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I look at the updates and there's mention of a raytracer. What?
 
Heh, apparently it's the name of some component or stage in the toolchain.
 
^ Latin speakers
 
12:17 PM
quantum computing is strange.
 
"At this stage, magic happens, then we have the right result."
 
First, you type in the problem. Then, some wtf bullshit occurs that we completely don't understand at all. Then, the result appears on the screen.
 
@DeadMG I am surprised the human race hasn't:
A) Killed itself using something it does not understand or
 
@DeadMG have u tried it?
i think snowflakes are computed quantum-mechanically
 
B) Cause itself problems with the inventions it never comprehends
 
12:20 PM
they're weird
 
uh
 
@SSight3 What do you think global warming is?
 
@DeadMG OOH OOH I KNOW
 
you mean like, the whole nuclear warheads thing?
 
long range macroscopic ordering where no effects should be able to travel (across the flake)
 
12:21 PM
@DeadMG Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. - Arthur C. Clarke.
 
> Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology. - Larry Niven.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Disproven? Met office forecasted a warm winter. Piers Corbyn used sun modelling techniques, and correctly predicted a snowstorm/cold winter for the UK.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Isn't that insufficiently advanced?
 
@SSight3 And?
Someone got a wrong weather prediction, and someone else got it right.
 
12:23 PM
the point was that the guy who called it based on the Sun was right
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Met office used CO2 models. Piers Corbyn used solar activity cycles. It implies the global warming influences were not true.
 
whereas the guy who called it based on "amagad global warming" got pwned
 
The met office even revised itself and went with his mini-ice age concept. I'll link.
 
wtf, does MSVC support/understand GCC-style __attribute__ syntax?
 
12:24 PM
@jalf not afaik
 
this line compiles just fine though: static unsigned local_section_id __attribute__ ((unused)) = <stuff here>
confused
 
@SSight3 (I have no idea what a CO2 model is, but well...) Or it implies that you can't predict weather solely based on CO2 models.
 
hmm, doesnt' compile if I just try it in a new project. Must be some magic somewhere in our build settings
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Basically, CO2 modelling tries to predict weather events based on CO2 models. They had gone with that CO2 traps heat, ergo, it makes the planet warmer (you will often see articles referring to expanding deserts, warmer seas, melting ice caps etc). But the problem is, it wasn't a warm winter. It was an extremely cold one (2010-early 2011) that caused havoc in both the US and the UK.
 
@jalf can you post a complete demo prog?
 
12:28 PM
@SSight3 "CO2 modelling tries to predict weather events based on CO2 models."
 
@SSight3 Climate != weather.
 
That really explains what a CO2 model is.
 
the problem with the UK is quite exposed
 
And I don't see how a right/wrong weather prediction proves/disproves anything.
 
we get Atlantic weather AND Arctic weather AND we can get systems up from the Mediterranean
 
12:29 PM
@LucDanton So climate has no impact on temperature?
 
and global warming does not mean everything everywhere gets uniformly warmer all the time
2
@SSight3 it does, but so do a million other things
 
Anyway, if you want a proven instance of "B) Cause itself problems with the inventions it never comprehends", take CFCs and the ozone layer.
 
@jalf The name implies that. That is what they have been stating. Shall I quote the warmer winter? Which we know is not true. Even by 2009 standards it was not true.
 
@SSight3 it is badly named. So what?
 
or how about plastics and that they never degrade?
 
12:30 PM
There are more winters out there.
 
@jalf Warmer winter.
 
There are more winters to come.
 
your mother's to come
ahem
 
And I know so many people keep wanting to believe it, but failing to believe what people are telling you does not automatically mean that their message is incorrect
 
12:31 PM
Even the telegraph noticed the inconsistency.
Failing to prove it (post-hoc fallacy) would make it incorrect.
 
@SSight3 bwuh?
@SSight3 so if I fail to prove that the sky is blue, then it can't possibly be blu?
 
Yes. It could be black (night-time) or red (dusk).
 
The sky is red.
 
Or green if it's during an aurora.
 
the Godel proof proves that there are mathematically true statements which cannot be proved to be correct in any consistent system
@SSight3: It could be. But it could be blue.
 
12:32 PM
On Mars.
 
@SSight3 That's not the point though.
 
The point is, there's a chain of causation that must be established. I don't prove that moneys with guns change the weather, but it could be correct, right?
 
@SSight3 and therefore it is proven that it cannot be blue?
 
the fact that you didn't prove it doesn't mean it can't be correct
 
@jalf It was. The CO2 model was wrong.
 
12:33 PM
Gosh.
 
@SSight3 that chain of causation is trivial to establish, though. It was established a long time ago
 
not really
 
It was even inconsistent with the pattern supplied.
 
the CO2 model only calls for a general warming
not for any given winter to be warmer
 
So why did they fail at predicting the winter?
But a man who uses solar activity got it right?
 
12:34 PM
Because weather prediction sucks in any case.
 
@SSight3 BECAUSE THE LEVEL OF CO2 DOES NOT TELL YOU THE TEMPERATURE DURING WINTER
 
And he's not even part of the official body.
 
uh
 
I really want the winters to be gone.
 
because it's one winter
 
12:34 PM
There are too many variables involved.
 
He predicted the weather.
 
and the CO2 model doesn't even call for temperatures to rise every winter
 
@SSight3 yes, so did I, yesterady
yesterday*
 
Okay, explain to me why CO2 would not impact weather?
 
12:34 PM
but you need to do it all the time for it to mean something
 
@CatPlusPlus Become rich and change hemispheres every 6 months!
 
And I dojn'
 
@jalf He did it 8 months in advance/
 
we didn't say CO2 didn't impact weather
 
@LucDanton But I don't like and am too lazy to travel. :(
 
12:35 PM
only that it is not the sole determinant
 
@SSight3 So what? I can do it 3 years in advance
if we can accept a reasonable failure rate
sometimes I'll get lucky
 
Can you do it right 3 years in advance?
 
Yes.
I just need to be lucky.
 
@CatPlusPlus Well you can move once to a non-temperate region then. But don't do it right now, just do it later. There, I also took laziness into account.
 
lol
 
12:36 PM
But the thing is, and I'm sorry if this bursts your FOX-news-induced bubble of selective reality, that historically, the level of CO2 in the atmosphere has correlated with rises and declines in temperatures. Whereas solar activity has not correlated with temperatures
 
@DeadMG You did: "@SSight3 BECAUSE THE LEVEL OF CO2 DOES NOT TELL YOU THE TEMPERATURE DURING WINTER"
 
The real question should be: "Can you do it right for ten years straight?"
 
Of course sometimes they coincide, and sometimes other factors dominate
 
Either it impacts the weather, and can tell you something, or it does not, and cannot.
 
but the general trend is so clear that you have to be bribed heavily by big oil not to see it
 
12:36 PM
something != the temperature during winter
 
Lots of stuff impact the weather.
 
@LucDanton It's provably easier for winter to change planets, than for me to move anywhere.
 
You can't base yourself on a single one.
 
the thing about science is they have this thing called "logic". Coudl you please look it up before all my remaining brain cells drain out through my ear?
 
ok, I give up, we've been re-iterating the same crap here for like 20 minutes
 
12:37 PM
@jalf Poisoning the well fallacy. Green energy companies would benefit from claiming CO2. If I scare you about snakes to sell snake oil...
 
I'm gonna go buy some trip chocolate cookies
 
@SSight3 er, no
 
@jalf Ad hominem. Solar activity cycles have a logical cause. Look it up.
 
Oh right, conspiracy.
 
because I didn't base my argument on you, or anyone else, being bribed
 
12:37 PM
@jalf Why not?
 
I just said that the trend is very very clear to see
and then I called those who refuse to see it corrupt idiots
 
We should all switch to nuclear power, anyway.
 
but that's not a fallacy
 
@SSight3 A personal attack is not an ad hominem. An ad hominem is using a disparaging statement to make a point.
 
12:38 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes A retort. So it's a conspiracy big oil companies oppose CO2, but companies wouldn't profit from CO2 product lines?
 
@SSight3 and who's got the most money? Let's play along with your conspiracy. Who can put the most money into this kind of global conspiracy? Big oil, or a goddamn windmill manufacturer?
 
Who said it's a conspiracy big oil companies oppose CO2?
 
Vaccines are pharma corps conspiracy!
 
@LucDanton Ad hominem is 'against the man', hence the name. Saying I have flawed logic does not actually address my argument. Red herring, if you really wish to be accurate.
 
They want to kill everyone!
 
12:39 PM
I have a question
 
"You claim you have the answer, but what do you really know? You're a woman" is an ad hominem. "I'm done talking to you, you're stupid" is not.
 
if magnetic metamaterials can bend magnetic field lines
 
Me too. What's this discussion about?
 
shouldn't it be possible to bend them such that they can never return to the source and make them a non-closed loop?
or that they are focused, like a magnetic laser?
 
@SSight3 it is a known fact that big oil opposes anything that would hurt their business. And it's known that they put a lot of money and a lot of resources into lobbying for this point of view. That's not a conspiracy theory
 
12:39 PM
Because I'm throwing silly remarks, but I don't really get the topic.
I can throw more accurately silly remarks if I know the topic.
 
@jalf Amount of money does not matter. Both sides can have vested interest. What about carbon taxation? Governments stand to profit. But do note, it was companies who caused this in the first place... not humans.
 
cause if you could focus magnetic fields, then you could increase their density during power generation
and increase electricity generated from a given source
 
and it doesn't matter, because the fact that CO2 has an effect on climate does not depend on whether or not big oil like it
 
@SSight3 Amount of money is critical.
 
> Never throw shit at an armed man.
 
12:40 PM
Never attack an armed man with a banana.
 
@SSight3 if you want to spread the word, buy politicians and special interst groups, then yes, money absolutely matters
 
> Never stand next to someone who is throwing shit at an armed man.
 
but again, that is completely missing the point
 
@SSight3 Ad hominem fallacy. If the personal attack is not used to make a point, it's not a fallacy.
 
@DeadMG To determine vested interest? Solar power companies are making a large start-up in the UK on this. They have expansion potential.
 
12:40 PM
You big dummy.
 
because the point is quite simply science. We have a model which works, and a model which does not work
 
so can you print any Unicode character, like Chinese, to the console using wchar_t type?
 
and I really don't give a shit if my government profits. They could really use the money.
 
just reading up on Unicode and character encodings
 
And whatever you choose to believe, luckily 99% of the world's scientists choose to go with the model that works
 
12:41 PM
@CatPlusPlus never even attack an unarmed man with a banana
 
@TonyTheLion Depends on the console and what's in wchar_t.
 
@SSight3 What about it? Are you saying that governments couldn't find a way to raise taxes if global warming was debunked?
 
@SSight3 Except oil companies are already massively richer than them. Potential != physical cash.
 
@DeadMG You assume the profits are used for a noble goal. Consider the expenses scandal. Or, if you're in the US, 'campaign funds'.
 
Windows console is pretty crappy, and trying to make Unicode work with it is a waste of time.
 
12:41 PM
@CatPlusPlus Windows console
 
That as the dumbest claim I've heard in a dumb discussion
 
meh
 
@jalf They would have trouble justifying it, yes.
 
the government has a massive, massive budget
 
OTOH, wchar_t is pretty crappy, too.
 
12:42 PM
@CatPlusPlus oh ok
 
the expenses scandal in the UK concerned relatively tiny sums of money
 
@jalf What alternative taxation would you propose?
 
@CatPlusPlus would it work in a Linux environment?
 
@SSight3 Governments can tax whatever they want.
 
12:42 PM
@TonyTheLion Maybe. It probably would've need to be UTF-8.
 
@DeadMG It's an example. If it's with small sums of money, what is to say with larger ones?
 
@SSight3 so you're claiming a global conspiracy by governments across the world, to come up with a fake doomsday scenario, just in order to raise taxes?
@SSight3 a "we need money" tax
 
^ Self-defense against fruit.
 
@SSight3 People notice larger sums of money.
 
@jalf OMG. Someone please make a movie out of it.
 
12:42 PM
@CatPlusPlus hmmm
 
@jalf Slight modification to that.
 
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: The Bananawood, a pioneering conspiracy film industry. [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq]
 
so let me get this straight. you're saying that (1) because governments need to come up with something to tax, and (b) because we've had occasional cold winters, CO2 has no effect on climate
that is....
 
@jalf Groups of corporations who would profit selling solutions that do not appear to viably work very well. Consider the UK is establishing additional nuclear power plants... money for said companies, with technically no CO2 emissions (or minimal compared to oil/coal powers).
 
12:45 PM
I don't know what it is
 
Can we get back to the regular programming here?
 
but it makes my brain hurt and my faith in mankind dwindle
 
@CatPlusPlus We can.
 
Thank you.
 
> The ways of being human are bounded but infinite.
 
12:45 PM
I'll just leave a link to Skeptics here.
 
@jalf If it's any help, I am for sustainability, but not just anti-CO2. It's like a hammer to a tiny screw in a machine that has nails. Environment pollution with toxins, for example.
 
If anyone wants to continue this deep discussion.
About something.
 
Sure
 
@SSight3 I don't care what you're for. What worries me is that you are apparently anti-science and anti-facts
 
so UTF-8 is multibyte character encoding, but is UTF-16 also multibyte or just 2byte only?
 
12:46 PM
What useful functions should std::vector std::string
 
hellos
 
UTF-16 is fixed size only for BMP codepoints.
 
@TonyTheLion Multibyte.
 
@jalf Poisoning the well. I'll leave it at that.
 
@LucDanton oh right
 
12:47 PM
UTF-32 is always fixed size.
 
What does "poisoning the well" mean?
 
@CatPlusPlus now the codepoints are just the hexadecimal representations of the character right?
 
Example of a "poisoned well" attack from a [[Fox News-affilated website. [http://nation.foxnews.com/bill-clinton/2011/09/20/impeached-president-says-global-warming-deniers-embarrass-america]|thumb|right]] Poisoning the well (or attempting to poison the well) is a rhetorical device where adverse information about a target is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say. Poisoning the well can be a special case of argumentum ad hominem, and the term was first used with this sense by John Henry Newm...
 
@TonyTheLion Codepoints are sequential numbers assigned to the characters.
 
@SSight3 you're not a well, and I haven't poisoned anyone or anything. I am merely pointing out that you cling to a viewpoint that doesn't work, doesn't fit our observations, while claiming that there can't possibly be anything to the one that works, simply because we've had a cold winter
 
12:48 PM
Character is an abstract concept — it has a name and a set of attributes.
 
a fact that is completely and utterly unrelated to the model you claim it debunks
 
Well, codepoint is an attribute, too.
 
@CatPlusPlus oh, so it's not the encoding itself?
 
if you want to call that "poisoning the well", then so be it
 
I cline to a viewpoint that does not fit your observations, because your observations did not fit the events that unfolded.
 
12:50 PM
Is there a name for the logical fallacy of repeatedly claiming logical fallacies upon the arguments of others?
3
 
@TonyTheLion Codepoint is the decoded representation of a character.
Unicode text is a set of codepoints. Encoding is transforming this into a stream of bytes.
 
@CatPlusPlus decoded as in, what you see on the screen?
 
Decoding is transforming a stream of bytes into a codepoints.
 
@SSight3 His observations never said anything about each and every individual winter.
 
No, the screen is irrelevant.
 
12:51 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes No. But calling someone anti-science and anti-facts is pointless, because even if I was, (even if I was chewbacca with white hair), it does not mean what I am saying is right or wrong. One has to prove it, not merely 'name call'.
 
@CatPlusPlus oh right, so what does the translation of the code point into what shows on the screen then
 
To display a character, you need to first have a decoded, unique representation, i.e. the codepoint.
 
No one has to prove anything.
 
For displaying you've got fonts, which are set of glyphs.
 
oh right, and I guess the glyphs will match up with the code points?
 
12:52 PM
Each font has a mapping, that allows you to pick a correct glyph (a graphical representation of a character) for a given codepoint.
 
right. oh that makes sense now
 
no, for each character
some codepoints are collating, remember?
 
collating?
 
@DeadMG The observations I refer to are those of the given climate change. earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/GlobalWarming "Global warming is the unusually rapid increase in Earth’s average surface temperature over the past century primarily due to the greenhouse gases released by people burning fossil fuels"... which would imply what about winters?
 
Er, no.
 
12:53 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes There's the fallacy fallacy, but that's not exactly appropriate.
 
@SSight3 the event that you're concerned about has nothing to do with the effect that CO2 is claimed to have. Therefore I ignore it
 
Modifying characters are drawn separately.
 
he means like e followed by ´
 
@SSight3 It would imply that WINTERS IN GENERAL are getting warmer.
 
once again, CO2 and global warming does not mean, or imply "warmer winters"
 
12:53 PM
They're composed by the renderer.
 
not that EVERY winter is warmer.
 
in fact, the term "global warming" isn't widely used any more, and hasn't been for a long time, because it is misleading
 
@DeadMG Except we have seen a much colder winter, which would imply data is missing somewhere.
 
not at all
 
Instead people who have a clue normally call it climate change, not warming
 
12:54 PM
one single much colder winter proves nothing
 
"Climate change" is getting more common.
 
it's statistically irrelevant
 
@jalf Then you may wish to update nasa on that.
 
Global warming is just referring to the effect of the global climate changing due to whatever it is that causes it
that's what I know
 
@DeadMG We have had two in a row, the 2010 colder than the 2009 one.
 
12:54 PM
lol
 
Wow.
Two in a row. OMG.
 
@SSight3 and that is relevant how, exactly?
 
But at the most basic level, rendering a text is transforming a set of codepoints to a set of glyphs, and then displaying those. Of course, the real thing involves a lot of different things, like kerning or handling mentioned composing characters.
 
even two in a row is still pretty much nothing
 
the only thing sure about climate change is that the ice is melting about everywhere. the rest is pretty much unreliable imho.
 
12:55 PM
maybe if we had 20 in a row
 
No one EVER claimed that higher levels of CO2 would make every winter warm.
 
I flipped a coin and it came up heads twice in a row, therefore the coin only has heads on each side
 
@jalf It's gradually getting colder, not warmer.
 
er, no
what do you base this on?
 
Eh, don't mention statistics to me, I'll have an exam from this soon.
 
12:55 PM
@CatPlusPlus oh ok
 
the ice melting affects warming
 
Even I know 2 cases is not a viable statistical sample.
 
and, the years in general are trending upwards
 
@jalf 2010 is colder than 2009. Please check.
 
12:56 PM
8 of the hottest 10 years ever recorded in the UK being from 2000-2010
 
So, it's getting colder. Maybe that's the reason I am having 30+ºC temperatures at the end of October (yes, this is my anecdotal evidence. Please refute it. )
 
@SSight3 check how, and where, and why should we assume that one year being colder is a trend?
 
@DeadMG Out of how many years? 100?
@DeadMG So it was warmer 100 years ago? Why?
 
uh, the record goes back about 150 years, I think
for every individual year
 
@SSight3 may reasons. One of them is the higher level of CO2 in the atmosphere
 
12:57 PM
I mean, actual human records, not ice cores or something
 
@jalf Back 100 years ago?
 
no, today
which is why we've seen a lot of high-temp years recently
 
And back 100 years ago there wasn't as much CO2 in the atmosphere, so it's probably a good indicator.
 
@jalf dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2043617/… But it was hotter before 100 years ago when CO2 production was minimal?
 
let's be completely fair here
 
12:58 PM
^ chicken with slices of chili butter
 
500 years ago, it was still warmer than it is today
 
@SSight3 you know, I'm sorry to burst your bubble
 
significantly so, I believe
 
BUT BRITAIN IS NOT THE WORLD
 
and that
 
12:58 PM
@SSight3 No, 100 years ago there was a hot day. How relevant is that.
 
When people talk about global warming, they do not mean "britain is getting hotter"
 
Britain has one of the most variable climates, I believe
 
@jalf - surely not? that's not what my history teacher said!
 
because we have so many major influences
 
@AlfPSteinbach Is chili butter a real thing? (Uh sorry about the typo, too much climate talk.)
 
12:59 PM
Now, does that article say that every part of the world was hotter throughout that year 100 years ago, than any time since then?
 
@jalf Okay, so then we need the temperature readings spanning those 100 years globally, the problem is, such would be unreliable beyond even 50 years ago.
 
@LucDanton chili, not chilly. yes.
 
If it is unreliable, how can one be sure?
 
You seem sure.
 
chilly butter is caused by a global cooling of my fridge
 
12:59 PM
we use ice core data
 
@SSight3 sure of what?
 
they're not unreliable
 

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