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9:31 PM
30 minutes until the SOCVR room meeting. Use the messages above to find a short FAQ for this event as well as the 5 topics we will be discussing.
 
10:00 PM
Hello everyone, and welcome to SOCVR's 4th room meeting. I'm gunr2171 and I'll be the MC for the event. We'll be unlocking the room in just a moment, we just need to get some stuff out of the way first.
General reminder: please be nice to each other. No biting, no name calling, and no unauthorized plopping while the event is in progress.
Please keep the conversation on topic, and the no one-box rule applies here. Please use stars sparingly.
Chat recently got a new feature: RO's can now put the room in timeout. We will be abusing using this to help mark the end of sections.
The room will be in timeout for 60 seconds after this intro, and for 2 minutes on each topic after we feel that there is nothing more to add to the conversation so that we can write up a proper conclusion.
I'll now turn it over to rene for some opening words.
 
A lot has happened since April. We have seen new members join and some regulars reduce their visits. Overall it was uneventful (it was, right?). We have done a couple of burninations, we have evaluated and established the burnination process on meta. We’ve had a long-standing wish implemented for a month or so, MOAR close votes!
The outcome was a learning experience for all of us. Our room members are both vocal and active on meta as well. We see the more focussed spin-offs Campaigns and SOCVFinder flourish with their dedicated crew and cross-overs. Those who want to moderate have enough options to choose from.
 
With that we will get down to business. We're hoping the five topics today will take 10 minutes each. Let's start with the first topic:
room mode changed to Public: anyone may enter and talk
Does the room/group need to be renamed to reflect the fact that it doesn't focus only on "Close" activity? source
This room was placed in timeout for 1 minute; first topic
 
No, it has no sense it will only create more confusion
 
(sorry, timeout did not apply)
 
"What's SO Moderation Reviewers? Is that a spin-off of SOCVR? What do they do?" I can see a rename getting messy.
 
10:05 PM
Oh wow it's quiet in here. I will say no for two reasons. First we did and still do mainly closing. Second the name SOCVR is already our name, so I would keep it.
 
I agree with that, we are now a brand
 
we also have the history of the name is something we don't want to mess with
 
@rene Like documentation?
 
I don't really see an upside to renaming. And there are plenty of downsides as mentioned.
 
SO Moderation Reviewers sounds like you'd be playing watchmen on the mods
 
10:07 PM
At best we can come up with is new meaning for the letters
 
I'd oppose pretty much any rename.
 
Our room started out as "we do the close vote queue", and we've expanded out from there, but close votes are still our primary thing
 
Hiya all! I'm πάντα ῥεῖ, the guy with the weird greek letters nick. I'm interested mainly to discuss the new thing here, though I'm still totally clueless how this is going to work currently.
 
@rene Stack Overflow CATS voting reviewers
 
@πάνταῥεῖ that is topic 5
 
10:10 PM
so are we in agreement?
 
Note, we only have 3 minutes left for this topic. Please make any final arguments. We need to get some resolution soon to keep on track.
 
don't fix what isn't broken?
 
@ryanyuyu there have been no arguments to change it
 
SOCVR shouldn't be renamed because it's (1) become a brand, and (2) isn't a problem.
I vote we move on.
 
Yes, resolution made
 
10:10 PM
There's no point to it - the name carries the correct spirit, people know it, and it's basically a brand.
 
This room was placed in timeout for 2 minutes; second topic
We are now writing up a conclusion to this topic. The next topic is:
Do we need more *-pls options directly in the CV-PLS userscript? source
 
What options are there currently?
 
cv-pls, reopen-pls
 
waffles
 
I'd mildly oppose adding those options, seems like they should be rare enough (if they're valid uses at all) to be done manually.
 
10:13 PM
the only one automated are cv-pls and reopen-pls.
 
@gunr2171 seems reasonable, I'm mistyping sometimes :)
 
Except maybe edit, I could see that.
 
I'd like for bad suggested edits. But if we don't want to moderate suggested edits as actively then it's not necessary.
 
seems waaaay too broad to be useful
 
Semantics: if more options were to be added, would it make sense to make them a separate userscript, so people can pick the scripts they want to use for moderation?
 
10:15 PM
@ryanyuyu yes, though most of the time one person can handle it with a "reject and edit"
 
@ryanyuyu Wouldn't mind having that, although it seems out of scope for a CV script. Semantics.
 
Well I really would appreciate one now :)
 
@ArtOfCode the options are not a problem, what we do with it might
 
@ArtOfCode Yeah, implementation detail.
 
More features aren't necessarily bad as long as they don't cramp the workflow. Maybe an "other" dropdown for the rare ones
 
10:15 PM
@Rizier123 More specific what it should be applied for?
 
@Quill and as long as they're something to room actually wants.
 
Rare events don't need more automation unless they're something that needs action now, rather than in an hour's time.
 
that ^
 
The option , for example are still welcomed in the room. You just need to type it. IMO, the other options are infrequent enough that you can just type them when wanted, there's no need to automate it.
 
The only thing that would qualify for that is spam/abusive - but isn't necessary because of Smokey.
 
10:17 PM
As a sometimes-lurking moderator, I wouldn't mind having reject-pls automated (and presumably more people using it). It's nice to be able to jump on those.
 
I agree with undo. While it is a "cv request" script, I think reject-pls would be a really good idea, for as infrequently as they show up
 
Yeah, sometimes it's easy to tell that an edit is bad, but it's hard/time consuming to come up with an actual improvement for reject-and-edit.
 
@Undo might be relevant for the next topic as well
 
If we do a reject-pls I feel there should also be accept-pls to maintain balance
 
10:20 PM
^ that makes sense.
 
What I was thinking, yes.
 
@NathanOliver Cases where rejections are urgent far outweight urgently-needed accepts, though
 
True
 
@NathanOliver also, we're trending too much into frequent suggested edit moderation at that point
also what undo said
Note, we only have 3 minutes left for this topic. Please make any final arguments.
 
Summary of my thoughts: (1) Yay on reject-please, meh on approve-please, (2) let the script name be a guide, not a rule, (3) nay on adding stuff to the script unless it's stuff the room actually wants to handle.
 
10:21 PM
So just do the rejects for the OMG THIS NEEDS TO BE NUKED?
 
(keeping in mind that it's a lot harder to remove than to add)
@NathanOliver or 2-2 ties on crap, etc.
 
We can implement it and test it for some time to see if we really need it.
 
Makes sense
 
We need to come up with a set of rules for that reject-pls (simple ones) but we can trial it.
 
@NathanOliver I'd say so. Similar high standard to cv-pls. Like having approval votes already on an obviously bad edit.
 
10:22 PM
alright, sounds good
 
Also, plagiarism because no one checks for plagiarism and it gets approved.
 
As a note, it could be nice to send report to edit monitor instead.
 
I think we got this one. Move on?
 
aye
 
Aye
... wow.
 
10:23 PM
:P
 
So, Yes we want to do reject-pls but we need to sit down and document the cases for such and then test
 
This room was placed in timeout for 2 minutes; third topic
We are now writing up a conclusion to this topic. The next topic is:
What is the line for reporting 'all spam' or 'all bad suggested edits' for a particular user? source
 
All spam isn't used much and cases happen on Stack Overflow where it isn't so binary
 
Very curious what a mod(Undo) says about this.
 
Smokey's !!/allspam command is intended for use when truly all of a user's posts are spam.
 
10:26 PM
If someone's posts are all spam, as in Australian university spam, then... they're all spam.
 
@ArtOfCode however, there are cases where people have got it wrong, or where it's used too aggressively.
 
Stats say that cases of allspam actually being used are few and far between, but... it's not user targeting if the user isn't legitimate.
 
@ArtOfCode is that also true for a user that linked to their blog for the last year on 100 answers?
 
@rene if their more recent posts are legit, then no. Report the spam, if it still lives.
 
If a user is a potential spammer then you can blacklist the user, but it's easier just to leave a mod flag then hinge on Smokey's allspam or blacklisting features
 
10:27 PM
In that ^ case, I'd probably prefer a single custom flag than trying to piece together what happened from eighty red flags.
 
All spam is for all spam. Clear-cut serial spammers of SAP training in Hyderabad, and the like.
 
If someone is obviously a spammer, not just a shameless website-plugger, redflag it to death.
 
Let's move to bad suggested edits, how about those?
 
If the user has legit posts, report the individual posts that are spam.
 
If a user is new and just posts clearly spam then use it; If it is half way legit either leave one comment or use a custom flag.
 
10:28 PM
If someone's been throwing links to their website in their answers for the last ninety years, throw a mod flag. Our tools are better.
anyway, question whether this is really a big problem.
 
1 min ago, by rene
Let's move to bad suggested edits, how about those?
 
@rene If they're objectively bad (plagiarism, etc.), I have no issues with a reject brigade going through their suggestions.
And ideally an 'other' flag.
 
But my problem is I link to user
 
So?
 
I would disallow the use of the !!/allspam or such from the room. It implies leaving a link to a user, and it implies that members needs to check the content of the user. This slips very easily to the tricky "but they're all spam" to the "moderate that user", "its comments", "its edit".... and it gets blurier. So the simple rule for me would be: no links whatsoever to user profiles. If allspam, report them as indivual posts, if all bad edits, reject-pls as individual posts.
 
10:30 PM
and so I'm not moderating a post
which is in our FAQ as a requirement for members
 
In these cases, a link to a user is a convenient way to link to a list of crap.
 
The room needs not to know, if someone from it wants to alert a mod, they are free to. But not involve the room.
 
@Tunaki if you want to implement that rule, I'd rather not have people reporting every individual spam post - just come over to CHQ to use the allspam command,.
 
Or that.
 
@rene Let me ask this: Have there been any real instances of targeting where real harm happened?
And how frequent/severe were they?
 
10:31 PM
@rene I came over a [here's my web-site] sample recently. Does that qualify as spam?
 
It's not like allspam is a binding thing, we can just remove users from the blacklist and decline the metasmoke reports
 
@πάνταῥεῖ if it's not disclosed attribution, or it's totally irrelevant, then yes.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ technically, yes, but moderators have tools to verify it better. I like custom flags on those.
 
If it's relevant and disclosed, then no.
 
@Undo The issues is a clear line, I have seen many times users linking to profiles for different reasons and the clear line have been nice....
 
10:32 PM
@Undo There could be. And I wouldn't want to have an exception to allow !!/allspam or such that are very rarely done.
 
@Quill allspam doesn't actually report the posts to MS
 
Note, we only have 3 minutes left for this topic. Please make any final arguments. We need to get some resolution soon to keep on track.
 
@Undo I have had a few cases where I brought up stuff that in the end weren't so bad
 
@Undo The Q was about some CSS used there, but I qualified sd k anyways.
 
!!/allspam was invoked 40 times in SOCVR all time.
 
10:33 PM
@Tunaki Hold on, "could be" isn't a reason to disallow something.
 
@ArtOfCode it blacklists them, right? which means their future posts are reported
 
Anyway, I know this is slightly off-topic, but I'd suggest that you not hold the profile-linking thing as a hard line.
 
My climbing harness could break; the tower could fall on my head. Should I not go climbing because of those risks? Or should I mitigate them the best I can, and react retrospectively to any issues that do come up?
 
Seems like it causes unnecessary inconvenience for questionable, theoretical gain.
 
@gunr2171 This sounds like we have a Fox News Election Debate :P
 
10:34 PM
should we move on to suggested edits?
 
I actually think it simplifies things. No-one needs to check whether that particular exception to a link to a user is ok. And then debate "ok".
 
And as a moderator, it's nice to have a room I can trust to drop links to stuff I need help cleaning up. Don't do that very often, but when I do there'll be a profile link involved.
But anyway, I vote that you just let people use allspam as they see fit. Should probably have that report to metasmoke or alert CHQ; that's a Charcoal problem and we can look at it.
 
I agree with Tuna... simple rule., no need to link to user, members can check that by themself.
 
I'm not sure how "linking to the user" = "moderating the user"
 
@Undo Those cases are fine. I would rather not leave go make sure the user is good to regular user.
 
10:36 PM
@NathanOliver Which is valid, but I question whether the rule is needed. Anyway, that's a topic for another meeting.
 
I think the core reason for avoiding user links in the transcript is when people start to get angry at the room. If we close a single post we can defend that easily. If we post a user and say "go through that person" then it's a pattern that someone can argue on meta. Yeah, we might win that argument, but it doesn't look good after enough meta posts.
 
I vote we move on and look at the no-targeting thing later.
 
so, basically, even justified actions are arguable...
 
exactly
move on? this one will need some more discussion later
 
Aye
 
10:39 PM
Aye
 
This room was placed in timeout for 2 minutes; forth topic
Next topic is:
There's a fine line between talking about / trying to promote the room and... well, spamming and pissing people off. How do we / should we advertise the room? Does it make a difference if it's main or Meta? Should we have any guidelines on the matter? source
 
Is there really a reason to post "advertisements" on main
 
Guideline: If it is relevant to the conversation at hand, fine. If it is out of the blue then just don't do it.
 
^ that
 
I would just make it simple and say: We don't promote it. But we also don't hide. If someone asks who we are or if there is a chat room for moderation we can link to our room. But we don't need to run around and promote our room. This would also make sure we don't have 200 people in the room posting stuff.
 
10:42 PM
@Quill on main, no. on meta, yes with good reason
 
All you really need here is the common sense rule.
 
@NathanOliver this is what I was going to say in a lot fewer words.
 
If I look at it and raise one eyebrow, it's spam and I'll tell you. I haven't seen that yet.
 
Good questions, I've been promoting the SOCVR room at MSO, even before I've been actively participating.
 
10:42 PM
let your actions be the advertisements
 
"Does it make sense to explain SOCVR here?" If the answer's no, don't do it.
 
the word of mouth is powerful indeed
 
ok, so the conclusion here is "use your common sense, don't be a spammer"
 
aye
 
Sounds reasonable
 
10:43 PM
on Meta though, if the room could help in performing a moderation task, a link to the room with the FAQ (socvr.org) is welcome.
 
oh, and one last thing, is there a big difference between main and meta
 
I'm going to post an ad looking for friends on meta....
to help me with the debian related tags :D
 
@Tunaki But to be clear, don't open meta every day with your goal being "I want to link to SOCVR nine times today."
 
@gunr2171 yes. On main, you don't say anything unless someone directly asks. On meta, you can give some details if SOCVR could be relevant/useful in a discussion
 
@Tunaki I agree
 
10:44 PM
@Undo Clearly
 
@gunr2171 not really. Just that meta people are much more likely to be discussing things that are relevant to SOCVR. Moderation (and other meta stuff) should really stay out of main.
 
@Undo Certainly not, but there are valid cases IMO
 
Of course.
 
ok, well I think this one was easy. Move on?
 
Yep
 
10:45 PM
@ArtOfCode What about "let's continue this discussion in chat" like links?
 
boo! Undo didn't used the British way
 
This room was placed in timeout for 2 minutes; fifth topic
alright, last topic!
Should SOCVR be involved in moderating the new Documentation portion of Stack Overflow? source
 
please yes
 
NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO.
I feel like there is just too much stuff unknown how to moderate it so that you really could moderate it correctly.
 
One word: plagiarism.
 
10:48 PM
There are so many growing pains with the site. We should not moderate Docs at all (at least not officially) until it's more mature at the minimum.
 
There is already a separate room for Docs moderation right?
 
@Braiam more Scottish or Welsh than fully British :P
 
@ryanyuyu yes
 
I would be really careful with diving into this. Documentation is still in its early stages, with lots of feature-requests, lots of complains, even temporary bans and practically no real or official guidelines on what it is to moderate Docs. The only thing clear-cut would be plagiarism.
 
SOCVR has a bunch of smart, sane people. Documentation is brand new and no one knows what they're doing.
 
10:48 PM
Growing pains aside, there's still going to be spam and abusive stuff, and bad edits
 
It'd be really nice if the smart, sane people would help us figure out what we're doing
 
Right now, no. Documentation is very domain specific. It requires knowledge of the topic
 
Heck, moderators don't even have tools yet. We need help figuring out what tools we need
 
If the volume of docs related stuff starts getting massive, then it can be moved to SODR
 
@Undo But that would be a real pain, wouldn't it?
 
10:49 PM
@Andy Plagiarism doesn't, though
 
@Undo reviewing is a pain though ...
 
1st counter question that comes to my mnd: Can examples be used to close questions as duplicates?
 
You've got to be skilled in a subject in order to tell what is quality and what isn't. None of us are well versed in Docs, so how can we pass judgement?
 
@rene That'll be fixed in some future release.
 
I have no problem with working to root out plagiarism. That needs to be stopped.
 
10:49 PM
plagiarism seems like clear-cut enough for reject-pls in SOCVR
 
@gunr2171 Even if you just skim through looking for plagiarism, I'd be ecstatic.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Not yet. Is kinda status-defered
 
I can totally understand that people don't want to moderate things they don't understand. But plagiarism, spam, etc don't require much understanding to ping a mod about. If the people who are willing to help moderate Docs would do a little bit, I imagine that would help the mods out significantly.
 
@Undo True, but socvr is not a plagiarism detection service.
 
@NathanOliver That's a big deficiency :(
 
10:50 PM
I've been thinking asking you guys to help me go through the on docs, because I've found several instances of the git-scm copied verbatim....
 
@Andy No, but the people in here are statistically more likely to run across it (and detect it) than most.
 
Quality should probably not be moderated by the room; quality has a messy definition. But clear-cut things like spam and plagiarism can be dealt with effectively by a few members of the room looking for them occasionally.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ all the cross pollination has still to be figured out ...
 
I don't see a reason to hamper them from throwing it in the room they're already in.
 
So basically, only focus on spam / plagiarism for now.
 
10:51 PM
@ArtOfCode This. Quality will be figured out eventually, but even then it's not critical like plagiarism & spam is.
 
@Andy Always remember it is a request. Do not feel like you would have to do something.
 
@rene But rep is given away like candy meanwhile, that smells all fishy (hey gals!!)
 
@Tunaki And any other nastiness/abuse you see that we haven't thought about yet.
We need to know how it breaks before we can build tools to fix it.
Or at least patch it.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ A retool is coming. meta.stackoverflow.com/a/330343/4342498
 
Right. But not "should we split this example", "move it somewhere" etc.
 
10:52 PM
I've yet to run into an offensive flag in Docs, but I guess that would also be ok to bring up here.
 
@Tunaki That's squishy enough that it wouldn't be a good fit.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Yeah, the rep is my main concern as this room has a rep limit of 1000 but that should come from Q/A
 
@Undo Agree.
 
@ryanyuyu Especially because there's no way to offensive-flag something in Docs in a way that's meaningful.
 
So nuke flags only(plagiarism included) in docs?
 
10:53 PM
You pretty much have to flag something in QA if you want moderators to see it.
 
To be clear then, that means low quality, off topic requests, and incorrect examples are not the goal here, right? Only the plagiarism and spam.
 
Yes.
 
@NathanOliver yes. Nuke only is a good description.
 
@Andy I see it just like QA. We're moderating meta-content, not content.
 
@rene Same for me, that's my major concern. But that's pobably not related if we should moderate at SOCVR.
 
10:54 PM
true
 
Meaning "is this spam", not "is FooBar actually about fooing bars"
 
@Tunaki ok. I can get behind that.
 
Let meta figure out what it wants to do from a quality / technical standpoint.
 
@Undo but... it is
 
Ok
 
10:55 PM
ok, so the conclusion here is this?
1 min ago, by Andy
To be clear then, that means low quality, off topic requests, and incorrect examples are not the goal here, right? Only the plagiarism and spam.
 
Yes.
 
Yep
 
And offensive stuff
 
@gunr2171 I'd add "and unforeseen abuse" to the end of that, but yes.
 
but yeah
 
10:55 PM
yep, anything that needs to be nuked
 
yes
 
@gunr2171 that includes topics?
 
Sam
Yup
 
@gunr2171 All of it, based on meta
 
like the java-8, python-2.x thingy
 
10:56 PM
ok, well I think that covers it
This concludes this room meeting. Conclusions are being written now and will appear here momentarily.
 
@Braiam If there's a topic created for love-fixing spell-casters, it should probably be nuked.
 
We'll keep this room open for another 30 minutes, then lock it until the next meeting. Thanks all for participating!
 
No. That should be meta and the new synonyms the CM can create @Braiam
 
one-box ....
 
10:57 PM
You had to do it didn't you.
 
you're happy I don't have my shoes on :)
 
I couldn't resist :P
 
Question: what's wrong with oneboxes?
 
imgur.com/a/wi1Ek Now we all can post cat images
 
That would be the topic for a new meeting :)
 
10:58 PM
@ArtOfCode some users are on mobile
 
@ArtOfCode If all do it it clutters the transcript.
 
or so I think...
 
@Braiam and?
@Rizier123 that's what scrolling was invented for
 
but editing after it was posted doesn't cancels the loading
 
@Undo MSO is quite swamped now with stuff. I already stated once, that seems to be an indicator that there are things going seriously wrong, and it's essentially a banana rollout strategy (ripes when arrives customer).
 
10:59 PM
small beta to the entirety of SO
what could go wrong
 
@πάνταῥεῖ It's a whole new field on SO. SO is big, meta is vocal. Remember, there were people foretelling the end of the world when the black top bar thing happened.
 
@Quill Infringing the gamification guts!
 
It'll even out, adjustments will be made, a few people will ragequit, and we'll move on with our lives. Two years from now we'll look back and go "well that drama was stupid"
 
@Undo the world actually ended, just that none of us were important enough to be informed :(
 
@Undo No, sorry! I'm not that kinda kidding. There's serious impact, compared to your sample.
 
11:02 PM
Maybe. We'll see.
I do think that "shut it down" and "just remove reputation" are... the opposite of helpful.
 
@Undo Well, "Time flies like a banana." (G. Marx)
 
... not very well and kinda curvy? :P
 
@πάνταῥεῖ You mean that users can be an "established user" in just 5 days?
 
@Rizier123 Weird stuff like that, yes.
 
@Rizier123 Well, apparently that is going to change.
 
11:06 PM
There were silly requests to distinguish regular from doc rep in kind of an imaginary number system? Jesus :P ...
@Tunaki You're at good faith, until world actually ends.
 
Ha but the world already ended! :)
 
@Tunaki Several times I know (seen my nick?)
 
alright, time to close up shop. Until the next meeting!
room mode changed to Gallery: anyone may enter, but only approved users can talk
 

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