« first day (806 days earlier)      last day (2974 days later) » 

12:04 AM
@earl It's not a charset, it's a bitset! I know they're the same, but that means they have to serve the common purpose. And that's not what the documentation says about /case in parse. You're trying to make me mad before anything's even gone wrong. :-P
 
They're the same:
>> type? charset "abc"
== bitset!
 
Let me have my happy moment of parsing unicode.
 
By all means have it :)
I have a long-held grudge against the case-preserving stupidity.
We'll probably find out soon if this must be declared another instance.
 
@earl no problem, it's already a little nicer than A111.
 
@rgchris Build slave has been updated, and a fresh OSX binary built. So rebolsource OSX builds should now generally be 10.4+.
@rgchris Nicer because home/end work :) ?
 
12:16 AM
Yes, primarily!
Just need tab working and I'll no longer get tripped up : )
 
Tab for word completion as in R2?
 
Exactly—don't realise how much I use it until it isn't there.
 
Interesting. Pierre also complained about that recently, making me realise that Rebol's words are probably just too short so I hardly ever used completion for them. I liked to use it for files, though.
 
Yes, especially use for files. Serves two functions—laziness and avoiding typos.
 
Exactly. Well, a nice project in that direction would be to try and hook up libedit (a BSD-licensed readline clone/replacement). Should give us much better line (and history) editing in general, as well as fully customisable completion.
 
12:29 AM
Well, one nasty parse bug hopefully fixed, and I need to go to the 7-11 across the street and reward myself with some beer. Back in a moment.
This stuff may be frustrating, but it's less frustrating when you at least have the power to do something about it and get a new build that fixes it!
 
Actually, I find finally being able to fix all those nasties quite rewarding.
In fact, I think I almost experience decision fatigue: with so many paper cuts to smoothen, where to start?
 
I think you've got it right by going straight for process; tests, CI. The most important thing to fix is the process/presentation/standards/documentation so that more people can be unblocked in attacking things and so that more bugs don't get introduced than taken out.
 
Well, I wouldn't dare touch many of the more intricate parts otherwise.
 
12:46 AM
Ah, reward beer and reward sandwich. Hmm. Funny. I have this hazy reminder of when people paid me to debug all day. :-)
 
 
2 hours later…
2:47 AM
Yay, we have the first one down to static analysis!
(More verbosely: static code analysis managed to correctly identify a bug resulting in a crash due to dereference of a null pointer.)
 
@earl The first, but I'll bet not the last. :-)
So I was trying the excerpted unicode segment in R2 and I couldn't figure out why it wasn't working. Ran my test and I got a different pattern...anomalies at most of #{01} - #{20}, #{7F} and #{A0}...
I haven't really used R2 so I haven't really internalized PARSE/ALL, but even if your input is binary it will ignore certain bytes unless you say /ALL.
I remember hating /ALL from a few years ago, but only because people were talking about not having it in R3. And I said "yes, that sounds bad, nix that."
 
3:06 AM
Yes, fortunately /ALL is the default (for block parsing) in R3.
Ah, 17 lines of commit message for a 1-line fix. I think that also deserves a reward beer :)
 
@earl Yup. I'm going to reward myself with another for figuring out the PARSE/ALL thing. The more I drink, my criteria for deserving a reward drop. "Didn't spill beer on the keyboard? You deserve another beer!" :-)
 
Well, sounds just about right :)
 
I do not have at this moment a very clear estimate of how long it will take me to get Red running on some future-integrated build of R3 (there's going to be merges at some point, right?). But I do feel that there are a few distinct advantages if it did.
First of all, in terms of active Rebol codebases that stress the system, it's one of few.
 
You should certainly get in touch with "the Red community" (or at least Nenad).
Having Red run on R3 would be incredibly useful.
 
Well, I'll wait until I have it working and not crashing the r2 version. Right now the R3 one errors out, the r2 one runs to completion but generates a messed-up output that won't run.
I'm starting with getting the R3 to run to completion and then working backward from there.
 
3:17 AM
I'm sure Nenad (DocKimbel) would be glad to help along.
 
Well, I may get it to a point and say "um, there's this one part that isn't working" but at the moment it is kind of my introduction to the whole thing, so I can talk about what's going on reasonably.
A bit of a ways to go with that, and I'd like to see the fixes that are needed in...so far there's clear map and the casing on parse. We also know that case-sensitivity in maps has to have some kind of story; I favor a second index of some kind on the first use of /case. That should be in line with the Rebol philosophy. Probably other things.
 
Wait, R2 differs in the PARSE/case behaviour?
 
R2 can parse binaries without case-insensitive compares on bytes. R3 can't without that fix I just pull requested.
 
Indeed!
You should definitely mention that in the pull request, that is an extremly strong indication that R3's behaviour should really be considered a bug.
 
I did mention it. I think the case for bug is rather solid.
 
3:25 AM
Don't see a reference to R2's behaviour in the pull request.
In any case, I think that may not be the fix that is wanted, because it also changes behaviour for parse w/o /case + bitsets.
 
Well, I meant mentioning the fact that binary data cannot be parsed as case-insensitive, ever was mentioned.
 
But R2 differing solidifies the point that parse/case + bitset actually is a bug.
The alternate fix is even simpler: always pass FALSE to Check_Bit at this point.
Leaves bitsets case-sensitive even without /case, just as it is now. But fixes parse/case behaviour to also be case-sensitive for bitsets.
 
Well, what would that do in my AB example? Shouldn't you be able to have a case-insensitive bitset?
(If that bitset represents characters.)
 
Well, you are not able to have that at the moment.
The point really is mostly about compatibility (which we can mostly ignore in this particular case) and user expectations.
 
I've hoped, and continued to hope, that compatibility can be put on a low priority scale relative to doing the sensible thing.
 
3:30 AM
(Just to be clear: I would vastly prefer the more consistent behaviour achieved by your current fix.)
In R2 you could write charset [#"a" - #"z"] and have it only match a-z even when doing case-insensitive parsing without /case. This was probably deemed to match user expectations more closely: if they are already spelling out the valid characters explicitly, why meddle?
 
In fact, I feel the sooner an "R3-Backward" is made, the better. If people have R2 or older R3 codebases and really don't feel like fixing function and funct then give them something to load to make R3 act like they expect.
 
Ignore backwards compatibility in this case, R3's parse is already incompatibly deviating from R2 a lot.
(And please don't try to sidetrack me with your function argument :)
 
If orthogonality favors letting go of to-integer and to-string and rather teaching people the more general to integer! and to string!, I feel like the decision should be open.
All options should be open now, we're getting the first chance to look at things from the inside and the time window may be short...but I don't feel like it's a very good prize to be told "you were given a spec from on high from an invisible codebase" then "now the codebase is public but the spec was laid out, go finish it"
 
Point is, that this particular behaviour of parse with charsets may be by design.
 
I look at this current phase of build farms and bugfixing as the educational "well-it-would have-to-be-done-anyway" work, something to do while thinking is done, but it's not intended of a sign of me thinking "it's perfect how it is, just needs an exclamation point here and there..."
Well, if a bitset! can represent a collection of char!, and if one can ever test for membership in such a set in a case-insensitive way, then I don't see why PARSE without /CASE wouldn't make use of that.
 
3:38 AM
The simple "solution" in any way is: don't mention this in the pull at all, hope that no one thinks too hard about it before it gets merged, and PARSE will be more consistent that way :)
You can write charset [#"A" #"b"] as charset "ab" by the way.
 
Again, it seems to be case sensitive, so you mean charset "Ab"...?
 
Ahem, of course. Sorry for the confusion.
 
I think that Rebol's weird choice to default to case-insensitivity is certainly a bit of a thorn in the side of the typical programmer, who prefers canonization and only answers to case-sensitivity
 
Certainly a bit of a world view.
 
But Rebol bucks a lot of trends, choosing spaces and a kind of language instinct a la X-bar theory to try and excuse the fact that we often are supposed to "just know" or "just learn" the arity of functions and parse it out in our heads.
 
3:45 AM
Well, in my world view, case is not a "trend" to buck.
 
Hmmm...well, then why did you capitalize "Well"? :-)
 
Huh?
 
i meant to say that we are speaking of a word equivalence specified by case. if you believe it, then why use uppercase and lowercase together when writing in chat? isn't a word most properly given a set form?
 
Our writing has the concept of case.
I think ignoring that in a language that is expressed in the same form of writing is just plain stupid.
 
Rebol tries, in its way, to impedance match human writing to computer programs. With similar fluidity, ambiguity, and resulting madness. But that's--to me--part of what makes it interesting.
 
3:50 AM
Well, to me it just fails at this pretence that case does not exist.
 
I guess I feel that defaulting to case insensitivity is part of that fluid madness. To where you choose the case that makes your sentence look pretty.
 
Only that you don't do that in natural language.
And nobody does this to the full extent in computer language either.
(At least I haven't come across a piece of Rebol that would just use case for purely aesthetic purpose.)
We also know, that adhering to a common code style increases efficiency in code comprehension among programming teams.
 
I don't think Rebol users have really "explored the space" yet. There's so much code that doesn't invent dialects...just using the core, uncommented...long tracts of code only one person could ever maintain.
I think that when dialects catch on (they never particularly did), then people will play with case more. [Send mail to (xxx)] might look better than [send mail to (xxx)]
Charles Simonyi (the inventor of Hungarian Notation) had Hungarian Notation as his Ph.D. thesis. The goal was that two programmers solving the same problem in two different rooms could write the exact same code, down to the naming of the variables.
His idea was that if they would both write the same code (under convention, if separate) then that was desirable, as they would be able to read and comprehend each other's code.
Of course, a lot of people missed the point, and made a lot of bad APIs...but...oh well.
 
chat.so is getting flaky for me (are we getting rate-limited :), so I'll leave for now.
Trying to have a nice discussion such as this is unfortunately rather annoying to me when the medium keeps timing out.
 
@earl No problems with timeouts here. :-/ Sorry to hear, I will check in with you later. I did see that it uses a polling approach... there are some more modern ways
 
4:03 AM
@HostileFork I don't think this conflicts at all with my point. I would well encourage such experimentation, but I think making the core language and all related to it case-insensitive (case-preserving, really) by default is the wrong approach to that.
 
@earl It should definitely be analyzed in a rigorous way, and if it makes a point that point should be laid out as a guiding philosophy that does not seem random or arbitrary.
It's kind of like with the desire to make "first" consistent with "pick series 1". Makes sense given current cultural norms. But I hate that the ground floor of a building is "1" and not "0". So if Rebol is truly revolutionary, it might push zeroth and pick series 0 for getting the item at the beginning. It all depends on where you start in terms of where you end up...
The first floor of a building would then be the level above the one you are standing on--ground level. "What's the first element of [a b c]?" "Well, that would be b of course. It's the first element after the zeroth...which is a."
 
(Come to Europe, then, our first floor generally is above ground :)
 
Ah, if I could I would. Find me a company that offers work visas, or a German girl who wants a mail-order programmer husband, then we'll talk... :-)
 
Should both be quite achievable :)
 
Have C++, will travel.
 
 
9 hours later…
1:34 PM
0
Q: How to convert a binary! to a char! in Rebol 3?

HostileForkIt's easy to convert a char to a binary: >> c: #"^(52)" == #"R" >> type? c == char! >> b: to-binary c == #{52} But what if I want to go the other way? >> c: to-char b ** Script Error: Invalid argument: #{52} ** Where: to-char ** Near: to char! :value I'd like to co...

 
 
6 hours later…
7:53 PM
After much gnashing of teeth, the r2 variant of Red now builds the unicode Hello, World example correctly again. The r3 variant slogs along and gets an error before it gets to red/system, but I am more optimistic than I was yesterday.
@earl Is the clear map fix still looking "easy"?
 
 
1 hour later…
8:58 PM
Sigh. Okay, as a follow-on to last night... do you mean to tell me that Rebol 2 and Rebol 3 do indexing differently for values less than one?
Crimony.
I am just going to have to disagree. The zeroth element of [a b c] is a. The first element of [a b c] is b. As wacky as Rebol is, this would have been a drop in the bucket. Dijkstra explained why zero-based indexing is correct, it shouldn't even be a debate. This unnatural fear of zero...
 
@HostileFork Doable. Today or tomorrow, most likely.
@HostileFork This whole debate was why Ladislav and I started to write the "Mathematical model of Rebol Series" document, btw.
R2 is just plain stupid, in this regard.
 
9:14 PM
I only see one instance of pc/-1 in Red, and first back pc is compatible. Still retraining to zeroth would be ideal, but I don't run the world. If I did then the circular constant would be 6.28...
 

« first day (806 days earlier)      last day (2974 days later) »