« first day (1724 days earlier)      last day (2056 days later) » 

5:00 PM
I assumed it was probably there for a reason, and I guess this is the reason.
We can put it under an #ifdef TO_OSX I guess, but the weird thing is... if it's finding it, why isn't it in the stdlib.h file?
 
So put it back with a comment?
 
@Maarten I guess so. Put github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/commit/… back, as:
// !!! environ is supposed to be found in <stdlib.h> but appears not to be
// in the header on OS/X (other platforms?)  Yet if we declare it extern it
// is found, which is odd.
#ifdef TO_OSX
    extern char **environ;
#endif
 
@moliad Does it work if you use it from the system path?'
 
@Maarten and submit as a PR so we can continue to work on our process. :-)
 
have not tried it yet, I still have to figure out how to pull that commit and merge it in my local distro ;-)
 
5:03 PM
In this case, you shiuld just revert that commit, I think
@HostileFork I'll push a branch
 
@Maarten I wouldn't have taken it out if I didn't want to do something about the duplicate definition warning.
We'd like to go to -Werror where all warnings are treated as errors, and if there's just one weird duplicate definition it's not a good enough reason to not figure out why it's there.
 
I can't push, how do I get access?
 
@moliad it doesn't matter where you put your cmake.exe
 
@HostileFork have to go now. I'll open an issue in stead as I can't push
 
@Maarten This is why I say we need to get into the process. :-) On GitHub you do a FORK of the repository, and then you will have a GitHub hosted repo. Then you clone from that and push to that where you have permissions. A pull request is a way of raising others attention to a branch in your repository that you want them to pull into theirs where they have write access.
But you don't write to theirs directly, and they don't write to yours directly (usually)
Simply put, I don't scale. So if I have to do every edit myself it's not a sustainable way to move forward.
I'd like everyone to be set up to do a PR, and it's not that hard.
 
5:16 PM
posted on July 21, 2015 by mbk

I.e. this commit needs a revert as temp workaround to get things compiling on OSX: 465a180

 
need a bit of github help here... is there a way, from within the web interface to pull in someone else's branch of a repo you have already forked?
 
@moliad The web interface has very limited functionality in terms of what it will do to your hosted repository. It will merge a pull request when it can be done automatically, and that's about it.
@moliad You should add a remote, fetch its branches, and pull from that. If you aren't using something like it already, you might like SourceTree
 
I use gitExt but source tree looks like it may be ok too.. they look very similar.
 
GitHub once had a button called "fast-forward" which let you move your hosted repository up to sync with the one you'd forked it from for a branch
They got rid of it, and I think generally they don't want to be implementing a general Git interface, because once you add one thing people are going to ask for another...
 
yeah... its a clean "separation of concern" ;-)
 
5:22 PM
"If you give a mouse some cheese, he'll come back for crackers and wine."
 
"...and then truffles" ;-)
 
@moliad If you add Shixins repo as a remote, you can fetch and checkout the make-cmake branch and push it as a new branch to your fork.
That's how Im doing it. I have my fork (based on mainline ren-c), metaeducation, and zsx as remotes on my local. As a result I can work on any branch I want.
 
@iceflow19 yep, that's how I was going to set it up.
I'll try source tree... I like it seems to have GitFlow integrated in the gui.
I need to force people in the office to stop using SVN and adopt GitFlow... sourceTree might just be the tool to do it... it "looks" sexy so less technical people might resist less.
and I've discovered how cleanly msvc have integrated git in the file/component browser... there is no real reason to resit anymore. :-)
 
@moliad It's reasonably good. It's "Trackware"...has an annoying register-by-email-to-set-up-your-license file.
Other than that, it's useful.
 
Anyways I have to get back to work, before my manager busts a blood vessel.
 
5:30 PM
@HostileFork argh. hate that for this kind of generic software.
 
@iceflow19 yup, well perhaps you can solve some work problem with a few lines of Rebol and he'll not consider it wasting time :-)
 
There's a bit of animosity to learning new languages here, and they think PHP is the best thing since sliced bread... This is what happens when you let the script kiddies dictate the direction of development.
 
I guess there are many bad parallels we can do between php and sliced bread ;-)
 
@HostileFork I thought about your idea about lit-bit on everything, and I just had the idea for the usage of lit-url. This would be an url without automatic url-encoding. I have a use case where I need this, because Rebols automatic url-encoding breaks access to the api.
 
@ingo Hm. That's interesting.
But it seems that to get that to work, it would mean that:
url: 'http://some-literal-url
 
5:39 PM
automatic url-encoding sucks.. I'd completely remove it. it always gets in the way and it almost never helps. same for filename encoding. whenever you have wierd filenames the filename encoding always makes it even worse.
 
That url has lost the lit bit.
It lost it when it was assigned in the evaluator.
What you're proposing would thus require evaluator behavior for a URL which encoded it upon seeing it.
Perhaps as @moliad says, getting rid of it is the better idea.
But if lit-bit existed in a dialect other than DO, then it could be used for such a purpose.
So it still could be an interesting choice.
 
i'd rather have a encode-url function I use manually, in the rare cases I really have an issue with some remote service. at least I can cherry pick what gets encoded and what doesn't
 
Yes, you are right about losing the lit-bit.
Getting rid of it may be better.
 
the lit bit is mainly for adding expressiveness in data.
%" . " is a better syntax than %%20.%20
 
We also need %{ . } which does not work today.
@MarkI --^
 
5:43 PM
and that is what should be formed when it detects an odd path.
currently, I have to store my paths in rebol form, but within strings and do a to-path on the string. then any screwy path chars stay as-is and it works... its really tedious.
 
NewPath has NewAnswers for paths. :-)
>> reduce [/usr/local/["bin" 3 + 4]/(x: "olleh" reverse x)]
== %/usr/local/bin7/hello
 
@moliad Do you have an idea on how to do the same for urls? In my tests even "patching" the url url-encodes the new characters.
 
[] => combine (fixed version of rejoin), () => DO
 
@ingo I think the above trick also works for urls. the thing is you cannot store them, cause they get mangled in the LOAD process.
you need to store them in string format "http://domain.com/has a space/file%" and whenever you want to use the url version, you to url! them on the fly.
I had the problem a long time ago and I think that is how I got it to work.
 
@moliad This I never tried, but will do it soonish.
 
5:51 PM
ex:
`read to url! "http://domain.com/has a space/file%"`

it seems to work in R2 since the error messages gives me the un-mangled version of the URL :-)
 
People should be more excited about NewPath, IMO. And I think that @http://foo/bar is probably the only choice for actual ANY-STRING! style URL! literals, which will be the evaluative result of paths starting with set-word! (vs. FILE! if it starts with NONE!)
 
@HostileFork I would rather we not do this. %"" strings are percent-decoded, unlike real strings.
So I would resist anything that leads users to think they are the same.
 
@MarkI Er, how does %"..." not suggest string, what with the "..."? I'd resist anything that doesn't allow you to use asymmetric string delimiters there.
The percent decoding issue, hm, don't know about it. Can you put percents in ordinary FILE! %blahblah.%.txt
Should you be able to, or use construction syntax only?
 
It is not a string. It is a percent-encoded string. All the quotes do is allow you to put spaces in it. You can't even put percents in it ...
@HostileFork Yes you can, if you want them to be interpreted as beginning a percent-encoding sequence.
 
I'd be willing to make file literals go to some kind of common denominator and say you use construction syntax if you have a weird name; a little prescriptiveness would not hurt.
I'm not opposed to Rebol having some level of prescriptiveness in terms of "naturals". I just don't want it to be impossible to make the unnaturals.
And if construction syntax gets to the point where you can say e.g. file!:{my lousy % ^(CCEE) filename} that's okay by me.
 
5:58 PM
The problem is not the percents per se. <grin>. The problem is the spaces, nobody likes %I%20am%20a%20file.
 
The god of percent signs thinks that's lovely.
Not as lovely as encoding it in unary where the symbol used is %
But still pretty good.
I don't know about this percent encoding in naturals.
 
Now that I think about it a bit, I don't think there's any reason to interpret percents in %"" file-strings, as it seems to handle ^-escaping which does the same thing.
That would be a big change though.
 
If URL! follows the philosophy I'm suggesting, as necessary for NewPath, then @{...} is a good catch to get URLs with spaces and parens and oddities taken care of
@http:// if you want the ANY-STRING! form and you can get by with naturals
http:// if you want NewPath calculational compositional magics
 
I am happy with (http: //example.com) in paths. Shorter and sweeter.
 
Nooo
 
6:03 PM
@HostileFork You knew I was going to say that.
 
Yeah goodluckwiththat. And another reason not to use \ for that kind of thing.
Expression barrier is perfect as the sole use of backslash in Rebol (not inside a string)
 
or tag
 
Always with a \ space on the left and a space \ on the right
an ANY-STRING!
 
or url
or file
 
But not a natural.
Well, only if you do %"..." or @"..."
 
6:06 PM
Re-thinking ...
 
emails need to be rethought in light of the driving need for a URL literal, and we also wanted handles, @MarkI... so the drawing board needs to be... drawn some more
I like the idea of pushing weird URLs into @{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_(programming_language)}
And I of course like the NewPath notion of undecorated pathy-things having evaluator power.
So https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_(programming_language) would be an error in Plan -4.
But https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_ (programming_language) would be legal.
PATH! followed by PAREN! (cough group!)
 
@HostileFork BTW HF, what's your plan for how to say that we want to output a map literal as opposed to a map construct?
SAVE will output an unloadable, but readable (for some) map "representation".
SAVE/ALL will output a loadable map constructor.
 
And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_/(programming_language)would be legal and if programming_language was "0304" it would be evaluated as @https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_/0304
 
How to get the "literal"?
 
@MarkI On that one I don't have a plan, because @earl is the map literals advocate, and map advocate in general.
So I assume he has it figured out. :-)
 
6:17 PM
you do know that making paths all powerful in Rebol leads directly to java ish code. everyone will start using paths for everything and it gets ugly very fast... even in rebol.
I am stuck with this problem in my current implementation of liquid and its not fun to use rebol in this style.
 
@moliad I agree. I also think that putting spaces in paths ruins them. They are an extension of word!, not block!.
 
anyhow... I have no time for a path! discussion... am now building a new local repo with all things setup to be able to contribute properly to the Ren/C effort.
 
Ren Garden now working again.
 
@MarkI exactly. if we had a start/end marker for a super path type, then at least you can easily track where it ends in code (and code which parses the language)
back to git twidling
 
@moliad Right, and then then that could be done as well or better by interpreting a block.
Enjoy twiddling, it's my second-favourite hobby ...
 
6:21 PM
@MarkI (see you got my endgame ;-)
 
6:36 PM
what is the easiest way to update a fork from its origin? just pulling its master back into yours?
 
@Maarten (and note for everyone) How formal we move to process with Ren/C (and Ren/C++)...and how much process is instituted...is going to be largely dependent on how much support and contributions are incoming. Methods will adapt to what works for stakeholders who are doing a percentage of "giving back".
@earl was skeptical that it's worth it right now, for instance, to freeze a master branch that we know to build on random platforms like HaikuOS or Syllable, or even for any platforms the developers aren't working on. That the real answer is to have automated checks on that, and any attempts to create "tagged stable" right now would be misguided vs. the real solution. And people who want to participate will have to fend for themselves until a bit.
It would be great if there were enough people working to really make process pay off, and I think things like using the newly checked in git pre-commit hook is an example of something we can do right now, today, cheaply. We may need more of that than a formal release and tagging system right now.
And if someone is bored, they can rewrite that perl script in Rebol and that would be good. :-)
 
7:01 PM
has the change to revert to R2 based skip notation been applied to any of the current Rebol branches? I remember this as the only conscensus achieved at the montreal devcon... even Carl was in the 'twas a bad idea to use 0 as go back by one' camp (which seemed to include everyone present.)
Rather, the INDEX notation of series... not the skip notation.
a decision already applied in Red AFAIK
 
@moliad There's what's known as the "indexing compromise". To my view the primary person to speak to on that is @ShixinZeng in terms of how to time that.
It affects not just skip, but any selection by index.
The idea is that 0 is a "hole" now, and block/0 is an error, as is PICK.
 
yes. it actually only affects selection by index. and has this been applied officially in R3?
 
It has not yet. I suppose we should ask also @rebolek and anyone else who has a lot of code about it.
Not in terms of "should it be done" but in terms of "how can we do it to make things least buggy or painful"
We could have some kind of warning analysis switch, so that if you use a negative index in an indexing selection it would tell you so and point out the line to help with review. So it runs in the old mode but gives you a list of locations where that's happening.
 
well, I think, Ren/C is a good place to do it. we are specifically trying to address things which have been left standing as-is for a long time... to me that is probably the biggest one to address the fastest, such that any additional work doesn't need to be fixed.
 
So --index-audit as a command line switch or something like that, where it tells you the negative indexing locations that would need to be changed.
But still runs in the old semantics.
 
7:08 PM
I'd also add a command-line and/or compile switch that forces the new behavior. I wouldn't start working on R3 code with this Damocles sword dangling over it.
well, the new-old behavior ;-)
 
Well, the auditing feature or whatever would be in the same checkin that did the change I'd be saying. Switch it but give people a way to go back that prints out warnings.
And yes, I think a sooner-rather-than-later approach is probably best.
 
ok. so maybe a 2 phase approach:
1-we add warnings by default right now, when 0 or negative index are used.
 
This was among things that made the Red port deemed unacceptable, as there is a lot of direct indexing in Red.
The warnings aren't very useful if fixing them wouldn't help you.
Hence, a mode that puts you in legacy run with the warnings and then if you don't use legacy mode you get new behavior and no warnings.
 
2-we implement the change and add a switch to keep the previous functionality (--index-audit, as you suggest :-)
 
BrianH was promoting a gentler phasing in which abstractions kind of like what I used for Red be introduced ("first-back, second-back") and there's a wave where all code is converted to that, and then later converted back to the indexing.
While I suppose there's some prudence in that sort of approach for some things, it sounds like churn/busywork
 
7:13 PM
with the add a warning right now we start alerting people that the change is coming and it bothers them... we could add a switch to make it quiet (--index-audit-quiet).
 
The people using this need to be ready. The main people advocating for zero-based indexing weren't made happy by what was done anyway, and the people on board with this effort are ready for a Rebol that goes to the right indexing now.
 
this temporary phase takes almost no time to implement and disseminates the future approach, so people don't get bit when we get to implementing it and making sure all the mezz and internals, and important scripts are up to date.
 
The indexing compromise itself takes little time as it has been written AFAIK
So the warning is the only thing that will take time.
 
@moliad I hope you're not talking about any kind of auto-self-upgrading Rebol, but without that an "alerting" version of Rebol will achieve very little.
I like the one-phase approach, your step (2) only.
 
4 mins ago, by HostileFork
The warnings aren't very useful if fixing them wouldn't help you.
 
7:16 PM
I guess no one is using RenC compiled stuff right now. so there might be no point as you say.
 
It needs to be done, let's just figure out how to do it a good way.
Even fairly minor changes can cause large disruptions:
 
but maybe add a (temporary) second switch then... --neg-index-warn which uses the new method, but still gives a warning on all 0/negative indices, such that if you are running/fixing code, you can more easily detect where to fix things, while you run it under the new model.
 
That doesn't make sense, because you won't very successfully be running code under the new model if it depended on the negative index semantics of the old way.
You will crash and burn fairly quickly
You don't piecemeal fix it; you have to do it somewhat globally. In fact, an ideal tool might be able to tag the lines where it noticed negative indexes directly in source (if Rebol had better mappings when an expression originated from source vs. being fully dynamic)
Some comment put at the end of the line, for instance. ;-- NEGATIVE INDEXING FOUND
 
@HostileForkthanks for the patches. Idon't know how you get them out that fast, I can hardly build so fast!
 
:-)
 
7:21 PM
@HostileFork yes, precisely the point. at some point, you have to run your code and see if it really works. but you get warnings along the way
 
Off note @ShixinZeng - is there documentation on r3's library interface?
 
I don't see the point of warnings on negative indexing if you're running on code you've already fixed negative indexing on...
You'll get false warnings on things you've fixed.
 
@HostileFork the point of the new model was to handle a continual range of indices. these are calculated on the fly and in loops... these may be excessively hard to trap.
 
The only alternative would be to have some sort of refinement that was documentation-oriented like pick/review ... or pick/reviewed, depending on whether you framed it as putting the refinement on and then taking it off. Then as you review them you do it.
@moliad We're not program-proving, and there's not enough Rebol3 code out there to justify going crazy with it, but we'd like to give people some sort of heads up and not run into quite the issue as with Cyphre's thing above. There will be problems if people don't audit the code with their eyeballs but I don't know exactly how common--in the codebases that matter--this issue actually comes up.
From my point of view it's @ShixinZeng, @earl, @rebolek, @rgchris who have the main say in how this is done.
 
@HostileFork you'll get warning on every negative index... including those you might have missed. the point is only to detect and fix code. this issue is the kind where the bug lays dormant until a nuclear reactor goes boom.
 
7:26 PM
So why don't we wait until we hear their opinions.
@moliad Using Rebol of any version for nuclear reactors is not currently advised, and will probably not be advised ever.
 
@HostileFork yep.
 
@HostileFork time for some zzzzz almost, but I am a bit further:

[ 37%] Building CXX object examples/CMakeFiles/function-1.dir/function-1.cpp.o
Linking CXX executable function-1
Undefined symbols for architecture x86_64:
"_OS_Close_Library", referenced from:
_Host_Lib_Init in libRenCpp.a(rebol-os-lib-table.cpp.o)
"_OS_Config", referenced from:
_Host_Lib_Init in libRenCpp.a(rebol-os-lib-table.cpp.o)
"_OS_Crash", referenced from:
_Host_Lib_Init in libRenCpp.a(rebol-os-lib-table.cpp.o)
 
@HostileFork could be in a game ;-)
 
@Maarten Oh noes. I thought the host-table.inc was going to free us from this forever. Unless, hm, unless there was a patch for OS/X specifically in the makefile that screws it up when it doesn't need the patch anymore. Let me look.
 
@Maarten I've written a little about it on github.com/zsx/r3/wiki
you can find some examples under github.com/zsx/r3/tree/atronix/make/tests
 
7:33 PM
@Maarten Is there a file in your ren-c/make/objs/ directory called host-error.o ?
 
@Maarten I noticed that you are compiling with CMake, are you using my make-cmake.r?
 
@ShixinZeng He's building Ren/C++ and Ren Garden
Which will be happy to have a CMake dependency for Ren/C, so if there are edits it can notice and rebuild the dependency...
 
got it
 
how can I pull a single commit from another repo in a specific branch?
can I only pull the current complete branch?
 
7:38 PM
thx
 
Note the remark that's just for a single commit, and rebase is the generalized tool.
Learning to use rebase -i sooner rather than later is well worth the time invested.
 
rebase is the one thing I have not played with yet. My current needs show that its the right time to get to know it :-)
 
Always bearing in mind the fundamental truth in Git, that if a commit changes...anything in it (code... commit comment... date... email address of who wrote it) its hash changes. The hash is the ID of the commit, and so anything that depends on it will have that dependency broken.
And commits hash their parents IDs for who they merged from or derive from.
Which means it cascades. You didn't just break from that commit, but all the commits that depended on that commit.
 
gtg, I've got an indoor mountain climbing session. see you all some time later this week.
 
TTYL
 
7:56 PM
@HostileFork Are we talking about pick/index again? My preference is still zero-based index, one-based pick. pick series 0 is meaningless.
 
e.g. you like pick/index for pickz?
 
Sure. If we have to have a pickz, pick/index seems the way to go.
 
Some might consider that wordy, and also the question of "In pick index 1, if 1 isnt an index, what is it"
>> help pick
@HostileFork:
USAGE:
	PICK aggregate index

DESCRIPTION:
	Returns the value at the specified position.
	PICK is an action value.

ARGUMENTS:
	aggregate (series! map! gob! pair! date! time! tuple! bitset! port!)
	index -- Index offset, symbol, or other value to use as index
 
Ok— index(-of|?) returns a position, pick returns a item. If you do pickz, what is the effective operation?
 
PICK should take a "selector" probably
Or something like that
 
8:00 PM
If you have a line of apples on your table, you wouldn't say pick the zeroeth apple.
PICK/AT
Uses index's positional language...
pick/at [foo bar] 0
 
Well I guess the point being that it's still not completely pinned down. :-) We also have the problem of SERIES! having a position in it, and then talking about indexes or positions in that SERIES!... with no real name for what the series points into.
One might argue that the type itself should be POSITION!
x: make series! [a b c]
offset? series ;-- error

pos: make position! compose [block! (x) 2]
take pos ;-- 'b
One could expose this mechanic.
And just have it understood in the evaluator that an unquoted series becomes a position at the head of that series, defaulted to block...
So if you wanted the head of that series, as a position, you'd simply say pos: x
If you wanted the actual series, pos: :x
I dunno, just thinking for a moment here.
A position at the head of a series might coerce to the series itself, while other positions would not. Hmmm hmm, random thoughts.
About getting terminology right.
Today, we don't encode in the series entity its type. That's solely the business of the references. Mechanically, you can have the same series imaged as a PAREN!, a PATH!, and a BLOCK! and it "works".
It would probably trip up same? however.
It might be a little clearer that a position is a cursor style insertion point that lives "between" elements.
Hm. Looking for a term for non-composite types. This includes INTEGER! and DATE! and UNSET! and NONE!. ATOM! vs SCALAR! ?
It is a problem with things like TUPLE!...
What I'm trying to say with ATOM! is "does not contain other values, not a composite"
Which is more useful to me than some abstract SCALAR! test, in practical terms.
Tuple throws a wrench into it, but I don't like TUPLE! in the first place.
 
8:23 PM
From one perspective, tuples do not contain other values, as there are no byte values.
They are no more composite than a date, which also has multiple (integer) accessors.
Oops dates are not scalar!, dang.
If a time! is a scalar then a date! should be also, anyone disagree?
 
Tough terminology. The POSITION! and SERIES! idea above now has me thinking. It's interesting to imagine that [a b c] could be a SERIES! but then have the evaluator turn a SERIES! literal into a POSITION!... suddenly we do have a difference between '[a b c] and [a b c]
 
@HostileFork There's immediate!, and just looking quickly it seems only unset! is neither immediate nor composite.
 
I'm trying to think of a name for anything that isn't an unset!, that isn't set!.
valid! ?
 
As good as anything. As long as only unset! is invalid.
 
something! works for anything that isn't none! and isn't unset!
 
8:31 PM
I like that too.
Interesting. There is no immediate?. Why not?
 
I don't really know what that would mean.
 
Are you talking to me? <end Taxi Driver mode>
 
That would be Goodfellas mode.
 
@HostileFork Taxi Driver did it first.
 
@MarkI Function definition time. Why would you want to specify it at call time?
 
8:43 PM
Anyways, immediate? is to immediate! as scalar? is to scalar!.
 
Hm, no you're right. I guess I have that confused with the "do I look like a clown to you" funny bit
 
If it existed, it would be, that is.
@earl I can see a need to use both in the same function.
MY-WHILE calls MY-IF twice, once transparently and once not, for a (probably bad) example.
 
@MarkI I don't think I'm imaginative enough to follow.
 
@earl No worries, I'll come up with a better way of posing the question, thanks.
 
For the part of such a situation I can imagine, I think you'd need both functions to cooperate anyway. (I.e. one being aware of the implemetation details of the other.) In that case, there are easier ways to achieve the "here I'll pass you some code where I want X to return from you" / "now I'll pass you some other code, where I want X to mean to return from me" use case I envision.
 
8:48 PM
@earl So the callee would interpret 'X, instead of bare return?
That might make the (passed-in) code block harder to read, though that's probably a small concern in this use case.
Let me chew a bit.
 
If that scenario is what you envision as well, in the cooperating case there are easy ways to achieve that, irrespective of if you want X to be RETURN or something else to set up that coordination.
Like passing a block with pre-composed RETURN, if you know the callee rebinds RETURN.
MY-IF [... return ...] vs MY-IF compose [... (:return) ...].
@Luis Did you use plain SAVE or SAVE/all? If you haven't, give SAVE/all a try; it's possible that it magically fixes things for you. Similarly, if you didn't use the SAVE function directly, but WRITE + MOLD, try using MOLD/all.
 
@earl Review comments/impressions? github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/pull/24/files
 
@HostileFork Not yet.
@ShixinZeng Very cool. I briefly started playing with that yesterday as well, good to know that I can continue to play with something already further along :)
 
9:18 PM
@MarkI What's the plan for how to say that we want to output a block literal as opposed to a block construct?
@HostileFork That's a very good idea. Even if it's just a "warning" switch without any actual change in behaviour, for starters.
 
@earl I'll reiterate that I don't see the point of giving someone a warning unless you are running with the old behavior, and that it needs to be under a switch such as you can run the code once you've responded to the warning.
Otherwise you make a list of where you've got negative indexes and...
look at the list
and think "gee, hm, if only I could do something with these warnings. like run the code after I fixed them somehow."
 
Partly agreed, that it will be nicer if you can fix them without big changes.
But you can fix them even without the new behaviour in place, once you know where they are.
 
By rewriting your code in a completely different way?
 
Yes, sometimes.
Just slightly more intrusive fixes. Such as switching to PICKZ, or switching from paths to first-back, etc.
 
I still don't very much like PICKZ/POKEZ/INDEXZ...
 
9:25 PM
But mostly just a question of how much effort the full fix + switchability is. If it's all the same, switch + compromise impl is certainly the better approach.
@HostileFork Alternative suggestions?
 
Heh, well it could be a job for lit-bit. :-) foo/'-1
foo/'(index - 4)
A refinement would be preferable, we were trying to figure out if there is any name for this... already "index" on pick isn't an index, it's a "selector"
Perhaps pick/index goes by a zero based index, and we could say that an index of 4 is different than a selector of 4. I dunno.
But then that asks why not look for the number 4. Hm. Maybe that is the job for lit-bit here.
foo: [1 a 2 b 3 c 4 d]
pick foo/'4 => d
Whoa. Did I just find a use for "literal 4"?
Hmmmmmmm
If foo/:bar were replaced with foo/bar and foo/bar with foo/'bar that is more consistent but maybe ugly. It wouldn't need to affect refinements, just field and member selection.
But anyway, not necessary to use literal 4.
>> select [a b (c d) e] quote (c d)
== none
That seems like it should work, and if it did, so should foo: [a b (c d) e] foo/'(c d)
 
@HostileFork Somehow, I don't like a refinement much, for this case. I remember that others didn't, either (but that was probably performance arguments I generally don't buy).
 
Well I feel like there's a name problem, we've got index, offset, selector... and the heavy "index" vs. "zero-based index"
 
One part why I'd prefer pickz et al, is that they could be much more restrictive than pick.
>> pick make map! [a 1 b 2] 'b
== 2
 
9:41 PM
Perhaps with a hyphen? pick-z
 
>> pick now 'hour
== 23
 
It would read as "pick zee" and not "pix"
 
zpick/zpoke/zindex one alternative ...
(Though zindex is overloaded ...)
 
Yup, wouldn't do that
pick-z feels more literate.
 
Hyphen is too noisy, for my taste :/
 
9:42 PM
pickz too incoherent for mine.
You could make it the behavior with floats. :-)
 
Re github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/commit/… (extern char **environ)
I don't think environ is supposed to be in stdlib.h, it generally is a link-time thing.
There's a Gnuism where it is present in unistd.h.
So the EXTERN should also be present in plain Linux builds. Just having a look where the redundant definition might have come from.
 
@earl Look away... (well, don't look away. but, look at it all you want)
 
Ah, got it.
_GNU_SOURCE is the actual culprit
 
Is it necessary for something else?
 
_GNU_SOURCE? No idea, just looked at the full code.
1
A: where is the definition of extern char **environ?

triclosanman: This variable must be declared in the user program, but is declared in the header file unistd.h in case the header files came from libc4 or libc5, and in case they came from glibc and _GNU_SOURCE was defined.

 
9:49 PM
I presume it must be. Bear in mind these files were an attempt to reign in this
So I made a lot of little files, and it may be that the inclusion is only needed for something under Linux.
So the right answer might be to strike it from that file (and do a search for other files that don't need it), put extern back in with a link to that SO question.
 
From just looking at host-config.c, nothing strikes me as immediately obvious that could require _GNU_SOURCE.
So it may really be just a leftover no longer needed after the praiseworthy host modularisation.
 
Probably so. And there are probably other unnecessary headers to clean up there too.
 
Yeah, #includes for that file look excessive.
On a related note, yesterday I also started on a quick spree dropping third-party code, as mentioned earlier.
 
@earl Good, though I'm not quite sure how easy that's going to be to separate. I did sort of try and use a little bit of an eye on when to go in and change things to use cast(..., ...) vs leaving it as (...)... if I thought it was something that would need an extraction script.
Though it raises questions about Rebol's guarantees on memory usage if it leaves in mallocs and all in these pieces. How far that guarantee goes.
 
Was fairly trivial. Effect: no BMP, GIF, PNG, JPEG; no (DE)COMPRESS, ENCLOAK & DECLOAK, no RANDOM/secure; no SHA1, MD5; uncompressed bootstrap code.
 
9:58 PM
Did you figure out if there's a redundancy on that lodePNG thing with PNG/compress?
 
Two PNGs, yes.
(Also: TLS and prerequisites also dropped.)
 
LodePNG also claims to be independent of zlib, does that mean two inflate/deflates?
 
I think so, yes. AFAIR, LodePNG just contains parts of zlib verbatim.
(But that may be a total misrepresentation. Maybe it's just parts that are redundant with zlib.)
 
Didn't the existing PNG do both compression and decompression? Do you know the motivation for this other library?
 
I think lodepng was added by Saphirion once as a workaround because the present u-png.c was broken in some way and just adding a redundant, additional piece of code proved easier than fixing the broken piece.
Whereas they needed working PNG support quickly.
In any case, I think it's good that getting a Rebol to build and work without those parts is fairly trivial.
I think we should drive that further, and choose item by item if we want to more strongly declare it as an external dependency we use, or if we fully incorporate that code and want to support it directly.
 
10:06 PM
Well compression/decompression is a good place to start. Though one might argue that only decompression is "foundational"
 
And add the necessary tick boxes so that we can have a working, minimalist core build, that doesn't depend on "used" external code.
 
Yup, basically being able to tick those boxes and get back a more-or-less-rebolsource was the idea
Of starting from the heavy branch
 
What I was actually trying to do, is getting a PPC64 build to work. It doesn't. And I suspect it's something in those 3rd party bits (probably compression) that's the cause.
So I wanted to get rid of that stuff, before looking more closely.
 
What do you have with a PPC64?
 
A beast of a machine.
 
10:10 PM
G5 mac?
 
16-core POWER7
Some not-too-old IBM pSeries boxes.
 
Well, if it's the motivation for separation, then good work power7
 
Related idea: how about using paths for target identification?
 
I suggested it earlier, the numbers might seem weird in it.
 
linux/arm/32/le/bionic
 
10:22 PM
NewPath wouldn't mind. But it might be best as version: [2.4.1 linux/arm/32/le/bionic] instead of gluing it all together.
 
I'm just thinking in addition to the platform tuple, at the moment.
As a successor of the current system/platform:
>> ? system/platform
SYSTEM/PLATFORM is a block of value: [
    Linux libc6-2-11-x86
]
 
Might get the systems.r table back all on one row.
Or not
 
(system/platform is what is driven by the weird %platforms.r)
(And I might have been too blame for the original introduction of it :/)
It was well-intentioned, but I don't think the 2-element-block thingie scales well with the multitude of potential targets.
 

« first day (1724 days earlier)      last day (2056 days later) »