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2:16 AM
If we're going to load host services from a dll ( ? dynamic ), will there be a potential dll hell problem in future?
 
 
5 hours later…
6:56 AM
@GrahamChiu This does make an interesting idea about tcc being part of the tool, and being able to snapshot both the Rebol interface and the C source as part of the same version in GitHub, and being able to pull both down together as per node package manager (npm) but having a very small footprint where only the exe is required.
It's good you reminded me of tcc, because sort of what's the point of having done things in the way it's done if it's not used. We had kind of reset the expectation from "builds on really old Amigas" to "builds with a compiler whose footprint is very small, small enough perhaps to include it" a while ago and yet doing something about it lost momentum.
 
 
1 hour later…
8:05 AM
@rgchris You didn't register an opinion on $true and $false as literals as opposed to #[true] and #[false]. I think it strikes a reasonable balance. For those who thinks money should "own" dollar sign completely, I think that's awfully greedy of money (but money often is) ... given all the other cross-claims on symbols that seems like a fairly harmless one for a fairly important point.
Then we have $true and $false for LOGIC! _ for BLANK! (none), and | for BAR!.
 
0
Q: REBOL layout: How to create layout words automatically - word has no context?

jjr_Using the REBOL/View 2.7.8 Core, I would like to prepare a view layout beforehand by automatically assigning words to various layout items, as in the following example. Instead of prepared-view: [across cb1: check label "Checkbox 1" cb2: check ...

 
8:51 AM
1
A: REBOL layout: How to create layout words automatically - word has no context?

Graham Chiubind prepared-view2 'view view layout prepared-view2 creates the correct bindings. And here's another way to dynamically create layouts >> l: [ across ] == [across] >> append l to-set-word 'check == [across check:] >> append l 'check == [across check: check] >> append l "test" == [across ch...

1
A: REBOL layout: How to create layout words automatically - word has no context?

HostileForkWhen you use TO-BLOCK to convert a string to a block, that's a low-level operation that doesn't go through the "ordinary" binding to "default" contexts. All words will be unbound: >> x: 10 == 10 >> code: to-block "print [x]" == [print [x]] >> do code ** Script Error: print word has no c...

 
@jjr_ sorry, not our rulz, but you do need to ask another question or get more upvotes to be able to chat here :(
anyway, @HostileFork and I have got you part of the way there
 
@jjr_ In the meantime, you can set your avatar to some square image. See also Definitional Scoping in Rebol and Red and Rebol vs. Lisp Macros
 
9:13 AM
Function Changes on Rebol3 Porting Guide ("Ren-C" branch)
# Rebol2, R3-Alpha foo: func [:a [unset!]] [ if unset? :a ["special allowance"] ] >> do [foo] "special allowance" # Ren-C foo: func [:a [<opt> any-value!]] [ ...
 
 
2 hours later…
11:01 AM
@HostileFork about rewriting IMAGE! : I extended VECTOR!s so can support also images
 
@giuliolunati We should talk about how to integrate your vector work...it should probably be integrated before the specific binding branch. I'm trying to factor out things that are not specifically related to specific binding, so commits today being rebased out from that: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/commits/master
@giuliolunati Also, I think I have figured out what needs to be done with print... you may remember that some of the tinkering made it weirder where blocks inside of blocks were being evaluated? What I think needs to happen is that if you say value: [a b c] | print ["The value is" _ value] that you get The value is [a b c] as the output...with the brackets on, and no evaluation of value
What I am proposing is then two versions of FORM... a dialected one that will do evaluations, used by PRINT when you pass it a block, and then FORM/ONLY which does no evaluations and removes the quotes from string types...which is what it uses in the substitutions that appear in the block.
 
@HostileFork I will write convolution then I'm ready to submit vector work
My REBOL time is now eaten by 1) ocr work 2) gift for my 51 -- 3d printer!
 
@giuliolunati Ah, cool! Well I am doodling a lot on the surface book with the pen, so that's about as much "futuristicness" as I have.
 
11:27 AM
@GrahamChiu sl4abox has a gcc integrated -- install it with kpkg i gcc
 
FORM [x] would be the same as FORM/ONLY x. Really, there's a plan here, I swear. :-)
 
12:02 PM
And in fact, with string types freely aliasing each other without problems, this means that as tag! form [blah blah blah] (or make tag!, or whatever is chosen to do it) can be the new replacement for rejoin of strings...general to all types.
 
 
2 hours later…
1:58 PM
@HostileFork Re: Group! Thanks for the translation. I did need it!
 
@Edoc One thing Ren-C does is that SWITCH statements "soft-quote" their arguments. So you can write e.g. switch type-of value [:group! [print "This can fetch the GROUP! word] (paren!) [print "You can use parentheses too."]]
 
@HostileFork Thanks @pekr for that arcane link. HF, I see in it that Ladislav seems (seemed ?) to like the phrase "computed binding".
 
This means that one of the big cases where people were worried about the names of types can be worked around.
computed binding. Hm. runtime binding?
"definitional" is kind of random as a word, which is sort of an asset, because people probably have a harder time coming to it with preconceptions.
I might suggest "ad hoc binding" (feeling it often deserves some pejorative treatment) but time will tell if it can get hammered into reasonable shape.
 
@HostileFork Couple things I have failed to see explained re void:
(1) How do I return void from my userspace function? New function RETURN-VOID? Varargs RETURN hack? New interpretation of falling off the end?
(2) How do I pass a void to an invocation of a function via APPLY if I can't put it in its block argument?
 
I am feeling that, in fact, it may be prudent to do away with the idea that words expand the user context by default in the console, even if it's willing to auto-gather set-words for convenience. So if you load up a console and type foo: does [print x] and then enter, and then x: 10 | foo then foo will be an error. Maybe for convenience it batches up all of one input buffer to gather, but that'd be the limit.
@MarkI If your userspace function always returns void, you have PROC/PROCEDURE. There is no arity-1 definitional RETURN, only arity-0 LEAVE. It will return void even if there is an expression at the last slot...e.g. there's an implicit () at the end of them.
If you use an expression barrier at the end of DO'd blocks or GROUP!s, then it will mean a void. So (1 + 2 |) winds up being void, does [1 + 2 |] winds up being void.
 
2:12 PM
@HostileFork So your LEAVE is my RETURN-VOID?
 
It's not available in FUNC or FUNCTION, just PROC and PROCEDURE. If you want to return void from a func that otherwise sometimes returns results, you will need to use return ()
I considered VOID as existing, being void: does [], but I kind of have come to idiomatically prefer ()..which is also more efficient.
It's also cheap, since all source-literal read-only () and [] and such are the same empty series.
Functions that return values sometimes and return voids sometimes aren't all that common, so PROC and PROCEDURE cover a lot of it.
And PROCEDURE helps avoid leakage of random values that weren't meant to leak, because there's not really any general habit of people writing functions that don't need to return a value to think about how to suppress things falling out of the bottom.
Note there is no PROCEDURE! type, it's just a FUNCTION! that has a generator, but PROC is natively optimized in the guts in the same way FUNC is
 
OK. What is your response to my second query?
 
@MarkI The main APPLY right now has named arguments, the body of the block has set-words bound to the words of the frame... so apply 'append [series: [1 2 3] value: 4]. (APPLY now accepts lit-words and lit-paths from which it fetches the value for you, in order to label the call with a more readable name in debugging and errors...it wouldn't have the name if just passed the function value)
So the question you ask is for positional apply, and it's only challenging if you're doing a positional apply that isn't reducing the arguments--e.g. an OLD-APPLY/ONLY.
 
s/challenging/impossible/
 
Well, BAR! is a very uncommon parameter, it's unlikely people want to pass it a lot of the time. So I might suggest using that for the purpose, as wanting to opt out is more common than wanting to pass a BAR!.
But then maybe have a /bar-means-bar refinement
@MarkI It's not impossible if you have a parameter which is the "opt out list"
positional-apply/opt-out 'something [a _ b] [$false $true $false]
I was actually just thinking about positional apply, and what the story should be on that.
Ren-C has the benefit of being able to do weirdness like append/(if blah blah blah ['only])/(if blah blah blah ['dup]), or chain [:append (if blah blah blah...) (...)] or whatever, so in a way the evaluative positional apply is best done as "make your block and DO it"
But you're right that there's a trip up with being able to opt out of arguments using positional means when they are not evaluated, which is perhaps a good reason to not base fundamental function ability on opting out of their positional args--a philosophy I already believe in.
Hmm, well my comments about BAR! are only true perhaps because people aren't working with them so much yet. I guess it's not likely to continue to be true. People will use them.
 
2:31 PM
@HostileFork Really? It seems to me you just violated that principle with RETURN. What am I not understanding?
 
@MarkI It's a valid point but RETURN is something one is unlikely to use with APPLY, in fact, there's a bug with using definitional returns with apply at the moment, which I haven't gotten around to fixing yet, in part because it's not super high priority as no one does it
I don't have anything fully against APPLY being a dialect that has a special thing it recognizes meaning "pass a void here", this gets a bit Godelian at some point where you're talking about edge cases and you'll never close them all because that's been like...proven not possible.
So all you can do is shape the space so those things don't come up too often.
Function specialization just basically had to give up and say that if you use a GROUP! then it evaluates in the frame. _ means it's not specialized so handle it normally, and if you really want to pass a NONE! then you have to say arg: quote (_) at the moment.
Would be nicer if that could just be arg: '(_)
 
deleted - for now, sorry
 
@MarkI Well, it's a free Internet. If there's a lot of other people seeking out your technical opinion then you are free to write to them instead.
 
Begin rant.
I guess what I am saying here is that you ask me to comment on something you say you are "pretty sure" about and all I see is questionable things.
I have no problem with exploring issues with potential new features.
But I do have a problem with new features being forced into the language before all of the issues they will cause are explored.
End rant.
I expect nothing to change as a result of sharing this, I just needed to get it off my chest, forgive me please chatroom.
 
Well, we don't live forever yet, and even if I did I wouldn't work on Rebolish things forever.
So I have to make decisions at some threshold of certainty on the thing I program on that not too many other people actively dependent on me do.
If you like, I can stop asking and weighing your opinion.
 
2:46 PM
I am not asking you to stop working HF! I am just trying to point out some of the difficulties I am experiencing trying to work with you.
 
It would probably make things easier for me.
 
Sometimes I also have wished you did not ask for my opinion. I don't like being the bad guy. But I don't think we really have any choice.
 
The most helpful things are concrete examples, because no language will be able to be all things at one point in time. e.g. interesting code that breaks. If every example is abstract then there's a problem.
 
We are the only two people really serious about this thing, and I feel we have to work together.
 
I think there's value in the above comments in the sense that you're saying that we should recognize that you kind of set yourself up for a kind of problem when you are making functions for which a fundamental ability they expose needs a parameterization which can't be stored in a block cell. Hence, try not to use voidness as a "value"
I try to use it only in cases where it means "opt out" e.g. "don't do the thing at all"
 
2:50 PM
Also, if we do end up being able to work together, well, then anything, say like a good Rebol, MUST be possible!
 
I have thought that maybe even the only way you can get functions to take void arguments is if it means the function call is revoked and does not run.
So your point about RETURN is a fair one, as that's the only thing I can think of offhand which doesn't have that property.
It would be possible to say that FUNCTION defines both RETURN and LEAVE, and PROCEDURE defines only LEAVE.
Even though definitional returns are cheap, they still mean more words in the function frame... so that's 2 instead of 1... not the end of the world, and you always have the option to use another generator that adds no words (or other words, or whatever)...just use MAKE FUNCTION! and you won't get anything.
 
@HostileFork I know why it hasn't already: $variable is such an ugly, jarring convention in other languages. Is there any other circumstance where $word appears in natural language? That said, it is probably the most conveniently available prefix out there, so maybe just need to suck it up. I'm also not a fan of single character literals (_). What I should try and do is produce some good test cases which show these choices in context, see how they sit with everyone's gut-o-meter...
 
@rgchris What's wrong with single character "literals" as opposed to single char anything else? e.g. | in PARSE?
@rgchris Well we're not talking about changing true and false the words in source, we're just trying to mitigate issues of seeing #[true] and #[false], which I think is more problematic than $true and $false.
 
@HostileFork | is punctuation with precedence. Proposed _ isn't so much.
 
I actually like $thing, but I also agree with @rgchris that it is ugly, so ugly in fact that it is not even significantly prettier than #[thing]. It's just shorter.
 
3:00 PM
The issue about #[thing] being problematic is not it's attractiveness or lack thereof, but that it builds on BLOCK!ness
 
@HostileFork I get that it's replacing something equally as bad. That's why I'm suggesting sucking it up. I'd say though if it's valid in the messaging language, then it's valid in source too—pretty sure there's a script or two out there that use the literal form...
 
When BLOCK!ness is a very intrinsic language feature and you're going to throw people quickly by using it for something that doesn't even need to be a block.
At least with more elaborate construction syntaxes you can argue "well, it needed paired delimiters"
@rgchris That's not a ringing endorsement, but, perhaps enough to suggest getting it in to start trying it.
 
@HostileFork Though it is consistent with other literal types that do need blockiness. As I've suggested before, almost like a literal-type dialect. Still say #() should have been the preferred option for literals though, not maps.
2
 
Because being in parentheses makes it look more likely to be something that "boils away", perhaps?
 
In regular evaluation, parenthesis are evaluated, blocks are not. So, yes—boils away :)
>> mold/all next next "I am literal"
 
3:05 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== {#[string! "I am literal" 3]}
 
Even literal strings are blocky :)
 
Well it does help if one were to think of it as a function producing something, to the extent it's a good idea to think of that.
Reasonable argument, and the first time I've heard it.
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== {#[string! "I am literal" 3]}
 
Thanks for the dup, RB!
 
@rgchris So the thing to turn over in your head for the moment, I present... the potential planned solution to stringystuff
form takes a block only by default, all other types are errors. Its processing result of this block is the same string output as what you would get if you passed a block to print. The only difference is that print outputs it, while form does not...and the form does not add a newline.
FORM only returns STRING!. If you want another type, however, you can just re-image the same underlying series. So as tag! form [...] would be fine and not copy the data. So there is no /TYPE parameter or thing like that, which combine had.
print also only takes a block by default, all other types are errors.
When processing a block, FORM is dialected and will not do any evaluations or function calls except on content in parentheses. Simple references are looked up, and their contribution to the string being built up comes back as the result of FORM/ONLY-ing them.
This introduces us to FORM/ONLY, which unlike FORM which only takes blocks, will take any type.
FORM/ONLY has properties such as not including " delimiters on STRING! when forming, but will include <> delimiters on tags. For block types, it will MOLD them. For BINARY! it will interpret the binary as UTF-8.
Due to the properties of the definition, form [x] is equivalent to form/only x, and likely more pleasant to type for some cases.
 
3:13 PM
Thus there'd be no print "Hello World!", it'd have to be print/only "Hello World!" or print ["Hello World"]?
 
Yes, but print/only "Hello World" would not output a newline, while print ["Hello World"] would.
Next, FORM does not insert spaces between elements by default. The _ literal is in the dialect for spacing. | can be used for a newline.
Because evaluations are only within GROUP!s in the form'd data, these are not needed for other purposes, e.g. | does not have to serve an expression barrier role.
For automatic spacing, the /WITH refinement offers a more generalized service for delimiting, which would be inspired from COMBINE for things like what a function passed would do.
This would be present on FORM, and PRINT would pass it through as well.
The result of this assembly of things is that if someone sees print value they know that's something that can potentially do evaluations. One does not try and make debug output for something and then one day, instead of getting debug output you get a block instead of a string, and things go haywire.
It only accepts blocks, so value must be a block, or it will be an error.
People know what they're getting when they see a print without a block around the argument...someone is trying to leverage a dialected print and pass in dialected material. Even though there's no block there, they will "see" the block.
This distinguishing it from print [value], in which you know that value will not be evaluated. If value is ["Hahaha" (format hard drive)] that will output ["Hahaha" (format hard drive)] in textual form.
 
Will consider it. On the face of it I have both positive and negative gut reactions to aspects, but I'll not outline or dismiss them before mulling it over.
 
Do some thought experiments with your source, but what this adds up to is that FORM replaces REJOIN for ANY-STRING! types, and in a much more coherent way
And think about the axes of both "new user surprise" and general safety.
The same FORMing engine is to be reusable and I'm thinking about a form-each which would let you loop over something and each thing you process you could return something that would contribute to the "gathering" form buffer.
e.g. str: form-each x ["blah" #instruction "blah"] [if issue? x [(do some processing) continue] x] ... where remembering that continue will pretend the loop exited with void, then imagine that means "don't add anything to the forming buffer"...
So FORM eats COMBINE here, and ties in as the PRINT engine, saving the masses from REJOIN and its weirdness and weird name, all at the low low cost of having to say where your spaces are (and putting expressions you want evaluated, that aren't simple refs or paths, in parentheses)
The one remaining "hmm" is whether or not it's worth it to have the nesting groups and transclusion... e.g. form/with [["a" "b"] ["c" "d"]] "+" => "ab+cd"...which is a feature of the current NewPrint and combine
Various features like /with [":" "*" "-"] for different delimiters at the levels, etc.
I just got increasingly tired of default spacing, it's not what you want...and when you don't default space you also get the advantage that you can do "Multi-line-strings" where the indent doesn't get in the way just by letting it merge the sequential strings.
unset?: does [
    fail [
        {UNSET? is reserved in Ren-C for future use}
        | {(Will mean VOID? GET, like R3-Alpha VALUE?, only for WORDs/PATHs}
        | {Use VOID? for a similar test, but be aware there is no UNSET! type}
        | {If running in <r3-legacy> mode, old UNSET? meaning is available}
    ]
]
FAIL being FORM-powered, but intending to add other things like meanings for what a URL is supposed to mean by putting the link in the ERROR! object, for instance.
Anyway, one technical conclusion to all the above being I've definitely turned against /ONLY being the way of saying "don't automatically space". To me that has to mean "don't treat the block as a dialect if you are passed a block", and I think that removing the newline from that also is sensible if you think of the dialected block as the place where the notion of a line grouping came from in the first place
Ren-C makes it very easy to specialize functions, so sprint: specialize :print [with: true | delimiter: space] and now you have a spacing print, with proper help strings and everything. Boom.
@rgchris The other possibility is to still go with auto-spaced defaults and NewPrint's suggestion, hence if you didn't want spacing you could do a double block... print [["this" "stuff" "would" "not" "get "spaced"]] but print ["this" "stuff" "would"] It's on the table.
In the scheme of things, though, I think it makes less sense.
 
4:30 PM
@MarkI So maybe I buy that the only way you should be able to opt out of a non-refinement argument is if it opts out entirely of the function call having any effect. I had considered this. Maybe having RETURN and LEAVE be available in functions would mitigate it. In fact, the RETURN and LEAVE could be generated on demand only...if you didn't use a RETURN or LEAVE in the body, it doesn't get either. So <no-return> and <no-leave> would not just turn them off, but turn off the scan for them.
In current formulations, RETURN is the only function I can think of that still has an action when a non-refinement-argument is missing.
Previously there was "check-set", but now that's not necessary. Hmmm... I guess SET/OPT would fit the bill as well.
And void? returns true. Sigh. I dunno, but really you don't start solving this kind of problem by saying "now we have a value that means the absence of a value"...your problems are just different, and empirically there are a whole lot more of them in practice, getting in the way of the most common code that people write vs. edge cases in meta-programming.
 

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