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sbi
@TonyTheTiger Yeah, go ahead and rub it in! :)
 
@sbi :)
 
@TonyTheTiger @Tony, please don't remind me
 
@Raze hehehehehe
 
I'm just learning how to use So chat :D
 
4:04 PM
@Raze lol
 
@TonyTheTiger , gotta configure one machine tomorrow...
 
@Raze ugh
 
sbi
@Raze Yeah. Welcome to the chat. Now you're doomed. You'll lose endless working hours and and large amounts of sleep, spending them here chatting away. (You have been warned, though.)
 
:708288, I have to log into a Windows machine from another one, and install stuff remotely. Thankfully, this time, the computers are not located halfway across the world like sometimes.
 
@sbi yep!
 
4:07 PM
Hey, what happened to that?
@sbi, thanks. been there... not with SO chat though... IRC days
 
sbi
@Raze You must have a space after the attribution, no comma, colon etc. You can still edit that message, though, and fix that!
 
@sbi, a message on tope saying "It is too late to edit this message"
 
@sbi can't fix history :p
 
sbi
@Raze Yeah, it's only a few minutes. (Is it 2 or 5?)
 
4:10 PM
@sbi, must be 2
You have to use the mouse to link this chat with another?
 
sbi
@Raze "...link this chat with another"?
 
I mean message. attribute this reply to a particular message.
 
sbi
@Raze Well, you can always type the number yourself, so you do not need the mouse to refer to some other message. However, I can't think of a way to find out a message's ID without the mouse. :-x
 
@Raze You can type the ID after :, but you have you hover the mouse over the target to get that anyway.
Ah, slowness.
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus I was faster!
 
4:14 PM
@CatPlusPlus are you slow again today?
can't you walk faster over the keyboard @CatPlusPlus?
 
I'm almost always too slow on SO. sob
 
@CatPlusPlus me too, esp when it comes to writing good answers
 
sbi
@TonyTheTiger He's a gato gordo. :)
 
@TonyTheTiger New job? May I ask which field?
 
sbi
@Nils Lemme guess: programming?
 
4:18 PM
like html programming?
 
Heathen!
Burn him on the heap!
 
programming is not a field, computer vision, graphics, databases, operating systems, enterprise applications, etc are
 
sbi
@Nils How so, if HTML isn't a programming language? :)
 
sure it's even Turing complete since HTML5 and CSS3
 
HTML alone isn't Turing complete. And CSS3 can be applied to different things.
 
4:20 PM
@sbi , :708335 , some reasons why I still like IRC.
 
Fuck I would NEVER contemplate doing HTML!!!!
@Nils programming
@Nils lots of stuff
 
sbi
@Raze It doesn't work this way. A message can only refer to one other message. To do so, it must start with a colon, followed by the message's ID, followed by a space.
You might want to read the newbie hints.
 
@sbi, I understood that, after I tried it of course :)
 
Also I'm not fat, just slow.
 
@sbi I don't know why people don't read them, when they are in plain sight
 
4:23 PM
@TonyTheTiger wasn't serious about html.. but what field enterprise stuff curious :D
 
sbi
@TonyTheTiger To be fair, they don't explain in as much detail as @Raze tries here.
 
@Nils ugh, depends really... backends for websites and NO not websites itself
 
@TonyTheTiger For the same reason people ask questions on SO that can be answered by looking in the docs?
 
@sbi so what, he should still read them :)
@CatPlusPlus oh true :)
 
sbi
@TonyTheTiger Yeah, of course, that's why I pointed them out.
 
4:25 PM
HTML5 Turing completeness github.com/elitheeli/oddities/blob/master/rule110-grid.html rule 110 is still on my to study list..
@TonyTheTiger ok
 
ok, going home, be back later
 
@Nils It's as useful as Malbolge.
Only bit more readable.
And writeable.
 
@TonyTheTiger , I don't agree. one should be able to jump start.
 
@CatPlusPlus it's useful, otherwise the proof would be much harder I guess. However I'm not really familiar with complicated theoretical CS proofs
 
@Nils Proof for what? Using CSS for stuff like that is not useful at all, for anything. There are already far more advanced apps in HTML using JS.
 
4:30 PM
proofing that it's Turing complete
and it's Turing complete if it can compute everything a Turing machine can, obviously this is a bit easier to show if you use the rule 110
 
It's still not proof about HTML, it can't be done without CSS or JS.
And it's still not useful for any practical purposes. :P
 
yes it needs css..
@CatPlusPlus not directly, however a bit of theoretical background never hurts.. otherwise you can go parsing html using regular expressions
 
@CatPlusPlus so aren't many programming languages out there.
 
@Raze Yes, and we don't care about them being Turing complete either. See Brainfuck or Malbolge.
 
im bored.. any fun programmiing challenges online?
 
4:37 PM
@CatPlusPlus or LOLcode or 1337speak or golfscript or shekespearan or cook's language.
and many of them were used in GCJ this year.
 
Als
hmm......
I am dizzy a bit, anyone care to help out explain what this does.....
int iSectLength = (0x100 * (pPkt[1] & 0x0F)) + pPkt[2];
oh Btw pPkt is unsigned char*
 
It grabs the 4 lower order bits of pPkt[1] (&0x0F), puts them on the first byte of an int (0x100*), and fills the second byte with pPkt[2] (+).
I think.
 
Why multiply instead of left shift?
 
Als
I have this legacy code....I don't know why this way
@MartinhoFernandes: im thinking.......
@MartinhoFernandes: It probably means it is extracting last 12 bits from a 16 bit data?
(&0x0F) masks out first 4 bits....0x100 shifts them left and then fill in the remaining 8 bits
@MartinhoFernandes: I think that makes sense to me now....It indeed does that.
@MartinhoFernandes: Thanks!
 
4:54 PM
@Als 12 bits from two 8bits.
You could copy only 12 bits by a single & operation with a constant.
 
Als
@Raze: Yeah, well it is a legacy code lying in the system
unchanged and high risk to modify
 
@Raze How safe would that be? You would have to consider both bytes at the same time. Problem is, the size of an int is not fixed.
 
@MartinhoFernandes uint16_t?
 
Oh that. Silly me.
 
iSectLength is an int anyway.
 
Als
4:58 PM
Well i never saw * being used for <<
 
But the outcome of using int and two chars would differ on little endian and big endian archs.
@sbi, this is addictive. How do I stop?
 
Als
@Raze: What are you trying to stop?
 
@sbi chatting here.
 
Als
:) Its addicting yes.... ;)
You've met few of the regulars I believe
 
@Als yeah.
 
sbi
5:02 PM
@Raze Well, I just had a call to get me off.
 
Als
@sbi: Well think of the devil(a.k.a GOM) & there he is
you cant keep away from here eh...
 
@sbi lucky you. I have no 'distractions' for another 10 hours.
 
error: template argument 13 is invalid
 
sbi
@Als I just figured out how to enable FF going beep when someone mentions me.
@Raze Believe me, you wouldn't want to trade this call for a year of work.
 
Als
@sbi: Set the audio notification level?
 
5:04 PM
@sbi do you have to do something to get that working?
 
Als
dont tell me you didnt knew that!
 
sbi
@Als Yeah, but I had to put this site of flashblock's whitelist, because the audio notification is flash-driven.
 
Als
@sbi: Aha! thankfully my workplace allows SO and SO chatlist
@sbi: ahh..sorry about that whatever you said
 
sbi
@Als (Wouldn't want to leave this info here for all eternity.)
 
Als
I read it before you deleted
@sbi: Yes...true..too personal
 
sbi
5:06 PM
@Als Flashblock is a pretty cool FF extension.
 
@sbi Oh.
 
Als
@sbi: I already switched to chrome...its faster!
 
@sbi yes it is. Though I don't use it much.
 
Als
Btw is this room still being moderated?
 
sbi
@Raze Yeah. I've just been to such an event last November.
@Als Has it ever been??
 
Als
5:08 PM
@sbi: Well the recorded rather?
 
@sbi I think you have to flag something for moderation and then someone will check it later.
 
Als
cant delete posts after some time....we still cant right
 
sbi
@Als Parse error.
@Raze Those someones are us. At least those with enough rep.
 
Als
@Raze: Uncle FAQ knows all....he literally owns the place :P:)
@sbi: How much is enough rep?
 
sbi
@Als No. I think you only can delete something as long as you can edit it.
 
Als
5:10 PM
@sbi: we could edit and delete old posts now theres a time limit to it after the whole @Tina thingy i believe
 
sbi
@Als I dunno. I have just below 50k and that's enough. I'd wager it's the 10k line that also allows you access to a lot of mod tools on SO proper.
 
There's always been a time limit AFAIR.
 
sbi
@Als No, that's wrong.
 
@Als can someone brief me?
 
Als
@sbi, @CatPlusPlus: perhaps...my mistake..Im dizzy u see :P
@Raze: update you on what?
 
5:11 PM
The @Tina thingy
 
Als
wheres our precious @TonyTheTiger? :P
@Raze: Long story, long forgotten even
 
sbi
@Raze @tina recently was banned from SO for half a year fro spamming us with stupid questions. Without asking us if we wanted that, mind you. We were all up and in arms about it for a day. Then Miss appeared and took her place. :)
 
Als
@sbi: Liked the ` Then Miss appeared and took her place.` :P
 
sbi
@Als On the way home, AFAIK.
 
Als
@sbi: You still working?
 
sbi
5:14 PM
@Als Well, we had seen through this after maybe three messages from her.
@Als I'm chatting.
 
:)
 
sbi
(But I'm still at work, if that's what you wanted to ask.)
 
Als
@sbi: haha, thats late
@sbi: I was at a bone breaking 10.30 hrs at work today:(
And then Im here now! talk of addictions!
 
sbi
@Als When I was young (TM), I once worked 100hrs in one week. As a programmer, using my head. And I even had a day off. Left the company soon after that, though.
 
@Als wow! I used to do that, then I stopped.
 
Als
5:16 PM
@sbi, @Raze: I cant really concentrate much after like 8.30 - 9.00 hrs of sincere work
it becomes lil too demanding on me mentally as well as physically
 
@Als I can't after 7 hrs (excluding breaks). I get way too restless.
 
Als
@sbi: What were you doing? One man team Army?
Darn, our bosses better be not here! lol
 
sbi
@Als Trying to meet a deadline. I even succeeded.
 
Als
@sbi: Well you the man!
@sbi: oh well You the grumpy man!
 
@Als I hope these messages get deleted after a sceen full or so lol
 
sbi
5:19 PM
@Raze I have some bad news for you: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/10
 
@sbi reminds me of last week. Had to work on Saturday too.
 
Als
@Raze: They don't.....so beware...and @sbi: seldom pulls of quite older ones
:P
@sbi, @Raze: Oh btw, I have earned my outspoken badge so I am allowed to be offically outspoken here now!
 
sbi
@Raze As I said, I quit that job. I worked their for 13 months and had so much overtime, they had to pay me for another 5.5 months. So I had the summer off. I've been watching out for such companies when interviewing ever since, though you often only learn about that later, after you work there for a while.
 
Als
@sbi: Looks like I joined in one of those! :(
 
@sbi some companies... I wish I could talk about my previous company, but the transcript is indexable by google. so...
 
sbi
5:23 PM
@Als That was one of the reasons I quit the job before this one: They expected everybody to do overtime most of the time, and nobody (but me) clocked their working hours. Officially, they were doing XP, and overtime was Boo!, but actually, the schedules were so tight, that people had to do overtime to meet the deadlines.
 
@sbi hey, you read my mind! XP and overtime.
 
Als
@sbi: I know i understand
 
@Als I'm here
 
Als
@Raze: If you noticed no one takes names or leaves personal information here
@TonyTheTiger: Aha precious! :)
 
sbi
Anybody know this: ea-spouse.livejournal.com/274.html? Joel put it into one of his books.
 
5:25 PM
@Als lol
 
sbi
That woman even got a Wikipedia page now: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EA_Spouse.
 
@Als yeah, I know that. Had been using IRC for some time, though not long enough to know it well enough ;)
 
Als
@TonyTheTiger: I am about to make a dash though...dead beat today
Have a good time @Raze, @sbi, @TonyTheTiger
 
sbi
@Als I have learned to say this right upfront, even before the interview: I. Don't. Work. For. Free. Ever.
 
Some people used to do overtime and Saturdays and Sundays continuously for a month.
 
Als
5:27 PM
Im off for the day guys! @sbi: I should learn that
 
@Als, adios for today
 
Als
Adios
 
sbi
@Als See you!
 
@sbi you meant free right?
 
@sbi You mean Free right?
 
sbi
5:28 PM
Haha, epic error!
 
hahahah :P
 
@sbi I told my current company, no overtime (except maybe just before a release).
 
sbi
I have spend weekends at work in the last decade. Sometimes that just happens, when a customer is important and a deadline is whooshing past. But that's once or twice a year. If it's more often, something's wrong, and I'm not willing to compensate for that.
 
@sbi if you have to work in the weekends you should get some weekdays off the following week
imho that's only fair
 
@sbi yeah. time lost is time lost. We don't get paid for overtime, we have to take comp offs.
 
sbi
5:31 PM
Don't get me wrong. I do make overtime. But I take the same amount of free time for that. I have twice taken money instead, in ten years, but that was an agreement the boss made with me. Otherwise it's time for time.
 
In my previous company, I was asked (or sometimes indirectly prompted) to do over time very frequently. At least once every two months.
 
I guess for me it doesn't really matter that much yet, no kids, no wife, no nothing
I have too much time anyways otherwise haha
 
@Tony, me neither. But I'd rather spend my free time playing the guitar or learning something useful or doing something else.
 
@Raze programming is learning something useful :)
 
sbi
@TonyTheTiger But you can do this on your pet projects at home, doing what you want most, not what your company can sell.
 
5:35 PM
@sbi true
 
@TonyTheTiger not always. And its not always programming. How about testing your programs yourself for example?
 
@Raze it's all part of it
 
@TonyTheTiger Its already unit tested code. I'm talking about QE tests, regression tests, all this to meet a release dead line.
 
sbi
Also, when I get interviewed for a job, it helps tremendously when I say that I haven't done unpaid overtime in 20 years. Interviewers realize whether that's true, and they do value you much higher when they realize you have been getting well-paid jobs with that attitude.
 
The product used to be released every year, and till date, there is no customer who wants it.
@sbi but over here, people don't generally get paid for OT. Many companies even ask engineers to put in only 8 hours in the time sheets.
 
sbi
5:39 PM
@Raze Yeah, here, too, most programmers do unpaid-for overtime. Which is exactly what makes the interviewers' jaws drop when I say I never did that.
 
@sbi but here, your work contract kinda requires you to do OT when the company requires you to.
 
sbi
@Raze Yeah, but your contract doesn't require you to work there. You can always leave.
 
: IMO, in those situations something's wrong. Either the company is understaffed, lacks organization, the industry is not actually feasible, or the workers are not skilled.
In any case, it's poor management.
 
@sbi yes, but most companies require you to do that over here. Haven't heard of anybody contest that in court, even though there are laws against it.
 
Honestly, in many cases where there's required OT, I find that employees are simply idle during regular hours. They are required to work 40 hours a week, because business can't handle fluid workweeks, and then when a situation arises and they "need" their employees... it's OT.
Kinda like a lot of times, they could reduce staff for most of the year, and hire contract workers during the quarter end....
The 40 hour workweek is really.... inefficient....
 
sbi
5:47 PM
@Raze Yeah, I can see that it's a problem when you have a culture where everybody always does overtime. But someone has to start to challenge it. Why not you? :)
 
I'd say for most people, they really work 25-30 hours a week.
10-15 hours are wasted.
Well, with more people working from home, scheduled work hours will be obsoleted for these positions eventually.
 
@sbi because the legals system here sucks?
 
@Raze QE tests?
@Raze where does the legal system not suck?
 
@TonyTheTiger : Where one doesn't exist?
 
sbi
@Raze Have you looked at that article I posted? Overtime seems to have been mandatory in the US game industry. Yet that woman put a notable dent into this "tradition".
 
5:55 PM
@Xaade hahah
@sbi we should praise her for that :P
 
@TonyTheTiger : Didn't one European country find this out in the manufacturing industry like 100 years ago.
Overexertion reduces productivity, even detrimental effects (like reduction in quality).

I think it's become obvious when games are released with so many bugs these days. Time crunch for games is seriously a problem.
Especially with movie related games.
Movie gets years to produce, then someone figures out they want a game for it, and the game gets a year or so.... and people wonder why the game sucks and no one wants to play it.
 
@sbi I'm talking about a system where I'll have to wait for years before a ruling is made.
 
sbi
@Raze Do you honestly believe that's different anywhere in the western world?
 
@sbi dunnoh. What will I do in those 20 years?
 
@Raze : You see... it's called "class action"..... You need to find some mates that agree.
Go in it alone, and you'll be a little bug waiting to be squashed.
Go in it with half the industry workforce, and a few news channels.... and you'll be international.
Just don't start a labor union.
They're obsolete in the tech age, and all they lead to is workers being the slaves of union rather than the company.
 
6:09 PM
@Xaade Optimist.
 
ZOMG...... I'm freakin addicted to V8 now.
 
@Xaade again, there are laws against it. Neither my company, nor my manager has compelled me to do OT, that too without componsation, but I know too many people who do it.
and people here are kinda used to working that way.
 
@Raze : WAH..... then why are we having this discussion.
If there are companies that don't ask for OT... then work there.... problem solved.
@AProgrammer : You think I'm overreaching..... I suppose one could ask what I'm doing right now.... However, since I found this chat, I've developed an uncanny ability to multitask thoughts.
 
I get 'comped'. But I wasn't always working here. It wasn't always easy.
 
@Raze find another job..... request more off-time.... etc.
 
6:14 PM
Gotta go... bye all. I'll be back tomorrow most probably.
Nice chattin here.
 
6:28 PM
huh, Neil Butterworth is back on SO now, under his real name and everything?
 
@Xaade No. I was serious when I wrote that I think you are an optimist in thinking that people are really working 30h/week.
 
sbi
@jalf Is he?
 
could be an impostor, of course
 
sbi
@jalf I doubt it's an impostor. Neil's been known to disappear from Usenet in frustration, coming back after a while.
 
I remember that cvsfix was one of his projects
 
6:38 PM
@sbi yeah, I also doubt there are many people who'd consider it worth their time to impersonate a programmer
it kind of lacks that special star power
 
High risk, low reward :)
 
@jalf Seems to be the same account as was ('til recently) known as unapersson. He does seem to have the "chops", as well as (at least a bit of the same) attitude...
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin Indeed! Well spotted, that.
 
@JerryCoffin oh, so that's who that was
 
sbi
Look who is back and storming up the charts: http://stackoverflow.com/users/711998/neil-butterworth
 
6:46 PM
I was wondering about that account, actually.
whose twitter is that?
oh nm
 
sbi
@jalf Don't you know that acatar?! :)
 
yeah, that was my first thought, but the username confused me. He didn't seem like the kind of person who'd use a completely unrelated name on twitter
 
@AProgrammer : It wouldn't surprise me. It's crazy the stories my wife tells me. About having to babysit the outsourced workers.
@jalf : He tweeted himself?
Meta-tweet
 
sbi
@Xaade That is Martin York's avatar.
 
@sbi 4K rep after 26 days, damn.
 
6:51 PM
Eh.... tweeting.... most of them retweets anyway.... It's actually self-prophecy the whole bird icon. About as annoying too. No.... actually birds are less annoying; their sound is pleasant.
 
oh good, won't be long before I'm surpassed by Neil twice on the C++ chart
 
> I recommend to use STL containers for the business logic, and Qt containers only when it's needed for binding data to your GUI.
I am being downvoted because of above statement. Is it so wrong?
 
@jalf : No worry for me.... some retarded monkey surpassed me yesterday.
 
sbi
@Xaade Who's that?
 
@sbi : You're an ape.... and I'm being sarcastic. However, at 486 rep, it wouldn't surprise me.
 
sbi
6:54 PM
@Xaade 486, eh? Nice number. Neil does that on two days. :)
 
I know too little of too much.....
And my current job doesn't get me much past MFC and a little USE of STL
You could say I'm the king of intro.... I've gotten all the 101 classes down. Turns out that knowledge isn't all that useful.

I need to actually develop knowledge in SOMETHING.... instead of bouncing around.
 
@StackedCrooked That just a little short of reaching the cap everyday...
 
@AProgrammer : There's a cap?
 
200 a day
not counting accepted answer bonuses
 
@AProgrammer : Bad math.
@jalf : I guess they're afraid of someone hitting 10k in one day?
 

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