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12:03 AM
@Christo sorry for the lack of response, I was away from the chat for a bit
@ChristophRüegg that sounds totally reasonable.
 
@ChristophRüegg That's something we should do - but right now, F# SF isn't a real entity
there's a group working on changing that, but until that happens,it likely can't (or shouldn't) be listed
 
12:21 AM
@ReedCopsey ah, right. No problem, it can wait.
 
@ChristophRüegg It's definitely a good idea to have it on there - there are actually a few others that would be beneficial, too, once it has proper status
 
@ReedCopsey I assume this is a matter of the comm group?
 
@ChristophRüegg Registration and such is probably more a matter of the leadership team vs. a working group - but it'd be discussed once things were at a point where it's ready, I'm sure
 
@ReedCopsey great
 
 
1 hour later…
1:37 AM
any ideas, VS 2013 crashes on intelisense... when I type System. VS crashes on the .
 
2:25 AM
Hey guys
Saw the conversation about SO chat vs. IRC vs. Some custom implementation on fsharp.org
Reed: the ircbrowse.net site is written in haskell, its not "mature" yet. But you can move in the past by supplying the date in the URL. For example, yesterday would be ircbrowse.net/day/fsharp/2014/07/29
Reed: there was also a github project run a while back, just a daily cron of IRC logs for the fsharp channel... The freenode channel has been est. since 2007
If you want to get a good experience from IRC, I'd suggest not using a web client (especially the java applet), even the freenode webclient I pr'd into the fsharpfoundation a few months back
best to use something like irssi, or if you don't like command lines and text streams, there is xchat... or if you're on windows there is mIRC
I think there are many people who prefer IRC over something like this SO chat (there are 77 users there for the most part), mainly because IRC has a strong *nix tradition... it fits into a *nix users environment well. In the case of freenode, open source projects are kind of expected to have a presence there... it is very OSS community-oriented.
I for one don't see a problem with many places to chat about F#, it increases exposure. I think if anyone wanted to unify community chat, it would be difficult... People have preferences and environments that work best for them... as evidenced by the survey
 
 
4 hours later…
6:13 AM
#FSharp single place to chat results after 1 day. 25 respondents. 17 interested. 8 not. IRC still strong among community. We can do better I am sure. IRC still seems like WOT and in my view creates barriers to entry for newcomers. I don't mind IRC, but we could do far more.
 
6:49 AM
@AshtonKJ where do I find the IRC channel? I have not used IRC for more than 10 yrs
 
@weismat Let me find the details for you. I know it is on FreeNode.
@weismat ##fsharp
@weismat irc.freenode.org on the ##fsharp channel
I also haven't used IRC in years. I prefer richer interaction
 
ok - any client recommendation - remember using Mirc those days
 
There is a webchat. Not the biggest fan of it though
 
Mirc seems still be very popular
 
Haven't found an IRC client that I like in a while. IRC still feels like a Wall of Text :(
 
6:52 AM
it has definetly a "telnet" kind of feeling
 
Maybe I am just spoiled these days, but things like SO Chat are much better.
I can link directly to a message. I can paste formatted code.
I expect better than IRC
 
I have programmed mainframes and character based GUIs long time ago, so I can take it
 
Good morning. Do we have veredict for "multiple chat issue"?
 
@jruizaranguren no firm verdict yet. Currently there from the back of the napkin survey there is a 2/3 majority that want something better than IRC. But there are still some justifiable IRC stalwarts. I don't think any solution will make everyone happy. My view is that we can lower the barrier to entry if we make it more accessible.
But that is just my opinion. I don't speak for the community as a whole. People are free to agree or disagree as they think fit. I am going to spike an idea, then leave it to the majority to choose.
 
on IRC there a lot more people - but I agree ux is very limited
 
7:01 AM
I think it is absurd to have a never-ending discussion about the best technological way to do it. The mean does not matter at all. Building F# community does. I can use a system that I don't like :-)
 
@jruizaranguren I agree. Has this been a never ending discussion?
 
No, I didn't want to say that
I would just take a pragmatic approach: Who is the smaller group? Can they admit to change where the big group live? Ok? Do it.
 
@jruizaranguren for me it isn't about the size that currently exists. But the size that could.
 
Once there is a single group, let's start a discussion that if changing the system would achieve growing the community
 
@jruizaranguren the problems is that the community is too fractured to even get a single discussion going :P Thats one of the things that sparked my interest in this idea.
 
7:07 AM
So currently the IRC group is more active?
 
@jruizaranguren it is apparently active. Never when I am there though. It seems more to be active in the US time zones.
Which makes me sad :( I like the SO chats because it makes it easy to catch up
Chat is essentially async, but IRC feels very time based.
Maybe that is just a personal view.
 
IRC is not really async - it is just fun when it is lively
 
Either way it has sparked enough interest for me to feel that starting an experiment is worth my while. Maybe nothing will come of it, but I would have learned something in the process.
 
IRC ist just fun at the moment with David Thomas and some other chap having a very fundamental discussion
 
7:26 AM
@weismat Thats cool :) I just wish it was easier to track
Spoiled developer is spoiled :P
 
it is not dave thomas, but daniel jackson - sorry for the confusion
 
No problems.
 
have forgotten that one can do a whois on IRC
 
Hehe. Dave Thomas would be 7sharp92 I think
I haven't been on the channel in a while
 
7:53 AM
Did you get the notification on entry to work?
 
@JohanLarsson I haven't had a chance to look at it yet. Will check it out when I get home today.
 
Ok, I have never missed that feature but then again I was never used to it in the first place
 
@JohanLarsson it's a hangover from my irc days
 
I know right. Here is me criticizing IRC and yet missing some of the IRC features.
 
7:58 AM
Is it possible to define a Map <string, any func> ?
 
Is it wrong that I still prefer to have my web projects as C# projects. (The tooling is VS is still not there for pure F# web projects)
@jruizaranguren can you explain what you want to do with it?
 
All my questions are related to the same thing, function composition through declarative maps
2
Q: Specify function composition through declarative maps in F#

jruizarangurenThe Clojure Prismatic/Plumbing library can be used in order to provide a declarative and explicit definition of an application or module functions' graph. In short, it provides a means to specify each function as a node with a label, which is also the output label, the labeled inputs, and an imp...

For instance, find a Node in the tree of functions, and perform the calculations in the subtree rooted at that node
 
@jruizaranguren ok. I am going to have to read your question very slowly. I haven't used clojure before so I am not really familiar with how it works. I am still getting the hang of F# too
@jruizaranguren you use too many big words for me :P
As Scott W said in his one talk. I am a bear of little brain
 
@JohanLarsson Haskell programs are lazy :P
 
8:04 AM
@AshtonKJ I also don't have a big brain. If I did I could explain things in a simple manner :-)
 
@jruizaranguren I think if you can explain it well enough to ask the question, that means that you are doing well.
@jruizaranguren do you have a sample of how the code would work in clojure?
 
(def stats-graph
"A graph specifying the same computation as 'stats'"
{:n (p/fnk [xs] (count xs))
:m (p/fnk [xs n] (/ (p/sum identity xs) n))
:m2 (p/fnk [xs n] (/ (p/sum #(* % %) xs) n))
:v (p/fnk [m m2] (- m2 (* m m)))})
:n, :m, :m2, :v being nodes (and output label of the function)
 
@jruizaranguren what do you mean by output label? (sorry, clojure is greek to me)
 
:n is the label of the function.
 
Given the stats-graph, how would it be called?
 
8:11 AM
It is "compiled" so a single function is created which takes a map and returns a map.
The steps are explained here quite clear: github.com/Prismatic/plumbing/blob/master/test/plumbing/…
 
It looks like the kind of thing code quotations would be used for. But I haven't played with those enough to say for 100%
 
Yeah, I'm investigating that.
Anyway I was trying to reduce the "reflection" surface. That's why ask for a Map <string, any func>
 
It is possible
I mean a simple Map<string, fun> is possible.
But it might not be as transparent as it is in clojure. I can check though
 
How do I create such a Map?
 
I am slapping together a quick sample
 
8:48 AM
Hmmm, not as easy as I thought.
Still working on it
 
Maybe this goes a bit in the direction of recalled, see github.com/VesaKarvonen/Recalled ?
 
Can typeproviders be used to write xml? Random question without use case.
 
@jruizaranguren I'll have to get back to you on this. I need to help out my trainee for a while
 
@weismat ty, gonna play with it
 
9:06 AM
@JohanLarsson you are welcome - I am waiting for xsd support in the main branch to start using the TP
 
@weismat me too.
 
9:26 AM
@ChristophRüegg recalled has some commonalities with the features I want to develop. I planned to use computation expressions for all side effects (monitoring) so thanks, this is a good source to take inspiration.
But it does not solve my main struggle with F#, the "dynamic" model I want to build.
 
9:48 AM
No edit & continue for F#?
hi @Matt!
 
morning
 
So, F# is pretty cool, although I admit I haven't used it for a year. Anyone here building anything "production ready" with it atm?
 
I think Reed is moving his stuff from C# > F#
@BenjaminGruenbaum Maybe F* is interesting for you. Still pretty early I think.
 
interesting
 
 
1 hour later…
11:10 AM
Where is the rename command? I have power tools.
 
you mean like a permanent marker?
 
@JohanLarsson what do you want to rename?
 
Renaming a function for example
 
ctrl + R does nothing for me, checking it out. Ty sir.
 
11:26 AM
it is twice ctrl+r
 
ok, found it in the refactor menu now, is grayed out. Can be cos my code is so broken right now :)
 
@JohanLarsson otherwise just try it using the F# tutorial project
 
Are nested functions only visible inside the containing function? (Makes sense if the visibility is like that)
 
yes - you could declare them as public though with a
Accessibility Annotation
 
11:42 AM
that is antipattern right?
 
from my pov yes
 
Yeah, sounds pretty dumb. I can expose it temporarily for playing around with it from [<Fact>]
 
12:40 PM
Does F# have open source tooling or is it VS-only?
 
MonoDevelop?
 
Emacs? :)
 
@jruizaranguren Have you used it?
 
Starting with a new language is so painful, more of getting feet hurt than wet so far :)
 
12:47 PM
for the emacs bindings
 
I asked for @Roel, he thanks you :)
 
1:14 PM
I'm up to level 27 of the game about squares. it's a tricky bugger
 
nice :)
No project folders in F#?
No project resources?
 
you can create those by manually editing .fsproj :)
a pain, admittedly
 
ouch, that goes for both folders & resources?
Adding sample data to a test project
 
I guess we can't have nested types. not a complaint at this point, haven't seen how that pans out. just an observation
@JohanLarsson not sure about resources, but yes on folders
 
qualityoflife--
 
1:20 PM
well, when you start finding it far simpler to put multiple types into a single file, and more productive, it starts to matter less and less
when an 'area' or 'project' amount of code fits in a single file neatly, it doesn't matter as much
that's my belief thus far. not that I've gone far enough into the rabbit hole to say it's a truism
 
yea I'm gonna try to do it the F# way and not start to dumb things before I have evaluated it
Just felt clean to place testdata in a separate folder
 
well, I'd normally be putting testData and tests in a distinct project, unless you are already in a test project
in C#
 
yes it is a separate testproject
 
ah
 
@MattEllen abandoned elu?
 
1:24 PM
every bug turns into a feature after a while :) nested types would be useful in presence of generics. to hyper-parametrerize everything by 'T..
 
so far, I've been doing Test Methods in a file per concept, and test specifics in a TestHarness file
 
@JohanLarsson only the main chat, for the time being. feels unpleasant in there.
 
Here's a fun little F# script for generating some code for webforms(gag) fssnip.net/nz
 
1:49 PM
@MattEllen Invite me to a secret mod room if you have time, I have a hunch but am also a bit curious about what it is. Most subtleties fly well above my head cos engrish
 
@JohanLarsson if working on VS, you can add project folders if you install Visual F# Power Tools.
 
do the powertools now work in Express editions of VS? last time I tried, they did not
 
@AshtonKJ hmm I have power tools, tried to drag-drop a folder into the proj but it got a wrongy icon. Also tried project add the C# way but there was no folder option.
 
should try again i guess :)
 
@JohanLarsson you can't just drag and drop. You have to right click, select VS power tools, then Add Folder (i think).
 
1:54 PM
I tried that but had no folder option
 
Are you running the latest F# Power Tools? If so, have you enabled folder organization under the F# Power Tools Visual Studio options screen?
 
nope, that sounds right ty :)
@toyvo I think express has a limitation
 
ugh, that's rough
 
@Roel VS Express is an alternative
 
@toyvo I hear xamarin has pretty good success with F# these days
 
1:59 PM
i tried it on Mono/Linux and OSX it was not bad
but i'm mostly happy with Win+Express so far
 
@toyvo Xamarin has quite a lively support base even on Win
Personally I prefer VS though
At least work pays for VS
 
all IDE's are terrible. i haven't found a single one that would just do all my work for me and let me have fun and drink coffee and watch it do it :)
 
@JohanLarsson oh, it's nothing secret, just the bruhahaha between kit and robusto, and how people talk to each other sometimes. normally it doesn't bother me, but I'm feeling delicate this week
 
Am I missing something?
 
@MattEllen Invite me and rob to a room and then just lurk or leave us?
 
2:03 PM
@JohanLarsson what for?
 
@AshtonKJ nah, about another chat. You can move our messages to the bin (you are an owner of this room)
@MattEllen I'm gonna break him :D
 
@JohanLarsson how did you do that markup/tag?
 
[tag:tagtext]
 
ok thanks
 
2:04 PM
@JohanLarsson lol. nah, I think things will settle down better if things are left alone. :D
 
@Maslow I posted ^^ to be pinned/starred for newcomers. Star the original message as it reads better.
 
testing sarcasm sarcasm
neat, so we don't have to hold up a sarcasm sign!
 
I overuse smileys like a teen to offset irony etc.
 
irony, that's the opposite of wrinkly
 
@JohanLarsson yep. Emoticons are sometimes the only way to get someone to realise you aren't being mean
Text isn't always so good at conveying emotions
 
2:08 PM
I hate myself when writing them someties but still think the alternative can be worse
 
well supposedly, not sure how much I believe it now-a-days ** >80% of your communication is non-verbal**
 
Ok, guys why is the tips & tricks message not starred/pinned?
 
can't get that to italicize
 
*oblique text * // no trailing whitespace
 
yeah I did that, I guess spaces or > or % messes it up
 
2:09 PM
leading whitespace
 
nope, I had no leading the first time
testing italics with > 80%
 
>80% of people are human
 
hmm.. maybe I did have a leading whitespace
 
@JohanLarsson better?
 
@AshtonKJ what does it take to get into the owner's box? =)
 
2:11 PM
@AshtonKJ not perfect, pin the original message as the link reads better. Unpin the current one.
 
@JohanLarsson link?
 
where do I see pinned messages?
 
@Maslow good question. I am not sure what I did.
 
@JohanLarsson better now?
 
2:13 PM
@Maslow I have a feeling you are on your way :)
@AshtonKJ Perfect! (Maybe pin is better as it stays on top for two weeks)
 
@JohanLarsson glad I could help
 
this chat room is amazing, wish I could have one for my very own for say code collaboration or discussing sidework
 
I have spent an unhealthy amount of time in chats
 
@Maslow you can create your own (public) room as far as I know
 
2:14 PM
@Maslow you can create your own rooms, not private though
 
it's only unhealthy if you are at the computer while you are in it, sometimes I'm in it while sitting at a red light =)
@MattEllen @JohanLarsson yeah but would like private for discussing startup/sidework private code issues/plans
 
@Maslow Only mods can create private rooms afaik. They are not meant for that though.
 
right, I'm saying I wish I had the code to do so =)
 
@Maslow give it time. If I can get a decent chat system going on FSharp.org then maybe ...
 
@AshtonKJ if it would be like this but private-able then I should have changed my poll answers
 
2:17 PM
@Maslow I am starting on a prototype. We'll see what direction it takes. But I like quite a few of these features, with some IRC type features thrown in (private rooms, no rep needed to talk, etc).
 
no rep needed to talk could bite you, with spambots eh?
 
One of the things I want to do is also integrate FSharp.Formatting, so you get code tooltips (like on Tomas Petricek's blog).
@Maslow yes. That could be a problem. But we can always burn that bridge when we get there
 
well dangit, I can't seem to find the really interesting article I thought it was about how stackoverflow deals with griefers/spammers/unhelpful users I guess I'll just link the podcast blog.stackoverflow.com/2008/08/podcast-17 I thought there was a text article about it
 
@Maslow thanks. I'll give it a listen
 
2:29 PM
@Maslow thanks. Added to the reading list
 
2:40 PM
let answer = None
 
Does the terseness of F# offset the cognitive load from stuff like |> >> etc? An F# program can hardly be said to read like English for a non programmer?
 
well, I don't try to pass off the >> to a non-programmer
|> in limited cases
 
Johan: You can have the same debate with many language features - not just F#
type inference is another one
 
@IsaacAbraham indeed
yeah I get into var debates in C# plenty
 
I would argue that F# reads more like F# for a non programmer than many languages
 
2:42 PM
eh?
@IsaacAbraham curiously recurring template pattern in language
 
there are many nice DSLs that have been written in F# e.g. canopy
 
canopy is awesome
 
gist.github.com/t0yv0/0efa00489a0b9b032d48 - silly stuff, continuation monad with callcc/throw matching the signatures from the CML/SML reports I'm translating namely val callcc : (Cont<'T> -> Job<'T>) -> Job<'T> and val throw: Cont<'T> -> 'T -> Job<'X> - unfortunately since continuations are not native in F# there's a Job layer (same thing as async)
 
@IsaacAbraham true also a matter of style probably
 
sorry... F# reads more like english
than many programming languages
 
2:45 PM
@IsaacAbraham ok that makes sense
 
sorry
:-)
 
I think when it comes to type defs and some limited behaviors, F# reads more like english by far
I've already shown some requirements 'docs' written in F# to non devs at work, and they seems to get it just fine
 
Records reads pretty good these are equivalent right?
 
don't know about English.. F#/ML is designed to read like math :) shines working with algebraic structures
 
^ valid point C# can really get in the way when trying to express math stuff
 
2:47 PM
math is more of a universal language than english
by far
 
@Maslow just more formalized
 
hey maths, y so serious?
 
well, I mean in ANY language isn't + still + or do they use something else?
 
Do you ever use greek letters as variable names? (speaking of math)
 
2:49 PM
dog = perro, but +,-, etc... all constant
nope, but that's symbols, which while they can convey meaning represent a proper noun in a since like any other part of a coding language
the names you use do matter
but I'd argue that more of it would be constant in math 'syntax' than english
 
I don't use Greek or Cyrillic in my equations.
Because they're too difficult to type and tend to distract the reader.
 
yeah writing stuff with greek is probably not much fun but reading can perhaps be nicer
 
and unless there's a convention for a particular value that fit into your industry you aren't violating the maths syntax
like typing pie instead of pi or the pi symbol, it's still valid math lingo
 
Many (most?) math formulas are in greek in books
 
they took the lorem ipsum way out perhaps? in an attempt to not tie things to specific letters
just maybe.
 
2:52 PM
So consensus is that greek is a dumb idea.
 
No it's not dumb.
 
@JohanLarsson in this room? or in general
 
here have a random star
 
greek would be fine if environments were standard on how to edit it. right now it's too much a pain :) unless you have one of those APL keyboards
 
@Maslow When writing mathy stuff in F# say local variables etc.
 
2:53 PM
I'd like to be able to type and store some industry standard symbols, yes.
Delta is a common unavoidable.
 
well yeah I'd think, unless you are in fact using a well known math formula among peers that should recognize it
@JeroldHaas you can do that with F# `` this is a valid identifier ``
 
No, I'm not giving up my ergo for a square APL.
 
let `` look at me I'm a long variable name `` = "foo"
 
I'd rather have the IDE interpret {delta} and convert to unicode @Maslow
 
@Maslow that is insanely nice for tests
 
2:54 PM
@Maslow that works really well with TickSpeck
*TickSpec
 
@AshtonKJ ticks? haven't heard of it
 
let [<Given>] ``I have (.*) black jumpers left in stock`` (n:int) =
    stockItem <- { stockItem with Count = n }
 
I still haven't checked out fsYacc fsSpec, etc.. I'd really like to check out whichever one it is that does property tests for you
 
hey
has anyone suggested semantic code edits already?
if not I am suggesting them
all the {alfa} problems disappear.
 
@BartekBanachewicz semantic code edits?
 
2:56 PM
what does it mean? Aliases?
 
@Maslow imagine your code is code, not text file containing it
 
like roslyn then?
 
the textual representation might be the GCD
 
meta-programming?
 
@Maslow it might be stored as an AST alright
@JeroldHaas no, it's not metaprogramming.
it's just editing the program, not the textual code.
 
2:57 PM
sounds like AoP
 
IDEs can work much smarter if they keep the code in that form
@Maslow AoP?
 
Well, meant on a cursory level, not deep-diving meta-.
 
In computing, aspect-oriented programming (AOP) is a programming paradigm that aims to increase modularity by allowing the separation of cross-cutting concerns. AOP forms a basis for aspect-oriented software development. AOP includes programming methods and tools that support the modularization of concerns at the level of the source code, while "aspect-oriented software development" refers to a whole engineering discipline. Aspect-oriented programming entails breaking down program logic into distinct parts (so-called concerns, cohesive areas of functionality). Nearly all programming paradigms support...
 
@Maslow no, it's not that.
 
2:59 PM
@Maslow closer
however, there's nothing preventing you from using a semantically-aware editor for any language
 
alright
 
in fact, we're all doing that, just to limited extent
you can for example click that tiny "-" sign to collapse a code block
now imagine this code block wasn't made of characters in the grid, but it was just the code you see.
 
an editable AST?
 
This is an interesting attempt too.
@Maslow yep
 
ah, I have seen something like that... AST visualizers in C# somewhere... might have been in roslyn or part of roslyn
 
3:01 PM
the AST can be represented as text, but say for refactoring it makes more sense to draw functions as boxes, for example
that you can drag and drop from classes.
 
@Maslow nice.
 
that's why my brain went to Roslyn immediately
 
yeah I think I saw stack visualization and debugger on that in VS
it's a really great idea.
so yeah going back to the original problem, stuff like greek letters are way less of a problem if you use something like that instead of text
We're typing less and less because our IDEs fill out stuff for us anyway
 
@Bartek, are you talking about LISP?
 
3:07 PM
@jruizaranguren not specifically, no. Why?
 
imagine your code is code
 
done. I already do that all the time
 
I can't see things as draggable boxes. I've had experience with programming virtual modular synths with that paradigm and let me tell you it's not efficient.
 
neither is typing everything by hand, character by character
 
Labview is like that?
 
3:12 PM
windows workflows is like that msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/ff646977.aspx
 
I've found it's much more precise and simpler to debug when typed.
Synth or code, which, honestly, are similar ideas.
Synths are simply DSPs.
 
Dsp? DomainSpecificProjects?
 
DigitalSignalProcessor
 
ah
 
The "virtual analogue" ones are simply digital emulations, so DSPs again suit that need in engineering terms.
However, a mix of the two may work well.
As long as breakpoints can be caught and viewed properly. Such as: When a breakpoint is hit, the IDE drops into the box-in-a-box-in-a-box, to where the actual code is typed, showing the code lines.
 
3:16 PM
I put my code in a box.
sings lonely island
 
@JeroldHaas meh
I don't see why "a code line" should be more meaningful than "a code expression/statement"
 
It's just from my experience, and the opinion I've drawn from it thus far, @BartekBanachewicz
 
I still think it's a nice topic for research
 
I concur, but I don't think jumping head-first into a new programming paradigm without remembering our past is a wise decision. ;)
We've done that once already.
 
@JeroldHaas it's not a new programming paradigm
is more a way of editing code
 
3:33 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I suppose the IDE could be flexible enough to work for OO, F, or AOP...
 
@JeroldHaas I'd like to create that for one language as a PoC
 
I encourage you to do so!
 
@JeroldHaas Already started, more or less.
I don't have time to push that forward though.
 
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