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12:24 AM
@marcog ohh crazy xD
 
@JohannesSchaublitb was loads of fun though!
 
1:07 AM
@FredOverflow Huh, people posting 80's music videos. I thought it would be a C++ lecture.
 
Ah, Johannes. OK, here's a silly question for you, just something I ran into: a function f has a single argument of pointer type, with a default value v. When do you get different effect from f() than f(v)?
Uh, OK, that's so open ended that you probably can't figure out what I stumbled upon. But here's the thing: the pointer type is specified in terms of template type argument. And with f() type deduction not take place and compilation fails, while f(v) works nicely, and I wonder why?
 
1:37 AM
@Alf names in a default argument expression are bound at the time they appear in code
 
Well, I don't understand that.
 
@Alf argument deduction won't take default arguments into account
sorry didn't read your second half. reason f() doesn't work is teh argument deduction not taking default arguments into account
 
Hm, that's sort of what I don't understand, that it doesn't take a place. I'd imagined f() to simply be a shorthand for f(v), with compiler translating the former to the latter. But no, it isn't?
 
i don't know the real reason of why it isn't. but one fact certainly contributing to it is that a default argument could make use of T too
although in such a case, the function parameter could just be made a non-deduced context
 
@AlfPSteinbach why not use a default template argument either?
 
1:45 AM
here is what i mean: template<typename T> void f(T t = T()); <- couldn't deduce T by using the default arg. but if you say template<typename T> void f(T = 0); it seems to me if you do f(); it could use the function default argument and deduce T to int.
but c++ won't do so -.-
note that default arguments neither influence overload resolution. maybe that's part of why they are ignored during template argument deduction?
 
@Johannes: actually what I did was more like <code>template <class T> void foo( Blah<T>* = static_cast<Blah<X>* >( 0 ) )</code>
uh, what was the markup for code?
 
foo
bar
i think you need to post code in a separate post
like this
 
@AlfPSteinbach use grave accent for inline.
 
The default argument thing was just an idea.
 
1:48 AM
(indent 4 spaces, use shift+enter to suppress sending when typing newlines)
 
Actually what I want is to get 'get' as a member function here.
#include <iostream>
#include <string>


//------------------------ Common support:

namespace option {

    template< class Name, class ValueType >
    class Value
    {
    template< class N, class V >
        friend V const& get( Value< N, V > const& );
    template< class N, class V, class A >
        friend void set( Value< N, V >&, A const& );

    private:
        ValueType   value_;

    public:
        Value( ValueType const& v = ValueType() )
            : value_( v )
        {}
    };
 
@Alf yes in fact in C++0x you can use @jweyrich's idea and use default template arguments for your function
 
(I'm trying to dumb down my earlier options class support so it becomes simple enough internally to be grokkable enough to be usable!)
 
though it will have a slightly different semantics as far as i can see:
template <class T = X> void foo( Blah<T>* = static_cast<Blah<T>* >( 0 ) )
 
The code posting didn't work.
 
1:50 AM
now if you do foo<Y>() it will not fail, contrary to what you wanted to achieve
 
Trying once more:
Ok, piecemeal, then:
namespace option {

    template< class Name, class ValueType >
    class Value
    {
    template< class N, class V >
        friend V const& get( Value< N, V > const& );
    template< class N, class V, class A >
        friend void set( Value< N, V >&, A const& );

    private:
        ValueType   value_;

    public:
        Value( ValueType const& v = ValueType() )
            : value_( v )
        {}
    };

    template< class Name, class ValueType >
    ValueType const& get(
        Value< Name, ValueType > const& option
 
you could do
template <class U, class T = X> void foo( Blah<U>* = static_cast<Blah<T>* >( 0 ) )
tho
damn :)
 
//------------------------ A particular options class & test program:

namespace name {
    typedef struct width_namestruct*    width;
    typedef struct height_namestruct*   height;
    typedef struct title_namestruct*    title;
}    // namespace name

struct Options
    : option::Value< name::width, int >
    , option::Value< name::height, int >
    , option::Value< name::title, std::string >
{
public:
    template< class Name, class ActualArgType >
    Options& with( ActualArgType const& v )
 
template <class U, class T = X> void foo( Blah<U>* = static_cast<Blah<T>* >( 0 ) )
 
int main()
{
    using namespace std;
    using namespace name;
    using namespace option;

    Options const   o   = Options()
                            .with<width>( 82 )
                            .with<height>( 19 )
                            .with<title>( "My button" );

    cout << "Width  = " << get<width>( o ) << endl;
    cout << "Height = " << get<height>( o ) << endl;
    cout << "Title  = \"" << get<title>( o ) << "\"" << endl;
}
 
1:54 AM
beware of o.set<foo>
 
Goodie. That's the code. Now the (higher level) problem is: to determine the result type for 'get' as a member function.
 
with some pedantic compilers it may cause errors with using namespace std; in place
 
@JohannesSchaublitb yes, i know
 
ah brace fail. i thought set / get are member functions lol
 
Hello, are there any people here able to help me moderate/delete a question related to C++?
 
1:56 AM
@Dominar paste the link.
 
@tina hiya
 
@AlfPSteinbach "get" is supposed to be a friend function?
 
I've asked a question, the only answer that has come up, is totally wrong has nothing to do with the question, and the poster wont remove it, I would like to delete the enter question and repost it again.
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4643039/c0x-and-the-lack-of-polymorphic-lambdas-why
I believe there are puppets at play, as i had only asked the question for 2-3 mins and the answer came and was upvoted 6 times!
 
@jweyrich Not necessarily, but as a non-member it is.
 
also how do you want to go from width<Name> to option::Value<Name, T> ?
how to find out T
 
1:58 AM
yes
exactly
works ok with code above but that's not perfect
perfect would be with get and "with" as member functions
within constraint of being simple to grok (my earlier scheme does all the stuff and more but it's ungrokkable on inside)
 
ah i understand how it works now
 
i thought i could somehow use default argument to help deduce return type but no
 
sonow you wanna have get figure out ret type
 
somehow. can't declare it without return type
 
why doesn't it already work?
oh you mean as member!
lol i fail hard
 
2:04 AM
I'll put the code on pastebin or somewhere. The pasting here doesn't work. In my FIrefox at least.
 
I guess no one can help.
 
sadly the special rule that an argument can be a derived class of a parameter during template argument deduction only is in effect for deduction of function calls
that is, it won't work for partial specializations. if it would, i think we could do something
 
@AlfPSteinbach oh, you just saved a panda. My 13" screen is known for making me MAD at scrolling up & down to read code.
 
if only you could get o.get not return in an ambiguity. then you could manage o.get< ... to look up the get in all the base classes, and the "right" base class wouldn't SFINAE it out and it would Just Work
 
@jweyrich LOL. What's panda?
 
2:10 AM
@AlfPSteinbach see 4chan.stackexchange.com
 
@Johannes: 'get' can be implemented in the Option<...> base classes, but then is required 'using' statement to bring those names into Options class scope (otherwise ambiguity). And then code for implementing Options class becomes as long as implementing those getter functions manually...
 
i think you could manage to get syntax o.::get<name>::get(); but that looks plain ugly xD
i mean o.get<name>::get();
you would make option<name, T> derive from get<name> which would have a get function returning the T
or for more pleasant results it could read o.option<name>::get();
hm but that would name-clash :)
 
@jweyrich: I went there but got this: "Couldn't find 4chan.stackexchange.com"
 
but that's an ugly idea anyway. i better forget about it again
 
@Dominar sorry, wasn't meant for you. I edited my message for @Alf.
 
2:14 AM
@Alf the only functions that will not cause ambiguity are conversion functions
but i'm not sure how they can be "abused" to fit into the picture :)
 
He he, it's an /interesting/ exercise, this. :-)
 
if you derive from Options<option::Value<name1, T1>, option::Value<name2, T2>, ..., option::Value<nameN, TN> > then you know the mapping from *this to option::Value<nameX, Tx> can only result in the integers from 1...N
 
that way, as return type you could call an overload set created by the Options base class, with candidates returning a char(&)[1..N], and you take the sizeof of the candidate, which you in turn use to index a type-tuple consisting of <T1, T2, ..., TN>
something along the lines of template<typename Name> typename Options::index<sizeof Options::map<Name>(this)>::type get();
template<typename Name> typename Options::index<sizeof Options::map<Name>(this)>::type get();
 
hm. how to get the type map automatically created?
 
2:23 AM
oh wait that won't work.
or it will... option<NameN, Tn> will be base classes of Options<...> in turn
so the map candidates would be declared as identity<char[1]>::type &map(option<Name1, T1>*); identity<char[2]>::type &map(option<Name2, T2>*); ...
just make Options have a template<typename O1 = none1, typename O2 = none2, ..., typename OMax = noneMax>
you can then write each map as identity<char[N]>::type &map(ON*); noneN would be some unique struct type.
lol
that won't work at all lol. should pass map<Name> down
but somehow like this i think it should work haha
 
I can't see how o.get would deduct the return type. Not even a single way.
 
@Alf i will try writing it
 
Thx. :_)
 
if you have decltype available, this becomes trivial
 
2:41 AM
c++98
 
@Dominar Please, stop attacking other users. If an answer isn't good for you, just explain the reason. If your question is clear enough, people will figure out and vote-down the bad ones. Otherwise, invest your time getting your question clear (not the case here, IMO). My rule of thumb is: I'll just post something if it's constructive or could guide people to what I believe is correct.
 
2:57 AM
@Alf works!
hmm i guess i will declare "get" in "Options" and then make it work with gcc<4.5
oh wait i forgot to change main. fail
i abused surrogate call functions to avoid having to manually declare named functions in OptionList.
 
3:17 AM
@JohannesSchaublitb how does sizeof(*(OptionList*)0) (*(Name*)0) exactly work? I don't get it. sigh
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Visual C++ 10.0 won't have any of that "surrogate call"
@Johannes: thanks, it's very smart, I think perhaps surrogate call can be worked around
@Johannes: if I post blog article I will cite you. ;-)
@Johannes: also remains to make work for heirarchy of options classes... He he.
 
@Alf great :)
@jweyrich it's parsed as
sizeof  ((*(OptionList*)0) (*(Name*)0))
calls an object of type OptionList. @jweyrich i think it may be a good SO question asking about surrogate call functions. not sure whether there is one already
@Alf hmm if you already have the list of names and their value types in Options, maybe it's better to just omit all that surrogate crap and put the definitions right into index.
this one is considerable cleaner: codepad.org/ZWuyrBS5 .
that surrogate call stuff would only be needed if you want to solve it in c++0x and with decltype, in which case you don't need the intermediate OptionList at all. you could just let the operator Rf*() return value_type const& instead of an array reference. But if you already have an OptionList then you could aswell ditch all that :)
 
3:38 AM
@Johannes: either you're very very smart or I'm a bit tired, or both. <g>
 
@Alf ohh bad news. I'm plain stupid
 
lol
srsly, my code is all crap. maybe @James has a better idea
 
lolwut?
If @JohannesSchaublitb is stupid, that's not good news for the rest of us.
4
And, welcome back, @AlfPSteinbach
 
3:47 AM
@JohannesSchaublitb Two people upvoted that. How sad.
@JohannesSchaublitb How far up do I have to read?
 
oh i suspect it's up to 2:51 CET
 
@JamesMcNellis Thx. I've had a long Christmas + New Year holiday up in freezing Arctic
Almost
:-)
 
afk for a while
 
I've got nothing. I'll have to revisit this discussion tomorrow when I can focus. At the moment, the Arabs and the Americans are invading my English settlement in Southeast Asia. (Also: I recommend not buying Civilization V. I haven't gotten anything productive done all weekend.)
 
4:08 AM
:P
lol "Why don't you link to the chat room where you and your buddies ganged up and decided to close that question and help yourselves to a "reversal badge"? "
 
 
13 hours later…
4:58 PM
i don't believe this chat interface works and i'm going to prove it right now by sending this message.
oh.
my mistake.
 
lol @runcible
 
@Runcible: >>ERROR<< Chat interface not currently implemented. Message not sent.
 
=)
 
 
1 hour later…
6:22 PM
hey
 
@DeadMG: howdy
 
why did the C++0x committee choose to drop concepts?
 
I think I heard something about not enough time. @litb would be the one to ask
 
ah ok
 
6:42 PM
@DeadMG: Herb Sutter gave a good overview on his blog: herbsutter.com/2009/07/21/trip-report
Though he doesn't say explicitly what the technical issues were, he implies that the issues were so numerous that they were going to delay C++0x if they kept concepts in.
 
and it's not like C++0x isn't delayed enough
 
Bartosz Milewski gave a presentation a couple of months ago at NWCPP called "Understanding C++ Concepts through Haskell Type Classes". I thought he rambled a bit in the presentation, but at some point he and Walter Bright discussed the issues that resulted in Concepts getting dropped (unfortunately, I don't remember what it was.)
I asked him during the presentation what, exactly, concepts gave us that we couldn't achieve using overloading on tags (e.g. as is done in the algorithm library). His answer was basically the same as what Herb said in that blog post: "Concepts are almost entirely about getting better error messages."
(Having thought about it since then, I also think concepts would make policy-based design much cleaner because you could document it more naturally.)
And that is the extent of my knowledge of concepts.
 
hmm
I think that's wrong
or maybe I'm just confusing myself with my own ideas of concepts
 
Oh yes, and there were also ADL issues that could be "fixed" through the use of concepts; that was what the bulk of the presentation focused on.
The ADL issue is the same one I discussed in RE: Fred's question: What are the pitfalls of ADL?
 
7:02 PM
what I don't get is
why not just keep operators as member functions?
 
7:16 PM
i think it's a little confusing to call that concept "concepts"
 
I'd rather think of them as constraints
 
8:01 PM
"...with a better than average grasp of xHMTL and CSS." stackoverflow.com/questions/184618/…
I'd hate to see average
 
sbi
8:17 PM
@DeadMG ASFAIR, there were two opposing camps regarding a few important issues, which to unify would have taken months of moderation. So they pulled the plug, declaring the feature as "deferred".
 
0
A: What does it mean to have array with size in function parameters

5N0U7check out this post http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/beginner/5284/

disturbing answer
 
sbi
@DeadMG For starters, because using non-members increases encapsulation.
But also because you don't want different behavior for the left and right operand of binary infix operators.
2
 
8:36 PM
@sbi sorry, that's a common misconception
differing behavior is a significant reason, however
@DeadMG it is, perhaps, unfortunate that teaching which operator overloads should always be non-members is so difficult; "perhaps" because I'd have to compare to an alternative that includes ADL or functional equivalent
I'm not convinced ADL is always good for any language, but I think it's more or less required without drastically changing how function overloading (of all functions, not just operator functions) works in C++
 
sbi
@FredNurk Er, what? The misconception is that making things members is increasing encapsulation. Note that I wrote the opposite. (Or are you the only C++ pro on this planet who hasn't read Meyers' article on the subject?)
 
@ALL We can't use "this" keyword in constructor because object construction gets complete only after returning from constructor. And "this" is something that points to a fully constructed object. Is my justification correct ?
 
@sbi I have read it, and people misunderstanding him is the common misconception I'm talking about: encapsulation is the result of overall design, not whether some X is a member or non-member, or any other specific technique
 
@Mahesh not really. There are some potential pitfalls with using this in a constructor and that can be to do with the fact that construction hasn't completed for the object in question, but it's not that you can't use it.
 
@sbi: rather than "using non-members increases encapsulation", he says "using non-members doesn't inherently decrease encapsulation"
 
8:46 PM
the article is confusingly titled, in that case...
 
or his message is that, gotta be careful with "says" and something that's not a direct quote :)
 
The title of the article is "How Non-Member Functions Improve Encapsulation" -- is that just a bad title?
 
@Runcible: you'd expect to get the whole thesis out of the title of an article? "How Non-Member Functions Improve Encapsulation" is "How [you can use] Non-Member Functions [to] Improve Encapsulation"
 
sbi
@FredNurk So that must be why his article is named "How Non-Member Functions Improve Encapsulation", right?
 
Well, no - I was going to reread the article. I'm just saying that the article has a confusing title if what you're saying is true.
 
sbi
8:49 PM
@FredNurk "I'll start with the punchline: If you're writing a function that can be implemented as either a member or as a non-friend non-member, you should prefer to implement it as a non-member function. That decision increases class encapsulation. When you think encapsulation, you should think non-member functions."
 
@sbi: if you and Runcible are arguing this, then do you also think he is saying non-members always increase encapsulation?
there you go: That decision increases class encapsulation
your design choices result in increased encapsulation; non-members are a tool, not a silver bullet, toward that goal
 
sbi
@FredNurk "Doing A in stead of B will result in Y" does not mean that doing B will not result in Y.
 
@Charles "that can be to do with the fact that construction hasn't completed for the object in question, but it's not that you can't use it." is tricky to understand. Can you make it even simpler to understand, please. Any example of pitfall. Thanks
 
sbi
@FredNurk And who (but your strawman) said they were a silver bullet?
 
I never attributed that to you, there was no strawman
 
8:51 PM
I think we're just approaching the idea of encapsulation from two separate points of view - one from overall design and one from a lower-level implementation.
 
sbi
Well, non-members can increase encapsulation ("when you think encapsulation, you should think non-members"), and that's one good reason to prefer to overload operators as non-members.
 
@Mahesh Well if you pass this to something that expects it to be a fully constructed object then you can hit problems, but there are perfectly good uses for a pointer to a not-yet-constructed object such as storing it for later use, etc.
 
@Runcible: I'm honestly surprised it's such a big deal: it should be obvious non-members can decrease encapsulation, just like they can increase it
@sbi exactly, "can", not how you presented it with "For starters, because using non-members increases encapsulation."
 
sbi
@FredNurk Yes, and using classes can decrease encapsulation, too, if done blatantly stupid. Still, nobody would argue that "use classes for encapsulation" isn't true. So what are you after here?
 
I have a feeling that we agree on 99% of this, and we're arguing the last 1%. =)
 
sbi
8:54 PM
@FredNurk "For starters, using classes increases encapsulation."
Something wrong with that as well?
 
@Runcible and it feels like I'm being purposefully misunderstood, but it's frustrating because I doubt that's the case
@sbi I already said both that and the next, so I'll stop before going in circles
 
sbi
@FredNurk I don't know when you said this, but I'm fine with stopping this madness.
It's 9:57pm here, I just went to the fridge and got me a cold beer, and I'm in no mood to argue. :)
 
lol
 
I'm still hungover from last night (and I got home ~15 hours ago); perfect mood to argue :)
 
sbi
<belch/>
 
8:58 PM
10 PRINT "Classes improve encapsulation": GO TO 10
 
@CharlesBailey sorry, that's a common misconception (ohshi, here we go again)
 
sbi
@CharlesBailey <shudder/> I used this language - 25 years ago.
 
@CharlesBailey Well, that means it isn't guaranteed that reference in the copy constructor need not refer to a fully constructed object. And is this reason, to check whether reference doesn't point to null in the copy constructor ?
 
sbi
That was before I got into hacking my stuff into the machine in actual machine code, using a set of printed tables to translate from the pen-and-paper mnemonics. (No, there wasn't an assembler for the machine I had access to then.)
 
@CharlesBailey "Well, that means it isn't guaranteed that reference in the copy constructor need refer to a fully constructed object. " The previous sentence was contradictory
 
9:02 PM
@Mahesh Do you have a specific example in mind? If you are copying an object of class type that is still being constructed then that's almost certain to be a disaster. References don't point to anything so you can't check them for null, that doesn't make sense.
 
sbi
@Mahesh Basically, there's two problems with this in a constructor.
Problem #1 is that, while executing a base class constructor, this points to an object of base class type, even if the base is a sub-object of a derived class whose constructor is just about to be executed. (So you can't call virtual functions and expect them to dispatch into overloads of the derived class.
Problem #2 is that, while initializing member objects (implicitly or explicitly listed) in the initializer list, this points to a partially constructed object. (So you can't call member functions of this object and expect them to behave sensible.
 
@CharlesBailey Still trying to understand why 'this' cann't be used in constructor
 
sbi
@Mahesh You can, but you need to be careful. See my explanation of problem #2.
 
@sbi Just reading
 
@Mahesh I never said that. I said you can use this in a constructor but you have to be careful.
 
sbi
9:08 PM
@Charles You copied that straight from my message!
(Did I mention I'm into my second beer?)
 
@sbi I just type slower. Anyway, mine has fancy italics and is spelled correctly(ish).
 
sbi
@CharlesBailey I don't believe you! No programmer types slower than I do!
 
argh!
I hate you PIX
 
sbi
@DeadMG Who is PIX?
 
if i populate a vector of pointers using the new keyword, does the vector delete the objects as it would if it were a vector of objects or do I have to call delete on its contents?
 
9:09 PM
It's a Direct3D debugging program
Bocochoco: You have to delete them
My depth buffering isn't working
but PIX can't be bothered to work
so I can't get the debug stuff I need
 
thats what I thought. Thank you.
 
sbi
@CharlesBailey Mine was checked by FF's spillchucker. Did it miss anything?? (Well, I didn't pay for it, and you get what you pay for...)
@Bocochoco You need to use smart pointers.
 
pastebin.com/zZSAVDbs This is my vector, Trying to figure out how to clean up after it.
 
sbi
@Bocochoco This is going to be messy and you've already thrown exception-safety out the window. Did I mention you need to use smart pointers?
 
I'm not good with pointers. :/
 
9:14 PM
That's why you should consider either using a smart pointer, like shared_ptr, or just storing the objects in the vector instead of storing pointers to the objects.
 
@Bocochoco why are using a container of pointers at all?
 
sbi
@Bocochoco Then you shouldn't use naked pointers. (Naked things are only for experienced adults, you know.)
5
 
are you sure you don't just need a vector<vector<piece>>?
 
its somewhat complicated
 
because if you can use it, that single line not only replaces all of your current code in the paste, but also replaces the hypothetical clean-up code :)
 
9:16 PM
piece is an abstract class, i've got several other classes using it as a base. I'm just trying to make a 2d vector which can contain children of the piece class.
 
use a boost::ptr_vector
 
sbi
@FredN Yeah, that's a good one, too. I keep forgetting about those.
 
Either that or shared_ptr, from Boost or TR1 or C++0x.
 
a smart container of pointers and a (dumb) container of smart pointers have subtly different semantics
 
I don't understand pointers too well, was hoping I could figure it out as i went. bad mistake
 
sbi
9:17 PM
Do I see an FAQ entry in this? Who would volunteer? (Not me, I'm thinking very hard about opening a third bottle of beer...)
 
no
it's got much too limited a scope
 
sbi
@Bocochoco This just doesn't work.
 
"Use smart pointers" is pretty much the advice, and it's not really different
 
:/
 
sbi
Wasn't it @Alf who made this incredible pointer tutorial of several dozen of pages?
 
9:18 PM
@sbi after that last conversation about it, I don't think I understand this c++-faq much
 
@sbi Proposed FAQ question: "Should I use raw pointers in my code?" Proposed FAQ answer: "NO." ;-)
@sbi 120 pages +
 
Can I accomplish that weird vector without pointers?
 
@CharlesBailey @sbi Thanks. Do we something like chat history here ?
 
sbi
@JamesMcNellis 10 is several, isn't it? :)
 
@Bocochoco: if you want to store any class derived from Piece, no; but a boost::ptr_vector is easy enough to use
 
sbi
9:20 PM
@Mahesh Click at the v arrow that appears left of any chat message when you hover over it.
 
@sbi Ha. Technically, yes.
 
sbi
@Mahesh (You might want to read the newbie hints linked to at the right.)
 
@sbi Thanks.
 
argh
Direct3D won't use my depth buffer
:(
 
sbi
@DeadMG Sorry, 3D is not for me. I once had a job in a company that does those shiny effects you see on big exhibition screens. 3D, video, audio, mostly done in JS and OpenGL, the former driven by a nice piece of C++ library - which was pretty much done and set into stone when I joined the company. I lasted about ten months, before I left. I don't like polishing the cover, I much rather get my hands dirty fumbling under the hood.
 
9:34 PM
yeah me too
that's why I wrote my own rendering engine
well
am in the process of writing*
the thing I definitely don't like about D3D
it's really hard to find active development communities
even Microsoft's own forums only cater to managed development in C#
 
sbi
@DeadMG Is it? what about the MS newsgroups?
 
what newsgroups?
they have like, five different sets of forums
 
sbi
Oh, out messages must have passed each other over the atlantic...
 
you go onto msdn, you go to the directx dev center, where the front page is covered in C++
then you click for the forums and it's all C#
I mean
I made a depth buffer, I turned it on, and I gave it my projection matrix
what more does it want from me? :(
 
sbi
@DeadMG (I'm trying to find their news server. I used to use this daily, but haven't connected to it in years.)
 
9:42 PM
I haven't used it for a while either
 
sbi
Wow, it seems msnews.microsoft.com is dead. End of an era?
Well, I can't get TB to connect to msnews.microsoft.com. I herewith officially give up.
 
lol
 
sbi
Well, it's dull here, so I guess I'm going to have that third beer I was talking about. See y'all...
 
@JohnDibling: if that worked, why do you think using endl would fail? (I don't understand your answer)
 
@Fred: Yeah, its a mystery to me. If one does, they both should. Clearly something funky is at work here.
@Fred: I'm going to defer to you
 
9:59 PM
and I only have a stab in the dark given the insufficient information :(
 
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