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9:05 AM
@johnk - I think that crash tickets should be marked as such, at least I find it important to know what can crash the interpreter.
In addition to "severity.crash", I also find it important to have "severity.major" and "severity.block" labels, and I prefer "status.important" to be removed for not being meaningful.
 
9:44 AM
So I have an "interim plan" for specific binding, which is to invent a "guessed" state for the specifier. Basically, there will be parts in the system that throw up their hands and say "I did not get context information for this array of values, so I cannot turn a relative binding into a specific one". These will fall back on dynamic binding, as today, when word lookup is performed.
Then over time, the gradual goal will be to make sure all of these locations then have the GUESSED specifier passed in turned into a proper frame, threaded through, to that point, to get a specific binding.
It seems much more reasonable than trying to rewrite all the code in the system at once.
"There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know."
I can say that now the FUNCLOSURE! has moved from known unknown status to known known status.
 
@johnk - yet another note: in CureCode there is a "dismissed" value in the "status" field which means that the ticket has been dismissed. On the other hand, ticket/severity="not-a-bug" just means that the issue discussed is not a bug, is does not mean the ticket has been dismissed.
In my opinion, ticket/severity="not-a-bug" can remain unreflected. It looks as a general property of wishes.
 
 
3 hours later…
12:27 PM
 
12:44 PM
@giuliolunati @ShixinZeng I have good news and bad news. The good news is that I believe I have a method for solving the long-standing problem of the two different types of user functions: FUNCTION! and CLOSURE!. Users will not be concerned about this distinction...they will get all the benefits of closures without a deep copy of the function body needing to be made on each instantiation.
(The only question they will have will be if they want a word for a parameter to be able to be dereferenced in a way that outlives the function invocation, and that will be something they can (in the long run) specify on a per-parameter or local basis.)
The bad news is that picking values out of arbitrary arrays will give you a type that is not a REBVAL.
It will be RELVAL...type-incompatible with REBVAL, but most operations will be possible on it. You can get its type with VAL_TYPE(), etc.
The main noticeable thing you won't be able to do with it is copy it, without using a special COPY_RELVAL(dest,src,specifier) macro. You need to have something called a specifier, which is a FRAME! context. Sometimes you can be certain you don't need one, and then you will pass in SPECIFIED. For instance, a MAP! does not need to worry about it. Its array is of "specified" REBVALs, because none of them can possibly be resident in the deep copy of a function body.
But a lot of the time you aren't certain, and the place you get a specifier from is likely going to be the REBVAL where you got the VAL_ARRAY(value) from. That same array should have a specifier, as VAL_SPECIFIER(value), which you can use with any relative values picked out of it.
For the near term, as the method solidifies, there'll be GUESSED which you can put in if you are annoyed and just want to copy a RELVAL even though you don't know what specifier to use with it. This will propagate through and fall upon on today's behavior for looking up words, which is to search the currently running functions for a match of the function specified in the relative word's bits.
There is really no way to wave a magic wand over all the code and have everything be fixed to work under the new rules in a day. For this reason, REBVAL* and RELVAL* will be the same data type for now. So you won't notice much difference yet, other than things like an extra parameter to GET_VAR operations. And you can say GUESSED if you don't feel like figuring out what to say for that parameter.
 
1:03 PM
@johnk : @earl said: 'I don't know the reasoning behind why the CC attributes were not preserved verbatim.' and 'there was quite a bit of confusion (in my perception, at least) between the "intended use" of the CC attributes (esp in the severity vs priority dimensions)' Therefore, we discussed the CC attributes and assembled a list that was added to github.com/rebol/rebol-issues README.md file.
Hope it will be of use
 
1:16 PM
>> type? second body-of func-map: func [z /local y] compose [y: (make map! ["A" 1]) select y z]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== map!
 
@HostileFork That's a map in a function body ... or am I misunderstanding something?
 
@MarkI The map's array isn't resident in the function body. The BLOCK! used during the make process is, but once it becomes a MAP! the values are shallow copied, and in that shallow copy become "specified"
 
@HostileFork Please continue.
 
@HostileFork So maps act like frames somehow?
 
1:19 PM
A shallow-copied word will be resolved against the frame, so that REBVAL's bits will be fully resolved. A shallow-copied any-array will have the REBVAL's bits marked with the frame, and then that will hang around to be used by anyone who starts digging into the array.
 
The maps words are bound to its "frame" when the map is created?
 
Nope, the shallow copied values that wind up inside their own map-array of rebvals (key value pairs) become FRAME!-aware during the copy.
The MAP! REBVAL holds an array in it which is not user accessible. It is laid out as [key val key val key val]
 
Hm. So words in maps are not bound, and will not be bound?
 
In the example you have above ["A" 1] is the example of a block that could have contained arrays in it like [y [y z] z [[y] [z]]] etc.
That is the tricky case which we are concerned about
 
OK
 
1:21 PM
We would like those to be the ys and the zs that apply to the specific function invocation where the map was made.
We want that but we are also cheapskates, and we don't want to copy the bits of the function body deeply on each execution just for the sake of putting the specific bits addressing that function call in.
 
But if I had said [a 1] instead of ["A" 1] then that word A would not be bound, relatively or not?
 
Depends on the context
 
Just the words inside val arrays, not words that are keys, need the extra binding step?
 
It's irrelevant whether its a key or a value.
The map just stores what it gets
 
Right, sorry, maps aren't even remotely like objects, I forgot :(
@HostileFork In case you were wondering, this FRAME! stuff is pretty darn hard to understand, not your fault ...
 
1:26 PM
Hopefully it will be simpler as people get it more in their hands to use, I think the result of all this is going to be something that's easier to understand...certainly as a user.
Having to know what the difference is between a function and a closure was too much to bother users with, unnecessary complexity leaking out because the implementation wasn't smart enough.
 
I don't care about users yet, my concern is to have graspable C source for future maintainers ...
I do disagree that function/closure is opaque to users, I think it is an understandable distinction.
Even if they are implemented in terms of each other, the current interface should be kept, for that reason.
 
If you mean "variables survive after call" then that is easy to understand, I meant the ramifications of the dynamic binding vs specific ones
 
We are in agreement then, on both counts. Cheers!
 
And I think <durable> or a similar tag is better than abusing the word "closure"
 
Aw, you ruined our moment ... :)
 
1:32 PM
It really isn't too far away from per-variable marking, I just don't consider it much of a priority.
Too many other things.
 
I like the per-variable stuff too, but some might not need it to be that fine-grained.
 
func [<durable> x y] [] ... both x and y durable. func [x [<durable>] y] ... just x is durable
Speaking of which, the meaning of func [x []] is on the table in terms of meaning "doesn't take any types" vs. "takes default types functions accept".
It came up with func [x [<...>]] where that would be a variadic that allows no types.
The problem is that [] runs a common code path with MAKE TYPESET!, and for completeness there has to be a way to say empty typeset.
Alternatives are to retain the compatibility, such that MAKE TYPESET! [] means "default acceptable to function arguments" but some other syntax for nothingness... or to separate it off to where function arg typespecs have different assumptions, such as "you must not have meant to make a function that accepted no types"
I'm skeptical of saying you'd never want to make a function where an argument accepted no types, because sometimes generative programming techniques produce things and then that's what you really meant... this case shouldn't be callable.
So in that sense, I sort of lean toward wanting to do something like say make typeset! [] is illegal, that way giving it meaning in the function case isn't treading on the generalized typeset syntax, so you know that making empty typesets is done some other way. But I don't know.
 
2:04 PM
Just for clarity, I do agree that CLOSURE! is abusing the term. I wish I had a better word for what it really is.
 
Durable works. Though I have been wondering after <...> if there are other symbol-based marks which might be good.
words are verbose and get mixed up with the types and the variable names
 
Durable works when applied to variables, not so well when talking about the entire function. It's not a big issue though, of course.
 
 
2 hours later…
3:43 PM
@MarkI If you have anything you feel unresolved about the frame mechanics do bring it up, because, as I said, I now think the idea will work and can explain how it works.
What used to be kind of vague hand-waving is now more specific.
 
 
1 hour later…
5:02 PM
@redbot
path: 'obj/(print "Side-effect!" 'x)
obj: make object! [x: 10]

value? :path
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
@RebolBot
path: 'obj/(print "Side-effect!" 'x)
obj: make object! [x: 10]

value? :path
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
>> help value?
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
USAGE:
    VALUE? value

DESCRIPTION:
    Returns TRUE if the word has a value.
    VALUE? is a native value.

ARGUMENTS:
    value
 
5:16 PM
posted on February 10, 2016 by Steven White

I am looking for things I can put it a program so that if the program crashes to a command prompt I can probe around for helpful information.  It occurred to me that if, when I call a function, that function could make a note of its own name in some place, then I could probe that 'some place' to find the last function called.  Of course I could just hard-code the function na

 
6:01 PM
@HostileFork Get-paths don't work currently, or they are supposed to do nothing, I can't tell.
 
Not specifically Rebol/Red related, but it will be. I've ripped the instrument panel out of my project truck in preparation for building my own in-car computerized instrument and control panel. I'm thinking about investigating Red for this project. I'll be posting some project videos soon.
 
>> path: 'a/(print 'Boo! 1) path = :path
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
@Respectech That sounds great!
 
@Respectech Will Goldie be driving the car? You can re-create Pole Position
 
6:28 PM
@HostileFork I think Goldie might be the co-pilot. I'm sure there will be some inspiration from Knight Rider, but as I want the truck to work without an active Internet connection, I'll probably have to settle for Flite or Festival for speech synthesis. The AI might be a bit challenging, though. ;-p
 
Working offline can be a pain, how hard can it be to get the various detailed cards from a routeplanner without having to make all the screenshots by hand beforehand?
 
@iArnold I've heard Google Maps has the ability to download area maps now for the purpose of working offline. I haven't tried it, so I don't know what limits there are yet.
 
 
2 hours later…
8:22 PM
>> +: to-infix specialize :append [dup: true count: 2]

>> [a b c] + [d e f]
== [a b c d e f d e f]
Just fixed an oversight which kept that one from working (though not yet committed). In general, things compose pretty well, trying to keep it that way.
 
8:38 PM
>> 1-1-1/12:00-:-15
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 1-Jan-2001/12:00+0:15
 
That's ... not right. Loving my BNF!
Which I am starting to try and call my PEG, which is what it is.
 
 
1 hour later…
10:04 PM
@Ladislav thanks for the feedback and the updates to the readme with @earl. I will collate the suggested updates and come up with a script to fix them. I'll be in touch when I have something to review
 
10:29 PM
@HostileFork @MarkI I need syntax to access elements in a matrix. M/[1 2] sounds good (perhaps a bit cumbersome) but what you think of M/1/2 ?
 
@giuliolunati I think being able to select with blocks is a nice idea, as pairs e.g. 1x2 don't work so well, but the parser does not allow it at this time. If you say M/1/2 then you'll have to use the "sub-addressing" kind of idea if you don't let people pick the vectors out individually... is M/1: [...] legal?
 
I think M/1 could be a row
 
That makes it easier a bit for the paths
 
So M/1/2 is "2nd element of 1st row", that's ok
 
I'd usually think of it in x y terms
So the 1st would be the column picker, second would be the row
 
10:41 PM
I prefer the most common notation . Also, in current implementation row elements are contiguous, column elements aren't.
A matrix is split in rows, then in columns.
 
Well, if that's most common...but it depends what you see it as being for
 
Alternative to M/1/2 is M/1x2 or M/([1 2])
 
A pair is a literal, so it's not a generic syntax... you can do M/:x/:y but not M/xxy
 
Right.
 
The rules for paths also haven't totally firmed up how it might work, or how free you could be. You might be able to say that m/some-var/some-other-var would look up those vars as if you had typed m/:some-var/:some-other-var
But there's no rulebook on this to say what is right or wrong
 
10:46 PM
And what if M/[1 2] was legal?
 
It seems it should be, I'd think that a reasonable notation for it
But I think these things should be legal largely because I think they could be interesting in dialects.
 
Agree. So, let's try?
 
You can talk to @MarkI about what it would take to mess with the scanner. I've steered mostly clear of it. I'd hate to see it get murkier...but if you can find a clean way (and perhaps even make it better or clearer than it is now) to get blocks in paths I'd approve of that.
You'd think since it supports the parentheses it would be easy. It might be.
It would be interesting if foo: [a b 10 c d 20 e f 30] then foo/[c d] were 20. I dunno. Would have to see how useful it was, and if it were more useful than selecting the block literally.
I dunno about generalized meaning of reduction in that case. M/[a b] if it reduced would be inconsistent then, with the selection
So you'd have to say M/(reduce [a b]), which is awkward. So I don't know. Maybe a block in a path gets reduced, but then handled like a block would to select anyway
Anyway, got to take off for a bit... keep us posted :-)
 
Ok, thx :-)
 

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