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1:00 PM
tree growth rings are pretty good too, IIRC
 
well i meant it's hot not cold :-)
 
@AlfPSteinbach yum!
 
@jalf It's hotter now due to CO2, than say, 100 or 200 years ago, if temperature methodologies differ? These days we have satellites, but back then, it'd have been mercury recordings.
 
yeah, what @DeadMG is saying. We can look at a lot of things that tell us temperatures over huge spans of time. Then we can see the general trends, even if we can't say that "june 16th sure was hot back in 1582"
 
@AlfPSteinbach I may well look for it some time.
 
1:00 PM
mercury recordings are pretty accurate
they're no satellites, but the science is solid and reliable
 
@SSight3 ice cores and tree rings are not dependant on mercury recordings
 
Mercury thermometers probably measure local temperatures better than satellites.
:)
 
@jalf Okay, fair enough. According to ice core readings, what were the trends of temperatures over the years? I'll ask for a link here.
 
we can see general temperature trends going millions of years back. And we can see atmosphering CO2 levels going millions of years back
 
@RMartinhoFernandes We intend for global temperature readings.
 
1:02 PM
and when we look at those, we can see that, one the whole, they match up
 
but we can also see microclimate changes
 
@jalf Okay, can you link me to the evidence that backs this up so I may look at it?
 
for example, 500 years ago was still warmer than it was today
 
so either higher temperatures cause CO2 to go into the atmosphere, or CO2 going into the atmosphere causes temperatures on the whole, on average, over large time spans, to go up
 
so any given year or even stretch doesn't indicate a general, global, trend
 
1:02 PM
@DeadMG Then, why are we saying CO2 influences temperature?
 
because it does
it's just not the only one
 
@DeadMG Then how are the non-CO2 variables factored out?
 
you don't have to have a 1:1 correspondence to be an influence
fairly simple statistics
 
@SSight3 because we know it does. Because we've been able to observe it directly on models. Everyone, even the few scientists who deny that global warming is caused by humans, agree that CO2 influences temperature
 
@DeadMG Or perhaps, I should say, is the variance caused by CO2 sufficient compared to say, another variable (like, UV-rays, as a specious example)?
 
1:04 PM
@SSight3 by looking at a lot of samples, and if they all match up with CO2 levels, then there's probably a correlation of some kind
 
@jalf Evidence of, not hearsy.
 
sufficient? sufficient compared to what?
positive correlations are mathematically proven or disproven
 
or, to put it another way, if you can think of another factor that better matches observations, tens of thousands of climate scientists would be very interested in hearing about it
 
they don't have to be compared to anything
 
@DeadMG Well, when I say sufficient, say I have a car. And in the back there's an elephant, and on the front is a fly. And we say the fly is slowing down the car, is it as sufficient as dealing with the elephant in the back?
 
1:05 PM
If CO2 influences, and we are spitting the damn thing all over the place, it doesn't matter much if things beyond our control (like solar activity or whatever) also influence.
 
right
 
@jalf Solar activity. See above. I'd even say, solar activity cycles and sunspot minima/maxima.
 
so actually you're asking if it's a significant correlation
and it is
 
@SSight3 You can't do a damn thing about that.
 
even if you just look at the record visually, it's obvious
 
1:06 PM
@DeadMG But you said 500 years ago it was hotter?
 
@SSight3 Solar activity doesn't add up. It's been low for the last decade, when we've had the hottest years of the last century
 
yeah, but as I also said, so what?
correspondence over millions of years does not mean no anomalies or no outliers
 
it is a factor, certainly, but on the whole, throughout the planet's history, we can see a clear correlation between CO2 levels and climate. We can't see one between climate and solar activity
 
@DeadMG It implies it wasn't CO2 that raised it to such hotter temperatures. So how do we know it's not re-occurring?
 
because it's extremely unlikely
sure, it could be some other effect, but the probability is exceedingly low
 
1:07 PM
@SSight3 it's not enough to say "solar activity". You need to show that it matches observations, and that it matches better than the established theory
 
Sunspot cycles are like what, 11 years long?
 
@DeadMG Was there an investigation to see what other causes, given it couldn't have been CO2 as man did not have sufficient CO2 production in those times?
 
I bet there was.
 
oh, they certainly could
 
Lots of people don't want it to be CO2.
 
1:08 PM
it's not as much as now, but there was still a hell of a lot
 
@DeadMG But wouldn't that make it expotential then?
 
not to mention simple, non-man-made things happening to occur in those years that produces CO2, like volcanic eruptions
or other greenhouse gases
@SSight3 No, why would it do that?
 
@DeadMG 500 years * CO2 production? Wouldn't it be log and not linear?
If it is 'a hell of a lot'?
 
@SSight3 there are plenty of other factors at play, yes, and some of them are far more powerful than a bit of CO2 in the atmosphere. Volcanic activity is a good one, for example. Other greenhouse gases, solar activity, distance from the sun and so on and so forth. There are a huge number of factors, and we don't claim to understand half of them at the moment
Historically there have been huge changes in climate (ice ages, for example), which were certainly caused by other things.
 
1:09 PM
but that doesn't change the fact that outside these extreme events, CO2 seems to correlate with temperatures
 
@jalf That's a fair enough point. If they changed from just CO2 to say, environmental damage and being sustainable, I could accept it. I don't see why CO2 is the exclusive problem.
 
There's also the mini-ice age a few hundred years ago.
 
@SSight3 who ever claimed CO2 was the exclusive problem?
 
It's a problem we can tackle.
 
That's a strawman fallacy if I ever heard one
Why do you think CFC gases were outlawed back in the 80's or whenever it was?
Because those are far more powerful greenhouse gases than CO2
 
1:11 PM
@jalf CO2 carbon tax implies it. As we have no tax for radioactive leaks, for example.
 
@SSight3 are you claiming that radioactive leaks affects global climate change?
@SSight3 No, CO2 tax implies that we want to do something about the CO2 part of the equation
Not that CO2 is the only factor of interest
 
@jalf Perhaps? I would not claim to know enough on radioactivity to know it's... oh... acid rain? Sorry. I don't know, could cause something? I wouldn't know.
 
@SSight3 so you're saying you'd be happier if they taxed things completely at random jsut in order to emphasize that "CO2 isn't the only problem we face"?
 
Acid rain is due to some sulfurous shit, not nuclear.
 
@jalf Not at random, but things that cause environmental damage.
Strawman argument. Heh.
 
1:13 PM
There are a lot of things being done to curtail climate change, but right now, CO2 seems to be the most critical issue. CO2 levels are going up fast, and our best models show that CO2 alone can have a pretty big impact over the next century or two
 
@jalf Okay, I'll turn this discussion into a productive angle. How can we deal with the issue practically given that wind-generators can be expensive to maintain, and both solar panels and wind-generators can be inefficient? Why has there been no big moves against oil companies, like with the BP oil spill?
 
More nuclear power!
 
You can't push much against oil.
 
@LucDanton What about chernobyl and fukushima?
 
Too much depends on it.
 
1:16 PM
@SSight3 Don't do like them.
It's bad.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Can we make it so we can undepend on it?
 
Not too fast.
That would bring economical disaster.
 
Chernobyl is not really relevant.
 
Indeed.
Fukushima is however.
 
@LucDanton Chernobyl was a management failure, Fukushima was an unforeseen disaster. The US has 133 nuclear power plants, most of which are aging... Sorry going off-topic here aren't I?
@CatPlusPlus It is when you want to factor in human stupidity.
 
1:17 PM
Nukes age way too much because ecological groups oppose their replacement.
 
@StackedCrooked Do you live on a hotbed of seismical activity and/or a tsunami zone and/or is the design of your nuclear plants imported?
 
@SSight3 the second part is fairly simple. Because (1) they're powerful and have good lobbyists, and (2) currently, we need them ;)
 
@jalf Okay. What about landfill waste? When we have to replace the hydrogen cell, solar panels etc?
 
@SSight3 and some major improvements are being made on making solar and wind power cheaper and more efficient. It's not quite there yet, but it's gotten a lot more affordable than it was just a decade ago
 
@LucDanton No..
 
1:19 PM
@SSight3 most of it can be recycled, afaik
 
@StackedCrooked In what terms is Fukushima relevant?
 
@jalf Good.
@LucDanton Unforeseen disaster management. I always liken it to coding - catching bugs you never plan or intend to occur.
 
Does the recycling process produce CO2 in large quantities?
Certainly not more than coal plants.
 
@SSight3 The alternative is foreseen coal mining.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Curious question. I like that.
 
1:21 PM
As grim as it sounds, if you look at the MW/casualties record, nuclear power is looking good.
 
@LucDanton There are rumours of different nuclear tech, one that does not rely on needing back-up cooling systems. Anti-matter is also a curious development, but a bit too futuristic to be practical, I think.
 
By all means that doesn't mean it doesn't come with huge, unwelcome strings attached.
 
@LucDanton Solar is the worse on that.
 
@LucDanton I find it worrying that a disaster happened in a well-maintained nuclear plant. (Yes, I dare to admit this even though I was and still am pro nuclear power.)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Wind too it appears. Couldn't find a second source on that though.
 
1:21 PM
More people die falling from roofs installing solar panels than directly from the nuclear industry (per W per year).
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Another good point. Mining for rare materials from mines.
 
@SSight3 No, you need to factor in USSR.
 
@StackedCrooked It's okay to be worried. I only questioned the relevance, not the gravity.
 
@CatPlusPlus Chernobyl's failure was apparently due to a management decision to disable a fail-safe. Now, I don't know about you, but I know management can make those kind of uninformed decisions anywhere in the world.
 
And Fukushima wasn't that much of a disaster (what level was it, I don't remember?). Plus it's built in a dangerous area, that's to be expected.
 
1:23 PM
@CatPlusPlus Same as Chernobyl (I honestly don't see why. They should add a new level just for Chernobyl.)
 
@CatPlusPlus If the dangerous area was expected, why wasn't it planned for?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Well, the highest level is just Chernobyl, basically.
 
Japan has few alternatives.
 
@SSight3 Japan.
 
Shale just doesn't cut it.
 
1:24 PM
@CatPlusPlus Also, understatement, Fukushima is classified the same as Chernobyl in terms of scale.
 
Since when? I remember it being low even at the end of the whole ordeal.
 
It's just not as reported, so you think there's nothing to it.
 
And there's nothing like Chernobyl to it.
 
Even Chernobyl is not as terrible as everyone is making it.
And it was the biggest failure ever.
 
Chernobyl was a single reactor failure.
Fukushima was 6.
 
1:26 PM
Chernobyl fucked up half of Europe.
 
Also, I don't think anyone died at Fukushima.
 
Fukushima was highly localized.
@CatPlusPlus A power plant worker fell from a crane when the tsunami hit.
(I am not making this up.)
 
And Chernobyl was outdated even then, modern reactors are far more safe.
 
@CatPlusPlus This is because no-one has been reported to have died.
@CatPlusPlus There are no modern reactors. Most are aged GE Mark I reactors like Fukushima.
 
Why are there no modern reactors?
 
1:28 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Beats me. Lemme go quote.
 
My theory: "Let's install a new reactor and replace this old crap" "NO MORE NUCLEAR! NO MORE NUCLEAR!" "Ok, let's keep running this old crap and shut up these morons."
 
Please don't link to CNN.
 
That's just the US. I have no idea in terms of globally.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes afaik, the waste from new reactors can't be used to manufacture nuclear weapons
 
@jalf Oh, right I was forgetting that.
 
1:30 PM
which makes them less attractive to certain powerful lobbyists ;)
 
I think it was U.S. President Carter that forbade nuclear reprocessing in the U.S.
 
Plants can't reuse perfectly good "waste".
 
"US nuclear reactors were originally licensed to operate for 40-year periods. In the 1980s, the NRC determined that there were no technical issues that would preclude longer service.[31] "
 
But I wonder why the US would want to build even more nukes (weapons, not plants).
 
1:32 PM
Perhaps they feel threatened by China?
 
As if they didn't have enough.
 
Well, how do you plan on replacing those that get lost at sea?
 
Lost at sea?
WTF do you mean?
 
Let's be scared of nuclear power, but build more mass weaponry.
 
@CatPlusPlus This is why I am surprised the human race hasn't killed itself.
Here's something that will scare you all:
Quantum computing and nuclear weapons.
 
1:34 PM
Nuclear power is still the way to go.
 
@SSight3 Because MAD works.
 
It's cheaper and more efficient.
 
@CatPlusPlus I think we could build electro-dynamic spacestations to harvest energy from the sun. But that's just my fantastical idea.
 
I, for one, would like to pay less for energy.
 
I, for one, would not like to pay for my cheaper energy in a different way (I.E. environmental disaster).
 
1:35 PM
@SSight3 And fire it down to the ground! :)
 
The United States Armed Forces uses a number of terms to define the magnitude and extent of nuclear incidents. Origin United States Department of Defense directive 5230.16, Nuclear Accident and Incident Public Affairs (PA) Guidance, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Manual 3150.03B Joint Reporting Structure Event and Incident Reporting, and the United States Air Force Operation Reporting System, as set out in Air Force Instruction 10-206 detail a number of terms for internally and externally (including press releases) reporting nuclear incidents. They are used by the United States of America...
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Precisely. I've been trying to figure how it won't get turned into a laser beam for killing stuff though.
 
Yeah, coal power plants can't cause environmental disasters in any way.
 
Totally safe for the miners, too.
 
Coal plants are the worst.
 
1:36 PM
You have to mine uranium too.
 
Hydro, wind and solar are still less efficient, so more expensive.
 
Uranium*
Argh I should edit
Force of habit
 
@SSight3 You don't need to mine as much though.
 
@SSight3 Have you considered the ratio of MWh/kg of ore?
Why do I keep putting units of power when I mean energy.
 
And coal plants actually spew more radioactive crap to the atmosphere than nukes.
 
1:37 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Is it not radioactive though?
 
Silly electrical engineering, SI uses the Joule.
 
Background radiation is everywhere.
 
@SSight3 Most of it is crap.
 
@SSight3 Naturally occuring uranium is pretty safe.
 
@CatPlusPlus Not the same of beta and gamma.
 
1:37 PM
99% of it is discarded.
 
You're being radiated by standing in the middle of a big city.
 
@LucDanton Nope. It's one of those situations where you want a solution that doesn't have downsides. Also, like programming.
@CatPlusPlus Yep. But it isn't going to make me sterile, unlike, say, a continuous X-ray.
 
> Around 99.284% of natural uranium is uranium-238.
That one is harmless.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Well, I'll let other people find out if it's not.
 
@SSight3 It's not rare at all.
It's common in many metallic alloys.
 
1:40 PM
@SSight3 Good luck with providing energy at the industrial scale without industrial accidents. Even the wind energy record has casualties already.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Never said it was rare. I think. Did I?
 
People still mine for it even if not for nukes.
It has other interesting properties that make it desirable.
 
Aircraft ballast! Tooth whitener! Fluorescence!
 
@LucDanton Like I said, electro-dynamic spacestation. Without the people.
@LucDanton Heart?
 
@SSight3 There's already a record of casualties for going into space.
 
1:43 PM
Three deaths in outer space.
 
@LucDanton Well, that's their fault.
 
Lots more in between that and the surface.
Lots of "successful" accidents too.
 
Yeah, planes. It's considered one of the safest forms of transport, and yet when the accidents happen, they're terrible.
Kind of like, I don't know, nuclear power plants.
 
Not to mention that providing energy at the industrial scale requires a power grid, no matter what the energy source. You completely missed my point on that.
 
1:45 PM
@CatPlusPlus Well, I am sure Fukushima is always looking for cleaner recruits...
 
Senior citizens tried to help but they were turned down, so I'm not sure about that.
 
Speaking of nukes and trying to stay on topic. Bananas are the most radioactive fruit.
 
@LucDanton Okay, I understood your point, but I don't think things can be made completely safe. Unless you're suggesting we abandon electricty altogether?
 
INES scale is there. Most accidents in nuclear power plants aren't that much more serious than, say, accidents in coal power plants.
 
1:47 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Along with certain nuts.
 
That would kill millions.
@SSight3 Ha! Nuts are seeds!
 
@CatPlusPlus That's a highly subjective claim. What are we comparing to?
 
@SSight3 I was pointing out that it's silly to consider the risks in absolute terms.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yes, but they are radioactive. Apparently.
 
@SSight3 Of course they are. Pretty much everything is.
 
1:48 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Must be all that potassium. (I guess now I know two facts about bananas. Wait, three, I know that thing about banana 'trees'.)
 
I'm too lazy to look for records on coal power plants.
 
@LucDanton Yes, it's K40.
(Plus, we can now find plutonium pretty much everywhere on the surface of the Earth, thanks to us spewing it all over to test nukes.)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Heh, I was half-expecting an answer to the like of 'no actually potassium only appear as molecule so-and-so, so that's pretty stable.'
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yay humanity.
 
@LucDanton There's a unit of measure of exposure to radiation: the banana equivalent dose
 
1:51 PM
Also, you're going to die anyway, who cares what from.
MORE NUKES!
 
More bananas!
 
Banana does seem to be a recurring theme.
 
@CatPlusPlus The question is not how, but when, and whether or not you are sterile as a result.
 
I don't really care about that, either.
Gotta fight the overpopulation, or something
 
Someone seems bent on dying.
Which is probably me. I'm eating a banana now. Two of them.
 
1:54 PM
We're seven thousand million now.
 
0
Q: stuck in infinite loop in deallocating memory

Vinayak Gargi had asked help on this question here Static member reclaiming memory and recovering from an exception the program below is to allocate memory using own new operator. I have to throw exception on 5th object allocation and recover by freeing up memory (strange question i know, but it is assignme...

Oh my sanity.
 
"Make a SAN check"
 
So is this how my questions get downvoted? Someone posts a link and the mobs mindlessly attacks? Is it indiscriminate? Can I wield it as a weapon?
 
I only downvote crap.
 
@SSight3 The linked question isn't being downvoted.
 
1:57 PM
We just make fun of them.
And then maybe something constructive about it, if we're not too busy laughing.
 
@LucDanton Awww.
 
Dammit I can't find the name of that US Project to open channels with nuclear bombs.
 
TV channels? "Tonight at 11, KABOOOM."
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Project Ploughshare.
 
@CatPlusPlus No, those things with rivers.
 
1:58 PM
Oh, it's an operation.
 
(Nuclear explosions look pretty cool, though. From an appropriate distance.)
 
:Not to be confused with the anti-nuclear Plowshares Movement. Project Plowshare was the overall United States term for the development of techniques to use nuclear explosives for peaceful construction purposes. The phrase was coined in 1961, taken from Micah 4:3 ("And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more"). It was the U.S. portion of what are called Peaceful Nuclear Explosions (PNE). There w...
 
I don't follow what crazy things US is doing, really.
 
Why do you think it's crazy?
(It is.)
 
I take it you like nuclear things then catplusplus?
I bet that makes receiving gifts difficult.
 

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