes have you found a solution! I fear I might have to get big fat head phones... the over ear type...
 
@thecoshman No, I haven't found a solution other than using big head phones.
 
11:55 AM
honestly, I don't see the big difference. It's mainly that Win7 (and vista) has a nag window pop up to remind you that you need to reboot for certain updates to take effect
but as far as I know, the underlying situation isn't much different with linux. Intrusive updates still require you to restart sooner or later.
 
@rubenvb most updates on linux just need the affected apps to restart. Sometimes you need to log out for the change to take affect. very occasionally you need to restart for the low level things to be updated. Either way, all the updating is very seemless. The most annoying thing, at least in Ubuntu, is that the turn of menu has a red icon to indicate it would like you to restart
@RMartinhoFernandes :( god dam it :(
 
And considering Microsoft pushes out one batch of updates each month, it's not exactly a frequent occurrencce
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Are you talking about your actual ears?
 
@Pubby yeah... it seems me and @RMartin have freaky ears
 
11:57 AM
Most earphones either fall off my right ear, or they cause pain in my left ear.
 
@thecoshman I know, I run Arch, sometimes. Yet for "safety" you need to update from runlevel 3 (no X), wich kind of defeats the whole "no reboots" thing.
 
user142019
I use speakers.
 
One side bent up and one to the side like Robbie?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes ... my left ear too...
 
11:57 AM
@thecoshman but you're talking about updates to "affected apps". I can update applications on Windows without rebooting too. It's the updates to core OS services that are a problem
 
@WTP at work? not really an option
 
and in my experience, they generally won't take effect until you restart on Linux either
correct me if I'm wrong
 
user142019
@thecoshman at home. Didn't know you were talking about at work.
 
@jalf well, I was talking about both apps and os
 
11:58 AM
@jalf You can't hotswitch kernels. But most other things can be done without a reboot.
 
@thecoshman but when was the last time an app on Windows required you to reboot?
 
@WTP and out and about as well. At home its loud HI-FI all the way :D
 
At least on Gentoo.
 
user142019
What music do people here listen?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes but what if you could... ¬_¬ make an OS that is purpose built to allow it update with out ever having to restart...
 
11:59 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes and aren't the windows updates that require reboots typically that too, updates to the kernel?
 
@WTP loud
 
user142019
@thecoshman that would be awesome for servers.
 
@jalf it seems to be more or less anything MS related
 
@jalf Possibly, I usually don't peer too much into update details.
 
@thecoshman such as?
 
12:00 PM
any ways... lunch time :D
 
Unless I'm missing something, we're talking about one update prompt per month, when they release all the updates for that month
and so, just one of them has to require a restart in order to take effect
Is that so different from Linux?
 
The only thing I really want is the ability to restart without installing the updates.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes isn't that just a matter of not installing the updates? :|
 
@thecoshman Like, VMS, Tandem systems or Minix?
 
@jalf Not if they're on auto!
 
12:04 PM
so you're complaining that if you set your machine to auto-install updates, it auto-installs udpates?
Yeah, what moron came up with that behavior
 
Sometimes I'm on a public place and need to get away quickly (getting on the bus, leaving the library that is about to close, etc) and I don't want to wait ten minutes for my computer to shutdown.
 
Then force it to.
 
@jalf No, I mean, I want "Shutdown" and "Shutdown quickly without updating, I'll do it later".
 
you can set a schedule for when it should install updates
 
@IneedHelp How so?
 
12:05 PM
or just disable auto-updates
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Keep the power button pressed for 10 seconds.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes just change that setting in windows update
make it notify you about updates, without installing them, for example
if you tell it to automatically install updates, then you shouldn't be surprised when it installs updates
 
@jalf That's what I've done in the past. And then I ended up installing 6-month old updates :S
 
user142019
At elementary school all computers were set up so that if there was an update available, you had one minute to save everything and then it would log out, download the updates and install them. Then reboot. -_-
 
Then keep your system clean and light and operate on a virtual computer or more.
 
12:07 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes why are you shutting down your laptop anyway? Can't it sleep/hibernate?
 
Yeah, now I mostly just pick hybrid sleep. Hybernating is usually faster than updating.
 
anyway, I'm still having trouble seeing how that is a design flaw of Windows
 
@jalf I'm a trouble person! If I pick sleep, I get in the habit of doing it all the time, and then the updates are never installed!
 
Updates are hardly ever needed.
 
user142019
true
 
12:08 PM
Yeah right.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes you can install the updates while your computer is running. Don't need to postpone it to shutdown
@IneedHelp sure, if you want to host a botnet all of your own
 
@jalf true, I share this opinion
 
Don't complain when you have to reinstall.
 
Linux kernels can theoretically be "spliced" or whatever to update part of the running code
I don't think it was safe enough for general use though
 
user142019
3 minutes remaining… If my browser crashes now I'm screwed to death.
 
sbi
12:10 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes In XP? I think you can do this by pressing the Shift key when asked whether you want to shutdown/restart/blah.
 
@rubenvb I'd rather reboot, really.
Hotpatching the kernel sounds dangerous somehow.
@sbi Oh, you can?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes well it's either that or no rebootless kernel updates :)
 
Lemme try on 7.
Wait, I need pending updates to try that.
@rubenvb I don't mind rebooting for kernel updates.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes I haven't tried that on Win7. But then I only ever hibernate my machine, except for the updates.
 
@sbi hibernate is really the shizzle.
 
12:12 PM
Hybrid sleep is cooler.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes how does that work?
how do I try that?
 
sbi
I have it set to "download, but notify before installing." Sometimes it keeps me nagging about pending updates for days, but I don#t feel like rebooting, so I out off installing the updates.
 
user142019
Oh yeah installing Windows 8
 
@rubenvb It does all the hybernation work but afterwards it enters sleep instead of shutting down.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes But Win7 doesn't do that, does it? I think I OSX does, though.
 
12:14 PM
If power dies for some reason, it's hybernated. If there's still power, it's a simple resume when you come back.
@sbi Yes, it does.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes How do I do that?
 
But you need to enable it somewhere. Lemme check.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes kexec?
 
@sbi Power Options > Edit Plan Settings > Advanced Power Settings > Sleep > Allow hybrid sleep > On
 
@IneedHelp Not updating your OS is stupid.
 
12:17 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes well, I guess I'm using that. Anything else special needed to use it?
 
Or any software, really.
 
@rubenvb Nope.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Thanks! I'll try this.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes hmmm, then there must be some driver issue making it not work; my laptop physically turns off (no blinking power button like in sleep mode). Not that I care much, normal hibernate is awesome as it is :)
 
Sleeping after hibernation sounds silly.
You get the hit of dumping the RAM and no power saving over regular sleep.
 
sbi
12:19 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Ok, so I have now enabled that. It doesn't offer it in the shutdown options, though. Do I now need to reboot? :(
 
@sbi It's "Sleep".
From Reddit, Pharma company runs illegal trials on human babies in Argentina, kills them: http://www.buenosairesherald.com/article/88922/gsk-lab-fined-over-vaccine-tests-that-killed-14--babies
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Oh, I don't have the hibernate option anymore. It's only the "Save Energy" (what it is called on my German OS). Is that it?
 
user142019
Copying Windows Files (0%) … fml
 
@sbi Possibly.
@sbi Would be nice if it was a separate option, but it's Windows...
> We have a challenging and inspiring mission to improve the quality of human life by enabling people to do more, feel better and live longer.
Yeah, right.
Assholes.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes er, did you see Vista's shutdown options?
 
12:25 PM
@jalf Didn't use Vista much.
 
Well, it had everything "as a separate option", and then people hated that and said "but it's Windows..."
and no one could figure out which option to use
 
@jalf Did you see the trouble you need to go through to enable this? I don't think it would hurt.
 
 
10 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@sbi Power Options > Edit Plan Settings > Advanced Power Settings > Sleep > Allow hybrid sleep > On
 
@WTP ^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
12:27 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes except that it's on by default on powersaver plan
 
Oh, didn't know that.
 
oh, and on balanced too, apparently
huh, it's even enabled on high performance plan here
 
Ok, that totally doesn't sound like the defaults.
 
Dunno if that's just some quirk of my computer. I haven't changed the setting before though
@RMartinhoFernandes if I had to guess, high performance just changes the threshold for when it sleeps (or sets it to "never"), but still leaves the hybrid sleep option enabled
so that if you put it to sleep anyway, it'll use that
since there's little reason not to
 
XKCD
 
12:30 PM
@jalf Well, I distinctly remember having to set it myself (and @sbi just did too) so I don't know what's going on.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes this is on a desktop computer, even, so if anything, I'd expect it to have very conservative power-saving settings
and it's only a few months old, and I'm the only one who's used it, so I'm pretty certain I've never fiddled with the setting
 
I always thought it counted as a power user feature, and hence my desire for being lax on "keeping the UI simple".
But apparently it's not as clear cut as I thought.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes might be an update at some point, perhaps? Maybe they initially didn't trust the feature enough to enable it by default, and then they changed the default at some point?
 
Oh, possible.
 
I don't have it enabled.
 
12:32 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes dunno, isn't it basically just a "better sleep"? Don't think it's something specific to power users
but yeah dunno
 
I still don't know why would you want to do that.
 
@jalf It's for power users because it takes more then two clicks to enable :)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes from Microsoft's point of view, I mean. ;) As in, why shouldn't it simply replace "normal" sleep mode?
 
Muggles don't go around poking stuff they don't know. False.
4
 
@RMartinhoFernandes yeah, the difference is that they don't read the errors they get afterwards
"then I got an error which said something...."
 
12:34 PM
"Error: You're stupid."
 
@jalf Ha, that is wishful thinking. It's more along the lines of "doesn't work" or something even less descriptive.
Like "I opened Word, and then I forgot to save, but it asked me to save when I closed. But now half the screen is grey."
Can you figure that one out?
 
is the reason the fixed-width integer types are optional the fact that there might be implementations that aren't 8-16-32-64-128-bit, but 36-bit or 27-bit?
 
Yes.
Even just being 16-bit would preclude int8_t.
 
to have C++ in its current state work on quantum computers I guess
 
@RMartinhoFernandes can still be emulated
just like int64_t is emulated on x86 :)
 
12:41 PM
@jalf No, you can't have a type whose size is exactly 8 bits.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes why not?
 
why does preclude mean the same thing as exclude?
 
@jalf What's sizeof(it)?
@rubenvb I think so.
int_least8_t is feasible, but not int8_t.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes oh, you're assuming @rubenvb was talking about byte sizes?
I just figured it was register width
 
@RMartinhoFernandes isn't char 8 bits wide on x86*?
 
12:43 PM
a 16-bit architecture usually has 8-bit bytes still, so even if it doesn't have 8-bit arithmetic instructions, it can handle an int8_t without too much trouble
 
@jalf Oh, I thought "the fixed-width integer types" meant int8_t and friends.
 
but yeah, if a byte is 16 bits, you're in trouble
 
@RMartinhoFernandes that's what I meant.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes yeah
but I mean, why would a 16-bit architecture preclude you from having an int8_t of exactly 8 bit?
 
Because sizeof(int8_t) * CHAR_BIT isn't 8?
 
12:44 PM
but why wouldn't it be?
unless you're reading "16-bit architecture" as "an architecture with 16-bits per byte"
 
@RMartinhoFernandes but surely sizeof(char)*CHAR_BIT is 8, so typedef char int8_t; would do the trick, right?
 
@jalf Oh, sorry, I meant a machine where CHAR_BIT is 16.
 
yeah, that's what I figured. But that's not how I understood @rubenvb
 
Alf once mentioned TI DSPs and I'm holding on to them :)
 
CONFUZZLEMENT!!!!
 
12:46 PM
pretty sure he was jsut talking about a CPU with 16-bit registers/bus width
 
@rubenvb If CHAR_BIT is 8, yes.
 
@jalf you understand me correctly.
 
@jalf No, he mentioned it specifically as an example where you have 16-bits per byte.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes not that I saw
I think you might have misread, or mentally inserted a "byte" somewhere?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes My wording was ambiguous
 
12:47 PM
DAmmit, what massive confusion is going on here.
 
He's talking about fixed-width types.
 
> there might be implementations that aren't 8-16-32-64-128-bit, but 36-bit or 27-bit?
 
you're both kind of correct.
 
there's no "byte" in there
but yeah, is a bit ambiguous
 
I meant the last two as a 36-bit and 27-bit byte
the first ones I meant as "classical x86"-related
sorry
 
12:48 PM
*mindblown*
I don't think there's ever been a 36-bit-per-byte architecture (someone prove me wrong)
 
You can NOT make this s**t up: RT @ashokbanker: Anti-Obama activists claim US President was sent to Mars by CIA. http://bit.ly/z1RZe3
Awesome.
 
think it was more like 6/7/10/maybe 16 bits per byte
 
@jalf Some PDP?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes no clue
 
The PDP-10 had 36-bit words, but 6-bit characters.
You can't do C++11 on it without emulation.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes yeah, 36-bit words sounds (slightly) more sane
than 36-bit bytes
 
No, wait, it's weirder.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes because of the 6-bit characters?
 
oh wait
> Some aspects of the instruction set are unique, most notably the "byte" instructions, which operated on bit fields of any size from 1 to 36 bits inclusive according to the general definition of a byte as a contiguous sequence of a fixed number of bits.
 
12:51 PM
The PDP-10 had 36-bit words, but 7-bit characters + 1 unused.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes why would c++ need emulation?
 
@rubenvb Yes, C++11 requires char to be able to hold a UTF-8 code unit.
You can't put that on a 7-bit character, so an implementation would have to fake it with two bytes.
 
ok.
 
@jalf Those days were pure madness.
You can NOT make this s**t up: RT @ashokbanker: Anti-Obama activists claim US President was sent to Mars by CIA. http://bit.ly/z1RZe3
Awesome.
> White House Denies CIA Teleported Obama to Mars
 
@RMartinhoFernandes does not compute
how can you be anti someone who apparently has interplanetary travel technology?
3
 
12:55 PM
@jalf Simple. You have time-travel technology.
> That’s the assertion, at least, of a pair of self-proclaimed time-traveling, universe-exploring government agents.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes space and time is one and the same. Haven't you read Einstein?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes yeah, but even then, how can it be a bad thing?
 
@rubenvb No, not really. They are related, but the dimensions of space are not one and the same with the dimension of time. They're four.
 
@rubenvb I've read it. Einstein's wrong! It's just a conspiracy by the Russians to keep timetravel ability from the Americans
@Pubby Much more scandalous IYAM
 
> It used to be perfectly usable at 1200 baud. But these days you can't use the Web at 2400 baud because the ads are 24KB.
 
1:23 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes I thought robots were programmed to think what they were programmed to think about?
 
1:48 PM
lol: MinGW and GNU people going at it about the naming of win32: sourceforge.net/mailarchive/…
 
How to make decision at compile time according to bool value whether to make a function call or not?
for example:
template<typename T, typename...V> void foo(T tt, V...vv)
{
    std::cout<<sizeof...(V);
}
template<typename...T> void bar(T...v)
{
   if(sizeof...(T)>5) foo(v...); //this is where I'm stuck
}
 
@MrAnubis I don't think you can at compile-time.
 
@Maxpm why not? SFINAE --> enable_if
 
@sehe True.
 
@sehe can you please edit my example with enable_if?
 
2:01 PM
@MrAnubis That said, I'd say the sample doesn't require it.
 
@sehe yes , right :)
 
On template instantiation sizeof...(T) is a constexpr; the compiler can optimize the conditional away since the condition expression is a constant true or false
Problem solved?
 
@sehe no , but looking at enable_if
that doesn't works : typename std::enable_if<(sizeof...(T)>0),foo>::type(); // since T = foo which is variadic functional template
well I think I am doing the whole thing wrong :(
 
give me an interesting question to think about
 
Say I'd like to write my own "Standard Library", including most of what C++ already has, but also other things like proper unicode support and filesystem support, where would be the best place to start (apart from reading a book)? Threads?
I'd have all language features available, but not one bit of the Standard Library.
 
2:15 PM
writing a standard library without using the std is suicide
 
@Pubby Qt does it, wxWidgets does it, Ultimate++ does it, Ace does it, etc...
 
user142019
Mmm… I do link to libboost_serialization.dylib but I'm still getting three "Undefined symbol for architecture x86_64" errors.
 
@sehe woow that worked, I changed the simple functions to functor
 
@rubenvb Those aren't really "standard" libraries. They started with a different goal in mind.
 
user142019
If you want to add unicode support, threading and filesystem support etc… why not just write your own library? No need to rewrite all the containers and utilities and such.
 
2:26 PM
@WTP well, for one, std::string sucks ass.
 
user142019
Why?
 
well, it's just a bloated std::vector<char>.
 
user142019
not really…
 
std::string::length doesn't even return the length of the character string, it returns the same value as std::string::size.
most member functions are already in <algorithm> as free functions, etc...
 
user142019
then write a function which does or subclass std::basic_string.
 
2:33 PM
@WTP lots of reasons not to. One obvious one being basic_string doesn't have virtual functions of eg the abovementioned functions.
 
I wonder how people can write programs with that std::string
 
could I use list-initialization without std::initializer_list?
 
damn! meld is a life-saver

http://meld.sourceforge.net/meld_file1.png
I waited too long since my last commit - a combination of git and meld (with its directory-diff feature) saved me...
 
3:19 PM
@rubenvb what is it that you'd like to do?
 
@refp instantiate a custom non-std class or type or array of type without using the std::initializer_list class. I know there's some compiler-magic going on, but I'm not sure how tightly tied to the Library implementation or API this is.
 
@kfmfe04 or, really, any merge editor (gvim, kdiff3, wiggle, even just plain notepad etc.) TortoiseGit comes with a nice merge editor (probably 'borrowed' from another project, but I'm not aware of it's proper name)
@kfmfe04 What I'm saying is: source control saved you. Not meld
 
3:48 PM
no argument from me that SCM helps - having a nice merge tool like meld in combination with git is even better - I had something like 40 files that could have caused the crash.

Luckily, I had a clean version checked in (clears unit-tests - SCM without unit-testing is also not quite as effective). Yes, I could've used notepad instead of meld, but it probably would have taken me a day instead of 30min.
 
@rubenvb You can hack something up with variadic templates. Not quite the same, but close.
 
What's meld?
Just visual diff?
 
@sehe It's TortoiseMerge, originated from TortoiseSvn.
 
Also, vim people, have you seen Threesome?
 

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