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8:00 PM
I'd rather have include stop warning when it doesn't work so it can actually be less annoying
 
include is still useful for quick and dirty scripts
I still use include in a lot of one-off type things
 
@Girgias require is identical to include except upon failure it will also produce a fatal E_COMPILE_ERROR level error. In other words, it will halt the script whereas include only emits a warning (E_WARNING) which allows the script to continue.
 
@ln-s I know what they do
 
I know you know
 
@NikiC Or we type error, which would mean we could still optimize those opcodes.
 
8:02 PM
If I want to include a cache file I don't care if it doesn't exist
 
@Girgias to much work to do if file_exists ?
 
Race conditions
 
... anyway, any of y'all really actually use include or require? Since using autoloading I've never used any of them anymore, I think
 
yeah but I think the point is in a prod app you're gonna wanna file_exists first
 
@Girgias That much I don't know, race conditions ?
 
8:03 PM
That inbetween your file_exist call and your inclusions the file got deleted for some reason
i.e. a race condition
 
@IluTov I guess
 
I/O is messy and will always be because of the world
 
Not sure how important it is now that we have the tracing jit
Of course it would make things simpler
 
Yeah idk I'm not on that scale
 
@Girgias so I suppose include uses flock internally to prevent said conditions ?
 
8:08 PM
@ln-s What? No?
 
then how would a race condition be avoided while the file is being opened from the PHP engine and said file being deleted while it's being read ?
how is it different from my file_exists approach
Im trying to understand
I suppose that the reason is that file_exists is slow vs opening something directly from the engine is a lot faster hence there's only a very slight chance that a race condition would happen ?
 
file exists and opening the file are two separate actions (so something/anything could get in between those actions and remove the file)
So even if you do file_exists include could still fail because the file doesn't exist anymore
 
but if you open it and you delete it while it's open, what happens
up to the FS or what
 
You are not opening it. You just check if it exists
process one (your-script.php)                process two (some random thing that runs)
file_exists -> yes
                                                              delete file
require file -> boom
 
yeah it's in the middle
was thinking of this
But it works
 
8:18 PM
peehaa_exists -> sorta
 
lol
 
That's not a race condition though
@StatikStasis Somewhere somehow
In some state :P
 
sometimes =)
Glad to see you on!
 
@PeeHaa That is what I was pondering about what would happen in that case
 
Stuck at work doing budgeting til midnight. =/
 
8:19 PM
@Girgias Hey sorry I just really wanted to understand what you said
 
No clear example of umask() utility ・ Filesystem function related ・ #80885
 
+ thanks @PeeHaa
 
@ln-s A. stop pinging people for random things. B. what PeeHaa explained
 
@StatikStasis Living the life! :P
 
woot!
 
8:22 PM
I'm stuck trying to write coding "challenges" for our new potential hires
It's actually hard to come up with stuff
 
Hiring people?
 
PHP related coding challenges?
 
Hmm... I saw something not long ago... let me find.
 
Yeah we are looking for new dev(s)
And support people
 
Write a function that is traversable, the function must not return an array
 
8:25 PM
@PeeHaa You may have watched this before- I have linked right to the time where Joel gave the guy a problem to solve. It's not thorough but you may be able to deduct something from this section or the series as a whole that will spark some ideas. youtube.com/watch?v=qXZ75Ds5vOs&t=27m
 
So I just encountered JetBrains' GDPR cookie prompt for the first time and it's adorbs as hell. I didn't even mind clicking on "Fuck off".
 
...maybe not. =)
 
@Sara The terminal like div ?
 
@StatikStasis I want to answer it myself now after he asked what he is asking
But need to write code :(
 
A simple solution to your problem would be to simply paste a piece of code and ask what it does to the candidate
Plus you can actually grabs snippets of code from what they are going to work with, so it's not some random abstract thing
 
8:31 PM
Yeah +100 on that last thing
 
Thanks
 
yw :P
Abstract things are the worst
 
yeah they are if it's not a real thing example
I don't take jobs before I can look at the code, it's been some years I'm at the same spot, people refuse :D
 
I am mostly the same
 
Perhaps you should show the candidate what he is going to be facing
an overview
when he passes the test
So he can really make a choice
 
8:35 PM
We are pretty upfront about the fact we have a legacy thing going on (for now)
 
Show the legacy
 
Our thought was getting an actual piece of the legacy app in there, but it's really hard to ask them: yo, refactor this into something that is nice instead as it is a big undertaking
 
Right, you can't show the candidate 4 pages of code
Let me guess, monolith ?
 
My team's product is open source, which makes that nice :)
 
It being a monolith is fine
The actual code and what it does... needs some love
 
8:44 PM
@LeviMorrison Not saying anything about your proyect because I have no idea which project it is
But being open source is no excuse for the code quality being crap
Many examples out there
 
@LeviMorrison Do you guys do any form of filtering out people who just really cannot code?
 
@PeeHaa Yes. There is a take home project (that not everyone takes) and also an interview where they solve a curated problem.
 
Live coding?
 
Yes. It's not one of the horror stories of live coding, I promise :)
 
I have done many of those and never failed at a single one, but the fact is that I have developed for many years and they take a coding challenge to me, it feels like my reputation is being spit
 
8:48 PM
@ln-s Sadly, there are people who cannot code despite looking like they should be senior :/
 
That's exactly what we want to weed out
 
@ln-s Yeah, it's cute as...
 
By talking to someone you can absolutely tell that
The key is, that you don't ask too much, you don't lead the person
Just a broad general question, how would you do X
@Sara Well at least they made it somewhat appealing
@PeeHaa If you ask too much you lead the person
 
We mostly got the non technical questions nailed down
 
Design an hypothetical system live, just through talking
 
8:52 PM
Don't want to make the tech questions too broad as them spending too much time on it
 
You wanted to cut out the weed tho
 
@PeeHaa What kind of coding? PHP?
 
If the question is have you ever used doctrine? That's just a bad question
 
Or SQL or what will be their primary language?
 
"Yes, great"
 
8:54 PM
@LeviMorrison Yeah
 
THEN you could make the person sketch said hypothetical system
recording the conversation is a good idea
 
@PeeHaa Entry, middle, or senior?
 
medior
But it needs to be stupid simple. It's more a disqualifying tool for us than anything else
 
If it's middle then what @LeviMorrison said is completely fine
Seniors will ditch you off with coding challenges
 
Basically for those people who are saying "I was a senior lead developer at company X and it was all great", but cannot write code for shit
 
8:56 PM
At least the really good ones with their own projects
With code published on a public repo and authored by them
 
For a senior dev I'm more interested in knowing how they've solved previous problems.
 
^
 
We ask that question multiple times
 
@PeeHaa Do you have some problem solving questions independent of coding yet?
 
I'm interested in their public repositories
 
8:57 PM
Asking that too ^ :)
 
I couldn't care if they have a bunch of code on github, a senior coder will often spend all their time solving business problems, and most businesses don't commit their code in public.
 
Asking them to design a simplified version of whatever product you make is a good way to see how good of a fit they are for your specific org.
 
hmmmm
 
Not code it, though.
 
If they have some, sure, but to treat it as a major factor in a hiring decision is a foolish choice.
 
8:57 PM
If you have an open source project besides your regular private bussiness project that shows a lot
In my opinion
 
@MarkR We mostly use it the other way around. If they share a link and it's awful we know what we are going to (not) get :)
 
@ln-s That's why I enjoyed it. They made an effort to not make it awful.
 
A calculator app doesn't tells me anything
@Sara Agree
 
It can tell you a lot of things though
 
Actual coding problems are hard. I'm not sure what I'd do for a middle person in PHP; only hired junior people for pure PHP positions before.
For those I asked people to read some 1 pager snippets and walk me through the code and ask what high level problem it's doing.
 
9:00 PM
I kinda like that
 
That makes sense
 
But, mid and high level people will breeze through them. That's good to know, but it's still not watertight that they can write code.
 
I would completely fail a technical coding interview .
 
I can read Python, Ruby and a few other languages pretty well because I've had to do it over the years for various reasons, but I doubt I would do well if I had to live-code in Python or Ruby.
 
I would fail a coding interview also.
 
9:03 PM
Social pressure, or what? Why would you fail them?
 
I do fine on coding interviews, but I tend to get rejected on fit.
Evidently profusive swearing during an interview is "unprofessional".
 
In those big companies, the interviews are about solving puzzles.
 
I personally loathe the pressure, it's like having sex with your gf and there's someone watching
Some enjoy it
 
You have to get good at stuff like that. And being able to present that in white boards.
 
@Sara Bunch of fucking wankers if you ask me
 
9:04 PM
I knew I excelled at whiteboard interviews long before I realized I was a sexual exhibitionist.
 
Some people get really good at stuff like that and get by. Without even knowing how to build anything.
 
@Sara Damn
 
lol
 
I'm not very well fit for pure comp sci, I'm an engineer primarily (BSc Hons Software Engineering) and my emphasis is on solving business problems, not necessarily algorithms
 
PHP coder by day
stripper by the night
 
9:05 PM
Stipper? No. You have to be clothed in order to strip.
 
@Sara Did you put the whiteboard down on the floor to give yourself an excuse to bend over or something? :P
 
@ln-s Do you ever pair program?
 
hahaha
@LeviMorrison Yeah quite often I pair code with my junior guy
 
Ooops. I dropped the marker.
 
@Sara hahaha
 
9:05 PM
@ln-s But never with someone more senior?
 
lol swearing
that just means you are passionate about the code
 
@LeviMorrison Yes a lot in the past, right now I'm more into my own thing and I'm the only senior
 
Man... I really miss Burning Man....
 
@Sara I used to do that a lot during highschool
 
I don't understand why would you feel weird having someone watch while you code then. You've done it in pairs before -- it's not much different.
 
9:07 PM
Some people dont get why we take code so serious.
 
But don't tell anyone, it's not like this is a public channel
@LeviMorrison
Sorry^
The watching and not saying anything
makes me extremely nervous
during intercourse the watcher just wanks off it's not like he will say anything, same case for live coding
 
Honestly, I should be at a point in my career where I can just not give any fucks, but I never learned how to not think of my codebase as my baby.
 
@LeviMorrison it's the same reason why giving a talk in front of an audience causes people to forget how to speak words.
 
Not quite, I'm greatly confident with audiences since they can talk back I actually encourage people to do so
 
Which means when some junior fuck, or worse... some senior fuck who should fucking know better fucks with my baby, I fucking tell them to fuck off with their fucking fuckery.
 
9:09 PM
You should never be nervous about speaking in front of people if you really know what you are talking about.
 
That did get me fired once, but I was fucking better off for it.
 
It's the silence what irritates me
 
In my experiences with live coding, there is communication both ways.
 
@Sara What got you fired
@LeviMorrison Challenges I did it was a silent watch ...
 
Telling my coworkers they fucked up.
 
9:09 PM
Jarring AF
 
I got written up for telling the managers they were full of shit lol
 
@Sara Well! +1000 on being honest
 
@ln-s They were weirdos then, I guess.
 
these are not coding managers
project managers in the company
 
@LeviMorrison Shopware are kind of weirdos so yeah
 
9:10 PM
@SalOrozco Once... my manager got up from his desk saying, "I'm off to the annual anti-harassment training", and I told him: "Good luck with that, Sugar Tits."
I'm honestly surprised I didn't get written up for that.
 
NO
I love you
omg xD
 
It's all about knowing your audience, I guess. :D
 
lol @Sara they provably really need you.
 
They didn't she was fired
Or maybe they did
 
Nah. Nobody is ever unreplacable.
 
9:13 PM
anyway, props on the sugar tits
 
Those folks didn't fire me.
 
@Sara It's a matter of cost.
 
Ah thought those were the folks
 
True.
 
Well nobody else really knows their product as you do. That is if you been there long enough.
It would cost them a lot to get someone else and wait till they are up to speed.
 
9:14 PM
In the case of that incident, I think I was in my first six months.
 
What's the most outrageous thing I did at work let me think
 
Force them to give u a raise?
 
Farting every 2 seconds since I was on keto eating 18 eggs a day plus protein shakes
And people complaining about it and me telling them to fuck off
 
YOU MONSTER
 
hunger strike till you got a raise lol
lol
 
9:15 PM
@Sara Good times
 
ohh man
that is nasty
lol
 
Well to be fair
the chair had a cushion which could hold the first batch of farts
then it would overflow
 
lol
 
I got called by management and they told me "we got a shitty siutuation" hahahaha
 
watch out for that guy
he smells
 
9:17 PM
Switched my diet a bit after that, later on I found out I was lactose intolerant so the shakes were causing most of the farts
good to know
 
haha
 
Ah yeah
 
You could have cut the eggs
there are some types of cheeses
that would give the same results
those aged dried cheeses lol
 
Another one ... there was this management guy who was a complete asshole, I printed out a target on a pic of him, since we didn't have darts we used butter knives
 
even more potent
 
9:18 PM
And a cardboard box so they would stick
problem is that the knives bounce
so
Flooding an entire city with SMS using 8 servers and telling them to add me as their buddy on messenger (back in the day) I got to 2000 contacts or so couldn't add more that was fun too
I claimed I had a cellphone guide for every person
it was funny as hell
Ah
Eaves dropping the LAN with ettercap and changing every NO to YES
We had this guy, Jerry who was one of those management assholes who say yes to everything, "can you make the monkey do a backflip eat a banana and dance to conga" YES SURE FOR TOMORROW! So I decided to take the matter in my hands and I switched every NO to a YES, it was awesome
the confussion, amazing times
 
9:34 PM
@NikiC seeing you didn't vote on fibers yet, do you think the idea I proposed recently about concurrency checks on objects is one I should draft an RFC on?
@Sara it's always trade-offs 😜
 
10:12 PM
My client could fire me, but then they'd have to do without my witty British comments, and no-one would want that.
 
@MikeM.
Are you the guy from rector ?
 
10:26 PM
Is there any better way to do this?

https://3v4l.org/fonBZ // Will not work
https://3v4l.org/auQqF //Will work but getSomething is mixed
 
php7.dll crash ・ *General Issues ・ #80886
 
@ln-s you have a problem with a static analysis tool, not the language.
 
@DaveRandom Hm ?
No the rector thing was a different question
I just wanted to tell the guy to stop spamming the PHP Developers group (personally)
 
"return type is mixed" is not true, some tool it declaring it to be that
 
it is 3v4l.org/auQqF I don't have : mixed I'm not on 8 yet
 
10:37 PM
ok so then answer to "Is there any better way to do this?" is "yes, use PHP 8" :-P
 
haha
interface Something is Whatever but I'm not allowed to redefine it on my other interface, so I wonder if there's a better way to do it
Does 8 supports this @DaveRandom
 
tho more helpfully, if you are looking for a way to tell a static analyser what you mean there may be a way
@ln-s PHP 8 allows return type variance, yes
the return type of an override has to be a sub-type of the parent because of LSP
 
Yep yep
ok cool thanks @DaveRandom
I'll stick to "mixed" since I'm in 7 (for now)
 
I'm not 100% clear on the exact versions/variants but I am very sure that you can do that in 8 :-)
 
Thanks again :)
 
10:41 PM
:-)
 
I was always telling myself "yeah I'm sure they solved this in 8 ..." you confirmed it
 
hahaha
 
anyway nn I have to go skin up :-P
 
cmb
@Jeeves sigh
 
10:47 PM
@cmb Isn't it called job security? :D
 
cmb
:D but actually I was referring to the Event Viewer output, which is absolutety useless
 
ah ok then :D
 
@cmb tangent but related: lately I have had a lot of drive-by dictionary attacks against open 3389/1723 targeting DCs, i.e. something where you can make direct auth attempts against AD from the internet, in all case the default event logger has been inadequate because logs names and not IPs
tl;dr Microsoft do not understand debug logging
 
11:12 PM
Could you imagine a drive by dictionary attack in real life
would be funny
 
lol
This guy kind of funny.
 
Dem thugs on a fast car yelling some words at you hommie
 
If he meant what i think he meant
 
I did I did
thug at the right seat holding a dictionary and reading while he be yelling
 
I imagined a 64 driving by and some cholos throwing out dictionaries at other gangs lol
 
11:15 PM
Hey that's pretty accurate too
TAKE DEM BOOKS CHOLO
 
f u ese learn a dam new word.
lol
 
hahaha
 
rest in peace "sleepy" cause of death, dictionary to the head lol
hardcover special edition
 
youtube.com/watch?v=-1W4xHNKvAk never get tired of this movie
 
that was very funny silly
i remember that
 
11:19 PM
the prison riot simulation scene is also great
 
"mom the meatloaf"
from another movie
 
cmb
@DaveRandom maybe they do, but they don't deem it necessary to debug, because there are no bugs ;)
 
@cmb the only way for me to obtain the IP address (which btw let me find and plug the hole in <3mins) was to enable a logging option that filled the disk in <4days because I obviously forgot to turn it off
I speak of a specific incident obv, but an incident that should not be possible :-P
I am well aware that >70% of the blame for this lies squarely at my feet as well btw
once I turned it on though I knew what I was looking for in Wireshark and it srsly took me less than 5 mins to fix, the frustration is that I have to install Wireshark (surely a basic packet cap tool in windows??) but more that there are log messages directly resulting from the event I am looking for that do not include enough info ffs!!!!11one
 
> One such performance improvement involved moving the logic to check a user’s enabled features into a background thread that refreshed on an interval rather than checking their enablement while the request was being processed.
 
11:37 PM
or why we learned to love the shared nothing in php
 
still on board with it tbh
well, now I feel foolish.
 
11:57 PM
@Danack Lovely. Thanks for sharing!
 
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