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11:00 PM
they're good, worth a watch
 
eh
 
especially because you'll probably understand way more then I do
 
why would I want to watch a guy I don't respect talk about a language feature I don't intend to ever use?
 
oh
what's your gripe with Andrei?
 
he's arrogant
 
11:01 PM
lol
I think he's funny
 
@TonyTheLion He is designing his own language <grin/>
 
and you're not arrogant?
lol
 
@TonyTheLion He doesn't tolerate competition
 
seems so
 
nah
he acted like he knew the solution to the problem I had when he didn't even know what it was
 
11:02 PM
it's always those things you do or are guilty of yourself that you seem to not be able to take when others do it
 
Xeo
@RMartinho, the answer should now be all patched up
 
+1 now.
@DeadMG Oh, he answered a question of yours?
 
remember, there was that "Opinions on D" Programmers question
 
Oh, I don't frequent PSE much.
 
well, his general response to me was that he was right and I was wrong because he's Andrei
 
11:07 PM
I didn't even know he was on SO/SE.
 
nor did I
he had some rather low rep, I think he might have come on just because I dissed D :P
 
Xeo
@DeadMG Linky?
 
@DeadMG link or it didn't happen
 
1
A: What does C++ do better than D?

DeadMGI don't know much about D, but many, many C++ programmers I know greatly dislike it, and I personally have to agree- I don't like the look of D and will not be taking a closer one. In order to understand why D isn't gaining more traction, you need to start by understanding what attracts people t...

 
Xeo
Ohhh, the comment nuke one.
Too bad I didn't get to read the comments before they were nuked.
 
yes
I think that many people there had some rather unsavoury things to say about me
but I'm not bothered
 
@RMartinhoFernandes a whole second? You need lockfree search workers
not bitter, either
you just 'don't respect the guy' :)
 
lol
 
@sehe I can't beat physics. My network connection is slow.
 
well, as far as I could tell, his entire approach to the language was to take control away from the programmer
that's not a respectable approach
 
11:11 PM
@DeadMG That is a fact.
?
 
well, yes.
languages are paintbrushes- they should have nothing to say about what's expressed with them
 
That's paintbrushism.
 
they should merely facilitate the transfer of ideas from a human into another medium
 
Or something.
 
@DeadMG that's a lot of norms and non sequitur
 
11:13 PM
anything else is way outside their mandate
 
But I won't get into a mess over that. I respect you even though you are arrogant.
You know why?
 
no
 
Because you're here to help, you're adding value, and your help is of high quality. Makes it worth it.
(The same goes for Andrei, to an extent, but I don't know him or D)
 
no no
 
ROFL
 
11:16 PM
the equivalent of (how I see) his behaviour isn't just saying that he's wrong
 
@DeadMG I lost context there. What are you saying?
 
but also that he's trying to dominate
like, Andrei thinks that Andrei's way to program is the only way to program
and if you have a design or idea which doesn't fit into Andrei's idea of what programming should be, then it's Bad™ by default
 
@DeadMG Clearly he isn't. Or his contributions on GN2012 would have been about Andrei, not funtastic dotdotdots. Why would he bother with 'old fashioned C++', if it isn't what he thinks is best?
 
and because Andrei himself wouldn't use such a design, therefore it should be Banhammered
 
@sehe "dadadas" is the correct term.
 
11:18 PM
@sehe Probably because D as a language has failed to gain significant traction, as far as I'm aware
 
@DeadMG I'm sure you have a concrete case of the grudge there, but I'm leaving history alone, since we can talk without invoking external deities from the orbs.
We are plenty arrogant and we don't need the help, thank you very much!
 
lol
 
@DeadMG You know, that's exactly how your complaints against, for example, pattern matching sound.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes There's a difference.
 
Xeo
There always is.
 
11:21 PM
Andrei designed his language to Banhammer things from his whole language, and by extension, every program ever written in it.
I explicitly designed Wide to be the opposite of that.
if you wanted to introduce pattern matching to Wide, you could. It's not Banhammered at all.
 
@Xeo +1
 
I mean, sure, I personally Banhammer it from my personal programs.
but there's a big difference between a personal Banhammer and a language Banhammer.
 
@DeadMG So... you banhammered banhammering from your language. Meh
 
lol
 
Who's interested in ANOTHER placement new conspiracy?
 
11:24 PM
You're inheriting resultant constraints into your language. I could sit here and list a slew of bad things (TM) with that.
But I won't because I can Program however Small, and Talk however Wide I want
 
By the way; who here uses COM?
 
@sehe What resultant constraints?
@IDWMaster I've used it a little.
 
@IDWMaster I did some stuff with it in the past, painful
 
I used COM from .NET.
 
:2573561 Yeah
Basic hello world example (in a debugger you can see this works)
#import "ComCallable.tlb" raw_interfaces_only
using namespace COMCallable;
int _tmain(int argc, _TCHAR* argv[])
{
	CoInitialize(NULL);

	ISamplePtr ptr = ISamplePtr(__uuidof(Sample));
	BSTR* retval = new BSTR();
	ptr->GetString(retval);
	CoUninitialize();
	return 0;
}
And fixed font doesn't work as usual
 
11:29 PM
those BSTR things are annoying
 
that's not at all correct
 
Hmm, you need to new up BSTRs? Wow.
 
you need BSTR retval; ptr->GetString(&retval);
@RMartinhoFernandes No.
 
@DeadMG Ah that looks saner.
Wait, is that thing named retval because it's an out parameter?
 
yes
all COM functions use HRESULT error codes, essentially
 
11:30 PM
@DeadMG I can't tell you for language X. But any design choice (such as - I don't want to banhammer impure functions, or I don't want to banhammer explicit memory management) has impact on the rest of the lot.
 
@sehe Not in Wide :)
 
I'm glad I used it from .NET.
 
In fact, watching quite a fair number of presentations on the D language, tells you exactly that Andrei and his team are forever balancing these.
 
CoInitialize(NULL);

	ISamplePtr ptr = ISamplePtr(__uuidof(Sample));
	BSTR retval;
	ptr->GetString(&retval);
	CoUninitialize();
That's better...
Still; what's the deal with BSTR?
 
11:31 PM
@DeadMG Unless you beat Godel or rehabilitate Hilbert, also in Wide. You can't beat physics, not even the robot can
 
@IDWMaster BSTR is a mix between wide character zeroterminated strings and pascal strings.
 
I will beat physicists instead.
 
Pascal strings start with a length field, which in BSTR is located before the character pointed to by the BSTR value
 
11:32 PM
@sehe Incompleteness and such has nothing to do with encapsulating design.
 
Hmmm. Which is worse? Microsoft's BSTR abomination or switching everything to managed C++ in WinRT
 
@DeadMG Well. I'll see your language. Lisp is still taking over the world since 1970. It's particular flavour of superiority apparently had drawbacks.
 
I'm fairly confident that, whilst I may have potentially many, potentially fatal, flaws, the problems of LISP are not amongst them
 
Remember, it is only my conviction that even your refusal to accept 'limiting design choices' is a 'limiting design choice'.
My conviction won't harm you. Especially not since I'm not making something, and you are.
 
Argh, I can't get decent exception safety on my optional move ctor.
    optional(optional&& that) noexcept
    : present(that.present) {
        if(that.present) {
            construct(move(that.item())); // TODO: exception safety!
            that.destroy();
        }
        that.present = false;
    }
Need help.
 
11:35 PM
move constructors can't throw for any reasonable exception safety
 
@IDWMaster BSTR is worse. Case closed
 
as far as I remember, anyway
 
Also, I just noticed that noexcept in there is a damn lie.
 
is it by default noexcept(true)
 
@sehe I have a trick up my sleeve.
 
11:38 PM
@DeadMG So it's hopeless?
 
@DeadMG quantum computing. real Heisenbugs? No, I know! Inline assembly :)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I believe that Standard containers assume that move constructors for their contained types do not throw. I further believe this decision was made because they found no way to be exception-safe otherwise.
@sehe Nope.
 
@sehe C++ has that. Doesn't help.
Also, I just noticed that boo finally has mutable syntax. I shall toy with it again sometime.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Which part? Quantum computing? std::vector<qubit> specialization?
 
@sehe Inline assembly.
 
11:42 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes C++ hasn't it? Where is it in the specs? Or is GNU once again the defacto standard (in that clang is trying to be compatible?)
 
Xeo
I'm off, g'night.
 
C++ has the asm keyword. But it's a bring your own assembly party.
 
ah. Now i see 7.4 :) I searched for assembly, which was a dumb choice of search keyword
 
GNU's inline assembly syntax is pretty much defacto standard - except for MSVC which has their own - which is garbage though...
 
@Xeo and we should believe that?
 
11:43 PM
@Mysticial Erm, AT&T syntax sucks too.
 
@Mysticial MS has their own for a lot of things. :P
 
There's also the fact that Intel uses Intel syntax in their documents (OMG, why would they do that?)
 
@Mysticial Was just trying to figure out what intel c++ is compatible with? I'm getting the impression it might be compatible only with GCC in a 'intel' mode?
 
Doesn't help at all when GCC uses AT&T.
 
Xeo
@TonyTheLion Yes. I'm awake for well over 36hours alread.
 
11:44 PM
For some reason, I'm not getting the pings... I don't hear a sound...
 
oh than you should defo get some sleep :)
 
Xeo
Must be the first time in weeks that I go to bed before 1am
 
@Mysticial sound turned off?
 
@Xeo I shall go soon as well. I promised myself I'd get back to "normal" phase tomorrow.
 
@TonyTheLion It's definitely on, I have music on and Firefox is definitely not muted.
 
11:45 PM
maybe the sound is muted at the top right corner of this chat window?
 
Xeo
The problem is, I don't really want to go to sleep. I have so much stuff in mind that I want to do, it's not even funny anymore.
 
@Mysticial Click the speaker icon?
 
Flash crashed.
 
there's a volume adjuster there
oh flash...
 
@TonyTheLion I don't think I've ever touched it. But someone try pinging me.
 
11:46 PM
@Xeo Yep, that's what usually leads to involuntary phase shifts.
 
@Mysticial
 
nope, it didn't work...
 
@Mysticial I can't pin you over the Internet.
 
@Mysticial plink
 
wtf...
 
Xeo
11:46 PM
Oh well, going to sleep earlier -> waking up earlier. (as if, after 36h of staying awake)
G'night
 
gonna try reloading
 
@Mysticial Check if Flash is running.
 
now it worked!
 
I can hardly stay awake for 24hrs straight, how does one even do 36hrs without going nuts???
 
@Mysticial Shame 'bout the edit. I was looking forward to 'pining' you to death
 
11:47 PM
-3
A: Private inheritance vs containment

Captain GiraffeIf this pertains to c++ please use c++ terminology. Containment is a sci-fi term. -"We need to construct the used object before, or destroy it after, another base subobject. If the slightly longer object lifetime matters, there's no way to get it other than using inheritance" The author of tha...

 
something got borked - since I haven't closed/refreshed the window since December
 
Quick! Look before it's deleted.
 
explains a lot
 
That answer is hilarious.
@Mysticial Flash.
 
oh great... half the comments are pings to me...
 
11:48 PM
@TonyTheLion they don't
 
@RMartinhoFernandes is that a quote from Herb?
@MooingDuck ah, ok
 
um...
 
question remains if the guy writing the answer is a moron?
 
@TonyTheLion I ran 50 somethings once. Am I nuts?
 
@Mysticial I removed my answer from your muldiv question because it was unfix-ably wrong. :(
 
11:49 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes did you feel you went crazy?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes By long deleted
 
@CaptainGiraffe What was that thing about sci-fi?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes you're definitely not nuts, you're a very smart guy, I would say
 
@sehe damn... too many pings I didn't see that. would've edited it back.
 
@TonyTheLion Not mutually exclusive. And thanks.
 
11:50 PM
@MooingDuck meh... I didn't notice I only answered it. It wasn't my question.
 
Containment? I've never seen it in the litterature.
 
@CaptainGiraffe what were you trying to say, is my question
 
@Mysticial oh, for some reason I thought it was. Oops
 
@CaptainGiraffe it's not normally called "containment"... I can't remember the right word right now
@RMartinhoFernandes :)
 
@TonyTheLion encapsulation?
 
11:51 PM
@CaptainGiraffe Well, for what is worth:
In OOP supported languages, containership means an object is created within another object. For Example in C++: class A { int a; }x; class B { A y; // All the data members and member functions of class A can be accessed through the object 'y' }z; See also * Object composition difference between Container ship and Inheritance? http://forums.devx.com/archive/index.php/t-86776.html
 
@MooingDuck probably cause he accepted my answer, so it got pinned to the top.
 
ah aggregation? composition?
 
this time pinned for realz, lol
 
@TonyTheLion Well, let's just say anything I said stopped making sense somewhere around the fortieth hour.
 
composition, that's the word I was thinking of
 
11:52 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes containership?
 
@TonyTheLion I was searching the interwebs but couldn't remember either :(
 
are you frigging kidding?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I can imagine, I stop making sense way before that already
@CaptainGiraffe Wikipidia is not a joke :P
 
@TonyTheLion just ask it in the java room. UML has at least two dozen different types of aggregation relations, besides as many types of composition relations
 
@TonyTheLion That entire article fits in the onebox.
 
11:53 PM
@sehe yea I know, I used to believe in that stuff, before I came to my sanity, and got out of OO wanking
 
@TonyTheLion and I'm not even mentioning the things like derives-from, used-by, implements, model-of
 
@RMartinhoFernandes lol
 
@CaptainGiraffe Well, I did hear it before in a programming context. But yeah, it's not that common.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes wow, so it does
 
@sehe oh fuck, it's just too much
 
11:54 PM
We were talking about inline assembly, before I derailed everything with my pinning problems?
 
Well I'll try to keep my vocabulary as boring as I can, You'll get to talk about spaceships.
 
@Mysticial oh that....
 
@TonyTheLion I never 'believed' in the UML religion. I did do my 16 months of Java wankery though. I learned a lot. I was the worst type of Java 'engineer'.
 
lol, I had the same but in .NET
 
Hey spaceships are way above the cloud.
 
11:55 PM
I used to be a pattern obsessed noob
 
@CaptainGiraffe one of my roomies got an admin account to some automobile forum. He posted the first 42 pages of "War and Peace" before they banned that account.
 
I'm not sure what I learned from Java, other then "Java sucks".
 
I forgot which is AT&T and which is Intel. The destination first is Intel syntax?
or did I get it mixed...
 
@TonyTheLion I only know this because of unfortunate events that lead me to generating UML models for our C# codebases using IBM Rational Modeler.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I just hate java coders, does that count?
 
11:56 PM
@MooingDuck It was either that or the admin pass =)
 
@Mysticial Yes.
 
Either way, I have trouble reading the one needed in inline assembly where the destination register is last.
 
The RSM object model is awe-inspiring, without a doubt. It is a thing of beauty, but is bureacratic to the bone
 
@Mysticial yea I think destination first is Intel
 
@Mysticial That's AT&T! That's what GCC uses.
 
11:56 PM
The intel compiler picked up the GCC inline assembly format.
 
When I debugged in asm the first time on a Linux machine with GDB and AT&T syntax, I got really damn confused
 
@Mysticial Thanks for a late answer :)
 
MS completely dropped inline assembly in x64 - not that it mattered though since it was shit to begin with.
 
@Mysticial mostly by accident
 
13 mins ago, by sehe
@Mysticial Was just trying to figure out what intel c++ is compatible with? I'm getting the impression it might be compatible only with GCC in a 'intel' mode?
 
11:57 PM
So the same inline assembly I write works both in Linux and Windows with ICC.
 
However, addressing with Intel's syntax is a bit painful.
 
I have a book about software architecture that's nothing but patterns... some of them are useful, I admit, but not everything fits in a pattern
 
@TonyTheLion You just haven't found the right pattern
 
@RMartinhoFernandes why so?
 
Singleton.
 
11:58 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes fits a pattern
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Oh your so in the 70's =)
 
ugh, I once did a singleton, which turned something else into a singleton, and I ended up with almost all my classes going to be singletons...
 
@MooingDuck Fits only a pattern (FTFY)
 
sbi
@FredOverflow You know, I, too, love to do both, programming myself and teaching others to do that. Just hacking away at my own code isn't as satisfying as teaching can be, and only teaching would make me go nuts. But it's not just university where you can teach. I have taught apprentices (Fachinformatiker Anwendungsentwicklung), given seminars in the industry, and taught at two different FHs in Berlin — while having a 30hr/week contract writing interesting programs.
 
@Mysticial dword [ eax + ecx * 8 + ebx ]?
 
sbi
11:59 PM
There's no need to remain in the ivory tower because you love teaching.
 
damn, I hate singletons with a passion
 
@RMartinhoFernandes That's pretty clear to me. Maybe I've just been reading waaaaay too much assembly...
 

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