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12:30 AM
@rgchris that's odd. It worked for me this morning sans error.
 
1:07 AM
@rgchris I do feel I've engaged new developments. I guess my perception may overplay my actual participation => well, I'm not "complaining" per se either, I was just putting the idea out there, that given the resources available we might want to pare it to 2 standards to support instead of 3.
So really a fairly mechanical idea, to expire R3-Alpha
@rgchris That you are tending to the port model at all is great, and it's timely.
I have looked at the design of <r3-legacy> just as a proof of concept, to ask if usermode constructs can be used to bend Ren-C to act in a compatible way with old code. With things like "hard-quoting variadics" as well as all the nice function compositions, there are only a few real defeats of that... such as indexing conventions when it comes to paths.
With #tight parameters we've let @MarkI's "choice of expressiveness" win out over trying to dictate a "simple but incomplete" model.
 
1:36 AM
Virtual binding remains the biggest curveball, and its implications are things like definitional BREAK and CONTINUE, and I see these as being basically non-negotiable things on the horizon.
But even more importantly is the implications on what it means to have a module system that is actually "legitimately" usermode, e.g. someone could write a slightly different module system if they wished and the changes would make sense, as opposed to today's circuitous "there's code in the usermode module system but it is hinged on the idea of calling a few primitives that can only implement that idea"
@MarkI have you put any more thought into / being SLASH! and the evaluator hardcoding what it does, and then disavowing / in words?
SLASH! again being free for dialects, but // not. We don't have to pair this decision with that being a comment mark, but it opens the floor to it, at some point.
 
1:51 AM
@HostileFork Can I informally suggest then that we pick some criteria for a release candidate and do that—even if it's a commit from the recent past? At least do the big three, or at a stretch match the slate on offer on rebolsource.net?
2
Aren't there ways to host binaries on GitHub itself?
 
@rgchris Well, let's not make it a version from the past. Let's do it going forward, and as I said, we need to put together a stable branch anyway.
 
@rgchris That's Earl's site .. I dunno if anyone else has access
 
@GrahamChiu GitHub?
We can do some builds, one thing that has bothered me is I am not happy with the core executable size
 
@GrahamChiu We're past that. I just mean a binary dump of the same platforms that R3A is available on.
 
Especially for the emscripten builds, it's too big, so I want us to have all the optional components (BMP and GIF decoding for instance) optional.
 
2:00 AM
Rebol2 used to be 380Kb or so
 
When I went through doing that, as I mentioned, Ren-C did get down to about 600K
But I would like to be more aggressive than that and find what's taking up the space
Basically, if we're going to do binary drops, I want to be peer to rebolsource.net
A little larger is ok, 20% or so
 
Is rebol.info running on digitalocean or ec2 these days?
 
(Note: still running hostilefork.com on digitalocean, satisfied customer.)
Good uptime, cheap, no real problems to speak of.
 
2:18 AM
@GrahamChiu Also Digital Ocean.
Or digitalocean.
 
2:57 AM
Linode have just released a new plan with 1GB ram for only $5 per month linode.com/pricing
Digital ocean have been great though. I even paid the $1 extra a month for automated backups. That said the poor bot isn't doing much without tryrebol being online now
 
3:13 AM
@johnk But it also hosts rebol.info does it not?
 
 
8 hours later…
10:54 AM
@HostileFork I've not played much with ren-c, but if it can be made to run a bit similar to rebol3 (or 2) with legacy switches (meaning I've yet to try those), I'm all up for it
It's a bit too different now so I have a hard time trying to work with the new ways
 
@GrahamChiu yes
 
For example, being immutable by default, append doesn't work as I expect.. and I'm left wondering how to proceed
The trello is very helpful tho
Filtered by important
Either way, having readily available builds for red helped me get up and started quickly
 
 
4 hours later…
2:36 PM
@HostileFork hello! How 'launch is suposed to work in Ren/C?
 
 
2 hours later…
4:49 PM
@GeekyI Red is doing a good job in the packaging area, and I think that ultimately is a big part of the appeal. But it's also something someone else can do. I'm a very hard-core bit twiddler, that's what I like doing--I do not like making webpages very much.
I already have to run a few and I don't need to add "Rebol build farm" to my list of responsibilities.
I'm busy solving actual design flaws in the language, which DocKimbel isn't all that concerned about.
 
Or you can say doc is working hard :p
 
Well there's the phrase "work smarter, not harder"
 
But you're right. It's better if someone else can do it
 
How many hours you spend doesn't necessarily indicate effectiveness. But in any case, his goal is to paint the picture, so people know you can--even today--have a small binary that pulls off more than you think.
Anyway, me worrying about build farms and what not, I think Red covers that base well enough. Those who care and are inspired by that can be.
Start with Red, realize the complete lack of concern over the foundations of the language, then come see me.
He's a filter.
Makes my life easier to have the people who don't realize what's wrong bounce around talking to him and his crew
I have more time because of it.
@GeekyI I hope, that you realize after getting unsatisfactory answers, even at the simplistic level of my-if: func [condition branch] [either condition [do branch] [none]] or whatever, when you see them flail and fail... like "why do returns in my branch not work", you realize that what I'm doing is much deeper.
 
We are talking two totally different targets. Doc has a product in mind. And a company, and a potential business. For that, you need money, devs, product, docs, websites, marketing, community.
 
4:56 PM
The build farm I think is the lesser problem than deciding how to manage a stable branch and establishing criteria for release candidates.
Or just the first part.
 
A build farm is not strictly necessary.. even a single binary is good enough
 
@pekr Well, sure, and that's what I said. It's kind of my answer. I'm ok being the research wing.
 
@HostileFork - if you are doing a research project, then everything is absolutly fine. But if you want more followers, not everybody is skilled enough to look somewhere, compile, create his own binaries, etc.
 
It would have been nice if it were a more friendly engagement, but, this is what happened. Perhaps for the best.
 
Yes, I think I can understand what you mean ....
 
4:58 PM
It's applicable research. If they see ideas they like, they can take them.
Nothing stopping them. Apache license and what not.
@GeekyI Well, I'm going to get in touch with earl when I feel like I have something to show him
The last "big" breakthrough was specific binding, and it has worked well.
 
@HostileFork Thanks for all your research effort :) really appreciate it
7
 
Variadics influenced the #tight concept, and now, I have to flesh it out
I want backwards quoting variadics, and to sort of know the part where that fails.
Obviously i-quote-my-argument i-quote-my-left-hand-side has to have a resolution
The prefix operator wins.
@GeekyI Well glad you like it, but I really think someone has to speak up for the question of "if you're going to do this 'definitional scoping' then you have to actually solve the problem"
Not wave your hands and write a bunch of GUI cross platform code that is far beyond the scale of the number of lines of code you have dev cycles to get right.
And maybe you'll write a garbage collector, someday. :-/
DocKimbel struck me as smarter than this.
 
The research is important, the renovation of the api is important, even just the time has been important. Atronix adoption is significant. Just need to get the binary into more sticky paws...
 
@rgchris Having a > 80 person company as an adopter, is a valuable thing.
But I still would like to see them pitch in a little more. Shixin has too much responsibility for one person.
 
Perhaps, but I don't much fancy pinning my hopes on any one company. Been there before.
 
5:08 PM
@rgchris If you are still "in" and speaking up for stability, why don't you make that move to start getting what you want to not break into the tests/
We don't commit unless that all passes.
That includes @Brett's tests that parse the code and complain if there's whitespace at the end of lines, and such.
When I talk about how much more serious things are now--in my opinion--than R3-Alpha--I'm not kidding. Might seem quiet, but quietly deeper.
 
@HostileFork Have been working on it but am stretched as it is. It's not just that tests pass though, it's allowing the room for research and experimentation while providing a conservative base to build an ecosystem around in the meantime.
I'm not trying to put this on you, I'm just not sure who else is qualified to make that delineation.
 
@rgchris Well, there was a lot of reactionary stuff in the early days about how much people thought code would break, and I think that it was exaggerated. Today's Ren-C is largely compatible with Rebol2 unless there's a good reason not to be.
The return value conventions matching parameter conventions is a thought experiment.
I'm asking if people think it's worth it or not. If you don't think it's a good idea, we can scrap it.
But PROC and PROCEDURE to me, are good ideas
The theme is "modify with confidence". We can now do things, whatever we want, it's why I only worry about "heavy" stuff like virtual binding
e.g. I worry mostly about things I don't know how they would work, or if they can work.
 
I'm not resisting the ideas, it's just having to manage them over a broad codebase is hard. I'm still moving my codebase from Rebol 2 and constantly come up with challenges, add to that changes from the Rebol 3 that I'd started to migrate to, and argh!!! And that's before considering who else is able to test.
 
5:26 PM
@rgchris And, if you put your files as part of the tests, and I'd keep it up to date for you...
I wouldn't make a commit if it broke your code, unless I updated your code.
 
I still have to port half my code!
 
Well, why not it be a "we" thing and not an "I" thing.
There may be some mistakes, I'm totally ready to consider that, so if you're having trouble then the trouble itself is a thought point.
Who asks more questions than I do?
 
I'm just not convinced that's the problem—rather it's lacking a common base that even if there are a few of us using Ren-C, we're not on the same page.
As an example, Graham starts a new project, folds in AltJSON but it doesn't work against the current build. Do you fix AltJSON or revert to a build that it does work with? Which build? And what if I update AltJSON and it stops working with a build that someone else has been relying on.
I go back to my three points—as comparatively atrocious as R3A is, you can download it quickly, know the quirks, know that some modules are going to work and that other folk are going to be able to use and test code that you write for it.
My Rebol 3 scripts work against it and anyone can use them just with an R3A binary (I assume).
 
5:54 PM
@rgchris :-/
There is a saying, I think, about graven images which circulates in religious groups.
Sure--an unmoving thing of no particular quality doesn't change, by definition.
 
A rolling stone gathers no moss...
 
If you set up a test suite, and if we define success as "that thing runs", and that is what you use to do your work, I will not break it.
You just didn't do that.
And I don't really see Carl (or Nenad) making comparable offers.
So, I think judging the question of R3-Alpha expiry, is not being fair.
 
Here's a poor man's solution. On a given day—the 15th of every third month—we take a snapshot of Ren-C, upload the binaries to rebol.info then we have a new standard.
 
@rgchris Too poor for my tastes. Why can't we be purposeful about it?
 
May have warts? Sure. But I can say—this works against the 3/15/2017 build.
 
5:58 PM
Why don't we go through a few line items and commit to a few things.
If I thought that way, then I'd be fine with R3-Alpha or Rebol2
I don't think that way, I'm trying to solve a problem.
So if we're going to snapshot, let's snapshot something that ticks off some boxes and makes some commitments
We had a big one recently. #tight
That basically said, we embrace the historical precedence for infix operators.
While still allowing other constructs, which get their argument from the left.
And that was what I would call a "big decision"
e.g. affects everyone who writes code.
 
Let's run with that then. As I said, the above is a poor man's solution, but it'd be enough for me to forget R3A.
 
Okay, well, you're just asking me to make a snapshot
 
Sure.
 
I'm saying "not today just because you said to"
e.g. I don't think that's helpful
We have to make a master/development branch split
e.g. we have to pin down your "snapshot" in a way where, even if development goes off on a tangent, bug fixes if they are bad bugs are still patched into master.
I feel like, with Atronix Ren-C adoption, that's where we have to do this.
So the pressure is already on, whether we've had a specific conversation about it yet or not.
 
Could be, but they're not doing it.
 
6:04 PM
Well, maybe you're saying we need to do it.
 
In my opinion.
 
And, as I've said, I'd kind of like it if there was a bit of corporate support, in the build farm area.
Which seems like an easily compartmentalized, fixed-cost, idea.
They need it, why not get some PR and, if we might, contract earl to come back and do it.
If he doesn't hate us or something :-/
@rgchris Do you know why airplanes are made out of aluminum?
 
Relatively lightweight, doesn't rust.
 
@rgchris But what about collisions.
@rgchris And this is why you should port your code to Ren-C.
 
Generally speaking I do. It's just that it stops working when things change.
 
6:11 PM
@rgchris Well, I want all those bits... the etsy, s3, etc, running and I would welcome them being added to tests
 
We need snapshots.
 
@rgchris I feel like earl has it all lined up, he just wandered off.
Rather than us trying to be earl, I was thinking, maybe we bring him back.
He's pretty good at what he does.
 
With the assumption that Atronix are not going to do it, and Earl has moved on, what do we need to do? (other than recall Earl)
 
So why do it more poorly, vs. giving him a good reason to return?
 
Build farm aside.
 
6:14 PM
@rgchris Well, I think, we should at least try and bring him back before just rolling over and giving up.
Like, at least ask.
 
Yep. Agreed.
 
I kind of feel like I don't want to bug him until I've solved the core CS problems, e.g. virtual binding
At which point I'd be like "hey this is real, I solved it, come back there's a reason" - "it's not just a turing tarpit"
I don't ask people to waste their life on something just because I'm too dumb to stop doing it. I'd like to have some justification.
 
In that case, can we not produce one interim snapshot?
 
@rgchris If you want a snapshot, we should get a few users together--you and brett and graham and shixin and me--and make sure that snapshot suits our purposes. There's no point in that snapshot otherwise.
 
I'd do it right now—figure out how to improvise build environments, but as you imply, it'd be an arbitrary point to pick this very minute.
@HostileFork Sounds good.
 
6:17 PM
And that means you guys have to actually answer my questions. You don't always respond to the pings when I'm asking semi-cataclysmic things.
Anyway, we do have a few line items to go over and sign off on.
#tight is actually very big.
You don't write C evaluator code, but I do, and that's huge.
Like, literally resonates throughout everything.
People do realize that what I do is (usually) a very highly paid specialized skill.
It took a long time to get this good. And this is what I do with that. :-/
 
It's a question that's abstract without examples. Can be hard to answer. I'm not sure how it relates to things I've done, parts that might be in my codebase.
 
Anyway, so when I say something about my concerns like "I'm not sure if I can get virtual binding to work" you're supposed to say "oh, well, that must likely be something not irrelevant."
@rgchris Here's how you prove you're in. Submit your code into %tests
@GrahamChiu will put in his Alexa thing, Shixin will throw in a few things, @Brett actually kind of put his code in the tests already because they are the tests.
 
Ok, I'll go through my published scripts and try and write some tests around them.
 
@rgchris Point just being, if your concern is getting your work done day to day (well obviously if that's your M.O. why are you here)...but if your concern is thinking that a new commit of Ren-C will break your work, the best way for that to not be the case is have your work be in the tests.
Again, in the "things I don't think people appreciate" so well, Ren-C is incredibly rigorous. It keeps track of every memory allocation (for quota), and if it quits and the numbers don't balance to zero, it tells you. That's not even a valgrind thing or an address sanitizer thing, it really knows.
Across the board, it has alarms everywhere.
If you breathe on it, it breaks, and that's good.
 
My main concern is that my code is in a closed ecosystem. If no-one else uses it, then it's always likely to be stunted. I'm aware of the benefits of moving to Ren-C, but it's not the only consideration.
Ren-C as-is is limited to those who have committed to building it.
 
6:46 PM
@rgchris Hard to build, is it?
If so, please help make it easier.
I would put it in contrast to other projects, e.g. why don't you build Chrome?
Then get back to me about how hard Ren-C is to build.
Sorry to be kind of snippy this morning.
 
7:15 PM
make -f makefile.boot it's nearly the easiest build on a linux system of any project.
Doesn't use GNU autoconf or Cmake or anything. It's mind-numbingly simplistic.
 
7:53 PM
@HostileFork Because you just dl the version for your system and run that? (Are the Chrome sources available?) True, even I could build Ren-C, but I would have preferred a simple program download.
Requiring to build before use will remind most ppl of endless impossible builds they faced in the past with all horrible dependencies missing, pulling up a big mental block to overcome.
I never understood why this self building is required by many projects, when all serious programs we use are precompiled programs that just work after download. Is it so hard to upload a prebuild version ;-)
 
@HostileFork No, not once you have your dependencies in place. (which I think if I were to start over, it'd only be XCode, and —ironically—Rebol 3 Alpha or earlier Ren-C build)
Also tricky too if you're using the binary to deploy software on different platforms.
Git I suppose makes things easier, and if you're on Mac you'd likely want Homebrew to install that, though obviously neither is a requirement.
 
 
2 hours later…
10:15 PM
Can we decide what builds we need, and see if it can be done semi automatically
 
10:30 PM
I have a Windows VM running on EC 2 all the time. I guess I could install mingw32, download the zip file each night and build. And then push to a S3 location.
And then delete the zip and all its files.
The Linux build might be a bit harder for me.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:35 PM
I can build for Linux and Android
And build .deb packages also -- maybe we can decide a minimal set of libs/module we want to be packaged together.
 
11:58 PM
posted on February 27, 2017 by OneArb

Doing a search on 'Rebol alt key' I get on https://www.startpage.com http://rebolforum.com/index.cgi?f=printtopic&topicnumber=38&archiveflag=new However topicnumber 38 is now something else and content will keep changing. Is it worth generating a page listing posts including 'New topic' string in the URL robot.txt? If yes, remove SE indexing from the main page in robot.txt Disallow

 

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