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4:00 PM
Aug 16 at 19:36, by sbi
@FredOverflow Install "Symbola" from here.
 
@thecoshman Why would I use images where I can use a font glyph?
 
@RM thanks
 
I'd have to make four images manually for that.
 
@CatPlusPlus just dl them
 
Dl what and from where, exactly?
 
4:03 PM
dl ALL THE THINGS...
I don't know... i'm tired and lazy and stuff
 
poop.com was a bust.
 
ergh... bad coffee
 
"Bad coffee" is redundant.
 
@CatPlusPlus ?
 
4:05 PM
!
 
o_-
 
Alternatively: yes.
 
Now that's inefficient.
 
!! =
true story
 
4:07 PM
; <- this is not a semicolon. This is U+037E Greek Question Mark.
 
Those crazy Greeks
 
Why so Greek?
(I read that as "Great Question Mark" first).
 
SO chat is normalizing our punctuation!
 
What do you mean?
 
4:10 PM
If you copy-paste from chat it shows up as an ASCII semicolon.
 
strange...
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
 
Anyway, for what it's worth, \u037E is a valid identifier…
 
@Potatoswatter Not here.
 
oh noes... reddit is down
 
I just copy-pasted yours, and it is indeed a greek question mark.
 
4:12 PM
Maybe Firefox is being tricky? Whatever.
 
scum bag firefox
 
@Potatoswatter so that whole question got settled then?
 
@Potatoswatter A greek question mark is a semi-colon, it just has a different character code.
 
@cat it took a restart of chrome, but now I'm optimized for boating
 
4:15 PM
@keithlayne I still haven't accepted an answer… nor have I filed a DR, so I would say not.
 
hmmm
 
@keithlayne huhwhat? boating?
 
Upboating.
 
silly @cat
 
4:17 PM
@keithlayne I suppose it was only a matter of time
 
why can't constexpr functions have default values???
 
What default values?
 
I mean default arguments
 
Then say default arguments.
 
@Pubby Says who? I'm using exactly that combination of features…
 
4:20 PM
@Potatoswatter says gcc
 
It's useful to make the initial conditions of a recursive constexpr function.
That's what I'm using… try upgrading to 4.7
 
oh wait, it's probably because operators can't have default values
nevermind ;)
 
WTF!
 
4:22 PM
int a = x /;
std::cout << ;
 
implicit currying comes to c++
 
rofl… you're reading my mind. What is the sound of nothing going to output?
 
same as the sound of one hand clapping
 
@keithlayne false, one hand can clap such that it makes a noise
 
@Potatoswatter It goes like this:
 
4:24 PM
home time :D
 
You can clap your neck.
I saw that once in the fresh prince or something.
 
<< "Hello world!\n";
What about this?
Standard output!
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Now it looks like Perl!
Though in Perl that line would probably read << $_;
 
Has anyone here tooled around with programming on a PS3?
 
Xeo
No I have to change my little brother's diapers. Meh
 
4:26 PM
No.
 
he wears more than one at a time?
 
Xeo
What?
 
Redundant Array of Independent Diapers.
 
@robjb back when you could run linux on them, yeah
 
how would you implement "striping"?
 
4:28 PM
@jalf You still can if you resort to home-brew afaik
 
@keithlayne With an extra p, and with women.
 
@jalf Did you play around with the SPEs? Or just the PPE?
 
don't they make it real, real, real hard to program the ps3 post-linux?
 
It wouldn't be a console if they didn't.
 
@robjb both
 
4:29 PM
ms makes the xbox pretty accessible I thought
 
I'm gonna go to bed
and this time, I want to wake up the next day
 
Not a chance.
 
Hmm. I really want to experiment with some parallel computations on the SPEs. But I also want to keep it for gaming :/
 
It's too early.
 
4:31 PM
well, I have no clue how it works with homebrew, or with gaming on the same machine
 
Isn't the Cell pretty much obsolete compared to recent GPUs?
 
the ones I ran it on weren't used for gaming
 
well, I've been up since 11pm last night
 
@Potatoswatter cell isn't a GPU?
 
that's plenty of time, imo
@Potatoswatter Cell was obsolete compared to GPUs at the time
that's why they had to throw in an nVidia GPU on top
 
4:33 PM
Consoles are pretty much obsolete week after release.
 
yeah, pretty much
still, I guess a Cell is a bit more general-purpose than a GPU
 
The magic of closed black boxes.
 
@robjb No, its architecture is different from NVidia/ATI
 
@jalf barely compared to current GPUs
 
@DeadMG Well, it also had its own strengths, hence making it in the first place… but I wonder if there's anything it does better now.
 
4:33 PM
@CatPlusPlus Hey, the Xbox is white!
 
@Potatoswatter I meant that to be a statement, my question mark was directed at you comparing it with a GPU.
I know the architecture is very different :)
 
@Potatoswatter No, making it was a mistake. Sony had no idea that the power of GPUs was going to explode like it did. It was designed to function as both CPU and GPU
 
@Potatoswatter afaik, it's pretty much as @DeadMG said. They intended it to act as CPU and GPU, but then it turned out that it was nowhere near fast enough to work as GPU
so they licensed a Geforce 7900 from NVidia and slapped that on top
so the reason for making it wasn't so much that it had its own strengths, but that they underestimated the advances of dedicated GPUs
 
as I heard it, Sony knew exactly how fast the chip would be, and they just didn't expect nVidia/ATi to be so far ahead by the time it was done
 
Xeo
Ugh, the stench is killing me.
 
4:35 PM
still, it's a cool piece of hardware. A fun architecture to play around with. Just not very generally useful any more
 
Xeo
Seriously, that little guy (2yrs) can take a dump that will knock you outta your socks... holy shit indeed.
 
Well, they wanted it to be a lot of things. There was supposed to be a whole personal distributed computing ecosystem, which never materialized for a variety of reasons.
 
From what I understand, the SPE's are still quite powerful for certain computation
 
what I don't get is the x64 architecture
why didn't they throw out all the warts from x86-32?
 
@Xeo Why are you chatting instead of fixing it?
 
4:36 PM
@robjb compared to what? Sure, they're powerful compared to a regular FPU, but they're nothing next to a GPU
 
@DeadMG they did lose a lot of them
 
Also, the Cell was all custom circuits, whereas the GPUs used a more automated, generic design flow, so they could make architectural evolution faster.
 
Backwards compatibility, as always.
 
@DeadMG because of compatibility. They needed something that'd work well with existing x86 code
but they did throw out a fair few warts
 
but you have to rewrite the compiler to target x64 anyway
 
4:37 PM
16-bit compatibility, for example
 
You don't have to recompile code to work with x64, though.
 
sure, but the CPU has to be able to run 32-bit code, so the more logic they can reuse, the better
 
oh, that's true
 
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes I already finished
 
@jalf "certain computation" --> the SPE's do vector processing --> any computations that would benefit from such processing.
 
4:38 PM
@Xeo Then stop talking about it. We really don't care :P
 
Actually Intel's first attempt was to throw away all the warts and make a fresh start… they called it Itanium!
 
@robjb but those types of computations could typically be moved to a GPU and you'd gain far more speed
 
Yeah, Itanium. The architecture nobody uses.
 
so sure, a SPE is pretty beefy compared to a FPU, but the FPU isn't the relevant competitor in the niche it's targeted at. The GPUs are the ones you need to beat
 
Because it's even dirtier than x86-32
 
4:39 PM
apparently, at one point, they did ship quite a few Itanium servers
 
@jalf Ah, that's what I was missing. I don't know much (read: anything useful) about GPU architecture
 
You can't kill x86. Not now.
 
Not quite a few. They shipped some, yes.
 
Too much money poured into it.
 
@robjb well, all you need to know is that a modern GPU is probably 100 times faster than a Cell ;)
 
4:40 PM
Even Apple switched to x86 a few years ago.
 
There's hope there'll be more room to improvement when we switch to x128. :P
 
note, I just made that number up :)
@CatPlusPlus which will happen at some point around the heat death of the Universe
 
@robjb GPUs are utterly unchallenged in raw speed. The only reason to ever go near any other processor is because they don't really work well for complex data structures and shit
 
@jalf So if I wanted to experiment with parallel computation of primes, I would be better off trying it out on my GPU ? :)
 
Moreover, a modern GPU has a lot more friendly tools and a more uniform memory architecture.
 
4:41 PM
a 128-bit instruction set is just pointless
 
@robjb YES ABSOLUTELY
 
SSE is 128-bit. :>
 
@robjb definitely, you'd gain a transferable skill rather than a dead end. Either that or MPI/OpenMP for your multicore CPU
 
@jalf Why is it any more pointless than 64bit?
 
@robjb well, depends on what the objective is. For performance and maximum parallelism, yes
but a Cell is good fun to program against (so is a GPU, of course, so take your pick)
 
4:41 PM
Guess what, I just had a peaceful and civilized conversation with curiousguy.
 
@jalf That's the objective :)
 
(Not a joke!)
 
with a Cell you can run 7-8 compute-heavy threads in parallel
 
Performance, maximum parallelism, and some fun along the way.
 
with a GPU, you can have 50k threads alive, and have several hundreds of them executed simultaneously
 
4:42 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes How curious.
 
whistles
That's pretty crazy @jalf, I had no idea the parallelism on a GPU was so extreme.
 
oh yeah
 
@DeadMG because 128 bits is a lot. 32 bit integers were constraining in many practical problems. 64 bit integers are large enough for nearly anything worth computing. And for the few cases where 64 bits aren't enough, you'll be more likely to go for some BigNum class
 
it's not about the integer size, it's about the pointer size
 
there's a cost to making the CPU wider. 128 bit multiplication is inherently slower than 64 bit multiplication. So by switching to a 128 bit architecture, you'd penalize all the 32 or 64 bit operations just to speed up the much more rare 128 bit operations
 
4:44 PM
admittedly, the main use for a 128-bit integer ALU would be to make it do a pair of 64bit integers at once instead
 
64 bits can address 16 bazibytes.
 
:2043671: 16 exabyte isn't enough for you?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes That's what they said about 32bit. It could address 4 gazibytes. Now look where we are.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes TIL
 
@DeadMG but we've already got that, through SIMD. Don't need to make the entire CPU wider for that
 
4:45 PM
Well, 32-bit with PAE can address more than 4GB.
 
true
 
with AVX you can crunch 4 64-bit ints simultaneously
 
but as far as I know, the regular ALU and the SIMD stuff can work in parallel
anyway, when the address space runs out, we'll go up to 128bit, and that's pretty much that
 
@DeadMG I wasn't trying to make a point. Just stating a fact.
 
I'm simply stating an equally valid fact :P
 
4:46 PM
@DeadMG yep. But it's always a tradeoff. You can only cram so many transistors onto a chip. So you need to budget, and determine what they should be spent on
sure, you could spend a lot of transistors making a wider ALU, but the benefit would be pretty small
 
I wonder if anybody here is doing topcoder competitions
 
better to spend those transistors on something else then
 
obviously we should just invent quantum computers and make them do it instead
 
@Nils Everyone's too busy chatting, can't you see?
@DeadMG 16 qubits are enough for you?
 
heh
 
4:47 PM
lol
 
shut up and code!
:P
 
Those competitions are silly.
 
sbi
Must be something in the air today.
 
I'm still waiting for spintronics to bear fruit…
 
sbi
4:49 PM
Damn.
He deleted it!
 
Spintronics (a neologism meaning "spin transport electronics"), also known as magnetoelectronics, is an emerging technology that exploits both the intrinsic spin of the electron and its associated magnetic moment, in addition to its fundamental electronic charge, in solid-state devices. An additional effect occurs when a spin-polarized current is induced. In these cases, the electron spin is quantized in the direction perpendicular to both the plane normal and the two-dimensional wave vector, thus splitting the energy band. This is called the Rashba effect. History Spintronics emerged fro...
 
WHAT DID IT SAY?
 
YEAH WHAT?
 
WE MUST KNOW.
 
You can't leave us like this now.
 
sbi
4:51 PM
I'm working on it!
 
What, he used the RTLO?
Was that it?
 
I feel disappointed.
 
I am disappoint.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes I wonder what's the connection between you guys using it here today, and him trying it on Twitter.
@CatPlusPlus 'course, you are. That's how we know you.
 
@sbi Science cannot explain this.
 
4:53 PM
@sbi Oh, at first I though it was you that told him.
That could also just be something written backwards by hand. Same effect.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes No, I hadn't. Where did you get the idea from?
 
@sbi You usually report bugs to him.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes I mean where did you get the idea from to try this today.
@RMartinhoFernandes Of course, it could. And since he deleted it, we can't check.
 
night
 
sbi
Were you hanging out in the meta tavern, @RMartinho?
 
4:56 PM
@sbi No.
 
sbi
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Overflow Chat, 37 mins ago, by balpha
^^^ somebody star that message
 
@sbi I read about this exploit on Windows. You name a file with RTLOs embedded that ends with .exe. But you exploit this to make the file appear in Windows Explorer something like "the.executive.report.xls".
 
When asked why we should upgrade to a newer version of VS2010, I listed off a ton of language features that make life easier. I got the response, "That's great, but we need to have a reason to have it. Is there anything that we can't do without it."
 
But the real name is "the<RTLO>slx.troper.evituc.exe" or something.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Ah, so he might have had the same source.
How do you type that RTLO thing?
 
4:57 PM
We must be under surveillance.
 
So it's actually an exe, but you think it's a spreadsheet.
Double click and boom.
@sbi I open the charmap and copy paste it.
 
I use UnicodeInput.
 
It takes some effort to type with them inside the text because they're invisible and you have half of the text LTR and half RTL.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes That would make it theexe.cutive.report.xls, no?
 
4:59 PM
@sbi On screen? Yes.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Because you had that wrong.
 
But it's an exe because the string ends in .exe.
 

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