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12:03 AM
Also why "honking"?
 
it's more than just a great idea
it's a honking great idea
 
I know, but the adjective choice is weird. Not blaming Peters or anything, but I would've said "seriously"
 
but it's not serious
 
Ok...
 
This is a language named after Monty Python, after all
 
12:06 AM
Btw is there a way to set opacity of fill color in turtle?
@WayneWerner Yes! Although I would have named mine after fluffy kitties, whether I'm in so python chat or not.
 
@BoxTechy I suspect not. But then again, I've never done something like lmgtfy.com?q=python+turtle+set+fill+color+opacity
That's just because you're not Dutch ;)
 
ROAR WHY?!?!?!
I'm half Indian half American but not Native American, if you know what I'm talking abt
Thx
 
So real Indian, then :)
 
Yeah
Also I prefer DuckDuckGo
IDK why
 
I vacillate
One of my browsers has DDG as the default
most searches it's fine
 
user559633
12:11 AM
i'm an askjeeves man, myself. i ask my neighbor, jeeves, questions about the world. he's a bit older and very worldly and he generally knows
 
So many words I don't know!
 
but some searches all of the sudden it just goes stupid. So I just !g my search
 
Altavista FTW!
 
Yes, bangs are awesome!
There's one for everything!
 
@ZeroPiraeus STOP! Hammer 1990s time
 
12:13 AM
Yay you're back
 
I don't know how it happened, but google just suddenly was, and things were findable on the internet. Oh the glory.
 
The room is so active now, but it's mostly me
True
But then everyone pooled in, so google doesn't have the entire market share.
But I still use GDrive
 
Yeah, my brother started using Google back when it was new and introduced me to it
we were Altavista before that
 
I guess I could make bit.ly/28Qt6dQ in scratch w/ pen opacity
Even though the new Google logo is not new anymore, it still feels so new
 
That's wild
 
12:18 AM
the old one was much better
 
Product Sans would've been a better font for Undertale's Sans to talk in than Comic Sans
 
@tristan will that make me throw up?
 
Also I'm too worried to accept because of the EULA crud
 
oh yes it will
 
12:20 AM
It would've been sometime after '99 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_logo
 
?
this.s is the Zen in ROT-13 and can be decoded via this.d.
Why this.i and this.c
HOW DID I NOT THINK OF THIS BEFORE
 
> That was all back in the day when the Python community had a sense of humor.
 
I'll be off now, bye
 
user559633
12:44 AM
 
user559633
sad to admit i just made myself giggle as i forgot i set these titles
 
at least your sense of humour is consistent;)
good night
 
user559633
night!
 
12:57 AM
I once worked in Paris, IL
remember that used to make me chuckle
 
user559633
 
user559633
i love the bit of trash on the ground in front of the sign
 
1:13 AM
what trash? I just see snow and a marking flag
 
user559633
i meant the marking flag.
 
not really trash....I hate when I miss questions due to misreading them
also, the correct answer to "what is the current standard for CSV files?" is "there is no standard"....but apparently, explaining that at length (with references) is not a good idea in an interview
 
user559633
what a weird question for an interview
 
I know right, and even weirder is pushing the wrong answer (I thought it was a trick question)
 
user559633
"the standard for CSVs is using commas to separate values?"
 
1:20 AM
my statement was basically "there is no set standard for CSVs, but some standards include ... commas with quotes, commas without quotes, pipes, ..."
they wanted me to quote whatever is on some MS website somewhere
 
user559633
if the police call me, i'll claim not to know how the building caught on fire
 
nah, I've never caught a building on fire....some have had seemingly magical structural faults but that just cause I'm unlucky I guess
 
user559633
yeah weird. that jgreenwell guy is a national treasure though. beyond reproach. salt of the earth edit: crossed that expression out because i looked it up and it turns out my grandmother has been a jerk to me for decades
 
....granted, I have had one group I interviewed with, a while ago, call me the next day and demand I tell them how I took down there servers. Considering I was at the time living in a barracks with non-broadband internet, I just laughed at them
lol, that is a complement in the midwest as anyone uncommon must be weird or otherwise a manager - ah, the only region that hates managers on a whole not just in IT - it is nice sometimes :)
 
user559633
lol i'm still mentally processing that my grandmother thinks of me as "simple, but alright, i guess"
 
1:28 AM
just think of it as knowledgeable not a jerk trying to lead people without a clue - that's closer to the meaning
 
user559633
aww shucks, thanks
 
user559633
when's your first batch of students as a professor?
 
user559633
also, congrats again. i'm proud of you
 
mid-July
have a few other adjunct and high school feelers out so might start with other students (fingers crossed, adjuncts do not make a lot :P :)
lol, I am going through Khan Academy to test it as a resource for teaching (esp people who need remediation) and my wife just looked at me and said "you should probably take an actual lesson instead of just answering all the questions".....whoops
 
1:58 AM
Well, Good Job, chat... no, don't bother refreshing until after I send a message that corresponded to a message from hours ago :P
@JGreenwell There's a Paris, Arkansas that's near here
 
user559633
 
@JGreenwell Good times. That's kind of how I do most MooCs that I've ever kind of done
I know of London, England, and Paris in Arkansas
ah, Dover is another
 
Granted there are at least 10 places in the US with the same name as the place I grew up
 
2:06 AM
Wow... There was a Paris band... which was also the name of Poison before they were Poison. And there's a rapper named Paris.
 
including one in Arkansas
 
DSM
Unexpected evening cabbage.
 
user559633
Oh hey DSM :)
 
user559633
pressure intensifies to make a funny
 
DSM
Ehh, we're in the same time zone. Too late for comedy pressure, and not late enough for the second wind. :-)
 
user559633
2:19 AM
i've been writing/bootstrapping front-end code for 2 days. drinking helps make sense of JS in 2016
 
especially with the bootstrap framework
 
user559633
the JS hivemind have convinced themselves that they're writing "pure" FP, that hundreds of dependencies for a single library is fine, that rebranding/renaming simple patterns/behaviors is the way to go, that 500kb for a webpage is "lightweight", and that they want to play with a different set of libraries every 6 months
 
the hivemind likes to switch between calling it FP and imperative based
the fancy ones just call it a multi-paradigm language
the library changes do destroy the mind though, yes
 
user559633
the react.js crowd seems heavily convinced that they're not dealing in state, which is hilarious
 
DSM
One of the few facts I remember from my front-end time is that I was a little disappointed to learn that cdn wasn't short for Canadian.
 
user559633
2:31 AM
one of my eyes has yet to unstick from the corner when i rolled it so hard when a JS library's documentation included a quote and picture of alan kay
 
DSM
The Alan Kay? (he said, stalling while he went to google)
 
user559633
there's a contingent that really thinks they're making high-fucking-art
 
user559633
immutable.js
 
I like Alan Kay cause he tells people to, paraphrased, shut it about the "revolution being here" and singularity junk.
also FB's library is A. not immutable & B. takes a lot of conversion from JS to JSON to Frameworks; so I feel that pain
 
user559633
if happiness exists, and is not just a subjective state triggered by chemical exchanges in the brain, it would be observable in watching a JS expert write code in scheme or python
 
2:39 AM
no, young grasshopper. Happiness is making them do it.
also known as the first line in the technology section of a syllabus stating "All code in this class is to be written in Python...."
 
 
2 hours later…
4:33 AM
Cbg
Up early to the news it looks like the UK have voted to leave the EU.
 
Yeah same. Fucking idiots.
@tristan what's the point of a startup if you can't have a sweet PC for going top startup analytics (and playing DOOM)?
Goodbye Scotland. Hell, someone even mentioned the idea of Goodbye Ireland after this.
In 10 years time we can look back at this at sopycon 2026 and honestly regret this.
 
4:52 AM
Has Sadiq come out for independence for London yet? ;-)
 
I tend to agree. We'll see, I guess.
@ZeroPiraeus :D
I heard a call for the People's republic of Tooting
Morning @Antti. Your reverse psychology failed to convince a nation, apparently.
 
DSM
You lot muddled through for a good while without the EU. Something tells me you'll survive.
 
Different times then.
 
Aye, I'm sure. In what form, I'm less sure. I fear there is a lot of nostalgia for a time that never was behind this vote.
 
DSM
The differences would seem to speak to me in favour of decentralized power, not centralized bureaucracies in distant cities, but time will tell.
 
4:56 AM
We owned most of the world, thus making us much bigger (and bigger than the eu :p)
 
But also a huge dissatisfaction with the establishment.
I think it's just become official with that last declaration.
 
@JRichardSnape sigh
 
TBH, though, I think you had a better campaign than Cameron, Osborne and Corbyn put together ;)
 
@DSM the problem here in Finland is that the cabinet is full of incompetent idiots.
I want to give as little power as possible to them
 
Boris or Gove? Gotta be Boris.
 
4:59 AM
Yeah - Gove would be terrible as PM
Not that I rate Boris much above a caretaker.
 
There'd be riots.
 
Boris would make the ugliest PM in the world
 
Even the Tory Party isn't stupid enough to elect Gove as leader ... question is whether Boris can be prevented from getting on the ballot (because he'd definitely win among the members).
 
I personally know teachers that would riot.
 
I think Theresa May is in with a good shout.
@Ffisegydd true that, he was awful in education. Although they don't give a f*ck about teachers.
 
5:01 AM
... goood... GOOOD... I can feel your anger.... let it grow, it makes you stronger
 
Lots of Tory MPs (especially on the leave side) urging Cameron to stay on, which is interesting. Suggests to me that they're angling for time so they can coalesce around an antiBoris ... May, probably.
 
@ZeroPiraeus agree with that analysis
Problem with Boris is that he's a tactician without strategy. Unless you count self maximisation as a strategy. But popular, good at winning over a crowd, no doubt.
 
England will be screwed
 
You can get away with not wanting to do the actual job as Mayor ... I think he'd unravel quickly as PM, and he's nver been liked in the parliamentary party.
 
"Who cares about Englishmen, can we keep Scottish?"
 
5:08 AM
Again, I agree. I worked on the underground while he was mayor - saw a little of transport policy from within the mayor's office. Truth was, he had no vision and, as you imply, didn't really want to do the job, just a stepping stone for him.
@AnttiHaapala :) we'll see - that's the next question. Actually - I think another Scottish independence referendum is the last thing the SNP powers wanted right now, but they may be forced into it.
I think I need bacon. I've been awake too long already.
 
DSM
Sounds like you need sleep more than bacon! Although they're not mutually exclusive.
 
Pub lunch today. Gonna get drunk.
 
New elections. Norsefire gets 98 %. Adam Susan appointed as prime minister. England Prevails!
 
Great film.
 
in film, Sutler.
I haven't read the comic though :D
 
5:16 AM
One of the many things that depresses me about this is that in either case, it'd be such a slender majority.
 
@DSM Ever logical :) sleep would be preferable, but untenable as work don't really hold with napping in the office. Bacon and Coffee will have to suffice.
 
Some Tory MP already suggesting pm may need to step down 3 minutes after referendum. Man I hate politics.
 
DSM
When Quebec very narrowly voted to remain, it caused a similar discomfort. Eventually things settled down.
 
Got shit MP, now being replaced for something shittier :d
 
"The British people have made their views clear" No they bloody haven't. A fraction under half disagree!
 
DSM
5:20 AM
Because I wanted this outcome, I can't pretend to share all the feelings of my Remain friends, but having been on the losing end of a great number of political fights I can at least appreciate the experience.
 
Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.
 
DSM
And now, for better or worse, you'll have more of it. :-)
 
We'll see
 
@DSM why'd you want to tear apart UK
 
I'm fascinated by turnout. Although it's good (72%), I'm intrigued by the 12 million or so voters who were registered but didn't vote.
 
5:26 AM
Leave campaigner Nigel Evans said it was the UK's "Berlin Wall moment".
Jackass.
 
DSM
@AnttiHaapala: the short version is that I like decentralization. I see no reason for Canada (which has roughly half the UK's pop and GDP, if memory serves) to need to join some North American superstate.
 
@DSM I have a lot of sympathy with that point of view (and am distinctly unconvinced by the pro-remain economic arguments), but there's something else to consider: this makes the disintegration of the EU more likely. Quite right too, you might say, but that's likely to happen alongside a distinct move rightwards (and increasing militarisation) of Germany, whose containment as the naturally dominant power in Europe was the point of creating the ECSC→EEC→EU in the first place.
 
And I am for United Federation of Planets. How can we get that if United Federation of Europe is not possible
 
DSM
5:43 AM
The argument that Britain should stay in the EU to help keep the Germans down (and yes, that's a reference to the old NATO line about keeping the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down) seems a bit of a stretch to me. Admittedly it's too complex a matter to be well discussed at 1:40 EDT, though!
And on that note I will say rhubarb to all, a rhubarb purchased without permission from Brussels but which tastes as good as any. (Which is to say, not at all: I hate rhubarb.)
 
rbrb :-)
 
6:16 AM
But Martin McGuinness, Sinn Féin, said the entire island of Ireland should now be able to vote on reunification.
 
Indeedilydoodee
 
The United Kingdom of England and Wales.
 
cbg
 
@AnttiHaapala That doesn't really make any sense ... should all of Russia + Ukraine get to vote on reunification?
 
@AnttiHaapala This happened in Russia as well.
I want a remote job. Must be fun to work from wherever you want/
 
6:27 AM
@ZeroPiraeus depends on how you count the votes
 
>We have great benefits
>New Mac gear
god damn
 
Perhaps I should make it clear that I think partition was a terrible mistake ... but the appropriate electorate for that question is the population of Northern Ireland, and they would vote to remain in the UK.
 
scotland <3
 
Norwich looks like the furious eye of a demonic East Anglian head in that map ...
 
6:37 AM
HOW AGES VOTED (YouGov poll) 18-24: 75% Remain 25-49: 56% Remain 50-64: 44% Remain 65+: 39% Remain #EUref
this..
 
Er ...
HOW PARTIES VOTED (YouGov poll) Tory 43 Remain, 57 Leave Labour 69 Remain, 31 Leave Libs 73 Remain, 27 Leave Ukip: 7 Remain, 93 Leave #EUref
7% UKIP remain? Who are those people?
 
:d
the smart ones
 
@Zero I was reading that last night - had me confused as well - one would have thought the clue was in the title :)
 
wat :D
Leave's really think they're staying in the common market, close UK borders, and travel & work freely in the Europe :D
lol
ahha :D cameron continues as PM <3
it might just be that UK's purpose is to serve as a warning to others...
 
@AnttiHaapala No, if we stay in the single market we'd have to have open borders.
A lot of people, who are scared by immigration, have effectively voted to leave the EU.
Now we'll stay in the single market, keep the same immigration, but not be able to affect any changes within the EU as a political entity.
Or we leave the single market.
 
6:50 AM
CBG!
 
Good for you.
Why don't you start again, but use Shift+Enter and Ctrl+K to get your code looking properly?
 
def get_expiry_time(current_time=datetime.now()):
      print current_time
@Ffisegydd: Thanks for helping out
 
The default value for current_time is set to datetime.now() when the function is defined, not when it's called.
 
Alternative debug: You're trying to use the datetime module by mistake.
 
6:55 AM
Wow!
You people are awesome!
 
Ah yes, that too :-)
 
I mean.. I'm trying to get current time as default
 
def get_expiry_time(current_time=None):
    if current_time is None:
        current_time = datetime.now()
     print(current_time)
 
You can't do it that way. This is the standard idiom for what you want:
Oh, Fizzy beat me to it.
 
Thanks again @Ffisegydd
But I need some explanation here as why it won't take datetime.now() as default ?
 
6:59 AM
Because the function is called at definition.
 
It will, but it will calculate it once, at definition time.
 
So why not when it's called ?
 
Because you've bound the result to the keyword current_time
 
def add (x = 2, y = 3):
     print x+y
I was implementing that as above
 
27
Q: Why are default arguments evaluated at definition time in Python?

Mert NuhogluI had a very difficult time with understanding the root cause of a problem in an algorithm. Then, by simplifying the functions step by step I found out that evaluation of default arguments in Python doesn't behave as I expected. The code is as follows: class Node(object): def __init__(self,...

 
7:04 AM
def func():
  print("I'll be called on definition of buddy. You'll only see my print once, no matter how often my function buddy gets called!")
  return 7

def buddy(x=func()):
  print("Yaaaaaaaaay! " + str(x))


buddy()
buddy()
buddy()
buddy()
buddy()
buddy()

I'll be called on definition of buddy. You'll only see my print once, no matter how often my function buddy gets called!
Yaaaaaaaaay! 7
Yaaaaaaaaay! 7
Yaaaaaaaaay! 7
Yaaaaaaaaay! 7
Yaaaaaaaaay! 7
Yaaaaaaaaay! 7
 
mind = "blown"
Sometimes it hurts that I don't know these simple things.. makes me feel sad..
@Ffisegydd: Your example I'll remember. Thanks!
 
It trips a lot of people up. Here's another example that beginners tend to find counterintuitive:
>>> def f(x, y=[]):
...     y.append(x)
...     return y
...
>>> f(1)
[1]
>>> f(2)
[1, 2]
>>> f(3)
[1, 2, 3]
 
How is y the same as previous ?
I mean it's state still remains ?
 
Cabbage
 
It's exactly the same situation: y is set to an empty list when the function is defined, and each call to f does something to that same list each time.
 
7:15 AM
@d-coder only one object is created
 
Cool!
I understood.. int(), list() functions are evaluated at definition
literal like 0,1, etc.. are just literals..
 
@d-coder ?
 
Don't forget the difference between mutable and immutable.
 
@d-coder Because the default y object is effectively a local variable of the function. Also see what happens if you pass a parameter for y.
def f(x, y=[]):
    y.append(x)
    return y

print(f(1))
print(f(2))
print(f(3, ['a']))
print(f(4))
#output
[1]
[1, 2]
['a', 3]
[1, 2, 4]
 
def func(i=0):
    i+=1
    print(i)

func() # 1
func() # 1
func() # 1
 
7:19 AM
How do you guys know so much ? Yes. I have tried reading official docs but it kinda hurts my brain for a beginner like me
 
Implants.
 
I have create user-registration form something like this in django in forms.py: dpaste.com/04SE1ZJ how I can associate(foreignkey) with other model name "company" which is defined in models.py?
 
@d-coder By spending many hours playing with stuff in the shell & small test scripts until it sinks in.
 
@Ffisegydd Is this about mutability?
 
Yes. i+=1 create a new int object as it's immutable.
 
7:21 AM
but the default argument is still shared?
 
Yes
 
internally
cool
 
It's still the same object that is shared between the different functions.
 
Yes. Thanks for shedding some light guys!
 
It's just i+=1 has created a new int that the print uses.
 
7:22 AM
I thought I knew Python but it's not real!
 
Also,
 
Cameron quits
 
def f(y=[0]):
    y[0] += 1
    return y[0]

for _ in range(3):
    print(f())
print(f([7]))
for _ in range(3):
    print(f())
#output
1
2
3
8
4
5
6
 
@Ffisegydd btw, is this implementation specific or language specific?
 
Pass. Implementation I'd guess.
@Zero really? Nothing on BBC yet
 
Do you guys read through the official docs alone ? and understand it too ?
 
@khajvah It's language specific. An implementation that gave different results for the code Fizzy & I have posted would be broken.
 
Should I pass all form field into company model as but I guess that's not how I will be able to use only foreign key but all the fields of user model
?
 
"Fizzy FizzySon resigns as Dark Council PM after referendum seeking to invade Europe is unsuccessful. More news incoming."
 
7:30 AM
@d-coder I already knew quite a few other languages before I came to Python. I learned from the official docs, but I must admit I didn't understand various things the first time through. And as I said earlier, testing stuff helps when you're not sure what the docs are saying.
OTOH, it's possible to get an incorrect idea of how some Python feature works, and your tests can reinforce that wrong idea if you don't test properly. While it's important to run tests that demonstrate that your hypothesis is correct, the scientific method requires performing experiments designed to break your hypothesis.
 
I should read python specs
might be interesting
 
Some Python specs:
 
@Ffisegydd I'm shocked.. when I woke up and read the news.. I mean, WTF? :(
 
can i show contents from two views to same page in django rest
 
Pretty much everyone around me at work is sad or disgusted.
Of course we're all quite young, and this referendum has been split across age boundaries mostly.
 
7:39 AM
why FFisegydd
 
@sudheeshks I wasn't speaking to you, sorry.
 
@Ffisegydd it seems like only English wanted to leave: London area, Scotland and Ireland were against leaving
 
@Ffisegydd not to mention the different areas, I mean as you may know, the London-area for example voted otherwise..
 
@sudheeshks you can write a different view which inlcudes both
 
@sudheeshks you just asked that question, please don't repeat it needlessly.
@PeterVaro Makes sense, a lot of European people live in London, it's obviously very cosmopolitan.
@sudheeshks I'd suggest you read sopython.com/chatroom
 
7:43 AM
@sudheeshks Otherwise, it makes no sense to "show contents of two views in one". How is your data going to look like? {"view1":{}, "view2":{}}?
 
FFisegyd. i repeated because i got no reply. i thought it may have gone unnoticed
 
That doesn't excuse spamming the room, please don't do it. If no one chose to reply then that's their choice.
 
@Ffisegydd all we need now, is to Trump win the elections.. and I think at some point we've just entered into a parallel universe.. though I can't really tell you when exactly..
 
@PeterVaro Universe where all the memes are reality
 
Bank of England statement coming up next on the youtube link I posted above ...
 
7:59 AM
Well this was a bad start to the morning
 
I'm struggling to think positively at all at the moment
Someone tell me something good about leaving
 
where there any debates before votes?
 
It will be "interesting" to see the effect of Brexit on the stock markets. Over here: "Around $50 billion in shares is wiped off the Australian share market while the dollar tanks "
 
Found a good thing on Twitter - then I saw who wrote it :)
Ironically, #Brexit means *more* foreigners in the UK; tourism *to* Britain will grow as the pound is so cheap. #tryingtofindabrightside
 
8:04 AM
@RobertGrant You're thinking of buying a house, give it a few months for the market to crash :P
 
George Osborne reckons house prices would fall ... of course he thought that was a bad thing, and he's been wrong about everything his whole career, so ...
:-D
 
@Ffisegydd I am wondering about that
 
Cabbage!
 
@poke cbg
 
@RobertGrant heh
 
8:25 AM
cbg pythonians
I wanted to buy a house in the Oxfordshire a few years ago. Maybe I'll be able to, in a few years time
 
@RobertGrant glad it cheered someone up ;-) Having a pretty shitty morning having seen this result.
 
> An apartment in London will cost only 1 billion dollars
 
irony apart, this smells bad
 
@MartijnPieters yeah me too mate
Tweeted Farage; he won't understand it
 
so what were the arguments against staying?
 
8:32 AM
You can feel like a big fish if the pond is the same size as you
 
Boris just left his house with a heavy police escort to loud booing.
 
@nigel_farage if this parlous folly really happens and in years to come you wonder what on earth you were thinking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
 
Legend.
 
on the bright side, I might finally travel to England :3
 
8:48 AM
Well. That happened.
 
I blame Wales
 
I blame Robert Kilroy Silk
 
@RobertGrant I blame rural uneducated English pensioners.
 
Well, yeah
Anyone who's old and isn't establishing themselves can ride things out pretty easily
 
I blame Wales too.
 
8:52 AM
The only ones to blame : Us
 
@AndyK hey, I didn't have a vote.
 
Mind you, that being said it's the pensioners who are already paying the price in their pensions...
 
@AndyK the US?
 
Us as a collective
Us as a group of people
 
8:53 AM
@IntrepidBrit are they doing badly?
 
Some stocks are down 20%
 
@AndyK but I voted to remain!?
 
@Rob no chance. Political suicide.
 
Well my political career wasn't amounting to much anyway, so I thought that the voting remain would be ok
 
I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't push for single market though.
 
8:53 AM
@RobertGrant poll is the consequence that goes well before that
 
I don't know what that means
 
I'll try to explain better a bit later
timing is not perfect at the moment
 
I feel bad for one of my in-laws. I think 2/3 of his employees are from EU countries.
I can imagine there's going to be a lot of (pointless) emergency meetings today
 
Yeah we don't know enough about how it'll all work
 
I’ve yet to learn about an upside to the way this turned out..
 
8:57 AM
Housing market may crash.
 
I don't see exactly how, though, as people still need houses :)
In the short term, anyway
 
Shush! It may (hopefully) happen!
 
Pound will drop in value - increased UK manufacturing and a swift two finger salute to British banks?
There's an upside if you don't like banks and like British made stuff?
 
We definitely like British made stuff, that's why we never buy any of it
 

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