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12:23 AM
@CSᵠ: personally, I think the "half-mod" idea for 50/100k users is terrible -- your experience with the site doesn't increase much over 20k reputation
 
@Qantas94Heavy you can't speak on your behalf since you're at 6k, only by observing
 
@CSᵠ: well neither are you ;) That's just my opinion though, yes through observing.
 
not sure what you meant with experience
 
@CSᵠ: well the idea about giving more privileges to users with more reputation is that you have more experience and trust from the community -- however from what I've seen users with 20k and 50k+ isn't as much as (say) 3000 and 10k rep.
 
rep is still hard to get
 
12:28 AM
@CSᵠ: not if you answer many questions -- it's all about mass production.
 
if one bothers to rep that high, why not give some privs to help the site..
an opinion also
 
For example, you can answer a whole bunch of jQuery questions that are borderline duplicates and easily get 10k/20k/30k
2
 
@Qantas94Heavy i know, unfortunately it's true, there are some bad seeds in any large enough bunch
 
 
1 hour later…
1:31 AM
Current Status
  1. Bohemian             [ 7278] (115k rep, 1491 helpful flags)
  2. bluefeet             [ 5404] ( 97k rep,21314 helpful flags)
  3. 0x7fffffff           [ 3492] ( 28k rep, 1226 helpful flags)
  4. Jon Clements         [ 3255] ( 44k rep,  815 helpful flags)
  5. Undo                 [ 2899] (  5k rep, 3889 helpful flags)
  6. Matt                 [ 2778] ( 34k rep, 3912 helpful flags)
  7. Siddharth Rout       [ 2431] ( 54k rep, 1623 helpful flags)
  8. meagar               [ 2370] ( 68k rep, 1870 helpful flags)
 
2:20 AM
@Shog9: why you spell my username with a "U" (i.e. "Quantas")?
 
@Qantas94Heavy force of habit
 
#3820130 to spell Qantas wrong
 
Same reason I spell Gaming "Arquaalude"
@Madara needs to stop ranking so low in that list. Where are all those PHP people when you need them?
 
I just noticed your name is not indeed Quantas
 
Hey, I upvoted him. Shut up.
 
2:22 AM
UPVOTE HARDER, DAMMIT
 
Can I downvote Doorknob too? </sarcasm>
 
@Shog9 Probably fixing php bugs
Because that's what you do with php
fix bugs all day long
 
i've used php only when it's 2-3 devs touching the code
 
Final election results: #16 Qantas. #4, darkhorse write-in candidate "Quantas"
 
2:38 AM
0x7fffffff - Shog9 === -Infinity
Is it just me or has the graph gone?
 
which graph? gone from where?
 
@Ahmad projects.wncc-iitb.org/jsonelections.html seems empty for me, but maybe that's the proxy doing its work. I swear I could access it yesterday but maybe my memory is fading...
 
nope empty for me as well
Yeah definitely not only you
Btw why do you need a proxy do access that site?
 
@Ahmad: I'm referring to a workplace proxy.
 
Oh okay
 
3:32 AM
@bluefeet one of them is light blue after a laundry accident. The other is still white :)
@Sathya Thanks
 
@Phil ah that's right, I thought it was pink for whatever reason.
 
@bluefeet I'll do another profile pic with it to illustrate my accident :) (Not right now, though)
 
3:47 AM
love this site.
@ah
 
@Bohemian Why aren't you talking in here?
 
4:08 AM
He's the tall, silent type
...actually, looks kinda short in his pic
He's the short, silent type
 
@Shog9 what does the wombat say?
 
One thing at a time - I still have listening to that fox song on my TODO list
 
 
1 hour later…
5:22 AM
upvoting edits has a meta thread, meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/36574/…
but it doesn't look like it's every gonna get done?
 
@MagicMan there have been a ton of suggestions along the same vein; see the comments on this question.
Can any candidate (or anyone, really) think of a real reason (as opposed to "don't change things") why the election questionnaire shouldn't be mandatory? Not for this election obviously, but for the next one?
 
6:09 AM
I think the onus is on you to justify why it should be mandatory
 
 
3 hours later…
9:19 AM
hello
 
@Shog9 That's cruel of you :(
 
 
4 hours later…
1:30 PM
@AaronBertrand Suffers from the same problem as mandatory comments with downvotes. Someone could just answer "sdfgsdagasgsa" to all of the questions and they'd probably get the same votes because most voters won't read the answers anyway.
 
2:03 PM
@Wooble I think it's highly improbable that someone would enter garbage when they're trying to get elected (in the down-voting case, I think the major fear is that people will find out who they are, and I think there you would just see people not down-vote rather than down-vote and enter garbage). However there have been multiple elections now where candidates essentially had to be forced to participate in the questionnaire (and I don't know for sure that all candidates have).
@Wooble If a candidate wants to enter garbage, fine, what's the problem? This gives voters a much better idea about them than abstaining ever could, and that's all I'm after here.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:27 PM
 
@AaronBertrand I'd go a step further and require voters to actually read it (or at least page through it like the about page).
 
@Kevin ha! While I agree, I think there is a lot of controversy about the value of forcing someone to "read" a page. :-)
 
@AaronBertrand I've considered posting it on MSO. As long as you get batter than 5:2 against, controvertial questions still give positive rep. 5:1 on answers.
But if I do it now I'll just look like a sore loser.
Meh, just posted as an answer to your question. Now I only need 5:1 agreement :)
 
0
A: Make moderator election questionnaire mandatory

FreshPrinceOfSOThe questionnaire should absolutely be mandatory. While I haven't analyzed previous elections, I would guess that higher rep users are carried in elections. This election, it has led to a particular candidate to completely ignore requests to participate in chat or the questionnaire. The problem...

 
 
1 hour later…
4:43 PM
@bluefeet Fixed, I used sed when I should have catted
So sed broke over the huge json argument
poor sed. it dead.
 
@Manishearth thx!
 
Also, wow that graph is dense
 
5:00 PM
@FreshPrinceOfSO So, I agree in theory, but realistically anybody is going to be able to skate by on the questionnaire
 
@meagar by skating by do you mean not doing it?
 
No, I mean, there's no guarantee that a person who fills it out does so honestly
 
Seems like a better option than a nomination summary
 
I don't know
I found most of the questions were no-brainers; I know they're about behaviour, but there are only so many actions a mod can take in response to given events
 
What I hear you saying is that a nomination summary of what a candidate would do once they became moderator is more accurate than responses about how they would behave in moderator situations?
 
5:10 PM
No, I believe he's saying a candidate could just give populist answers in both, and neither necessarily reflects what they're actually going to do.
It's easy to answer "How do you feel about link-only answers?" if you've ever hung out on meta for any amount of time.
 
@Geobits Yes, that.
 
Unless you have a better way of performing a evaluation on their potential behavior, I maintain that a questionnaire > nomination summary
 
I really don't
The only thing I can suggest is voting on their actual reputation, not their numeric reputation
 
@meagar what comprises the actual reputation ?
 
Just look at the whole picture. If you feel strongly that a candidate should have to answer, you just simply don't vote or vote down for anyone who doesn't. Not everyone has to share that view, and many had made up their mind before the questionnaire was even live.
 
5:14 PM
Their literal reputation
Like, how you know them from their day-to-day dealings on the site
 
Actual reputation is gauged by observing the candidates actions
It's no different than actual politics. A legislator's voting history says a hell of a lot more about them than their stump speeches.
 
That's hardly ever going to work, considering one of the candidates had a questionable Meta interaction recently.
@Geobits Actual politics is more $ = more votes
 
True, but I'm talking about content. A candidate's words and actions often don't align, and those actions are a better predictor of future behavior.
 
I agree with you
 
6:12 PM
are mods involved in creating new badges?
 
@MagicMan just like everyone else a mod can suggest a new badge but can't create them
 
@MagicMan if you have a suggestion for a badge, the best place to suggest it would be on meta
 
6:33 PM
@FreshPrinceOfSO So, I really don't want to mud sling, but I've seen you reference a "questionable meta post" repeatedly and I have no idea what you're talking about
 
7:17 PM
> Could a mod please see who did these and if they are the same person, please ask him/her to find another hobby?
Not mod material, IMO
 
7:30 PM
@FreshPrinceOfSO Hmm. What kind of meta participation do you expect of a potential mod? He's asked 41 questions spaced out somewhat evenly. He's answered only a few, but none of them are negative.
You on the other hand, have less questions in general, and most of them came around a year ago. As far as answers go, you didn't answer anything since last May, until the election started.
I'm pretty sure you could find a "questionable" post from just about anybody who's regularly active.
For the record, I'm not saying you're not mod-worthy. I'm saying that judging someone from one post can be somewhat harsh.
 
7:47 PM
hah, downvote stalking? no thanx, can I get an upvote stalker?
 
@MagicMan It's not much better, you just lose the rep the next day
 
@Geobits I don't refute my meta activity, but at least I don't go chasing downvote stalkers, which seems to be something mods face regularly (getting downvotes)
 
@FreshPrinceOfSO Honestly, the only reason I have a hard time voting for you is because of the numerous comments I've seen from you about/toward Bohemian. "Please answer the questionnaire or withdraw" and "questionable meta posts" in particular. It just seems so.... I dunno, petty? I mean, ok, the guy in the lead during the primary isn't acting the way you think he should, but your response is less modworthy than his actions, IMO.
 
@FreshPrinceOfSO to be fair, you've had a fair number of serial voters over the years - I expect you're kinda used to it by now.
 
@Geobits I disagree, and find it funny that the topic you chose is one that is actually quite contentious.
@Geobits even the current set of mods can't come to a consensus about what to do with link-only answers. So, if I'm strongly in one camp or the other, yes, I absolutely want to know how a candidate feels about them, and which camp is going to get another person on their side. This kind of thing is precisely something that is very likely to sway my decision, so yes, I think that kind of issue does make it important for a candidate to answer the questionnaire.
 
8:06 PM
Since this keeps coming up... From what I've seen, link-only answers are not particularly controversial, especially not among the current set of moderators (who have collectively deleted thousands of them).
What is controversial is the definition for "link-only answer"
 
While it's true that they can say in their questionnaire that they love link-only answers and then when elected destroy every single one that they see, that's much more transparent than not answering the questionnaire at all and then acting in one way or the other.
@Shog9 right, but I recall several recent scenarios where one person would flag a link-only answer as NAA, and get declined, and then someone else flagged it (maybe with additional context) and a different moderator accepted.
 
@AaronBertrand NAA has a very specific meaning (described in the flag dialog itself): an answer that makes no attempt to answer the question.
 
Ok, but my point is still two-fold: (a) I've had NAA flags on link-only answers accepted, and (b) different moderators do feel differently about how "useful" a link-only answer is.
 
Here's a variation on one of my favorite examples:
Q: How do I calculate the average of a column's values in TSQL?
A: The [AVG()](http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms177677.aspx) function.
That answer still isn't link-only but it is mostly link. And answers like that get flagged: as NAA, as VLQ, as other->"link-only answer"
 
That question should be closed as RTFM
I get your point, of course... formulating...
Some discussion to reflect on:
29
Q: Still having issues with link-only answer flags

Aaron BertrandYes, I have seen this question (and all of its derivatives): Can we get some consensus on what flag to use for link only answers? I'm having a hard time reconciling consistency. Earlier today, a colleague had a a link-only answer (10K) flag declined: This morning, I flagged the same answer w...

 
8:12 PM
well, that brings up *another* common scenario...
Q: What's a good tutorial for TSQL?
A: http://www.w3schools.com/sql/
 
93
Q: Can we get some consensus on what flag to use for link only answers?

Manishearth Related: Since moderators are just asking users to flag a custom "Link only answer," can we permanently make this a flag option? (not a dupe, that's a feature request and was closed as a dupe of another one) This (old) post does indeed say that Link-only answers can be flagged as NAA, bu...

@Shog9 also should be closed as shopping list
@Shog9 and the answerer tarred and feathered for recommending that site
 
@Shog9 Questions asking for favorite resource are off-topic
 
@AaronBertrand That actually is a link-only answer, in the most pure sense of the term. But yeah, flagging the answer is a really stupid thing to do - some mods will delete it, others won't, but the correct solution is to close the question - so if you're not flagging the question you're not helping.
 
@Shog9 it does not bother me
 
@Shog9 Ok, but now you seem to be suggesting that all answers that are link-only are on questions that should be closed, and this is absolutely not true. At all.
 
8:14 PM
Folks get all upset. "Inconsistency!" they scream. "The mods need to come to consensus!" they fret. "You're trying to get them to help you in your quest to arrange deck chairs on the Titanic." i explain.
 
Also @Shog9 What you said earlier hurt :( I'm gonna have to destroy you sooner than I thought...
:P
 
@AaronBertrand I said nothing of the sort.
I cannot stress this enough: the vast majority of link-only, link-mostly, link-containing very poor quality and not-answers... Are deleted without a murmur.
3
We get all this stupid meta drama because a handful of people can't see the forest for the trees and would rather whine about it than open their eyes.
 
@AaronBertrand I interpret it as if the question is one that solicits link-only then make sure you handle the question as well as the answer. If you just flag the answer and the question stays open then you aren't helping
 
Ok. If link-only answers should be a non-issue, then what the hell is it doing on the election questionnaire?
Obviously someone thinks it's an important enough topic to cull an answer from every single candidate (who bothers to answer).
 
yesterday, by slugster
@Shog9 candidates need a problem to fixate on, and voters need an issue to identify with.
That's pretty much it. It's a bikeshed issue.
"Do you hate link-only answers? I hate link-only answers! I'll bet I hate link-only answers 10,000% more than Candidate Smith! By comparison, he practically loves link-only answers!"
 
8:18 PM
Doesn't really matter how you want the issue to be treated, @Shog9. It's going to continue to be one of contention.
I only brought it up because it happens to be the one @Geobits called out as an example.
 
@AaronBertrand Doesn't mean I'm going to shut up about it. After all this election drama is done and over with, whoever gets elected is actually going to have to handle this stuff - better they know what to expect now.
 
@AaronBertrand and then there is the gray area of link-only answers to github
 
@AaronBertrand TBH, it was the shortest one I could remember right off hand. I didn't feel like going to the questionnaire and copy/pasting one in.
 
@bluefeet I don't think that's grey at all. It's an external site that can go down or disappear just like any other, and if the answer can't stand on its own if the user doesn't (or can't) click the link...
 
@AaronBertrand not sure everyone agrees
15
Q: Strategy to handle answers containing GitHub links

bluefeetI spend a fair amount of my time on Stack Overflow in the review queues, typically in the 10k tools for reviewing flags (NAA, New Answers to Old questions), and I think it might be fair to say that we have a slight problem with answers that are being posted with a link-only pointing to GitHub. ...

 
8:21 PM
@bluefeet it is never going to be the case that everyone agrees. I was stating my opinion.
 
@AaronBertrand trouble-maker! :)
 
@Geobits the issue you chose doesn't really matter; any of those questions could be the issue that I, as a voter, deem very important. My opinion is that not bothering to answer the questionnaire (or not being forced to), and not being present in the chat to answer my questions if I force it, demonstrates blatant disrespect for the issues, qualities and behaviors I deem important.
The problem is, not enough people are going to go out of their way to stand up for the issues they feel important, where simply not voting for the person who didn't cater to them is going to matter.
Whereas if every candidate must answer the question, all voters along the entire scale of caring have the option to read about how every single candidate feels about the issues brought forth in the questionnaire. I still can't fathom how this shouldn't be a requirement and what burden it causes to have the nominees make some statements about the issues.
 
@AaronBertrand bah, I'm reading through your links and then I suddenly realize I've previously posted answers in both of those discussions! My memory is fading
 
@Shog9 LOL
 
FWIW, we've logged 8282 views on the questionnaire answers so far - a far cry from the number of folks who've visited the election page, but not too shabby. Interested to see what it looks like by the end of the election...
 
8:29 PM
@Shog9 we should hire Nate Silver
 
@AaronBertrand So just don't vote for them. If you feel strongly about an issue, find candidates that do speak about those issues. In the main phase you only get three votes anyway(IIRC). Just as in real life, vote for those that agree with you on your key issues. If you don't know if a candidate agrees with you, don't throw your vote at an unknown.
 
@Shog9: is there anything in the works to remove some ambiguity from the flag options? I believe they could be a lot clearer by rephrasing some of the options/adding some specific ones
 
@Geobits once again, you're either missing my point or intentionally ignoring it. Ciao.
 
I'd vote to close as missing the point
 
@JeroenVannevel well, we've changed then twice in the past year - I could see a few tweaks, but it's really best to let things settle for a bit.
And they have to be at least somewhat ambiguous (or at least broad): you can't really enumerate every bad thing that can occur on a site like SO.
 
8:36 PM
@Shog9 One of the reasons I ask is mainly because of link-only/link-mainly (c) answers. Many of them do attempt to answer the question in the strict sense, it's just not in a good manner. By splitting this into a separate option you remove the ambiguity and make it clear for reviewers that the link-only rule has precedence over the strict interpretation of "not an answer" (sometimes we have to interpret the guideline at a flag strictly, sometimes we don't..).
additionally it might be easier for moderators to convert them to comments when they deem a link-mainly flag as valid
 
@JeroenVannevel that's the problem though: if we wanted to remove the ambiguity, we could just block / delete / convert-to-comment automatically, and then clean up the few that make it through.
 
I agree that you can't give a whole list of flag options since that would make things very unclear, but I think these link flags are extremely common
 
Heck, we already convert-to-comment for link-mostly answers pointing to internal pages, and outright block answers that are all link.
So what's left is a big grey area: a lot of it is outright trash, some of it is exactly what the (bad) question asked for, and some of it is... perfectly appropriate.
Links aren't evil.
Answers that are useless without the link are pretty bad though.
Really, what folks tend to get upset about is often not even the link - it's the length.
So... Should the minimum length for answers be longer?
@JeroenVannevel Keep in mind, "convert to comment" isn't a panacea. For those rare answers which don't try to answer the question but do provide something useful to the asker - and are very short - it makes sense.
But saying, "just convert all short answers to comments" is kinda crazy - comments are not very well supported compared to answers. If it's useful to anyone other than the asker, it should probably be in a place that can be edited, updated, searched for...
 
@Shog9 And this is what they can expect:
Ah, it's not uploading. Let me try again.
 
I definitely agree with the points you've raised.
 
8:44 PM
 
I don't follow up all my flags but I have noticed that - of those that I revisited - many of the NAA flags simply caused the answer to get deleted and not converted to a comment
 
@BradLarson I stopped flagging those a while ago - I'll comment and DV instead
 
I agree that links aren't good answers but they are suitable for comments. I think a lot of side information might have gone lost by simply removing the answers instead of converting them
 
We get piles of flags every day about "link only" answers, and they can be difficult to handle, so that's why I asked in the questionnaire. This is something they'll have to make a call on, and I know they take me a while to process.
 
@Shog9 I usually post such an "answer" as comment. If no one else answers it and the OP replies with "thanks, that worked" I add an answer that the OP can accept. But I would at least Quote the relevant part behind the URL, so even in the case of Link-rot, the answer is fine.
 
8:48 PM
FWIW, link.*only matches 108 flags in the queue right now
 
take a toy away, people will use custom reasons instead.
 
@JohannesKuhn they've been using custom reasons for years
 
One other reason why I think a 'link-only' flag is a good idea is exactly because it will provide an easy answer to the 'is this answer good enough with this link?' question. If you have to ask yourself that question then it probably isn't. Flag it as 'link-only' and convert it to a comment. This does assume that the rule on 'what is a link-only answer' is harshened (right now it is too lenient imo)
 
some of these have context attached to them:
> A link only answer with a dead link (I can't seem to find a new link to the original article). Not sure if mods can/will do anything about it as it's the accepted answer, but maybe you guys can do something. (PS. Thx for being a mod!)
some of them do not:
> 4 links. No explanation. Very much a link-only answer.
 
The only time a link and nothing more should be allowed is when the link IS the answer ("where do I find the docs?" - should this have been a good question)
 
8:51 PM
There is an "Other..." option for the close->off-topic reason. I've seen a custom close reason reading "... demonstrate a minimal understanding"
 
@JohannesKuhn When they first took away TL, people were using "this question appears to be off-topic because it is too localized."
 
yes.
4 mins ago, by Johannes Kuhn
take a toy away, people will use custom reasons instead.
but I haven't seen any "too localized" custom close reasons recently.
so it looks like it works.
 
They're now included in the 'lacks sufficient information' closing reason, I believe
that or the 'no longer reproduced'
a bit of both, probably
 
ahh, the "no longer reproduced" leads to a terrible idea: fix the missing semicolon and vote as "no longer reproduced" (without going into the post history)
 
9:48 PM
Well, should I prepare a concession speech?
 
9:58 PM
Thank you all for your votes, and your confidence. While it wasn't enough to get me to the next round, I appreciate your confidence, and look forward to still having the next year at least to be able to have time to program. Good luck to all those who advanced to the next round, and thank you for your commitment to serve!
That sound good enough?
 
classy
 
10:31 PM
Or maybe I just shorten it to "Thanks for not voting me in, and good luck to those who get stuck with the responsibility"?
 

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