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1:00 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes Is that in the standard?
 
@KerrekSB It's in the portion quoted in the question.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes standard says it returns it's parameter
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I don't even think it matters what it returns. The problem is that the buffer is too small.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes read the portion in the question again :D
 
1:00 AM
Ah, indeed
@MooingDuck No no, we're talking about the expression now.
 
> the result of the new-expression will be offset by this amount from the value returned by operator new[]
 
Ah, indeed
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I missed that
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I see. That really seems to make that placement guy pretty useless...
 
@RMartinhoFernandes why do I argue with you guys? You'd think I'd learn
 
1:01 AM
(Then again, arrays are just not very C++.)
 
@FredOverflow Right, but I think what it returns is key. If it is guaranteed to return the pointer you passed it, it can work. Otherwise it can't.
 
@KerrekSB time to email Stroustrup?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Right, so where is that guarantee?
 
Can't find it.
 
I think we should call Sherlock Holmes and email him a copy of the standard.
 
1:02 AM
lol
 
@FredOverflow § 18.6.1.3 void* operator new[](std::size_t size, void* ptr) noexcept; Returns: ptr. wait, which returns?
 
@MooingDuck But the new-expression may return something else!
We just convinced you of that.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes alright, I got confused about which return value was in question. Yes
 
So much green.
I say something right and people plink me to death.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes also when you're wrong
 
1:05 AM
@MooingDuck But in that case it's deserved :)
 
I got more rep already from kbok's question than the last five days combined :(
 
@MooingDuck I've done the next-best thing.
 
> Thanks a ton for clarifying the question.
@MooingDuck: You're welcome. I'm on my vacation now, so I have plenty of time ;)
 
> @R.MartinhoFernandes What happens if during the cleanup another exception is thrown? :) – FredOverflow 1 min ago
I don't know? std::terminate?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes standard seems clear about that
 
1:12 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes If I knew, I wouldn't have asked :)
 
@FredOverflow pft, you knew that. Even I knew that one.
 
Wait, I think I wrote a FAQ about that some time ago!
 
new i_has_a_throwen_destratar[100] will std::terminate if the tenth fails, no?
 
20
Q: Object destruction in C++

FredOverflowWhen exactly are objects destroyed in C++, and what does that mean? Do I have to destroy them manually, since there is no Garbage Collector? How do exceptions come into play? (Note: This is meant to be an entry to Stack Overflow's C++ FAQ. If you want to critique the idea of providing an FAQ in...

Somewhere in these 5 pages there should be an answer!
 
@RMartinhoFernandes not necessarily. If the tenth fails to construct, but the first 9 correctly destruct, there's still one exception. Thus, no terminate.
 
1:14 AM
> If an exception is thrown during the construction of the n-th element, the elements n-1 to 0 are destructed in descending order, the underlying memory is released, and the exception is propagated.
Damnit, nothing about another exception :(
 
@MooingDuck But they throw in the dtors. I thought I made that obvious from the name :(
 
Isn't that stack unwinding? If so: During stack unwinding, no further exceptions may leave the destructors of the aforementioned previously constructed automatic objects. Otherwise, the function std::terminate is called.
I guess it's not stack unwinding...
 
Let me just say that non-global placement-array-new may still be plenty valuable
 
58
A: throwing exceptions out of a destructor

Loki AstariThrowing an exception out of a destructor is dangerous. If another exception is already propagating the application will terminate. #include <iostream> class Bad { public: ~Bad() { throw 1; } }; int main() { try { Bad bad; } ...

 
@MooingDuck Dynamic arrays do not participate in stack-unwinding. By the way, that particular paragraph took me ages to get right :)
 
1:15 AM
You could use the second argument as an allocator hint, for instance.
The only thing that we've now called in question is the utility of the global array-placement-new.
 
Yes. That looks like a piece of junk.
 
@KerrekSB I wouldn't be surprised if that turned out to be a defect in the standard.
 
In fact, when confronted with the idea of array-placement-new for the first time today, I questioned if it even made sense. It seems it doesn't.
 
me too :)
Hey, after your edit my reply appears to express that I do not make sense :(
 
1:18 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes It may well be one of those things which is just there for completeness, though it's never meant to be used.
 
5.3.4\18 "If any part of the object initialization described above terminates by throwing an exception and a suitable deallocation function can be found, the deallocation function is called to free the memory in which the object was being constructed, after which the exception continues to propagate in the context of the new-expression." Seems to imply it doesn't destruct the rest in that situation. Same as MSVC's vector implimentation.
 
@MooingDuck vector doesn't use array-new. In fact, nobody uses array-new ;-)
If you want raw memory, say ::operator new(n).
 
I use new char[n] (because I can easily stick it in a unique_ptr). Is there a problem?
 
I always use malloc for raw memory, because it has less potential to be confused with new, operator new and placement new ;)
 
@KerrekSB MSVC's vector::~vector leaks everything if any of the internal destructors throws an exception
 
1:21 AM
15.1 Throwing an exception: Paragraph 7: If the exception handling mechanism, after completing evaluation of the expression to be thrown but before the exception is caught, calls a function that exits via an exception, std::terminate is called
 
@RMartinhoFernandes How exactly do you do that? unique_ptr<char[]>(new char[n]) I guess?
 
@FredOverflow Yes.
 
And why would you ever need that? :) Oh wait, that's a stupid question, forget about it.
 
@FredOverflow If you need raw memory, you need to deallocate it somewhere, no?
 
Yes :) I've only used it in stupid example code so far where I didn't care about leaks :)
 
1:23 AM
std::vector<char>(n)?
 
Of course, I still need to handle the objects I construct there myself.
 
@CatPlusPlus That will give you initialized memory. Maybe you want to poke into uninitialized memory and see if there's something interesting there? ;)
 
Xeo
Btw, I think I have an idea why vector(size_type) was made implicit
 
@RMartinhoFernandes It's conceptually gratuitous. Raw memory shouldn't be some constructed area...
 
Xeo
std::vector<std::vector<T>> v(100, 50); // 100 * 50 Ts
 
1:24 AM
@Xeo Well, you don't want to be able to say vector<int> a = 42;
 
and also raw memory is referred to by void*, not char*, so ::operator new(n) is your natural candidate.
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow You can say that in C++11
 
@Xeo Really? How stupid is that?
 
void* can only point.
 
Xeo
It's not stupid for the reason I've shown
 
1:25 AM
@FredOverflow I concede that unique_ptr<T[]> is the only situation I can think of where array-new comes in handy
 
@Xeo It's not implicit.
 
What's the use of that?
 
(but global default array-new only.)
 
"Oh, I've got a piece of memory here."
 
@CatPlusPlus It does look weird to use a vector as raw memory.
 
1:25 AM
"Look how pretty it is."
2
 
@CatPlusPlus Only if the "throw it all away in one piece" taste of that approach makes sense...
 
It's weird to use raw memory.
 
I mean, you could do it if you wanted to...
 
Xeo
"until C++11: explicit, since C++11: implicit and split"
 
1:26 AM
@Xeo Feb draft of C++11 standard says explicit
 
Xeo
Agh
 
@KerrekSB Ah, ok, so it's just philosophical objections. I was worried there was something that made it not work.
 
Xeo
I misread. :(
Fuck, whyyyyy
 
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: BREAKING NEWS: Array placement-new broken? Read all about it! 8720425 [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq]
 
@RMartinhoFernandes No, it works, but my approach is cheaper
 
1:27 AM
Cheaper?
 
@Xeo What is "implicit and split"?
 
@FredOverflow Nonsense.
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow Nvm me, I misread.
 
:P
@FredOverflow Put a link there. Otherwise we'll be answering questions about the magic number all day.
 
Can I put links in topics?
 
Xeo
1:28 AM
But it would look way nicer than std::vector<std::vector<T>> v(100, std::vector<T>(50)); :(
 
It won't look pretty.
 
Xeo
Well, yes, but they won't be transformed
 
@Xeo How often do you need nested vectors?
 
Worst case put it there raw.
 
@Xeo I'll take that over implicit construction of a vector from my int.
 
1:28 AM
Boost.MultiArray!
 
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: BREAKING NEWS: Array placement-new broken? Read all about it! stackoverflow.com/questions/8720425 [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq]
 
@CatPlusPlus or std::vector<std::array<T,N>> depending on your needs
 
Xeo
lol, you can link
Interesting
You couldn't some time ago
 
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: BREAKING NEWS : Array placement-new broken? Read all about it! stackoverflow.com/questions/8720425 [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq]
Just checkin'.
 
1:29 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes I don't pay the overhead that you have in your array.
 
@CatPlusPlus lol, it becomes bold here but not the topic.
 
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: BREAKING NEWS : Array placement-new broken? Read all about it! stackoverflow.com/q/8720425 [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq]
 
@KerrekSB Ah, damn, I shouldn't have forgotten that after this discussion!
 
Damnit, who put a space before the colon?
 
@KerrekSB: in stackoverflow.com/q/8720425, to what do you say "Undefined Behavior", and we though standard says deallocators shouldn't throw, it doesn't say destructors can't.
 
1:31 AM
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: BREAKING NEWS: Array placement-new broken? Read all about it! stackoverflow.com/q/8720425 [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq]
 
Xeo
The cat
 
@FredOverflow Transcript clearly shows the cat as the culprit.
The French are silly and put spaces around punctuation.
5
 
@RMartinhoFernandes if that's the case, he made a mistake. Bold is not a punctuation mark.
 
Markdown is French?
bold: test
Oh, hey, it works.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Are you saying "Cat Plus Plus" is actually "Chat Pluse Pluse"? That makes so much sense!
 
1:32 AM
I wasn't sure.
 
("chat" is french for "cat".)
 
No, I meant that French would write the start of this sentence as "No , I meant"
 
@CatPlusPlus 3
 
Well, and since Cat Plus Plus put a space before the colon, you exposed him as being a french spy!
 
1:33 AM
@MooingDuck 7
 
@FredOverflow Exactly.
 
@CatPlusPlus I'm counting how many times you moo'd at me
 
@fre
 
Xeo
Fuck french. (Or French fuck, whatever your preferences are.)
 
@IneedHelp what?
 
Xeo
1:34 AM
He's already gone
 
Nice screen name.
@Xeo It's drive-by plinking!
 
All I know about French is "oui". I think it's French.
 
@MooingDuck I think that went a little off-topic, don't worry.
 
@CatPlusPlus Oui.
 
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus All I know is "Je ne parle pas francais." And I don't even know how to correctly spell that.
 
1:35 AM
I was wondering about "que" but that one is probably Spanish.
 
@MooingDuck The standard doesn't forbid destructors from throwing, but can get yourself into UB, or outright termination, very very quickly with a class which has throwing destructors.
 
Xeo
"Que" should be "what"
IIRC
 
@Xeo It's almost perfect. Only using a c instead of a ç!
 
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes So you are actually the french spy!
 
But can you pronounce it?
 
1:36 AM
@KerrekSB Is there UB? I thought it was well defined! (terminates, but defined)
 
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus The question is: Do I want to?
 
@Xeo No, I'm just trained in French to find French spies easily!
 
I remember "Pourquoi pas?", it means "Why not?" :)
 
Sounds plausible.
It's still French?
 
And of course "Qu'est-ce que c'est", which means "What is it?" :)
@CatPlusPlus Yes, I only know German, English and (very little) French.
 
1:37 AM
Also, I have a bunch of French cousins, and ended up learning the language.
 
@MooingDuck Oh, I see what you mean.
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow See, french is violating the DRY principle. They repeat the same letters all over again and again in such a simple sentence!
 
@MooingDuck Let me think about that.
 
@KerrekSB granted, it's still a bad idea, but well defined. MSVC's container destructors will leak everything.
 
@KerrekSB I can see the smoke from here.
 
1:38 AM
I have a feeling that destruction can happen in situations where exceptions are UB, so you'd be in trouble there.
 
@Xeo Well, actually it means "What is that what it is?" which sounds a lot more philosophical than "What is it?" :)
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow It sounds a lot more stupid if you ask me.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Hehe - SO question: can exceptions in a destructor ever cause UB? :-)
 
@KerrekSB is throwing an exception ever UB? I thought it was well defined. CRASH!
 
@FredOverflow "What is it that this is?"
 
1:39 AM
"What is that what that is?", actually.
 
@FredOverflow No, "ce" is "this".
Or not.
Dammit.
 
@KerrekSB If I recall what I read earlier, it might be UB if the exception has no move/copy assignment. or constructor. Or maybe it fails to compile. I don't recall.
 
Any French non-spies here?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Okay, so "What is this what this is?" then. I'm not sure.
 
Xeo
Are you guys actually discussing french in here?!
 
1:40 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes stupid American over here
@Xeo yes, and French spies
 
French++
 
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes French.SE
 
@Xeo I'm not going to register at French Language and Usage to ask what a very common two-letter word ("ce") means.
 
It seems the french make no distinction between this and that?!?
 
@FredOverflow: Let me delete those comments for now until I have a clearer opinion on the matter.
 
1:41 AM
@Xeo well it's not like we'd be discussing C++ here or anything
 
@RMartinhoFernandes What's the question?
 
@FredOverflow Could be. English make no distinction between "that" and "that" (different Portuguese words).
 
@KerrekSB What comments? Are you a french spy?
 
@FredOverflow The UB comments about exceptions
 
9
Q: Array placement-new requires unspecified overhead in the buffer?

Mooing Duck5.3.4 [expr.new] of the C++11 Feb draft gives the example: new(2,f) T[5] results in a call of operator new[](sizeof(T)*5+y,2,f). Here, x and y are non-negative unspecified values representing array allocation overhead; the result of the new-expression will be offset by this amount from ...

 
1:42 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes Well, how do the French program in C++ then? I always use this and that in C++!
 
@KerrekSB What does "ce" mean? "This" or "that"? Or both?
 
@FredOverflow "ceci" and "celà"
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow I use this and other
 
1 min ago, by FredOverflow
It seems the french make no distinction between this and that?!?
 
@FredOverflow I have always used "that->member"
 
Xeo
1:43 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes French.SE
Anyways, afk hunting food
 
@FredOverflow Me too.
 
@KerrekSB cel&agrave;? What is that, a reference definition? :)
 
well, my shift ended an hour ago. I should go home.
I "replied" to RMartinhoFernandes out of habit. :(
 
@KerrekSB Okay, so #define ceci this
 
1:44 AM
@MooingDuck lol
@FredOverflow Hmm, Kerrek is claims to be French but can't type French things on his keyboard.
Maybe Kerrek is actually a Russian spy masquerading as a French spy.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes We should tell facebook about this!!
 
@KerrekSB It seems there is still one comment left.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I never claimed anything :-) In fact, I habitually add disclaimers to all social activity
 
@CaptainGiraffe You mean façebóòkê, right?
 
I usually distance myself from anything I will say, or from opinions that are formed based on what I say
 
1:46 AM
There's a facebook.stackoverflow.com? What? I... What?
 
@FredOverflow Blast. JavaScript is no match for my swift fingers.
 
@KerrekSB You shouldn't have replied to my "Any French non-spies?" question then!
 
@MooingDuck Probably about programming facebook.
 
@FredOverflow oh, so it is. Alright. That makes more sense. Not people asking how to make posts.
 
@MooingDuck They dumped a truckload of money and SO become their official programming support medium.
 
1:47 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes Whoops :-) But you know, in Soviet Russia, country spies for you.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes excellent. Free SO for life!
 
Resistance is futile, we have been assimilated.
 
SO is also an official support medium for Android programming.
 
I just took an android phone with no sim card. Here I am.
 
Ah, 5.3.4/10 adds a special rule about char-arrays
(but not pertinent to our previous discussion)
 
1:51 AM
@KerrekSB Yes, char arrays are magical.
Oh yeah, I was forgetting that too. ::operator new(n) needs to be aligned afterwards?
 
@KerrekSB is that the alignment one? Yeah. Unrelated.
 
I just took an android phone with no sim card, logged into market. Here I am.
 
Ah no, that produces aligned memory as well.
@CaptainGiraffe What's going on?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yeah, I think so. It's essentially the same requirement as for malloc().
 
@RMartinhoFernandes A developer phone, I logged into android market and I can do SO chat from here
 
1:54 AM
I just got a badge for that question: stackoverflow.com/badges/20/nice-question?userid=845092. I feel bad, because it was someone else's question origionally :(
 
I'm getting tired of the snowman.
 
Somewhat off topic, but what's the difference between conditionals and guards?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes fireworks for a month?
@Pubby what they're used for?
 
A guard is a conditional that protects you!
 
Scary if you ask me
 
1:56 AM
But can one do things the other can't?
 
Since a guard is a specific use of a conditional, yes.
If T is int[10] what is T const&?
 
Xeo
lol
> error: cannot bind 'std::ostream' lvalue to 'std::basic_ostream<char>&&'
Seems they don't provide the correct overload for type_info :D
 
2:12 AM
@Xeo You want to print typeid(...).name()
 
Xeo
Argh!
I always forget that stupid .name()
> A10_i
Seems to suggest it's just the same
 
The reference part, is that encoded in there?
I don't want the array to decay.
 
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes The reference part is indeed not encoded!
 
Seems Google nuked Chrome from search. news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57351705-93/…
 
Another off-topic question, what is $ operator called in Haskell?
 
2:16 AM
I just call it function application.
GHC docs call it "Application operator".
 
Ok, I'll go with that. Any idea of a C++ keyword that could stand for "apply"?
 
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes I don't understand the reason
 
@Xeo Some people started adding "Sponsored by Google Chrome" and such on several places with low-quality content. Google did what they do to anyone else trying to cheat search results.
 
Xeo
mhm
 
@Xeo Ah, seems like I'm safe. ideone.com/m7O94
 
Xeo
2:22 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes I now understand what exactly you wanted xD
 
Since there are no const references to arrays, I was worried I might lose it.
Or are there?
 
Xeo
Oh, I didn't know there are no const references to arrays
 
int (const&)[10] looks weird.
 
Xeo
Atleast GCC doesn't compile int (const& rarr)[10] = arr;
 
Xeo
2:25 AM
This is getting weird
 
Ah, it makes arrays of const elements.
Damn, arrays are crazy.
 
Xeo
C-style arrays are crazy
 
And const int[10] counts as a const type.
 
Xeo
brb, restarting router
 
But std::array<const int, 10> doesn't.
 
Xeo
2:32 AM
re
 
Ok, so I get a reference to an array of consts ideone.com/Yi3gL. Sounds good enough.
 
Xeo
Strange stuff, though
std::array > C-style arrays
 
Yeah, it's weird because it changes the type of the elements.
@Xeo I know. But I want my code to work with old arrays too.
Just for perfectionism purposes.
 
2:45 AM
Strange question, but with brace auto-completion, how does { behave?
Does typing {automatically create a new line?
 
With my preferred behaviour, I type the newline.
That is 1) I type { 2) tool types } for me, insertion cursor is in the middle of both braces 3) I type newline 4) tool adds an additional newline to put the brace on and properly indents everything.
 
Is that default behavior?
 
Dunno. I haven't used that many editors/IDEs.
 
Hm, I imagine with the new C++ lambdas a newline would be problematic
 
Yeah, that's an example where I might not want it.
Also, if I type { immediately followed by }, I want the result to be {} not {}}.
Writing an editor?
 
2:56 AM
No, just trying to create a syntax that doesn't clash with C++'s
 
Note to self: if you make an enum of flags, don't use 0 for a flag.
 
3:13 AM
struct B {
    B(std::string const&);
};

struct A {
    A(B const&);
};

// ...
A("hello");  // I wish this would work... :(
I don't understand why the standard imposes a limit on the conversion path length.
 
It's only the number of user-defined conversions.
 
well. that's pretty much all the conversion paths I have control on. so it limits practically any conversion path.
 
It's there to avoid nasty things that could easily happen accidentally.
Like loops.
 
you can still have loops.
 
Or very unintended conversions.
 
3:17 AM
with conversion ctors and conversion operators.
 
@wilhelmtell But only one of them can ever be picked, so there's no problem.
 
struct A {
    A(B const&);
    operator B();
};

struct B {
    B(const A&);
    operator A();
}
 
I guess you could say the shortest path is always picked and solve that.
But some types have templated conversions.
Adding a conversion from A to one of those types could easily become hell.
Especially if then it can convert to another type with templated conversions.
 
I think it's for the a similar reason as the (implementation-specific, but nonetheless) limit on template instantiation depth.
maybe because long paths can explode exponentially in terms of compilation time.
 
and the error messages, when a long conversion chain didn't work out....
 
3:20 AM
well
 
@wilhelmtell But the worse problem is that the user has to consider with an exponential number of paths!
 
not exponetially, but big-oh-square-ily
 
Do you want that burden upon yourself?
If your compiler can handle it, can you?
 
I believe this actually is exponential
 
@BenVoigt I have a gut feeling error messages never kept Standard C++ from making a decision about anything.
 
3:21 AM
I think O(n^n)
maybe just O(n!)
 
O(n^n) = O(n!)
 
true, but the factorial is easier to visualize in connection with this problem
 
@BenVoigt roughly all graph theory problems are O(n2), so I thought ... :-S
except sales-personish ones
which are big-oh-of-no.
 
plenty of NP-complete problems
 
yeah, speaking of this kind of reveals the obvious reason for this limitation.
 
3:24 AM
Wikipedia includes "generating all unrestricted permutations of a poset;" as an example for O(n!). I guess that's what we have here, no?
 
well if you have more than one search path of the same length that matches then you can stop looking, it's an ambiguity.
 
I think there are sum(k=1..n-2) k! paths
which is approximately (n-2)!
 
i mean conversion path. sorry, too much time in front of the unix shell.
quantum machines could solve this. maybe by the next standard.
quite possible
lol
 
I usually shun implicit conversions anyway, so it doesn't affect me much.
 
it's extremely useful
right now i'm looking to minimize the number of functions with it.
 
3:29 AM
It can also be harmful :)
 
context-sensitive expression evaluation always makes things more complicated
 
And they don't participate in type deduction in templates.
 
i think code written is worse than code not written, when the two do the same.
 
But when the code does something you don't want it's even worse.
 
if you feel alright not writing an explicit copy ctor when you don't need, you should be alright with a none-explicit conversion ctor. in both ways just think things through. code not written is bugs not produced.
yes. there are rules for when to write a copy ctor and when not too. same for conversion ctors. they're useful when done right, in eliminating code. a value of the highest magnitude!
:)
 
3:32 AM
I didn't say I never do it. But I do start with explicit as my first choice. I wish the language helped me on this.
 
i should lead an army, i could do it.
come to think of it
maybe if i need a longer conversion path my system is too complex
:-S
@RMartinhoFernandes lol that's true, i agree
 
I don't have a lot of C++ experience, but I've already been bitten a few times by an unintended implicit ctor.
template <typename... Args> foo(Args&&...); is a common offender.
 
having keyword explicit instead of implicit is like shooting with a gun by default, and not shooting only if you're sure you shouldn't.
 
Which is annoying because if I make it template <typename... Args> explicit foo(Args&&...); I can't use list initialization (like { 1, 'a', "blah" }) without saying the type name.
I can't have the compiler preventing void f(foo); f(1); but allowing f({ 1 }); at the same time.
And there's no ambiguity in the second.
 
3:52 AM
Tomalak is now Tomalaka :S
 
Anyone familiar with GLSL here? What the heck are dFdx and dFdy? I know what a partial derivative is, but what do I pass to these functions?
Docs for these two seem very scarce.
 

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