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12:24 AM
I answered your SO question @HostileFork. I'm betting you will not accept my answer :)
 
@MarkI Nope. I was going to deliberately forbid that, but I thought the obviousness of "not that" would be apparent enough...
But yes, I did think of it.
I have a new "status quo" tag formulation that seems simple and reasonable:
"TAG! cannot start or end with ' ', '=', '~', '<', '>'...may not start with ')', ']', '}'...may not end with '(', '[', or '{'. A tag terminates when any of the non illegal ending characters is seen with a > after it."
 
0
A: Can strings be 'late bound' as if they were words in the same positions?

MarkIf: m: 0 ctx: context [ f: 4 m: 10 both: object [ m: 20 getter-code: does [print [f m]] getter-text: does [print reduce [bind load "f" 'f bind load "m" 'm]] ] ]

 
It's simple. It permits <% if 1 < 2 %>. It also permits <% foo => bar %>
It does not permit <tag symbol=">">. It is indifferent to single quotes, double quotes, parentheses and friends, unless they look "closey" or "openy" in the first or last slot.
 
@HostileFork Why? It does what you asked. I'm curious how you would phrase your forbiddance, so modify away.
 
If I am required to phrase it: As evidenced by the fact that I thought of saying "And no, something that just prints 4 and 20 does not qualify"...and then thought it beneath mentioning and adding length to the question which did not further the goal of communication, it did not suddenly qualify as worth mentioning when you answered it thusly.
Anyway, no worries, but on the tag thing, there's my latest "status quo tag" formulation.
It meets my bar for "simple rule", and even though it puts the nix on -> and --> by giving them to tag, it makes me feel better with the symmetries. If I can know <-- foo --> is a tag, then I don't worry as much.
Anyways, think on the tag idea...off for a bit...
 
1:41 AM
@HostileFork OK, no worries, but, my answer does definitely not "just" print 4 and 20, so, there's that.
You could argue that it "just" prints f and m, but again, that's what the question currently asks for.
 
2:22 AM
@Adrian To use my make-cmake.r, you can do:
1. go to make/
2. ./r3-make ../src/tools/make-cmake.r 0.4.4
3. cmake .
4. make -f Makefile
this should give you an executable with FFI integeration
You can build for 64-bit linux with OS ID 0.4.40
Cross-compile from Linux for windows is also supported
Mingw on win32 should also be supported, but I haven't tested it yet
 
 
2 hours later…
4:47 AM
@HostileFork Your question does point out something re contexts: a word can be bound to a context only if you can access that context. What contexts are available definitionally are unavailable in subsidiary functions, because (by "definition" :) they only have syntactic access to contexts available at the time they get defined.
Contexts are first-class values in Rebol, though, so it could work if the context(s) were to be passed in to 'impossible-print.
 
5:10 AM
Answer updated.
 
@MarkI Better to have some text saying "No it's impossible." Anyway, I was thinking of the conundrum of how a string compose might work.
 
@HostileFork "Just take those blinders off and you'll see" is better than "You can't see".
 
My point with the question is that I think people will want to do it with the string having the sensibilities words would have had. I wonder if there's some kind of item you could have that could sit there and accumulate a "binding memory" of the binds that had been run against it, then be passed in as an argument. :-/
Problem is that with complete imperative control of binding, you wouldn't catch the guy who went along, did if word = 'banana [bind word ...]
So it's just life I guess. But it's the kind of thing that belongs in an early chapter of a Rebol book, not a late one.
 
Bindology should be an early chapter, a middle chapter, a late chapter, and an appendix in that book.
 
5:32 AM
@MarkI Do you think my "simple tag" proposal is implementable simply? The natural tags it would prohibit would be things like <)(> (you've pointed out why that's bad), and <">">... while allowing <()> and <")">... and <% if 1 > 2 ... %> and <" > ">
And <foo > """>
 
@HostileFork It may well be implementable, and maybe even simply. Wisely, I'd have to say no.
 
@MarkI What, pray tell, is unwise about it? I'm afraid that it's going to be impossible to satisfy both "morphemeism" and Chris's desires here. We cannot take an eternity to implement something better than what is there today.
 
You are removing the only feature that tags currently have. That is all that is unwise about it.
 
It has officially been eternity.
That being quote matching? Yes.
I am removing it. Because the requirements coming from Chris want it removed.
And because the only thing to do besides remove it that is sensible is to expand it to single quotes. And that too is ill advised.
The quote matching facilitates something that is not even wanted...namely the idea that only special places may contain a lone ">"
 
Quote matching is a syntactic requirement, not a semantic one. It (or something like it) is necessary whatever the semantics.
It just so happens that they overlap in the current implementation. I can't say if that's wise, either.
 
5:48 AM
Well the issues we face are more like "how to embed tags inside of an HTML comment so you can talk about them unescaped". I'm afraid only SuperTag offers a coherent story on this.
If SuperTAG! and simple tag are paired up, it suggests the textual portion would not have a tag terminated by a lone > (surrounded by spaces)
In other words, the only textual intelligence I want inside a TAG! is Rebol textual intelligence. No PHP "intelligence". No HTML comment "intelligence".
If there isn't that, then no intelligence. It's a string.
 
I have already expressed my opinions on the extended tag syntaxes proposed by @rgchris (see the right side of your screen).
Again, I will emphasize my priority ordering for Rebol: correct, complete, flexible, useful, performant.
You are talking about stage 4 tags, I would like to see stage 1 tags first.
No harm in talking about it, of course. Just don't hate me for still talking about stage 1.
 
Not hating, just needing to see some progress somewhere in the machine.
 
Noted.
 
If we have #ifdefs in the code that turn on and off various choices, that's useful in and of itself. If we had #ifdef SUPER_TAG, #ifdef SIMPLE_TAG, etc. and the code could just be tried you can even put your #ifdef TAGS_START_WITH_DOT_WE_TREAT_THEM_DIFFERENTLY_FOR_SOME_BIZARRE_REASON.
But if we don't have any motion or PRs, or published blogs, or anything like that... then yes I'll get grumpy because we should have something to show for all this.
My concession here is to yield the -> arrows as things people will see as "tag endings", and in general to decide that %> and <! and other such things aren't as interesting as operators as they are as being recognizable and knowable as tag endings and beginnings.
Being able to see -> as being in that set is a little tough, but if there is => then one might argue that it might already be a sketchy thing to give the two different meanings in a dialect anyway. Not insurmountable, but at least I could see people going "Hm, what's the difference between the two arrows again?"
 
6:07 AM
>> help foreach
USAGE:
FOREACH 'word data body

DESCRIPTION:
Evaluates a block for each value(s) in a series.
FOREACH is a native value.

ARGUMENTS:
word -- Word or block of words to set each time (local) (word! block!)
data -- The series to traverse (series! any-object! map! none!)
body -- Block to evaluate each time (block!)
any reason why we can't have

foreach [ block of words ] data body ?
 
@GrahamChiu Aw, thought that was a RebolBot evaluation for a moment. :-/
@GrahamChiu No technical reason the parameter can't be passed. You can even pass in such a block via :block-var or (thing producing a block). Just about defining what you want it to do on the boundary cases.
 
it's not a supported syntax at present
I'd like to step through some data using words instead of positions
 
@GrahamChiu foreach [a b] [1 2 3] [print [a b]]
1 2 then 3 none?
 
yeah
or stop at 1, 2
 
Sure, why not.
 
6:19 AM
what does forskip do?
 
Who do I look like, RebolBot?
 
gives none
 
@GrahamChiu Make thee a curecode ticket and it may well be done for thee.
Rebol genie isn't quite ready to grant wishes, but almost.
Still setting up the Feng-Shui inside the lamp. (I know it seems like it would be small, but I take a long time with my interior decorating. It's not the size of the room; it's the depth of the design.)
 
7:06 AM
posted on August 03, 2015 by Graham

[Wish] at present foreach accepts a single word as its first parameter. I'd like to see it accept a block of words as well so we can access the data by word rather then having to use forskip.

 
@GrahamChiu ^-- examples needed. The "none" issue is non-trivial, in that if you have a block of NONE! values do you want that to be distinguishable from none values you might get via iterating the remainder? Do you want it to be an error if it's not an even number? Needs to be in the specification.
And presuming that you indeed do want it to function as block: [a b] foreach :block [1 2 3 4] [print [a b]]
Where it gets the block, and same for paren where the paren is eval'd
@sqlab Speaking of New Wave Rebol, have you built Ren/C? github.com/metaeducation/ren-c
New things are coming.
(For some, new things are already here...mac users having CALL and HTTPS and such. But bigger things are afoot.)
 
Also, is there a way to step through a set of series in step?
Do other languages have that feature?
 
@GrahamChiu You mean foo x [[1 2 3] [4 5 6]] [print x] => 1 4, 2 5, 3 6?
 
something like that
 
Don't think such a thing exists, one could of course write it.
 
7:18 AM
nested loops normally
 
We had a whole discussion on what the loop dialect might look like, and what its capabilities might be.
 
did it cover this possibility? :)
 
I was leaning toward the very natural loop x [1 to 10] [print x] and loop x [1 thru 10] [print x] for starters, for example distinguishing the boundaries, but there have been a lot of other ideas which might include things like your parallel series.
One has to put on one's creativity hat. It's been suggested even that the variables themselves go into the block. More like loop [x: 1 to 10] [print x]
Which could please the people who insist loop 5 [print "I have no access to the loop variable"] is a good arity for LOOP.
 
do other languages have this type of ability to step thru series in parallel
 
I'm sure some do, those focused on vector processing and data pipes of various kinds.
The things I can think of offhand that do it aren't so much languages as they are things where you lay out visual graphs and say "slice me some of this and mix one of these with one of those".
 
7:22 AM
no, I have not built Ren/C. I am waiting for a precompiled binary. But I used R3 from Atronix and then deleted the comment.
 
@sqlab Not sure what comment you're referring to. But as I'm interested in seeing people become more involved, I'll ask what prevents you from building it? A nice thing about building it is the "helping people to help themselves" aspect, and growing a developer community so people are more empowered. The idea is that it be simple. People find that it is.
Jul 20 at 17:55, by Respectech
Well, that was easy! (At least on a stock ODROID)

1. git clone https://github.com/metaeducation/ren-c
2. cd ren-c/make
3. wget http://respectech.com/odroid/r3
4. chmod 755 r3
5. mv r3 r3-make
6. make -f makefile.boot

Less than 3 minutes later, a working R3!
 
But red doesn't need a C compiler toolset :)
 
@GrahamChiu Neither will Rebol, with TCC support. But that too requires people to get involved and finish it off. It's mostly there.
A self-building Rebol is actually very close to existence.
4
 
@HostileFork Nice, how far away is close?
 
For @earl on a good day, about a day.
:-)
 
7:27 AM
Until now Rebol2 is still sufficient for me, as I do not program anymore.
 
Well, Angry Birds would be sufficient then.
 
@sqlab No more HL7 processing?
 
no, not in that business anymore
 
Well, okay then. Moving on...
 
So, TCC would be loaded as a library?
 
7:41 AM
@GrahamChiu The source code built directly in, and (for starters) if you said rebol --std=c89 or rebol --std=c99 or somesuch, then it would interpret the rest of the arguments as if it were a C compiler.
So you could just sub rebol for gcc or clang.
 
though I see the code it produces is not as fast as other compilers, according to WP
 
Neither does Red. Anyway, it would mostly be bragging rights to self-build and not need make or a separate compiler. Or if you find yourself in a situation where you have to. But the bigger win is arguably generating C code, compiling it on the fly, and linking it in to accelerate something you're doing that could benefit from C speed in the field.
 
@HostileFork that sounds freaky cool
 
It would be like a more standards-based old-school Red.
Where the value of being C89/C99 compatible is seen as outweighing learning a less documented Red/System just for its homoiconic and shared representation status.
Both approaches have merit.
And yes, we are close
 
TinyCC is not being updated ... is that going to be a problem for new processor architectures?
 
7:45 AM
It has been taken over by new management: repo.or.cz/w/tinycc.git
And it looks like they are gathering up to make it non-LGPL which would be good for keeping Ren/C-Rebol built with it Apache
Though it's sad to see the GPL licenses falling from favor. Sigh. Humans.
 
"Measures were done on a 2.4 GHz Pentium 4. Real time is measured. Compilation time includes compilation, assembly and linking. "
Where do they get the 2.4Ghz P4s for the tests?
 
@GrahamChiu rebol.net's server has been down for a while. Coincidence?
Jul 20 at 23:31, by earl
Compiler        / Build time    / Binary size

Clang 3.6.2     / 18.3sec       /  836K
GCC 5.1.0       / 19.9sec       /  776K
G++ 5.1.0       / 21.6sec       /  792K (+ libstdc++)
ICC 15.0.3      / 30.1sec       / 1548K
TCC 0.9.26      /  1.4sec       / 1352K

(make -f makefile.boot OS_ID=0.4.40 CC=$COMPILER)
@GrahamChiu How long it takes to build Rebol as measured by earl, and how big the exe is with "-O2", using various compilers. (TCC doesn't do optimization much.)
On 64-bit linux X86
The TCC in question built with GCC, not itself.
Which doesn't (hopefully) change its code gen, but changes how long it takes to do it.
So it's time to brush up on your C. Then you could tweak the foreach native, etc. as well as get fast little helpers generated in your Rebol, called out to via ROUTINE!/STRUCT!/LIBRARY!
 
I haven't got to A let alone C yet
 
 
2 hours later…
10:14 AM
If you want to optimize for size, there's still the -Os size since I heard that Rebol's people liked to keep their executbles small :)
 
10:35 AM
@Morwenn Within reason as long as it doesn't compromise performance or make things look virusy... so there's no UPX compression etc. done in formal releases.
(But that just means it gets even smaller if you do.)
 
Hey, the problems in the tag! discussion are probably more or less equivalent to what lead to C++'s raw string design.
 
@Morwenn Let's hope for better.
 
@HostileFork That was just a small warning :)
 
I think SuperTAG!, with the lone > and < exception, is my personal choice.
<% if 1 > 2 %> would thus be legal. Because space > can't end a tag.
<% if 1 -> 2 %> would not be "natural"-legal, because -> can end a tag.
<% if 1 => 2 %> would be natural legal, because => cannot end a tag (and <= cannot start one)
 
10:50 AM
Couldn't it simply look for "the" ending tag and accept anything else inside?
 
There is no "the" ending tag. <div />, </div>
 
When you open one, you know which one should be "the" matching one, right?
 
<div p> :-/
<index !>
 
I mean, when you open a tag with <%, you know that you want it to be closed with %>, right?
 
I don't see that as being essential.
I might want to make a tag called <%foo>
I'm much more likely to want to give that a meaning than to start using PHP.
 
10:52 AM
Well, in that case...
 
I think SuperTAG! plus Rebol escaping covers the spectrum of what we should be considering.
 
Hey, on French.SE :D
 
Which is to say, empowering Rebol code in tags is more important than catering to PHP's fleeting relevance.
English SE is a bunch of irritating people.
The learn english people are better.
 
Of course, English.SE is for perfectionists of some kind. There are some interesting questions though.
I tried to contribute to French.SE at some point but I always feel pressured when writing questions and answers and fear that I could make a single mistake. That, and I never really knew the language rules. I kind of instinctively know how to use them but I could never remember the theory.
 
Hello everybody
 
11:00 AM
@Paner Hello :)
 
@Paner Hello... any prior knowledge of either Rebol or Red? (languages)
Actually, abiding by the --std=XXX switch seems like a pretty good idea in general. It's better than --tcc as it really does mean that if you make that your first switch in your compile you can just sub in Rebol. And it could also use it to recognize Rebol versions.
I guess it could also trigger off of if the file was a .c ... but Rebol is supposed to be file extension agnostic and look for the header.
 
11:21 AM
We need the switch for "old" Rebol conventions sooner rather than later. Hm. --std=reb3a, --std=reb3 ?
reb3a could act like what was claimed to be "Rebol 3 alpha" for a bit, giving the deprecated behavior warnings. reb3 could be the "deal with the new rules" and default setting.
 
11:41 AM
ok, I compiled Ren-C, but I do not see any enhancement I am interested in. I was at least expecting, that copying multi-line source would work
 
@sqlab - what are you doing nowadays, if you are not an IT guy anymore? :-)
 
still IT again, but not more in health business, just a little server management and HPC clustering
 
11:57 AM
@sqlab You expect things to work that are not advertised as being what that thing does? Pay a little more attention, and read a little more closely, Mr. "I Don't Program". In any case, a video that pertains to what you "expected": Ren Garden video cued up to multi line editing
Geesh.
But, you built it, so there's a bit of a success story I guess.
If I had said "here is a new and improved Rebol console build: Ren/C!" and had a bullet point trumpeting that, and then you felt cheated a bit... sure. Okay. That would be my bad.
But I said that about something else, called Ren/Garden, as a SuperGUI. Perhaps you should have paid attention to that. Along with the early alpha status of the work, and requests for support and engagement.
I could pretty easily link up a text console that would be great if I felt like it. But reactions like that sure don't make me feel like it. It's not a personal agenda for me, and it won't be with that tune.
 
12:31 PM
As I know about your Ren Garden, I was expecting, that something from that had found the way into Ren-C. I respect what you have done and do for the advancement of Rebol, even you sound sometimes a little bit thin-skinned. You are probably the only one, who really advances R3 at the moment.
 
@sqlab I don't know if you expected a positive reaction from your reaction. I think one can assure you wouldn't get one. In any case, you can try reading HTTPS or doing CALL/INPUT/OUTPUT/ERROR and find that working. You can also try the likes of a: copy [] loop 200'000 [a: append/only copy [] a] recycle in your Rebol of choice vs Ren/C. Stability is an "enhancement you should be interested in".
It is quite a lot of work, and so "mmph. I expected a curses-based or Windows terminal coded text console" is at the least an insensitive reaction.
Making it through the test suite without crashing is a "enhancement you should be interested in"
 
@HostileFork - sqlab is rebol "oldtimer". He surely did not want to upset you by any remark. The situation is, that many ppl from the rebol community gave-up upon the R3 ever being finished and functionally wise, being on-pair witht he R2. Those ppl are in a lurk mode at best, hence not having exactl contextual info about the latest happening ...
You imo read too much into what sqlab said ....
 
I'm not that mad, just been working on stuff all morning and yes, questioning "is there a point to this?" at times strongly.
If people want to see it finished, then they'll have some empathy on that point.
 
When Carl asked me, why ppl don't adopt R3 easily, I told him, that the main reason is, that it lacks on some crucial features R2 provided and hence is a step back from the practical usability point of view, even if the language itself was an advancement ...
Just don't get yourself being demotivated, sqlab surely did not want to upset you ...
 
Well it would not be very hard to graft an existing textual terminal onto Rebol. And it also wouldn't be hard to just clone whatever entry points Red uses, and do what they do.
 
12:40 PM
@HostileFork I did a: copy [] loop 200'000 [a: append/only copy [] a] recycle in R2 and in R3. R2 crashed, R3 got ** Internal error: stack overflow
 
Sure. I just picked an example.
You just built an executable. Does it crash?
 
It did not crash. But >>a leads to the stack overflow
 
Not too surprising.
But that's presumably the print.
 
Ah, ok
 
Point is more that one bug at a time, being tended and fixed.
And systemic problems being studied and fixed.
I personally am more interested in a nice IDE than I am a slightly better command line console, and even more interested in it as an embedded library to build such IDEs and more.
What would happen if Rebol suddenly had a console that (let's say) feature matched the Red console? That's not a terribly difficult task. Would that make some kind of big difference? How?
 
12:46 PM
I saw the Rebol console always as sufficient for debugging.
A working console would facilitate testing and creating small utilities. I do not like if I always have to use do load clipboard:// or to write a file for that
 
Here's the Red Win32 api hooks: ReadConsoleInput, GetConsoleScreenBufferInfo, SetConsoleCursorPosition. On POSIX they use some ioctls apparently it's enough with tcgetattr, tcsetattr, and read/write/poll.
That all translates pretty direct to C.
The file in Rebol to modify is this one: host-main.c...which is messy and in fact one of the files that I want out of Ren/C, as it is a specific client of the library.
I could port Red's console behaviors to Rebol fairly directly and it wouldn't take too long if just assuming whatever it does is what people want.
But... what would be in it for me? Who's going to do what differently?
Or will it be one of those "give a mouse some cheese he'll be back for crackers and wine" situations? Where's the commitment and buy-in from the stakeholders?
 
ok, although I did not use C for a long time, I will maybe in two weeks try my luck, as I did once already a multi-line console with history for R3 and showed it to Carl without reaction
 
I will be happy to support any effort with answering questions. A cooperative effort is better than a lone one.
 
Then until then ..
 
There is some smart terminal behavior for POSIX... host-readline.c...
No references to ReadConsoleInput or SetConsoleCursorPosition, so we can assume no effort made on the Windows front with it.
It seems to me that having a "console" directory and having it be #ifdef'd, while not breaking down into the hostkit directories, may make more sense. Basically to imagine it as a separate project (which is what I'd want it to be).
So perhaps we need a src/console directory, to start the process of getting it extricated from the embedding library.
@sqlab I could get it started with making sure the APIs are available, that the directory is in place, and there's a clear place to put the code...such that the remaining concern is "writing it" e.g. deciding the behaviors.
 
 
3 hours later…
3:52 PM
@ShixinZeng Can't seem to get past this error:
../src/core/t-routine.c:33:17: fatal error: ffi.h: No such file or directory
There is now a libffi.makefile-armv7 directory in the make directory, though.
Also, there is now an ffi.h file in git/r3/make/libffi.makefile-armv7/lib/libffi-3.1.1/include
And also an ffitarget.h file there as well.
(Still trying to build R3/View on Raspberry Pi.)
 
>> do does [apply does [] [return 1]]
== 1
Should APPLY X Y be equivalent in behavior to APPLY/ONLY X REDUCE Y ?
If so, that suggests you cannot report a "too many arguments to apply" error until after all the arguments have been evaluated...because that changes how much work is done before the error.
Under that definition, apply does [] [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 return 1] would indeed return 1, and not say "too many arguments", because in the "behaves as if" space, it is behaving as if a reduce ran before that opportunity to give the error came up.
I guess I do lean toward that interpretation, but not to the silent ignoring of extra parameters that apply has today. But this just suggests that if it's going to check parameter counts, it cannot do it until the effective reduce is complete.
 
 
3 hours later…
6:35 PM
@HostileFork
"But the bigger win is arguably generating C code, compiling it on the fly, and linking it in to accelerate something you're doing that could benefit from C speed in the field."

You said c do you also mean c++?
 
 
2 hours later…
8:40 PM
@JacobGood1 Nope he means C. The TCC compiler which will be linked into ren/c only has support for C code.
 
@Respectech are you compiling from the latest source at github? I just compiled it on ARM, and it had a link error, but I didn't see the error you are seeing
I've fixed the error I saw, and it now builds fine
FFI header folder should be included, as it's defined in makefiles/linux-common-defs:
INC= -I$(INCL) -I$S/include/ -I$S/codecs/ -I../src/freetype-2.4.12/include pkg-config freetype2 --cflags -Ilibffi.$(MAKEFILE)/lib/libffi-3.1.1/include/
 
 
2 hours later…
11:05 PM
@ShixinZeng I just cloned using: git clone github.com/zsx/r3
Trying to rebuild now.
 
11:24 PM
@ShixinZeng Same error: ../src/core/t-routine.c:33:17: fatal error: ffi.h: No such file or directory
According to "-Ilibffi.$(MAKEFILE)/lib/libffi-3.1.1/include/", $(MAKEFILE) should be "makefile-armv7". I verified that ffi.h is present in the following directory: git/r3/make/libffi.makefile-armv7/lib/libffi-3.1.1/include
I don't understand why it is failing.
 

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