« first day (28 days earlier)      last day (4905 days later) » 

6:00 AM
@RogerPate Yes here is the link.
 
are there any more really good examples of where this would help?
0
Q: Automatically lock posts heavily edited within a time frame

GnomeI liked this suggestion so much — and think it makes a poor 20k ability (sorry Andy) — that I'm suggesting it directly: Temporarily lock questions from being edited, to prevent ridiculous edit wars like this one. This could be handled by automatically locking any post with E edits in T minu...

 
6:14 AM
(if you remember some, but can't find a link, I'd like to know that too)
 
does the system give warning that someone's already editing if someone else is already editing what you start edit?
 
yes, but there's a race condition (JS on the edit page polls the server once a minute or once every two, or something like that)
I really prefer the solution to that problem, which is linked in my post and covers all kinds of edit conflicts, but it's just not gotten much attention
(so vote for both :P)
 
7:09 AM
you could post a link here
you apparently didn't tag it [c++], because I don't see that title in the feed
yes, post a link here if you want us to look at it
@PrasoonSaurav: new pic?
 
7:26 AM
@RogerPate Nope; I don't actually own a copy of the dragon book. This is a whole book on parsing. It looks like it's going to be a lot of fun (lots of math and theory, but it seems well-explained and very plainspoken, in a good way). First, though, I have to finish my lexer generator though...
 
7:37 AM
@RogerPate The Dragon Book is: Compilers: Principles, Techniques, and Tools, by Aho, Sehti and Ulman. Though I think it's now out of print, another good one is: Compiler Design in C, by Allen Holub.
 
I had the dragon book, gave it away (you never lend books)
ooh, they updated the cover!
 
someone posted that link earlier, iirc
 
It was either Parsing Techniques or Elements of Programming, and Parsing Techniques was less intimidating...
 
7:41 AM
interesting: no rads.so.com on chat links
 
@RogerPate There was no picture though...
The picture blurbs are obscenely large, though... :-/
 
yes, they are
I could've sworn there was a pic, maybe I looked it up online and saw the cover
 
@RogerPate Hehe. Yes. Howz it? :P
 
@RogerPate Yup -- every edition has featured a new cover. The first edition had a green dragon, and the second a red dragon. The cover of the third edition looks to me more like it should be a book on graphics shaders or something...
 
@PrasoonSaurav easier to see: larger face (I think, it just "looked different" to me when you joined)
ah, I've only seen the red
 
7:54 AM
@JamesMcNellis How could something as small and slim as EOP be intimidating? :-)
 
@JerryCoffin I think it's dense enough that it has its own gravitational field...
(Though, I guess since the book has mass it also has gravity? That's not what I meant...)
 
@RogerPate :-)
 
@JamesMcNellis I can't see how you'd say such a thing. Its density is quite reasonable -- about midway between a neutron star and a black hole...
 
@JerryCoffin I like to enjoy a glass of Scotch while reading technical books. That book was going to require the whole bottle.
 
@RogerPate That's not surprising -- doing a quick check, the second edition came out in 1986...
 
8:08 AM
What do you guys have to say about the book Programming Language Pragmatics by Michael Scott? Is is easier to read and understand than The Dragon book?
 
@JamesMcNellis Hmm...I've always preferred wine to Scotch, but it's taken close to a full case so far, and I'm starting to believe I won't really understand it until at least one more time through...
 
@PrasoonSaurav Having read neither book, my opinion is that a book with a dragon on the cover is, by virtue of it having such an awesome cover, better than a book with flowery trees on the cover.
 
@PrasoonSaurav I haven't read it, but I've always considered the Dragon Book quite readable and understandable, considering the type of material it covers.
 
I have read a first few chapters(1,2,3,4) of The Dragon book. The "Dragon" tried to kill me in Chapter 4. :P
Amazon.com has given PLP 5-star rating BTW. ;-)
 
@PrasoonSaurav Some of ScHIldT's books have good ratings on Amazon too.
 
8:22 AM
@PrasoonSaurav I don't place much credence in Amazon ratings, but the ACCU gives it a "Highly Recommended", which I'd say means a bit more: accu.org/…. Francis Glassborrow (the guy who wrote this review) is a long-time participant on comp.lang.c++ and the Principal UK Expert (PUKE -- you've got to love it) on the C++ standard committee.
 
@JerryCoffin I was just about to post that...
 
Oh yes C++: The Complete Reference has got 4 and a half rating. :(
@JerryCoffin I get this : Programming Language Pragmatics by Michael Scott - [Highly recommended](http://accu.org/index.php?module=bookreviews&func=search&rid=1096) ;)
 
@tina It's a book about compiler development; there's a link above.
 
What happened to my last comment? BTW here is the review
 
@PrasoonSaurav Isn't that the same link that @JerryCoffin just posted?
 
8:30 AM
@PrasoonSaurav In a way, that's even fair -- as I've pointed out several times before, ScHIldT is a great author -- of fiction. I'm halfway serious -- his writing is quite understandable, his style is engaging, and so on. Purely in terms of writing style, I'd say he's almost the equal of Scott Meyers, and probably better than (for one example) Herb Sutter. His only problem is that he hasn't a clue in the world of what he's talking about, so a lot of what he teaches so well is wrong.
4
 
@JamesMcNellis Ohh my mistake. Need another cup of coffee.
 
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
 
@JerryCoffin :D :D
The wiki page of Herber Schildt says

_He was a member of the original ANSI committee that standardized the C language in 1989, and the ANSI/ISO committees that updated that standard in 1999, and standardized C++ in 1998.[2]_

What happened to that? Why does he often get criticized?
 
@PrasoonSaurav I think "The Annotated Annotated C Standard" sums it up nicely.
@tina: The people here are mostly contributors to C++ questions on Stack Overflow; we aren't a group of UML experts...
 
@JamesMcNellis OMG! So many mistakes. What happened to him? He was a member of ANSI/ISO committees that updated that standard in 1999. :-o
 
8:43 AM
shrug
 
@PrasoonSaurav Anybody who's willing to pay a fee can become a member of the committee. I've known a pretty fair number of committee members for years, and from what they've said, none of them has ever met him -- if he ever attended even a single meeting, it must have been a long time ago (definitely long before 1999).
 
none of them has ever met him made me chuckle :P
@tina No!
@tina One thing I must say : you don't have patience. Sorry.
 
Hi all !!! I am confused with the notion of trivial c'tor. Danny kalev in the article informit.com/guides/content.aspx?g=cplusplus&seqNum=364 says that a trivial c'tor is only declared, not defined by compiler. But when we create an object, then how it is created without any definition of c'tor ?
 
@HappyMittal It's only defined if it is used.
 
8:59 AM
@James : So is the article flawed?
 
@HappyMittal No. The first sentence of the answer is "An implicitly-declared default constructor is implicitly-defined if and only if the implementation needs that definition."
It then lists the cases where the implementation needs the definition.
 
"A constructor is trivial if it is an implicitly declared default constructor and if: its class has no virtual functions and no virtual base classes, and all the direct bases of its class have trivial constructors, and for all nonstatic data members of its class that are of class type (or array thereof), each such class has a trivial constructor."
 
@James : Ok..So in the case in which implementation doesn't require definition, how does declaration helps in the creation of object (For Ex: Date d;) ? If a function has only declaration, but not definition, then if we use that function, we get error. Similarly here, if c'tor is only declared, but not defined, then shouldn't it be error ?
moreover, the article doesn't mention standard's 12.1/7 which says "An implicitly-declared default constructor for a class is implicitly defined when it is used to create an object of its class type "
 
@HappyMittal The compiler needs to generate the implicit declaration when it generates the class definition (at least conceptually). It doesn't need to generate a definition until you actually use it.
@HappyMittal That's not really different from the first sentence of the answer.
@HappyMittal Also note that @JerryCoffin is absolutely right: there's a big difference between a trivial default constructor and an implicitly declared default constructor.
 
@HappyMittal The compiler is specifically given permission to elide use of constructors under certain conditions -- but it's still required to check that if it hadn't elided its use, that the code would be legitimate.
 
9:08 AM
@JamesMcNellis : I think @HappyMittal made a valid point. The article nowhere mentions 12.1/7.
 
this is one area of the standard that could be cleaned up
 
@JamesMcNellis I can't really take credit for that -- it's just a quote from the standard (though without trying to preserve formatting).
 
@PrasoonSaurav How is what 12.1/7 says ("An implicitly-declared default constructor for a class is implicitly defined when it is used to create an object") substantially different from what the article says ("An implicitly-declared default constructor is implicitly-defined if and only if the implementation needs that definition")?
@RogerPate I think it's been revamped in C++0x.
@JerryCoffin You can take credit for posting it, though.
 
Yes it is not but playing with words isn't of any use. :-)
 
@PrasoonSaurav I don't understand your point...
 
9:14 AM
@RogerPate This has been revised (considerably) in C++0x, though it may be open to some question whether it's really a cleanup or not. The new rules that allow =default, =implicit, etc., make this part of the standard even longer and more complex, if anything.
 
@JamesMcNellis I mean instead of writing "An implicitly-declared default constructor is implicitly-defined ...." he could have directly mentioned 12.7/1, simple.
 
What I don't understand is that he says " If compiler doesn't declare default c'tor we will get the error if we try to create an object like Date d; in which Date is a POD type" . Now here implementation doesn't require definition so compiler only declares c'tor, not defines it. But how does the declaration allows creation of object d ?
 
OTOH, those do (probably) allow code to more directly express the intent (than current code, that does things like declaring private ctors just to cause the default one to be deleted).
 
@PrasoonSaurav Following that logic, any article or book about C++ should consist solely of quotes from the standard; that doesn't sound like a good idea.
 
@HappyMittal : The implementation requires the definition in that case. How could you say that the implementation doesn't require the definition?
 
9:19 AM
@Prasoon : Because it doesn't meet any of the 3 criteria he mentions : classes with virtual member functions, Base and embedded subobjects, Virtual inheritance.
 
@JamesMcNellis No I mean "An implicitly-declared default constructor for a class is implicitly defined when it is used to create an object of its class type " is simpler to understand than "An implicitly-declared default constructor is implicitly-defined...". That's what I think. :-)
@HappyMittal As @JamesMcNellis said Kalev mentions "An implicitly-declared default constructor is implicitly-defined if and only if the implementation needs that definition ". In this case the implementation needs a definition.
 
@prasoon : How can you say that implementation needs a definition ? According to his article, for a POD type, implementation doesn't need a definition.
 
@JerryCoffin ack, =implicit!
@JerryCoffin: and you have to expect pedanticism on edge-cases from programmers :)
 
@HappyMittal I think the article is basically flawed. At least as I read it, it's saying (or at least strongly implying) that a "trivial constructor" is an implicitly declared construct that's never defined. That simply is not true. A constructor is trivial (or not) based on the criteria I listed above. It's being defined or not is completely separate from that -- if you use the class in a way that requires the definition, it'll be defined, whether it's trivial or not.
@RogerPate Yup -- I actually thought of that about five minutes after posting, but decided it wasn't worth editing to add it...
 
"A binary stream need not meaningfully support fseek calls with a whence value of SEEK_END." C99, §7.19.9.2p3 — interesting
 
9:29 AM
@HappyMittal Thats not true. You know what the Standard says and that's correct. His complete paragraph says "Answer: An implicitly-declared default constructor is implicitly-defined if and only if the implementation needs that definition. The implementation needs an implicit definition in the following cases:" and nowhere mentions what would happen if the class is of POD type.
 
@RogerPate Yup -- the "standard" way of finding the size of a file by seeking to the end and then doing an ftell isn't portable. If you open as binary, the seek to the end doesn't necessarily give meaningful results. If you open as text/translated, the ftell doesn't necessarily give meaningful results...
 
@PrasoonSaurav So when object d in case of Date d; is created, then trivial c'tor is also defined. Am I right ?
 
@HappyMittal Yes.
 
So what's the significance of implicit(only declaration) of c'tor ? Unless I create an object, I am not using that class, so when that "only declaration" thing comes into play?
 
9:37 AM
@HappyMittal As I said before, it's significant primarily because the standard allows use of a constructor to be omitted at times, but still requires the compiler to check that the constructor in question would be accessible if it was used. The implicit declaration is always public, so it says it would be accessible if it was used.
Truthfully, I think the article is at least deceiving (if not downright wrong) toward the end. Starting from: "The compiler implicitly declares the following member functions for Date:" down to the end, almost everywhere it says "trivial", really just means "implicit". Just for example, most of his examples would be equally applicable to a class with a virtual function (in which case the ctor would be non-trivial).
 
9:56 AM
why do people love crappy editors?
 
@RogerPate Because they're all crappy, but still a whole lot better than a flat stone and a chisel!
 
meh, I almost commented that when you're changing your code that much... then thought of James' comment on biting your tongue
 
sbi
Now that's annoying: "You have fully used your vote allowance for today"
 
so I complained here instead :)
 
sbi
I'm not even halfway through the >500 messages you piled up while I was asleep!
 
9:58 AM
@sbi: there's a badge for that
you have a ways to go on votes anyway, 4.2k is low
 
sbi
@Roger Dammit, this was here, in the chat!
 
oh, you ran out of interesting stars?
I didn't even realize that was limited
but I'd have expected it, they've rate-limited everything interesting
 
Well, it's getting a bit too late for me -- 'night all.
 
sbi
10:18 AM
Late? I just got up! Sleep well, Jerry, anyway.
Haha, "Schildt's a great author -- of fiction..."! That made me lol!
Hu? Anybody out there?
That's typical. When I come here to play with you guys, you've all gone to bed already. :(
2
 
you're "timezone challenged"
 
sbi
Yeah, definitely.
Where're your from, BTW? You seem to be always online.
 
10:33 AM
EST
I'm just flexible plus always at the computer :)
"3*4 != 7" stackoverflow.com/questions/4172045/… we can be brutal sometimes
 
sbi
10:58 AM
@RogerPate en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EST#Time (Oh boy, inlining blows this one.)
I guess NAEST and AEST are the most likely candidates.
 
sbi
11:32 AM
Interesting:
They have a video at the end:
Wow, Letdown inlines youtube links!
 
sbi
12:02 PM
1
Q: C++ parsing time

CpaHi there, Out of curiosity, I was wondering what were some "theoretical" results about parsing C++. Let n be the size of my project (in LOC, for example, but since we'll deal with big-O it's not very important) Is C++ parsed in O(n) ? If not, what's the complexity? Is C (or Java or any simple...

 
 
2 hours later…
1:54 PM
@tina what?
 
user69820
2:04 PM
@tina this one?
 
user69820
1
Q: project design of c++ project

tinai have a package of 2d System that do operations on spatial objects like point,line polygon etc .. ok now i have 2d packages as a system boundary by which user can interact..so i ma thinking to provide use case on 2d system package .. while inside the 2d system package .. there are three more ...

 
sbi
Fred had another stab at adding to the FAQ:
4
Q: What is the rule of three?

FredOverflowWhat is the rule of three?

 
2:28 PM
HAHA
Sbi's 1st Fan is on
yes i'm the hahah Mr xD
 
sbi
@Johannes Ha, did I lure you into the chat?
Waddaya mean "sbi's 1st fan"?
 
=)
@sbi just some running gag =)
 
sbi
Ah, I thought you were switching allegiances daily now. :)
 
hehe
so the batavia meeting is over it seems?
 
sbi
???
 
2:38 PM
wg21 meeting
 
sbi
Oh, I missed the fact that this was on.
 
was this week. they discussed implicit moves and those override/final/strictness attributes and automatic deduction of noexcept and fun things
 
sbi
So that's the reason for tweets like
Looks like implicit move is here to stay, folks, with some tighter restrictions for when it gets generated. #cpp #wg21
 
ohh
someone of the finnland delegation reportet to us on ##c++ about the progress. they are going to have context keywords for void f() override; and void f() final; i think i like that
 
sbi
@tina We're talking C++ here. You're the only one trying to talk UML.
Ugh. I'm not sure I like the idea of context keywords.
@tina There's also the psychology of programmers to talk about, and once in a while it's also nice to do this here - just as with UML. But this is the C++ chat lounge, and not your personal whatever-I-need-today support forum.
Most of us are tired of your questions, and I bet many are already ignoring you. (I had your messages blocked for a while, and am _very_ annoyed to still see the old litany now that I tried to unblock you.)
BTW, *some advice for newcomers* here:
You can edit your messages for 2mins. Try the `v` arrow to the left of it. You can edit your last messages using `cursor up`, `escape` cancels this.
Markdown sort of works here, but we've come to rename it as Letdown, because it's pretty buggy.
Reply to others using the familiar @syntax. Reply to specific messages by clicking on the little down-right arrow appearing at its very right when you hover over it.
At the same spot there's also a star to mark messages you like. As with votes on SO, your number of stars/day is limited.
Ugh. Letdown striking again.
 
2:49 PM
@sbi harsh but fair words. I don't mind helping, but I don't like being expected to answer every question
 
sbi
@thecoshman Thanks.
 
yeah you dont get reps for helping in here so why should i waste my time hahaha
 
sbi
@Johannes Because it's fun wasting time here?
 
So is C++0X proposing that you have to declare that you are over-riding a function and declare when you don't want derived classes to be able to override?
@JohannesSchaublitb I don't help for the rep in the main site, I don't care for the 'rep', I help because I like to help, but I want to be able to chat with out questions coming at me all the time, the ticker at the top is more then enough for me
 
@sbi ohh!
/me sips his tea
 
2:51 PM
@sbi your welcome
 
dammit why haven't they implemented IRC commands already
 
@JohannesSchaublitb stop stealing other peoples tea!
 
i'm an egoistic retard so i'm only after the rep
 
@JohannesSchaublitb because this ain't IRC... though why it is not is beyond me
@tina It may sound like a tired point, but taking the time to ask a question well makes people want to answer it well
 
@thecosh only if you say struct foo explicit : lulz { }; then if you override something in lulz you have to explicitly say that
@thecosh similar if you aim for hiding a function you need to say void f() new;
you mean APS ?
is he really hanging in here?
 
sbi
2:55 PM
@JohannesSchaublitb Now I regret that I have already spent all my stars for today.
 
what the hell... why is @thecosh targeting me... clearly I am insecure about my manlyness and need to have it stated all the time
 
ergh... trying to do a HCI/UI cwk, but it just sucks soo many monkey balls
 
sbi
@JohannesSchaublitb Alf appeared a few days ago. I think he was online until around the time woke up, though, so you might not see him here any time soon. :)
@thecoshman Erm. What??
 
@tina It just you are asking a lot of question in chat that would be better of in the main site. A lot of your question are more general UML questions, ones that don't direcetly relate to just c++. The main site is also more permanent and so a question asked there can be looked up by some one later asking a similar question
 
2:58 PM
we should have geordi in here xD
 
@sbi Human Computer Interaction / User Interface design = fluffy non science crap => lame
 
how can you link answers or questions?
 
sbi
@Johannes Re Alf: His last message was about 5:45 your time (chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/108235#108235)
 

« first day (28 days earlier)      last day (4905 days later) »