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1:04 PM
I'm really looking forward to your explanation on why you tagged this as C++. — Borgleader 39 secs ago
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes let me ruminate on that
 
Hmm.
English -> Latvian works fine.
Latvian -> anything else seems broken.
 
Damn, I cant find an algo question I just figured a solution to
 
Well, maybe not broken.
It's the detection that is broken.
 
Xeo
1:15 PM
Getting a back massage is so niiiiiice~
 
@Xeo I could go for one of those right about now sigh
if you cant help me then pleaaase dont create trouble for me — Gurkirat Singh 28 secs ago
 
Ell
./FunctionSignature.hpp:40:86: error: expected ')'
            typeid(typename function_traits<FunctionT>::template arg<ArgumentIndices>>)
                                                                                     ^
./FunctionSignature.hpp:40:19: note: to match this '('
            typeid(typename function_traits<FunctionT>::template arg<ArgumentIndices>>)
 
apparently asking why he tagged an android question with C++ for no reason is "creating trouble"
 
Ell
I'm so confused.
 
If you're going to advocate switching on magic type indices, why not advocate some goto at the same time — sehe 12 mins ago
People don't get why they use libraries
 
Xeo
1:25 PM
@Borgleader very comforting and relaxing
 
@sehe Non-trivial-copyness aside, an addressof visitor can go a long way towards what the OP wants.
 
user1804599
@Ell remove that >
 
Ell
@rightføld thank you!
 
Anyone good with unix here?
 
user1804599
Yes.
 
1:29 PM
I have a simple query
 
user1804599
< and > for template arguments is unfortunate.
 
Xeo
@ItachiUchiha Nobody, nowhere.
 
@LucDanton I believe that. I also believe the OP is misguided and doesn't know what he's doing. I mean, in the function write<T> why does he/she even use a size visitor? memcpy(out, reinterpret_cast<char const*>(&v.get<T>()), sizeof(T))... Simple because memcpy really restricts the valid values of T already
 
@Xeo :P :P
 
@sehe Yeah, my reaction is to run away from the OP fast really.
 
1:30 PM
@ItachiUchiha $
 
I’ll leave a comment to join in on the hammering.
 
Anyways, so I have a simple grep command, whose output is stored and then compared to a String. While this runs on my Mac terminal, it fails on the Unix server. Any idea why?
 
@ItachiUchiha Ask on SuperUser?
 
@Borgleader that is my last bet! ;)
 
user1804599
@ItachiUchiha uh, no?
 
user1804599
1:35 PM
"I have a C program and a JavaScript program. One works, one fails. Any idea why?"
 
user1804599
FYI stackoverflow.com/help/how-to-ask applies everywhere, not just on Stack Overflow.
 
My is mind is boggled
 
user1804599
My is mind is blogged
 
what exactly is the point of allowing functions to not return anything (UB)?
 
Ell
1:46 PM
they should have called const_cast cv_cast
 
is this another one of those backwards compatibility things with C?
I can't think of a case where allowing code paths to not return values is useful
 
@LucDanton noted
 
user1804599
@AlexM. PERFORMANCE
 
wat
what kind of performance boost so important could this give
 
'Bricked phone guy': 'do you know how i can check my device rooted or not recovery mode or something because my phone's not workin , should my should be rooted to complete this process beacuse from my side i think i rooted my device'
 
user1804599
1:49 PM
int f() {
    if (g()) {
        return 1;
    } else if (h()) {
        return 2;
    }
}
 
user1804599
Consider this always returns through one of the two return statements.
 
user1804599
Assume the compiler cannot verify that.
 
user1804599
Adding a statement after the fifth curly brace would result in a larger binary.
 
It never gets to them.
 
pretty sure that runs forever
 
user1804599
1:50 PM
FTFY
 
what's the guarantee that it will return through any of those?
 
user1804599
The programmer knows.
 
looks like badly designed code to me
in all ways
 
user1804599
So?
 
there is no further else
you wasted an 'if' ... and the following (h())
 
1:52 PM
what's the binary size impact in real applications?
int f() {
    if (g()) {
        return 1;
    } else if (h()) {
        return 2;
    }
    return somethingelse;
}
 
@AlexM. hehehe. what an argument. Looks like a contrived sample. Yawn.
 
what kind of increase could this cause
 
if(a()?b())return 1:2; // something similar, forgot syntax
 
user1804599
@AlexM. IN THE ORDER OF BYTES
 
@sehe I don't think it's a bad argument at all
also, since rightfold's example has the assumption that at any point either g() or h() MUST be true
his function can be replaced with
if (g) return 1; return 2;
 
user1804599
1:54 PM
@sehe contrived adjective. deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously.
 
user1804599
Nice.
 
which doesn't leave room for code paths not returning values
 
hi ya all
 
and in case of contracts being broken
it's not UB showing it to you
 
@AlexM. You ask for reasons. You get reasons. You refuse to see them because /vacuous argument/. Okay. You win!
 
1:56 PM
I got the reason that the programmer knows that those two paths will return
 
@sehe care to look at some hashing design problem based on N3980?
 
user1804599
No, that's not the reason.
 
and just showed how that statement isn't much of a reason since something like that else if can be turned into an else entirely
 
user1804599
That's an answer to the question why either g() or h() is always true.
 
@rightføld That is not an important performance boost at all.
 
1:57 PM
@TemplateRex Interesting! I have had quite some answers using scoped_allocators since recently. I'm p. happy I finally appear to have grokked them. (Turns out I was assuming they are much more complicated)
 
user1804599
Did I ever say it was?
 
@TemplateRex I'll +1 it for now
 
I just want to see a clear example where not letting all code paths return a value brings such an important benefit that it's a good idea to just throw proper design out the window
 
user1804599
@AlexM. Maybe the return value of the function isn't used if g() isn't called, and g() sometimes returns false.
 
@rightføld Not adding it can, for example, insert ud2 instruction (clang does that sometimes), which results in a "larger binary" (or doesn't, because the next thing may be aligned anyway... vOv).
 
2:00 PM
@sehe help me recall, what was it again what was so interesting about scoped_allocators?
 
@rightføld ok that makes sense
are there any other languages that allow for something like this?
my knowledge is spread among those who shout at you for not returning on all paths
 
user1804599
C.
 
2:28 PM
the lounge died at the mention of C
 
Yeah, stack overflow.
Null pointer.
 
You tagged this with CSS? Really? — Borgleader 9 secs ago
 
user1804599
2:48 PM
This is interesting.
 
Does anybody knows how to get the Chameleon hat?
 
user1804599
Z shell optimises out forks.
 
Noob question : is the default hash for std::unordered_map ok ? Or shall I supply another one (if so, which one ?) I guess it depends on the kind of objects used as a key for the map (in that case an std::string)
 
user1804599
E.g. in (foo && bar) it doesn't fork for bar; it just execs.
 
@karlphillip I dunno, I edited the "about" section of my profile and there it was
 
2:51 PM
@Rerito Thx buddy.
 
@Rerito Depends on the application. E.g. it’s not suitable for network-facing stuff, in case you want to prevent DoSes.
 
@LucDanton Here it is a Trie implementation, where I keep a hashtable of the keys stored in the trie to speed up node lookup by key
 
this woman sure is excited about her cooking
 
(Instead of unwinding the whole string, I just get the reference through the hashtable)
 
she explains things well though, I liked this particular video
haven't seen the others
 
2:57 PM
@Rerito You can certainly reuse std::hash outside of the unordered containers for that purpose, yes.
 
Thanks @LucDanton, I asked just to be sure :)
(And as an excuse to learn something about "storage oriented" hashing)
 
Note that if you’re writing generic code you can do as the Standard does and have typename Key, typename Value, typename Hash = std::hash<Key> so that you can swap out the hash algo in any case, while still leaving a useful default in.
 
So I just have to add the same template parameters as the one used in std::unordered_map, using the same default params. Yes that is a very insightful comment
Should have thought of it ... Thanks again
 
holy shit this woman's videos are GOOD
subscribed
going to watch all of them
and try the recipes at home
 
@AlexM. you're saying "woman" as if it's important. such sexism
 
3:10 PM
Stop trolling.
 
user1804599
an abyxmal troll
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't
 
user1804599
Cool, the hats are SVGs.
 
Ell
Can you specialise a class to be an alias?
 
user1804599
1) You mean a class template.
2) No.
 
Ell
3:12 PM
Like using std::hash<Too> = MyFooHasher;
 
I don’t know what you mean, but probably not.
 
Xeo
@Ell namespace std { template<> class hash<Foo> : ::...::MyFooHasher {}; }
is as short as it gets, I think
 
you could use inheritance tho
which is almost the same thing
yeah, that
I prefer to provide my custom hashing functions directly, where possible. rather than specialising std::hash
 
user1804599
That's what she said.
 
3:24 PM
is it possible to disable all breakpoint hits in VS? So no triggered breakpoints will stop the application? :o can't fins it anywhere and the only question that's here on SO doesn't even have a answer that answers the question
 
...don't run in debug
 
Xeo
^
 
@Gizmo Debug > Disable All Breakpoints.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes will that even disable breakpoints triggered/forced by code?
 
3:27 PM
:/
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes for a moment there I thought you were replying to me
then I realized abyx was also here
not sure anyone would've taken that bait anyway :\
I really need to move out and get a kitchen like hers
it looks awesome
these videos make me envious :(
 
it's on the starboard
at least it was earlier
 
This question appears to be off-topic because it is about finding a file on your computer's hard drive. — Lightness Races in Orbit 6 secs ago
17 hours ago, by Jerry Coffin
For any who care: Dr. Dobbs will cease publication at the end of this year. http://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/farewell-dr-dobbs/240169421
 
@Gizmo You disable breakpoints triggered by code by changing the code.
 
@Gizmo Just fix the bugs.
 
user1804599
3:44 PM
Run the code through a debugger that immediately continues when it encounters a breakpoint.
 
3:57 PM
apparently the woman on that channel is way more famous than it seemed at first
Jenny Jones (born Janina Stronski; June 7, 1946) is a Canadian American stand-up comedian and talk show host. She hosted The Jenny Jones Show from 1991 to 2003. == Life and career == Jones was born Janina Stronski in Jerusalem. She moved with her family to Italy, and to Canada in 1948. Her parents were Polish immigrants, Zosia "Sophie", a seamstress and dressmaker, and John Stroński, a Polish army officer who was with the British Armed Forces at the time of Jones' birth. Jones grew up in London, Ontario, in a strict Catholic household. Her parents ran a bridal shop in Canada. Jones started her...
that's a nice way to end your talk show career
host a cooking website and channel
 
the guy really doesnt want to do his homework
 
why do you keep going through their homework questions?
it looks like a waste of time to me :(
 
Quick question, are draft answers stored "across" multiple clients ?
 
@AlexM. They must be nuked.
 
I guess
I need to look into cooking videos from other parts of the world, I wonder if other cooks are so concentrated on low fat things
so far in all of these recipes I've seen things being used like "low fat cheese" "low fat milk"
salami being microwaved to reduce the fat (??)
 
4:04 PM
@AlexM. Argh the horror
 
yeah that's kinda exaggerated imo too
and it just ruins a perfect salami
but hey, to each his own
 
user1804599
4:19 PM
-6
A: Opened up a USB stick and it looks a bit odd

celeron533100% fake USB memory stick. A good toy for kids.

 
user1804599
lol
 
4:44 PM
// are these two statements equivalent?
// (I think they are, but I want to double check)
T t2 = std::move(t);
auto t2 = std::move(t);
 
@Rerito are the scrambled eggs in your country really looking like this? cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/…
 
@StackedCrooked they are. auto has decayed type
 
ok
thanks
 
first time I see scrambled eggs look more like a cream
 
@AlexM. Nope :O
 
4:47 PM
weird, everyone advertises that as "traditional French scrambled eggs"
in Transylvania we prepare scrambled eggs like this: tastesofcluj.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/omleta-1.jpg
 
Dunno I always made them like this : temps-de-cuisson.info/files/2010/08/oeuf-brouille.jpg
 
I also add cheese
 
Gotta commute back home
 
@Rerito that looks good
I don't particularly enjoy looking at the first pic I posted
here's them being done and advertised as French style: youtube.com/watch?v=s9r-CxnCXkg
dang now I want to eat eggs
 
I don't enjoy eggs that much.
 
4:53 PM
Should I order Pizza?
 
I find the Japanese omelette to be the most interesting
it looks like it was tailor made for eating with chopsticks
like most of their food I'd guess
 
I've just been contacted through SO by a recruiter named Nick Minaj.
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked depends on T
 
Hmm, need terminology help please. Need wording for "the current state of the state machine" that does not repeat the word "state".
Or I could just ask on Programmers and get rep
 
user1804599
If T is a reference type then they aren't equivalent.
 
5:05 PM
0
Q: What is a good word for the current "state" of a state machine?

Lightness Races in OrbitMy computer program has a state machine inside it, and I am currently documenting a database table that, among other things, reports the state of that program. I am looking for wording that is equivalent to the following: Represents the current state of the state machine but that does not ...

There we go
 
inb4 downvotes
 
user1804599
I'd just use "current state."
 
ahahaha, called it
I have no idea what's wrong with the question but it felt wrong
 
Why not just "the machine's current state"?
 
user1804599
Hey wait why is Tomalak not plonked.
 
5:06 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I used to not care about nicki minaj until they made a version that appeals to me youtube.com/watch?v=6VxV717PRBU
 
@rightføld Because I haven't done anything to warrant it, probably
@E_net4 Yeah I used that in a few places where the idea that "the machine" means "the state machine" was already introduced.
@AlexM. :(
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Well, you've got your work-around: introducing the state machine some distance before mentioning its current state. But I honestly am curious about the answers that may arise to that.
Do other scientific papers worry about repeating the word?
 
no idea
this is database documentation though not a scientific paper
 
Ok, so: A = "face n (of {1, ..., 6}) of a rolled dice", B = "number of heads by flipping n different and independent coins". Are the two events independent?
 
stuck with this in the end
> The \texttt{Status} column is only valid for rows in which \texttt{Pending} is \texttt{0}, and indicates the current state of the state machine. This information is used to give feedback to users via the GUI.
and yes I know that design is a bit shit
 
5:11 PM
Why is it so hard. I feel like they are not independent, but they also kinda seem independent.
 
@Jefffrey erm
 
ew I duplicated "use", too
 
Why would they not be independent
 
I think so since they don't depend on anything the other uses or changes
 
> The \texttt{Status} column is only valid for rows in which \texttt{Pending} is \texttt{0}, and indicates the current state of the state machine. This information is stored in order to give feedback to users via the GUI.
better
 
5:12 PM
@CatPlusPlus Because B depends on the result of A
 
but don't take my words for granted
I was the only guy in my college who failed the statistics + probability exam
 
Oh, same n
 
@Jefffrey is it the same n?
 
@Jefffrey Are those both events? They don't both look like events.
 
@AlexM. yeah
 
5:13 PM
then you can't do B unless you do A first
but I get what you want to say
 
So, I went with "they are independent", and there was this question: Calculate P(B = n | A = 0) (that is, what is the probability that I get a specific face given that I got 0 heads). And I was like .... waaaat
 
you can choose n and do both at the same time
 
Seems too easy
 
but then A would not depend on any sort of probability
 
@AlexM. +1 now, sucker
 
5:15 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit pfeh, beginner's luck
 
I mean, the fact that you got 0 heads seems totally irrelevant to what is the probability that the dice got a specific face.
Also P(B = n | A = 0) in itself really doesn't seem to make sense
 
@AlexM. Or you can pick n and find a probability that you get this exact face
 
@Jefffrey getting 0 heads?
welcome to my life
ba dum tschhh
 
Zeroface
 
so what do you guys think?
inb4 "I think I don't care"
 
user1804599
5:19 PM
@Jefffrey 50%
 
nah I do care but I don't know how to help you
I don't know how these things work :(
 
I've never been good at statistics or probability
Ask Robot
 
Seems like a lounge trait.
 
I should drop college before having to retake the statistics exam if I want to drop it
I need to think about this
 
user1804599
If you just got tails a thousand times then the probability the next one is heads is 50%.
 
5:20 PM
That's not the same thing
 
user1804599
The probability that you get tails a thousand times followed by heads is lower.
 
Well going from B to A, then probability is 1/6 if it's a perfect dice probably
 
user1804599
Oh I thought coin flip.
 
ikr
that's what I wrote in the test
 
5:21 PM
P(B = n | A = 0) = P(B = n) = 1/6
but it seems way too easy
literally a kid could do it
 
@Jefffrey That sums up most of college anyway.
 
user1804599
Past outcomes are irrelevant to the next outcome.
 
@Jefffrey HEY
I heard that
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey They need to reach a certain success rate. They can't make it too hard.
 
user1804599
5:23 PM
They could but that would require better teaching which is more effort.
 
user1804599
Lowering the bar is less effort so that's what they do.
 
lol
2 guys from the exam stormed in extremely pissed off
"How did it go" -- "Terrible"
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes @GuruAdrian @Rerito pastebin.com/v9kbq5J2 (sorry, wall of text, so I put it on pastebin instead of spamming here) :)
7
 
user1804599
Tout est terrible.
 
user1804599
5:31 PM
@MarcoA. That's what she said.
 
Never mind.
 
@Jefffrey hahaha, I realize this guy is just trying to act according to stereotypes for the audience but damn youtube.com/watch?v=1-SJGQ2HLp8
he's funny, I like him
I mean I hope he's trying to act according to stereotypes
I couldn't imagine a country with cooks so excited
it'd explode
 
user1804599
Calling a cook "Jamie Oliver" is like calling a C++ programmer "Jaimie Templater".
 
I'd olive you <3
 
@jalf very well said.
 
user1804599
5:48 PM
@AlexM. outlive
 
gotta love the comments on all Italian recipe videos that are made by random people lol
there's always at least one person going like
> Ok, I'm italian and I have to say that this is absolutely NOT the right way to cook the pasta. Holy crap! Olive oil in the water?! Why?! You don't need that! Absolutely! And it's better to add the salt after the water started to boil.
I'm sorry, but this is absolutely wrong. Did you ever come to Italy to learn how to properly cook pasta?
I can't see this :\
this one was taken from here youtube.com/watch?v=UYhKDweME3A
 
user1804599
Pasta is disgusting no matter who made it and how it was made.
 
food should be considered to be more flexible by everyone imo
experimentation should be welcome everywhere at any times
 
@jalf where is TL;DR ?
 
this "THIS IS NOT HOW YOU DO IT" reaction to people adapting recipes is meh
 
5:53 PM
lol food nerds
 
user1804599
> You can fold most block (/* ... */) comments to a single line. You can't do that inside code blocks (method bodies, static blocks, etc.) and maybe a few other places.
 
user1804599
lol Eclipse
 
@AlexM. lol
 
user1804599
path_resolution(7) is nice.
 
Ell
When initializing unique_ptrs in class member initialiser lists, what is the recommended best practise?
my_ptr(std::make_unique<MyType>(...))? or my_ptr(new MyType(...))?
 
6:08 PM
why didn't C++11 introduce a "threadsafe" keyword instead of changing the intended meaning of const? the notion that const means threadsafe seems useless when trying to introduce safe multithreading to a large code base where there are hundreds of thousands of lines of code in const functions that are not threadsafe
 
Ell
@JDiMatteo you sound very mislead
 
@JDiMatteo What would such keyword do?
Documentation? You already (should) have one.
 
milleniumbug: it would help me keep track of which functions I have made threadsafe already, and help other programmers know which functions need to be threadsafe, and help us lean on the compiler to know when we have called a function not labeled threadsafe from a threadsafe function... similar to how the const keyword is more effective than just documenting a function as const
I guess it wouldn't be so simple, since threadsafety depends on the context
but still the new meaning of const seems useless for large legacy code bases
 
@JDiMatteo So you mean the compiler would actually enforce it. I don't know how it would be possible, but I haven't touched concurrency yet.
 
@JDiMatteo because it would be meaningless
 
6:13 PM
@JDiMatteo I don't see why? Do your const-methods modify state?
 
@JDiMatteo The meaning of const isn't redefined everywhere. It's only the convention for the standard library (yet).
 
@bamboon they don't need to modify state to not be thread safe, caching can mean data is dead before you enter the method
 
bamboon, yes of course any large legacy codebase not built originally for multithreading will have const functions modifying state. there will be mutables, and then there are pointer class members which can happily have their state modified in const objects since the pointer value isn't changing (same goes for references).
are there any books or articles addressing how to effectively add multithreading to large legacy code base with lots of thread-safety traps? perhaps the old code should be caged and just write the threadsafe stuff from scratch in a new process? (there is some term for caging legacy code, right?)
 
@JDiMatteo Anti corruption layer
 
@Mgetz Could you be more precise? I don't understand where you are going. You mean statics or something else?
 
Ell
6:25 PM
glfw is bad:(
 
@bamboon processors have different caches, if the data is dead in one cache and live in another you can still have issues because the processor might still be writing it out to ram. You get around this by having a full fence, the problem is that is VERY expensive.
the lock prefix on x86 causes a full fence for example
 
some Anti-corruption text I was reading says "you arrange dependency management in such a way that trying to access Messy [in my case the legacy potentially thread unsafe code] fails to compile". is that accomplished by some trick like making the "corrupt" codes's headers awkward so they can't accidently be used, so only the layer can easily access them from the new non-corrupt code? (programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/184464/…)
 
@JDiMatteo that's the idea, the long term goal is to remove the bad code
 
@rightføld my pasta is disgusting, but I suppose I shouldn't wait 3 hours while it's cooking
 
Megtz: have you heard of anti-corruption layer working on huge legacy code bases? it seems like it is basically asking for a rewrite or at least a thorough code review... I guess that is necessary though... the old code isn't necessarily bad, it just isn't threadsafe. I guess if I make the new code easy to reach from the old code, but the old code impossible to accidentally reach from the new code, then they can both live on without costly total rewrite/review
 
6:33 PM
@JDiMatteo that's what they are intended for. Basically you have a new architecture and old architecture. The anti corruption layer sits in between.
 
I guess the anti-corruption layer could just gets a lock on a "legacy" mutex each time the legacy code is called (or spawns a new process if need to call legacy stuff concurrently)
 
@JDiMatteo ideally you want to cut off the bad code as soon as possible. Don't allow people to get complacent
 
Mgetz: I don't think that is reasonable to expect with a large legacy code base. A large code base written over a decade or more can't just be rewritten. and the new code doesn't seem like it would necessarily be "better" either. the legacy code isn't "bad", it just isn't thread-safe. isn't the temptation to do a total rewrite addressed in the mythical man month?
 
@JDiMatteo The question then is whether these methods should have been const in the first place.
 
> Fear & Loathing
delete your own answer
easiest hat to get
 
6:43 PM
@JDiMatteo I beg to differ
 
@Mgetz I've worked at a few large companies, and I've never seen a large legacy code base successfully rewritten. at best the legacy code is mostly hidden. I guess it must have been done effectively in some cases though, e.g. I hear that the transportation industry rewrote huge legacy fortran code bases into C++.
 
@JDiMatteo didn't say rewritten, but slowly removed
 
@Mgetz That implies rewriting their functionality.
 
@Griwes worked fine for Office
note: windows doesn't count.. NT was parallel development
 
6:50 PM
@Mgetz what happens next year when some new bright guy decides that last year's new code is now corrupt/bad... this seems like endless work. it seems like having categories of code with different policies/standards without (significant) circular dependencies is sufficient
 
@JDiMatteo welcome to iterative development
I'm not going to continue humoring you
 
@Mgetz Office is at the advantage over the vast majority of big pieces of software: they didn't have a set of customers that had fixed requirements for now "obsolete" features.
 
you don't seem to see the value
@Griwes hahaha bullshit
you haven't met oil and gas
 
Yeah, right, call facts bullshit.
I was about to humor you with a story from my company, but meh.
 
There are oil companies that depend on very legacy formats and functions in excel
 
6:53 PM
Not worth it.
 
@Mgetz ok, thanks for the discussion, I think I got some value from it, I'll think about it some more
 
@Mgetz They don't need Excel 2013 or 365 for that. vOv
 
@Griwes actually if you watch the cppcon video on that... they do
and use it
and IPad
etc
 
Yeah, no, they don't.
Also supporting older formats is a functionality that requires pretty much no work on. duh.
 
again I beg to differ, MS broke the binary format several times. furthermore their original codebase assumes little endian
 
6:56 PM
Who cares. If reading/writing the files is the majority of what excel does, then it's done wronger than I thought.
chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/20516583#20516583 <- this is probably the crucial message here
 

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