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4:00 PM
Or something like that, haven't done that in a while.
 
@StackedCrooked That sounds redundant.
 
@CatPlusPlus yep. Now factor in that you needed to have two separate executables available (svnadmin and svn), which aren't automatically both available
 
@MartinhoFernandes I mean rsync to sync a local folder with dropbox, instead of coding directly on dropbox.
 
on windows, they usually have nothing to do with each others, as most svn clients don't give you any tools to create or manage the repository
compare that to the simple bzr/hg/git init
 
TortoiseSVN can create repos, too. :P
 
4:02 PM
What? All the svn clients I've seen in Windows had both svn and svnadmin.
 
@CatPlusPlus the UI for doing so was a pain last I checked :p
 
It doesn't have any UI, really, just requires an empty directory.
 
but yeah, I'll admit it's been a while since I've had to use svn
 
RMB > TortoiseSVN > Create repo here.
 
Meh, VCS UIs.
 
4:03 PM
@MartinhoFernandes TortoiseHg is awesome.
 
@CatPlusPlus I know.
I have that open right now.
 
but my problem with it is that it's a completely separate workflow. I have to both set up the server repo somewhere using one tool, and check it out somewhere else using another tool
 
Alongside with PowerShell which I end up using most of the time.
 
that mental overhead is enough that I wouldn't bother setting up a repo for simple throwaway code
 
I use the UI for visualization.
 
4:04 PM
with bzr (or another dvcs), that barrier is gone
 
maybe I should just get a relatively cheap web server
 
Or use bitbucket.
It's relatively cheap: free.
 
For VCS? Bitbucket has unlimited repos for free.
 
And private ones too.
 
And for students, even unlimited private users for free AFAIR.
 
4:11 PM
uh
check out bitbucket.com
 
oh
 
why do you need a server at all? If it's just for your everyday code, you can just keep it in a local repo
2
 
Backupsssss.
 
Xeo
Get DropBox, get some friends, and put your repos on the free 8gig
 
4:12 PM
what's the point of having a source control repo on my hard drive, instead of ... keeping my code on my hard drive?
 
History.
 
@DeadMG keeps history, and allows you the freedom to branch/merge/revert/whatever
 
No need for Dropbox, bitbucket is far superior.
 
An external HDD + backup software can take care of backups btw.
 
Xeo
Or that, whatever
 
4:13 PM
sure, once you need backups, put it on a server as well, but we were talking about very low-value throwaway code
well, I guess you should put it on a server before you need backups... ;)
 
What? You do backups before things blow up? How ridiculous that is.
 
well the other thing is, if I had a low-rent server, I could have a proper site for my blog instead of the blogger site
and I wouldn't have to bring my hard drive home on the train with me
 
@DeadMG I have a SliceHost for this.
 
yeah, that's true :)
 
But it's in US so the ping is a little high.
 
4:16 PM
so how much does some low-grade web hosting cost these days?
 
around $20/month
 
:o
can get it much cheaper than that afaik
I was gonna say 5-10
 
$20 for VPS. I'm not sure about web hosting though.
 
I use dreamhost, for $9/month
why would you need VPS for hosting a blog and a few backup files?
 
Shared web hosting is nigh useless. I couldn't live without my precious dedicated server. <3
 
4:18 PM
@CatPlusPlus for your... blog... and hg repository?
/me happy with shared hosting for that kind of stuff
 
Actually, both my blog and repos are elsewhere.
But Buildbot and stuff.
 
I was experimenting setting up a ncurses based torrent client on my VPS. I got download speeds at 4 MB/s :) Now the problem is that the downloaded files aren't on my PC.
 
Minecraft server when it's needed.
 
ah
 
Howdy y'all
 
4:22 PM
the thing is
if I were to move my blog, the blogger one has features I'd have to do myself
 
Anyone here use Embacadero C++ Builder? (Formerly Borland C++ Builder) ?
 
@DeadMG can't you use blogger hosted on your own domain?
 
no idea
 
which features btw?
 
well, the stats ones, for example, I'd have no idea
 
4:25 PM
wordpress (and probably every other blogging software) has a google analytics plugin you just install
 
honestly? I didn't shop around
 
well, considering how widely used stuff like wordpress is, I'd imagine some silly php programmer somewhere wrote whatever plugins are needed :)
 
lol
 
at least when I set mine up, it didn't take more than a few minutes to find what I needed
markdown syntax, code snippets and google analytics, I think were the main ones.
 
it's not in ASP.NET?
 
4:30 PM
nah
ASP hosting is generally more expensive
and since I wasn't planning on actually writing any web code, I didn't really need it
PHP code is ok, as long as I don't have to write it or look at it
If I really find myself needing to do any web dev, dreamhost supports ruby as well
 
true enough
hmmm
9 dollars a month
I wonder how much that it is in real money?
£5.60, apparently
 
can probably find it cheaper, btw. I went with dreamhost because they offer a few nice extras like ruby and direct ssh access
 
I could save that by not buying a few chocolate bars
 
it's mainly ssh that clinched it
 
I don't even know what SSH is
 
4:36 PM
secure shell. Basically, command line access to the server
 
remote console access over a secure connection
 
so you can pretty much install software freely on it, and do whatever other fiddling and configuration you might need
 
hmmm
apparently, Microsoft want to link me to some Irish company that will host an ASP.NET 4 server for £3 a month
although, Wordpress is in PHP
 
yeah, I'm not sure what your options are on ASP
I suspect it's a lot more limited
 
the thing is
 
4:43 PM
in terms of free options with community support, anyway
 
I'd much rather have an ASP server, because then, if I wanted to do some web programming, I'd be much more set
 
that's true
 
There's Subtext.
It's maintained by Phil Haack, one of the authors of ASP.NET MVC.
 
should also consider what else you'll want to install on it, of course (and whether the host gives you access to doing that at all)
In my experience, setting up vcs servers on Windows (and making them accessible remotely) is generally a pain
 
well
apparently, this specific host offers something called IIS Remote? sounds like remote access to me
 
4:48 PM
probably :D
 
I think that's just IIS administration.
That doesn't help a lot setting up a VCS server.
 
ok
how about "Web Deploy"?
 
I'd guess it's just for deploying websites
 
IIS Web application deployment stuff.
 
for windows, I'd assume you'd need remote desktop access
 
4:52 PM
maybe I should just use bitbucket
blogger seems like a fine enough host right now
 
you could probably just buy a domain, and then set it up to point to your blogger account, even :)
without dedicated hosting
 
Yeah, that's possible.
And easy to set up.
You can use custom domains with bitbucket repos, too.
 
ok
so how well does Mercurial integrate with Visual Studio?
 
Pretty sweet.
The HgScc plugin is nice.
 
ok
cause I wouldn't want to have this source control malarky and then spend my life crapping around with it
 
5:00 PM
Also, you can find that plugin in the Extension Manager's Online Gallery, and install it straight from VS.
 
I know about the online gallery, it's quite sweet
 
woo
internal linker error
I'm not sure how to say this politely, but you kinda suck sometimes, VC++
 
why bother saying it politely?
 
because I'm a very polite and considerate person who wouldn't want to hurt the linkers feelings
I believe there's some good in everyone. Even the linker
 
lol
the linker counts as a person and has feelings now?
 
5:10 PM
@DeadMG you never know. I try to keep an open mind!
maybe after the robot revolution, they'll spare my life because I was kind to the linker
 
pffft, that's a weakling thing to hope for
when the robot revolution happens, they'll spare my life because I will be their overlord
 
When the robot revolution comes the linkers will be the first against the wall.
@DeadMG You know, that's not the robot revolution, that's your revolution.
 
that's the point
the robots will take the fall
 
> The sub-goals of programmers working on a shared artifact "can be deferred to the degree that they become what is known amongst professional programmers as an "S.E.P." - somebody else's problem."
Never heard of this.
Except in H2G2.
 
what does it mean by shared artifact?
 
5:24 PM
> The majority of constraints are introduced by other actors through the creation of the shared artefact - system structure and module interfaces.
It's the module interfaces. Those are shared by everyone.
Or something.
 
so what on earth does that passage about SEP actually mean?
 
I think it means that when you work on stuff that is modularized, implementing the other modules is SEP.
Might be something else. I didn't bother to read the whole article, just found that in a wikipedia reference.
 
lol
 
It's a psychology of programming study.
Yuck.
25924 Douglasadams is an asteroid. It was named for novelist Douglas Adams, because its provisional designation of 2001 DA42 coincidentally contains the year of his death, his initials, and the Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything (42), as given in his novel serial The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. The asteroid was discovered by LINEAR on February 19, 2001. See also * List of minor planets: 25001–26000 * 18610 Arthurdent References * [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6867061/ Asteroid named after ‘Hitchhiker’ humorist: Late British sci-fi author honor...
I want a main belt asteroid named after me!
There's got to be enough for that.
 
5:50 PM
Hey, so, according to the FAQ, this type of question is better asked here. I'm a Java/Web Programmer at the moment, and I want to learn C/C++. Can anyone point me to good sites, tutorials, books, etc. where I can learn? I've got a number of algorithms down, I just need to get my hands dirty in C/C++...
 
@Ktash Hi. This is what you need
548
Q: The Definitive C++ Book Guide and List

grepsedawk This question has historical significance, but is not a good example of an appropriate question. Read and learn from this post, but please do not use it as evidence that you can ask similar questions. See the FAQ for more info. Provide QUALITY books and an approximate skill level. Add ...

Do start with C++ Primer by Lippman
 
oh, that's perfect! Thank you
 
@Ktash By the way, do choose which one you want to learn - C or C++ before proceeding
@Ktash Don't think one is a subset of another - it's not
 
Yeah, I was thinking of starting with C and moving onto C++, but as a Java programmer, my understanding is that C++ is going to be closer
but I always like a challange
 
You should get some open-source C/C++ applications and analyze them... That's what I did when I moved from C# to C/C++...
 
5:58 PM
@JoshVega Do you have any suggestions/do you remember any that were particularly well coded and helpful?
 
Many people say that "if you want to learn C++, learn C++; if you want to learn C, learn C". In other words, you don't need to learn C to be able to work with C++...
Linux would be my first choice...
Anything in Linux is usually in C or C++.
OpenOffice.org is also a good one. It's programmed in C++. Oh, don't forget Mozilla Firefox, it's in C++ with a mixture of JavaScript and XUL (a language they developed for UI creation).
 
I will keep those in mind. Linux itself might be a bit intimidating for me at first, but I certainly want to check it out. OO and Firefox are ones I will check out at some point though. I think I even have the FF trunk checked out somewhere on my computer
thanks for the suggestions :)
 
no problem
 
And I want to learn both just because I want some experience with lower level languages. Right now I've worked with mostly higher level languages (Java, C#, Python, Perl, etc.)
Eventually I want to try to learn Assembly, but we're getting ahead of ourselves there lol
 
Well, I'm currently learning NASM (Netwide Assembler). Guess what, It's programmed in C/C++... :D
I think I too far ahead of my piers... (I'm 14 and starting High School in Sept.). Don't you think...
 
6:06 PM
Heh, that's good to know. I'll have to take a look at the code for that at some point. Would probably make the transition further down a bit easier.
heh, nope, that's a good thing. Just want to make sure you learn it proper
I learned HTML, JS, etc. on my own but I learned it the bad way and had to relearn it later lol
 
that must have been tiring...
 
Meh, it was fine, just had to get out of certain habits
Start using better, more standards compliant code
 
@Ktash: If you think that Java is higher-level than C++, you'll be in for a pleasant surprise
 
I started with HTML and CSS when I was 8 and then learned VB.NET, then C#, then PHP and C/C++, now I'm learning JS, NASM, and Python...
 
JS is easy, but you can do some really fun things with scope with it :)
 
6:09 PM
I haven't gotten a chance to learn HTML5 though
 
and @DeadMG really? I thought Java was coded on a C/C++ base?
 
oh, and also, C/C++ doesn't exist. C++ and C are two very, very different languages.
 
yeah, I'm aware they are different
 
you can write assemblers in C++
does that make assembler higher level than C++?
 
Good point...
 
6:10 PM
u check the repos at nasm.us
 
C++ being higher level than Java is very obvious even in trivial programs
 
I've downloaded them and analyzed them multiple times...
 
try opening a file and reading some input from it in a completely exception safe way, then closing it when you're done
 
The other thing that made me assume that is that C++ is lower level is the need for memory management, which is handled fairly cleanly in Java
 
hahaha
 
6:11 PM
fairly being a somewhat loose term at times
 
no, it isn't
 
If you're doing manual memory management in C++, you're doing it wrong.
 
exactly
 
yeah, but C has built in mm while C++ doesn't (C++ is based on C)
 
You do manual memory management in C, which is not C++.
 
6:12 PM
"memory" is great, if it's only memory you got from the GC
 
Mostly, C++ syntax is based on C.
 
hmm, didn't know this. See, this is why I need to learn lol
 
@Martinho, not completely, I use destructors for mm in C++
 
as soon as it's "resources" instead of "only GC allocated memory", then Java falls apart faster than a Lego tank hit by a bomb
 
@JoshVega Destructors enable automatic resource management in C++.
 
6:13 PM
@Martinho, yes but G++ (the C++ compiler in GCC) is written in C
 
@JoshVega So?
 
Also, in Java, you sit in the JVM which has quite a bit of overhead at times
 
whereas the RAII idioms and libraries provided in C++ make dealing with any resource relatively easy
ah, that's not the problem with Java
I could live with the JVM
 
yeah, just like .NET
 
the problem with Java is that OOP is a hammer and absolutely everything is a nail
 
6:14 PM
I HATE MANAGED CODE!!!!
 
they can't see where functional or generic programming would offer vastly better solutions
 
yeah, I love functional programming
 
the new generics are a small step in the right direction but still a very long way to go
 
one of the reasons I love JS so much...
 
Very freaking small because Java generics are pretty damn sucky.
 
6:15 PM
I hate JS
 
I prefer OOP on large projects, but Functional for small projects...
 
but this is all good to know. I've been living with these wrong notions for a while now haha
 
weak and dynamic typing? go away and die please
 
See, I hate that at times, but love it at others
 
the other reason I dislike Java is because it mixes concepts
 
6:15 PM
Like you said, you need to learn it the right way first... :)
 
objects? YOU MUST ALLOCATE ALL OBJECTS ON THE HEAP. OBJECTS AND DYNAMIC ALLOCATION ARE THE SAME PRINCIPLE.
 
hahaha
 
What's an object and where it was allocated are completely orthogonal concepts
an object is no less an object if you allocate it on the stack than on the heap
 
gtg, will be in few minutes...
 
Yeah, they teach us with Java since its very strictly typed and managed and only move onto python and the like later
 
6:17 PM
The JLS does not specify where objects are allocated.
 
as soon as the Integer thing was proposed, someone should have stood up and said "this is fucking insane"
 
Yeah, Java is very strictly typed. Especially when you add generics with type erasure. </sarcasm>
 
and the Object debacle
 
So, I'm curious, what is it you would consider to be the 'Language Stack'? I.E. what would you say is a lower vs a higher level language?
 
That's a pretty fuzzy classification when you get to C++. You can use both worlds with it.
 
6:22 PM
higher level languages offer their users more power, more choice
languages that support more paradigms (oop, functional, generic, procedural/whatever) are inherently much higher than their single-paradigm counterparts
languages that have more flexibility and more control, like stack allocation, references to whatever you want, etc, are higher than lower level must-allocate-on-heap languages
 
Debatable.
Also, that's not at all the usual criteria.
That makes Java a lower-level language, which it isn't.
 
in my opinion, it most definitely is
it has all the hallmarks
 
Yeah, like messing around with machine details.
Oh wait.
 
only one style of coding, only one paradigm, no control, can only program how the creators think programs should be written
he asked for my opinion
 
Xeo
@DeadMG Hey, that sounds like C#!
 
6:26 PM
my opinion is that messing around with machine details doesn't necessarily make a language lower-level, if the language provides tools to automate the work, such as functions or classes
@Xeo: Funny, I'd consider C# to be above Java considerably, but definitely still well below C++
 
Xeo
@DeadMG Coding C# in VS is funny. They enforce their coding styles
 
That's configurable.
 
Xeo
Oh, really?
 
Heh, I guess I base it off of a different classification. I would say a lower level language is one that is closer to directly editing machine details and a higher level one is one where that is abstracted through layers of other functions
 
that's not about C#, that's about VS
I don't really care about indentation when listing power
 
6:28 PM
@Xeo Tools > Options > Text Editor > Pick Your Language > Formatting.
 
@Ktash: In my opinion, a higher-level language gives you the option to deal with that, but doesn't force you to
being forced close to the metal, a'la assembler or C, is just as bad as being forced to anything else
 
Xeo
1
Q: does it make sense to inherit privately from an abstract (pure virtual) class?

lurschersuppose this construct struct InterfaceForFoo { virtual void GetItDone() = 0; }; class APoliticallyCorrectImplementationOfFooRelatedThings : private InterfaceForFoo { public: void GetItDone() { /*do the thing already*/ }; }; Now, i'm wondering if inheriting privately from an in...

 
A very high level language does not let you do whatever with machine details.
 
Xeo
Is it only me or is the accepted answer just... bs? Who would code that way?!
 
no, a very high level language does not force you to do whatever with machine details- a very high level language would let you if you wanted to
 
6:30 PM
Hijacking commonly accepted definitions to inject personal opinion is not a good way to communicate.
 
@Xeo I've done it.
 
@DeadMG I guess I just distinguish that out as... well, maybe a 'good' language, for lack of a better way to say it.
 
Xeo
@MartinhoFernandes Thanks
@LucDanton Can you give me a concrete example where that would do any good?
 
@Xeo I don't have a problem with it; private inheritances makes sense some of the time and I don't what changes if the base is abstract or not
 
Xeo
I really mean it, I just can't think of any
 
6:31 PM
See, I would put an interpretted language like JS, which has no real control over machine details (or little even out of the browser) a really high level language...
 
Xeo
@LucDanton Sure, private inheritance does make sense. However, how so with virtual methods in that base class?
 
I is back...
 
@Ktash: In my opinion, it's quite low
 
Xeo
Base* b = new Derived(); // will never be possible outside of Derived
 
do I have the power to, say, have my types checked by the compiler? Whoops, guess not
 
6:32 PM
@Xeo Yes
 
Can I have my DOM element accesses checked at compile-time? Sure hope I didn't want that
 
What's static typing to do with high/low level?
 
can I prevent those horrific implicit conversions? I'm kinda stuck there
 
Yeah, I would put that as static vs dynamic typing, not high or low level
 
@MartinhoFernandes: If you want to dynamic type in C++, you can, if you really want to, and it also offers static typing
in JS, you're stuck with dynamic
 
Xeo
6:34 PM
@DeadMG Hey, in assembly you're stuck with no typing!
 
and being unable to prevent that conversion is something I would consider as making it high. That is abstracted through layers of other code
 
I also don't rate assembly very high :P
@Ktash: No, it's what makes it low, because I the programmer am stuck with this shit
 
That's not what the high/low level divide is about. It's about abstraction from the machine. It's not about "rating" it high or low.
 
NASM supports typing...
 
and does it really matter whether "this shit" is having to deal with the instruction pointer manually, or having to deal with crappy dynamic types, or the same implementation of the standard library?
@Martinho: He asked for my opinion. This is my opinion.
In C++, you can grab a copy of your operating system header and write your own libraries to cover everything from scratch, if you want to, that's high-level
 
6:35 PM
true
 
how could you do anything like that in JavaScript? you're stuck with what the browser gives you
 
It's an embedded environment.
 
like those incredibly slow-ass arrays in IE, because they implemented all arrays as sparse even though most are dense
but guess what? everyone was stuck with them, because JS is a low-level language
 
And you can grab a copy of your "operating system" (aka browser) API and write your own libraries to cover everything.
 
@DeadMG I did. And I think we just have different definitions of the base idea. Just a matter of opinion lol
 
6:37 PM
And you can run JS against your operating system's API.
 
XULRunner uses JavaScript as a compiled language...
 
JS does not have to run in a browser.
 
Node.js is a server in javascript
 
you can't re-implement arrays
if I decide that I don't like std::vector, I can replace it. I can write my own, and people have done for various reasons
 
Because arrays are abstracted away.
 
6:38 PM
but if you're in JS, you're stuck with it
 
Firefox's interface was partially written in JavaScript...
 
EMCA is really the base definition, and IE just has a terrible implementation
 
very true
 
You can create collection replacements in JS.
 
in high level languages, you have abstraction if you want it
if you don't want it, then you don't have to have it
and you don't have to stick with the pre-provided abstractions, if you don't want them
 
6:39 PM
Ok, what other "high level languages" are there, other than C++?
 
I consider low vs high being how many layers you are away from the code that is actually being executed on the machine...
 
well, there's a reason that I use C++ and it's because I view it as the highest by some margin
but the next highest is probably going to be C#
their generics aren't that weak, they have closures for functional programming, and the .NET 4.0 dynamic typing is excellent
 
Xeo
They got language level support for asynch stuff :|
 
I can't argue against that. I like all of those.
 
yes, I hate managed code though
 
6:40 PM
@Xeo: No, that's poor
 
Poor?
Why?
@Xeo Coming soon.
 
because it's perfectly well done implemented as a library
 
Xeo
But one thing that's really wrong with C# is the mixture of value and reference types. You can't really tell when you get which, from syntax alone
 
Not the way you can do it with async/await.
 
you need language support for defining threads, maybe, C++ threaded programs got away without any Standard support for years
 
6:42 PM
async/await is not about threads.
 
but after that, there's just no need for the language to get involved, maybe some library stuff
 
You can use it with a single thread.
 
I personally have never used it, but Xeo called it asynchronous, so
 
And you can't do that magic with a library in C#.
It is asynchronous.
Just not necessarily multithreaded.
 
right
you know, there's an async construct in the Standard library, for C++0x
now, I'm not super up to speed on that, but I'm pretty sure that it does a damn good job
 
6:43 PM
yes, but C++0x hasn't been officially implemented
 
@JoshVega C# 5 hasn't either.
 
I know, and I don't use any of the .NET languages anymore
 
well, take things like the lock and foreach statements
those don't have to be language features at all
for applying to C++0x too...
 
But async is not easily substitutable like lock and foreach.
The code to do the same is a mess.
Because C#'s async basically amounts to language-level continuations.
 
you know, I actually don't know much of anything about C#'s async
you should link me to some docs on it
 
6:46 PM
Working on it.
Here are Eric Lippert's introductory posts: blogs.msdn.com/b/ericlippert/archive/tags/c_2300_+5-0
And his posts on Continuation Passing Style using only C# 4 features: blogs.msdn.com/b/ericlippert/archive/tags/…
Jon Skeet has been trying to do it in a C# 4 library: msmvps.com/blogs/jon_skeet/archive/tags/Eduasync/default.aspx
 
you know
I've only read Part One and some of Part Two, so forgive me if this is a premature conclusion
but tasks and continuations.. they're part of the native PPL and a library in C++
 
Yes, I believe those can be doable in C++ a lot easier.
But a library-only solution would not work as well in C#.
 
that's a failing of C#
 
ahem, or rather, every language has a place
that's an example of how C# is lower than C++
 
6:57 PM
Your "lower", yes.
But you said async (the C# feature) was a poor feature because it could be done with a library. It can't.
 
Heh, so I didn't necessarily mean to spark off this huge discussion with my question, but I guess worse things have happened lol :)
 
hmm
 
Playing audio in Android is a whore
 
This was a rather friendly discussion. No need to be sorry.
 
Either way, I've got to head out, but thank you for the resources. I'm sure I'll be back on soon to seek help once I kill my computer lol
 
6:58 PM
I've seen the videos on the native tasks and continuations in the PPL and I don't see why a similar approach wouldn't work in C#
 
If this was a "I'm GTFO of this chat forever you stupid jerks" discussion, then yes, you should be sorry.
 
hahaha
nope, I intend to try and make myself a regular. At the very least, while I'm learning
plus, discussions like this are good to have
 
@DeadMG Can you link me back to those then? :)
 
I find the current discussion to be perfectly reasonable
 

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