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2:12 PM
erm, why is the room description semi censored?
is Brainfuck really that bad a language; or is this in reference to people moaning about the use of the word fuck?
 
@thecoshman it's not the word fuck that is censored. It's Bra*n. The word Bra*n reminds us of what most people in this room do not possess
 
@IntermediateHacker I am trying so hard to think of a word that could stand for other then the obvious...
seriously... the only two words I can find that match the pattern "bra*n" are brain and brawn ¬_¬
 
@thecoshman if you say the uncensored version of Bra*n (without *) ever again, I will flag you.
 
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach And? Did you get the book?
 
lol
 
2:25 PM
@IntermediateHacker ಠ_ಠ
@sbi redditors!
 
I didn't know @CatPlusPlus was so famous.
 
damn
I'm trying to write a y-combinator in C++ and I forgot how
 
sbi
@DebbieMoans erm, just read my tweet. I'm not a creep honest and if anything have a foot anti-fetish. I'm shutting up now
Haha!
 
a y-combinator you say, sounds funky
@sbi ahem...
 
Y u no y-combinator.
 
2:28 PM
is any one here not a regular on reddit?
 
Y the y-combinator?
@thecoshman me! reddit is a waste of time.
 
@IntermediateHacker B...
R...
A...
I...
 
Someone finally upvoted my question!!!
 
N...
 
@thecoshman stop mentioning the thing I do not have. :(
 
2:31 PM
@IntermediateHacker huh?
 
sbi
@thecoshman Me.
 
sorry is the first time I'm using the chat
 
sbi
@Dead: What does it take to move msgs to the bin? I seem to be unable to do this.
 
click the "room" button next to the info buttion
then message admin
then select messages, then relocate
you have to be a Bin owner to move messages there, though
 
sbi
@DeadMG Ah, Ok. That I'm not, I think.
At least, it doesn't find me the bin room:
 
2:36 PM
@sbi make sbi's bin?
 
go to the Bin room and request ownership
I can grant it to you since Martinho granted it to me
 
or that :P
 
sbi
@DeadMG How do I request ownership?
@DeadMG Oh, that might be helpful!
 
I think in the area where you enter messages, it says you can't because you have no ownership, and request by pushing this hyperlink
 
sbi
@DeadMG Ok, done.
 
2:39 PM
done
try now
 
@sbi I was going to state my assumption that you where not
 
sbi
6 messages moved to bin
@DeadMG Thanks!
 
no probs
 
sbi
@andrea Then you might want to read the newbie hints, linked from the right-hand panel.
 
If only the newbie hints explained how to move messages to bin ;)
 
sbi
2:42 PM
@Pubby You need to be a room owner here and there in order to do that.
 
ok I will, sorry but really usually I wait for the answer but this time I'm quite in hurry with that :( sorry again
 
I think I should take some of my own medicine and write some units tests ¬_¬ but that means I am going to need to find out some correct matrix maths first :(
 
sbi
@andrea The problem was that you posted something (WinForms) most users here are totally uninterested in, and few know anything about. And that atop of drive-by linking.
 
@andrea, you should use Invoke, just find right delegate and use gcnew to create it
 
find the right delegate... that's the point.. I'm new to that, previously I have developping c++ Console appligation without delegate, so I'm new to them
 
2:56 PM
read MSDN, I believe there are examples
 
@andrea There are no delegates in C++. You are using C++/CLI.
it is a rarely used hybrid with no function except to interoperate between C# and native C++.
 
@DeadMG C++.# erm... typo?
 
yeah
 
@sbi Don't know what the most surprising element is. Contenders: I'm not a creep (huh?) honest (or was it... I'm not ...honest?) But, I decided the thing that gave it away as blatant sarcasm was I'm shutting up now
 
man, what is it with these GC-ravers on Programmers?
he says you can't Y-combine in C++ without memory leaks, I show him something, and he says it's because I used int as a parameter
no, you muppet, I'd do it with any T... args and any Ret return
 
2:59 PM
@DeadMG link?
 
and then I do it with absolutely no dynamic allocation whatsoever
3
A: What are the complexities of memory-unmanaged programming?

DeadMGConsidering a non-garbage-collected memory management technique from an equivalent era as the garbage collectors in use in current popular systems, such as C++'s RAII. Given this approach, then the cost of not using automated garbage collection is minimal, and GC introduces plenty of it's own pro...

look in the comments
 
@DeadMG is there a qay to avoid delegates? if I just want to change a property of a form control in a new thread?
 
how the hell would I know?
just to be certain
map and fold == std::transform and std::accumulate, right?
 
I wish TMP had a GC
 
TMP has way more problems than not being able to GC
like not being able to allocate.. anything
 
3:03 PM
??
You can allocate, just not free
 
no such thing as template<std::set<int> x>
even MPL's containers are only immutable, not fully mutable
 
I wouldn't say immutable means no allocations
 
@DeadMG Yes.
 
awesome
 
What use would a GC be to TMP?
Also, nothing forbids a compiler from GCing TMP.
 
3:07 PM
also
I did a better ycombine than you and I had previously
one with no dynamic allocation whatsoever
I are teh prouds
 
@RMartinhoFernandes It would make the performance not suck
 
now that guy wants me to do map, fold, etc
remember those experiments I did with LINQ that lead to my expression template library?
 
@Pubby Are you sure memory allocation is the bottleneck in compilation?
 
easy as mmmm.... pie
 
3:09 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes I'm not sure, then again I don't know how to profile things
 
user784668
@RMartinhoFernandes I highly doubt it is.
 
it's incredibly unlikely that it is
 
@DeadMG I thought accumulate was reduce?
 
no idea
 
3:12 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Have you ever used Alex/Happy generators?
 
I'm not familiar with the algorithms section, in general, so I wouldn't know
 
@KerrekSB And that's fold.
Everyone likes to call it something else.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Oh. Why so many names :-)
 
template<typename F> class map_iterator {
    F f;
    Iterator i;
    auto operator*() -> decltype(f(*i))
 
@Pubby Nope. I looked into Happy once, but went with Parsec anyway.
 
3:13 PM
this is invalid, right?
 
I never understood why it's called "reduce" until a short while ago when someone explained something unrelated.
And now I already forgot it again.
 
you can't use member variables in the return type specification
 
@DeadMG Needs declvals.
 
yeah
 
3:14 PM
fuck that shit, I guess
can I just return a new container?
and still have it qualify as map?
go go captain implicit conversion
 
@CatPlusPlus Hm, maybe because C++ can be learnt, while equations need to be understood? There's no inherent reason why C++ is the way it is, so there's ultimately nothing deep about it.
 
sure there is a reason
 
@KerrekSB Oh, trust me, there's a lot of deep shit about C++.
 
it had to be C, and then it had to do more within those restraints
 
3:17 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Nothing quite as deep as the fundamental theorem of algebra, though :-)
 
@KerrekSB I'm not entirely certain but I think it can also go by catamorphism. I'd have to think a bit to see if a cata is more general than a fold or if they're the same.
 
IME, you have to remember the right equation, use it on the test and then you can forget it.
 
And I'm a bit lazy right now.
 
@CatPlusPlus That would explain your frustration with equations :-)
 
cock
I've forgotten how my original LINQ-like library worked
 
3:18 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Why is it called "reduce", though?
 
Oh, look, it's the Tourette dog.
 
@KerrekSB Because it reduces the input?
 
I think it was something to do with the fact that you can break up the range into subranges and apply the same operation to the result of the reduce of the subranges...
 
AHAHAHAHAHAHA
> @DeadMG, it is not a COMBINATOR at all, and it does not produce a closure. I do not care about the output, I'm only interested in the semantics. You failed to prove that a low level language is capable if implementing a semantics I've requested, which in turn proves that I'm right. – SK-logic 6 mins ago
 
@KerrekSB That's 'cause I'm bored to death.
 
3:19 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes But that's really vague -- lots of things reduce all sorts of things. malloc reduces free memory.
 
I'd rather be watching something fun right now.
 
Is there any use to combinators in C++?
 
@CatPlusPlus Who wouldn't :-)
 
But noo, there must be a test I'll fail anyway.
 
3:21 PM
@CatPlusPlus Why would you want to fail?
 
I'm this close to just quitting on that stupid degree.
 
@Pubby What's a combinator?
To me it's anything that acts as glue between programs/functions.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes fixed-point combinator
 
It's all just boredom and tests.
 
@Pubby Ah, those aren't that useful in most functional languages either.
 
3:23 PM
what degree are you on CatPlusPlus?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yeah, but at least they can be useful. I'm just trying to think of a place in C++ where they could actually be helpful
 
apparently the functional people like them
 
@Pubby I don't think they can be more useful than they can in C++.
In Haskell, fix is pretty much just a curiosity. But there's a monadic version, mfix (which is not quite the same) that is useful to implement the mdo syntax.
 
CS, I guess.
 
Wasn't Fred using fix a while ago?
 
3:26 PM
He was just trying to understand it.
 
To date, I've yet to learn anything that would have a practical value.
That I didn't learn on my own.
 
@CatPlusPlus how do you determine that? Unless you have a time machine, it's kind of tricky to determine what you would have learned on your own if you hadn't been a CS student
 
I know what I know, and I know what's been told on lectures and such.
 
but if you hadn't attended those lectures, been faced with those tests, and spent time around those CS people, you have no way of determining what you would have learned
 
Well, maybe I learnt more Java than I would have otherwise. I don't count that as a plus.
 
3:31 PM
What classes did you take?
 
Also, when I was in 6th grade, half of my class figured that "I don't need to learn equations. it has no practical value". It's a bit of a fallacy to let the student decide what has, and doesn't have, practical value
 
I prefer to learn in JIT mode.
My memory is bad enough I won't remember half of these things in 2 years anyway.
 
user784668
Lazily evaluated learning?
 
Yeah. Learn-by-need.
 
@CatPlusPlus oh, so not only do you know what you would have learned if your life had been different. You also know what you'll remember 2 years from now? ;)
 
3:33 PM
Hahaha.
 
user784668
So you can claim you know everything.
 
@jalf I know I can barely remember stuff from last semester.
 
Woudl it be wrong to assume that you're a time lord?
and if so, can I have a go in your TARDIS?
 
@jalf I know that virtually everything I learned in (British high school) was worthless, and I see no reason to conclude that my degree is any different.
I also know that, effectively, it isn't even in the same damn field as what I intend to do with my life
 
@CatPlusPlus what stuff? Most knowledge has a way of seeping in unnoticed. How many drivers can explicitly remember specifics from their driving lessons?
 
3:34 PM
@jalf You're not a hot chick, so no.
@jalf I don't know, I don't remember it. :P
 
@CatPlusPlus so that was worthless too, then?
or maybe it's possible to learn something from an experience, even if you forget the specifics
 
@jalf I can't remember specifics from driving lessons, because my driving lessons had no specifics :(
 
maybe you learned something in the last semester, but you just don't explicitly think of it as "something I learned last semester"
so when you query for "things I learned last semester", the empty set is returned ;)
 
I don't remember a thing from discrete maths, for one, except for bits about relations which I rehashed last week for logic test.
Analysis, only how to do definite integrals.
 
@CatPlusPlus What's the degree in?
 
3:37 PM
BREAKING: User publishes 10-paragraph essay to explain why he has no time to report a bug.
 
Computer systems arch, the things I remember I learnt a long time ago. Maybe some MIPS assembly, but that's nigh useless.
Operating systems, some random scheduling algorithms.
 
Anyway, I'm sure there are truly worthless degree programs, but (1) I'd never trust the student to determine whether what he's learning is valuable, because students have a long, proud track record of misjudging precisely that, and (2) simply being enrolled at university, having to pass tests, and attending lectures tends to make you learn things on your own, things that the lecturer didn't mention, but which you'd never have learned on your own if you hadn't been a student
2
 
@KerrekSB Boredom.
I'm here for discounts and money, really.
 
@jalf I'd rather not trust the student nor the lecturer and just get cracking and find out.
 
and (3) In every field, and at every level of school, whether it's a prestigious university or 3rd grade, you learn things without realizing it, and if you ask yourself "am I learning anything useful", the answer will always seem like a "no". You'll only get a valid answer to the question years later, when it's no longer relevant. ;)
 
3:40 PM
I'm perfectly fine with not contributing to society in any significant way.
Meh.
 
@CatPlusPlus assembly is useless? Sure, if optimization is useless
 
Assembly is not optimisation, and I qualified that with MIPS, didn't I.
 
No, but assembly is a prerequisite for understanding what's happening in your code, and that's pretty vital if you intend to be good at optimization
 
user784668
@CatPlusPlus sometimes it is.
 
whether it's MIPS, x86 or some obscure ISA that hasn't been relevant for the past 30 years is less relevant
 
3:43 PM
I think that it is fairly important to learn the actual assembly language you're using
 
New students taking my degree will learn Y86 which is not even real (as in, there's no physical machine).
 
Architecture details are important for optimising, yes.
But assembly doesn't reflect how CPU works.
Well, not 1:1, at least.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes so? As long as it resembles a real assembly language, it's still relevant. And even if it isn't, how does that invalidate what you learned?
 
@jalf Hey, I'm trying to help you.
 
user784668
@RMartinhoFernandes Y86? What's that?
 
3:44 PM
Knowing how some ARM CPU works is useless when you're trying to optimise for x86.
 
@CatPlusPlus of course not. But it's the only authoritative source for what your code actually does
 
Despite assembly looking basically the same.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes oh right :)
 
user784668
@RMartinhoFernandes Oh wait, googling gives some results.
 
@CatPlusPlus Not really. I've found it very useful.
 
user784668
3:45 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes it's bastardized x86, right?
 
@Fanael It's a highly simplified variant of x86 for teaching.
@Fanael Yes, that.
 
You can bastardise x86?
 
Sounds like the problem isn't that you haven't learned anything useful, but that you are incapable of applying what you learn.
which is more a problem with you than your degree
 
IOW, you suck. :P
 
Oh, I know that.
 
3:46 PM
@jalf That's not necessarily true. It might just be that there is no way to apply it.
 
Assembly. Apply directly to the forehead.
 
And learning different assembly languages is fun.
 
@DeadMG But there is. It's trivially true that there are ways to apply knowledge of assembly language
 
In the same way bathing in acid is fun.
 
@CatPlusPlus maybe you should become a baker or something
 
3:48 PM
@jalf Maybe once I get past all the algorithmic, memory, and concurrency optimizations?
 
you don't sound like you enjoy programming much
 
which is pretty damn unlikely
 
I can't cook, either.
 
professional slacker then?
 
I'd be perfectly fine doing absolutely nothing for the next 60 years or so.
But, alas, I need the money for food, electricity and Internet.
 
3:49 PM
And water.
 
@DeadMG many of those optimizations depends on being able to look at your code and understanding precisely what it does. Which may involve looking at the asm :)
 
@jalf It's simpler to just take a guess.
 
it may do, but I doubt it would be required
 
@DeadMG define "required". When is optimization ever "required"?
 
When this universe is not enough?
 
3:51 PM
well, there's a reason that MSVC x64 doesn't support inline assembly, and it's because there's little reason to use it instead of, say, a compiler intrinsic
 
The question was whether the knowledge was useful, not whether you can live without it.
 
@sbi No, they didn't have it. I got a new one by Reynolds instead. Plus a pretty advanced chicken-based meal at my fav cafe. I'm not sure what the slices of orange were for.
 
Inline assembly is not portable.
 
I mean, obviously you need it to implement a compiler
but more importantly, assembly is the kind of thing where I'd study it as a special-purpose "when I need it" kind of thing, not as a general-purpose thing
 
@DeadMG No, the reason is that (1) the MSVC team is living in a delusional dream world, (2) when people need to write assembly, they can still do it in a separate file, and (3) that is about writing asm, not reading it, which is much more commonly useful
 
3:52 PM
well, it's true that I simply assumed that they had a similar view point :P
 
user784668
@DeadMG you don't, you can emit C. Or LLVM IR. Or something.
 
@Fanael In this case, LLVM or the C compiler counts as the compiler.
 
@DeadMG It's been very useful to me. But then we're back to the point that it's not about whether what they taught you is useful, but whether you, yourself, are capable of applying what you know
 
Is it weird that I'm putting my exception-throwing code in its own function?
 
3:53 PM
@Maxpm depends on what you mean, and how you're doing it
 
waldemars.no <- it's right up the street
 
@Maxpm depends
 
or, equally arguably, you have a rare niche which requires more of it than the general case
 
Well, let's say I have a vector-like data structure.
I would check for valid indices inside set() and get() member functions.
 
@DeadMG Only if you think of C++ as a rare niche.
 
3:54 PM
In general, you should try to make the top of the callstack the point where the exception condition occurs.
 
If the index is invalid, I'd throw an exception.
 
Or debugging.
 
@Maxpm Don't catch those.
 
Why do you have set and get member functions?
 
Invalid indices sounds like a bug.
 
3:55 PM
@CatPlusPlus which would mean, don't throw an exception from a separate function, throw it from where it happens
 
And you don't catch bugs.
 
I noticed I throw the exact same exception a lot for the exact same reasons, so I figured I'd put it inside a void throwIndexException().
 
@Maxpm then throw if you must from with in those exception
 
well, it's true that I have used the disassembler to debug and such
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I'm not catching exceptions. I'm the one writing the class.
 
3:56 PM
but I've never needed any assembly studies to perform that function
 
I have had several situations where the only way I could debug something was by reading and understanding assembly language. Job security, since most youngsters can't do it any more. :-)
 
@Maxpm Oh, you said exception-throwing. For some reason I read exception-handling.
 
user784668
@Maxpm Then, you should use something else instead of exceptions. Like assertions.
 
I guess it's the lack of food.
 
@DeadMG you needed to be able to read assembly. Obviously, where you learned it from is less significant. But it strongly implies that "learning some assembly is useful", which was my claim
 
3:57 PM
@Fanael not so quick there
 
I never made the claim that learning assembly wasn't useful
I'm making the claim that explicitly studying it as a degree topic isn't useful
 
Then why the heck were you guys arguing not against each other?
 
@Fanael Mmh. So something like assert(isValidIndex(index));.
 
assertions should be used to check for things that should not happen. Exceptions are for things that could happen, but you hope won't
well, you hope your assertions never fail either
 
@DeadMG so why did you object to my claim that if you've learned asm as part of your studies, then the claim that you have learned nothnig useful is false?
 
3:58 PM
@thecoshman Invalid indices sounds like the former.
 
user784668
@thecoshman exactly; invalid index almost always is a bug.
 
because if I crack out my disassembler and it contains x86 assembly, then I need to know x86 assembly, and all the MIPS assembly I've done isn't going to help
and if I'm a C# programmer and I ildasm something, then I'm going to need to know CLI, not x86 or JVM
 
@DeadMG But it's easier to get it if you had contact with some other asm before.
 
you can't teach people "some" assembly, they need the specific assembly that they're using
 

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