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12:46 AM
@HostileFork Oh, thank you so much!! Have a good travel!
 
1:09 AM
@giuliolunati I should be settled in one place for a little bit now; have some Rebol and non-Rebol stuff to do. But now is a good time to start filing other blocking issues!
 
 
2 hours later…
3:22 AM
@MarkI I think I have hardened my heart and my stance on the matters such for why it's okay for blk: [] and first blk to come back with a void, while it's not okay for blk/1 to come back with a void, but it's okay for :blk/1 to come back with a void. There is a reasoning to it. And @johnk, I think the reasoning implies that TAKE [] should be an error, with you needing to do something like TAKE/OPT [] to get the void.
@RebolBot
blk: reduce [:append]
blk/1 [a b c] 'd
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [a b c d]
 
@RebolBot
blk: reduce [:append]
first blk [a b c] 'd
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== d
 
This is the difference. We know first blk isn't "live"; the presence or absence of a value won't affect a dispatch. But when you talk about blk/1, you may be talking about a dispatch and you need to know if it fails.
first blk is being piped to some destination or it's a no-op; it's kind of your business whether you got it to that destination and whether it worked out. But blk/1 may not be a no-op regardless of destination. So that's where I see a difference.
 
4:16 AM
posted on September 30, 2016 by peterwawood

The first complete Red Enhancement Proposal has been submitted by Gregg Irwin. It is REP 0101 - For Loop. If you have any comments or suggestions relating to the proposal, please make them via the Red Mailing List/Group on in the Red Gitter Channel. Regards Peter

 
Hmmm. for [ [i: 1] [i <= 1000] [i: i + i] ] [print i]... I think Ren-C's BAR! offers a nicer look. for [i: 1 | i <= 1000 | i: i + 1] [print i] if you're going to go that way.
(not weighing in completely on the matter, just not caring much for the three blocks in a block dialecting on immediate impression...)
I hadn't really thought of "positional BAR!" but it's a legitimate dialecting application. People dialect SET-WORD! and TAG!, why not decide position matters. If you use BAR! for the common case it might make you have to play a little for separation if you want to do something weird... for [(i: 1) (j: 2) | (i <= 1000) (j <= 2000) | (i: i + 1) (j: j + 2)] [...] but you can also omit the parentheses and it would still work if you were using BAR! to separate.
 
 
1 hour later…
5:35 AM
how is BAR! represented in the lower layers? Is it a real datatype?
... and doesn't it conflict with its meaning of OR in dialects?
 
@pekr BAR! is a real lexical datatype, yes. It does not interfere with the use of the symbol in things like a|b|c in that it really has to be | spaced. I don't know if that's a good idea or not, but there are many other cases of Rebol making this kind of distinction (think of /)
It cannot be defined in the "DO dialect" (pardon my loose language for that) as anything besides itself, just as a SET-WORD! cannot, or a GET-WORD! cannot, etc.
It acts as what I have labeled an "expression barrier" in the DO dialect, it cannot be taken as a literal parameter to anything. It's like hitting an end block or end paren.
 
but you can have a | b | c spaced too. How would you produce parse rule, using is as an OR, vs the visual spacer?
 
In PARSE the BAR! is recognized as an element, like SET-WORD! or what-not, it's dialected.
 
so it works only in terms of DO dialect, and not in PARSE?
 
Again, yes, it's a unique datatype. This actually in a minor way contributes to performance, I don't think that's so relevant.
You cannot override the meaning of | in "DO", just as you cannot override SET-WORD!
But in your own dialect, you can do whatever you wish. It's a datatype.
This is why it is called BAR! and not, say, BARRIER! for example.
I think it is a success story, generally, because I think Rebol needed this thing...and it was hard for me to give up the idea that it would be a "barrier" in parse, e.g. a 'comma' or visual separator, instead an "OR" rule.
But when I realized these concepts were not at odds it was a bit like realizing a SET-WORD! could be dialected, or a TAG! could be dialected.
So, I thought "ok, in PARSE, if you need to break up your rules, you use BLOCK! because that's the dialect, and BAR! means what it means there."
 
5:44 AM
ok, understand ...
 
You have to use it a bit to like it. A few people have experience with it, but there aren't a whole lot of day-to-day Ren-C users. But I am more confident about it than other things.
@rgchris seems warmer to | than to _.
And I am more confident of the former as well, but I think it just might be a matter of time and perception for the latter.
_ has typographic problems, especially in URL bars where it's invisible (hence a usual preference for dash, also preferred in Rebol). It is dodgy in fonts and a bit weak in general, e.g. might disappear in the URL bar of your browser into the textedit box. Whereas you can do something like all [ a + b | c + d ] and it's solid.
 
 
2 hours later…
7:34 AM
I like the barred version of for better than the blocked one. But I have no need for for. It is an ugly thing and I would hate it when I finally can get a Rebol/Red job in the end that the code I have to work on is for filled ugly. And only to please the 'for addicted C and Java guys that will come in and clutter and go the way of complexity anyway. And either will be replaced by a if/then/else. So if the 'for implementation can wait until after Red 2.0 release I would not mind at all.
 
@iArnold You changed your icon, and the mouth is very small, it's uncanny. Maybe even more intimidating than the fork's eyebrows. :-) But the precedent in Lisp is for the loop dialect, as pointed out a while ago by @JacobGood1.
I think that FOR isn't a particularly good word in a language priding itself on words, when picking a dialect that is loop based. One does not want Lisp to seem more literate out of the box.
 
If my mouth would be any bigger I would indeed lisp. ;-)
 
But Gregg has good ideas in general; it's good they are making a proposal process.
But Red is making mistakes left and right, e.g. (x: 1) (for-each x [4 5 6] [print x]) (print x) and saying for efficiency's sake that should print "4 5 6 6".
 
If the idea is to get a broader or easier adaptation in the field I think that is not the right way to do it.
 
It should be 4 5 6 1. "words in contexts"
 
7:42 AM
if you use foreach, I agree on
4
5
6
1
yes.
 
I propose x: 1 | for-each 'x [4 5 6] [print x] | print x to get 4 5 6 6.
Or maybe for-each :x but I kind of prefer the lit-word!
Ren-C has what's called specific binding to dodge the copy, and it's technically sophisticated, although it hasn't quite finessed FOR-EACH yet. But it's close.
 
I can live with Reds 4 5 6 6, because you should use not reuse your vars, the bugs you create are your penalty for doing this. :-)
 
I think that Rebol's dynamic is words in context; to accept you build small virtual worlds in each function or what-not, and that's the name of the game.
Not that I am super happy about parse/case when there's a CASE or set/any when there's an ANY as a big function, it gets confusing, yet at the same time I think the balance in these matters is part of the "game" of it.
Anyway, it's a mistake to emulate JavaScript's VAR semantics as a default. Step backwards for Rebol semantics.
An avoidable one: if you need efficiency just use lit-word! or set-word! to say so in the control variables.
But also, the efficiency can be finessed...sort of. I've got a variant of how recursions use identities that could theoretically be applied to FOR-EACH or other binding constructs as well.
It's not quite as turnkey and harmonious as recursion... but not as bad as today's copy-and-rebind
 
8:07 AM
x: 1020 | y: 0304 | for-each ['x 'y] [1 2 3 4] [print x | print y] | print x | print y => 1 2 3 4 3 4
Funny for me to be arguing to keep history compatible, and such, but I don't see why this "optimized" mode where the enclosing values are overwritten can't be dialected.
 
 
5 hours later…
12:58 PM
@HostileFork Will a RenCBot someday make an appearance in this chat room? To compare and contrast against RebolBot's always timely responses? Yesterday, it would have been very useful.
 
1:15 PM
Oct 8 '15 at 4:39, by johnk
@HostileFork FYI the ren-c bots are stable so far with no discernable memory leaks
@DaviddenHaring ^-- RebolBot itself ran on a Ren-C build as of October 2015, but it would be unsafe to have the bot run any arbitrary request itself. The requests are outsourced to http://tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl/ which covers things like stopping the request from deleting files or tying things up with infinite loops etc. That service is not likely to add support for a nightly Ren-C build or anything like it.
It wouldn't necessarily be that difficult to set up such a service in this day and age; I think sandboxing and killing rogue processes and such is more turnkey than it was years ago. But it's not my area of expertise.
There's a sort of implicit sandboxing you get from running the JavaScript build, which could be an option. @giuliolunati might have ideas about a service based on that.
 
 
6 hours later…
7:51 PM
@HostileFork Why not? Have you asked Kaj?
 
8:06 PM
It would be great if Kaj could add that as an option. He already has other, more esoteric choices like Boron on there.
 

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