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12:40 AM
@HostileFork Right, yes, I typed it in a hurry.
@HostileFork It's more of an ASCII bias right now, or actually a byte bias. Uniwhatsits will be a nested case^H^H^H^Hswitch.
But the reason I asked the question is that a huge collection of case blocks, in C, is a code maintenance nightmare.
Sure, it's only 255 of them, and as long as they're grouped into only, let's say, 29 different outcomes, that's just fine, right?
 
@MarkI Case statements when non-sequential can be just a chain of IF/ELSE IF/ELSE IF.
It's up to the compiler.
 
But it isn't fine. I would write a crazy #define macro to do the case-block generation for me, if I had to code even one such monster.
 
In reading it seems there's nothing in the spec saying that sequential CASE statements will be a jump table, BUT it was said in very early C books that it was the case that if you made them sequential it would be so.
 
@HostileFork While you are right, and it's not under my control whether 1 + 1 is not five thousand times slower than 1 - 1, but we've got to start somewhere, and, well, that's where I start. I'll rewrite the TCC switch-handling code if I have to ...
 
And apparently compilers have gone with this, kind of like the branch prediction where they'll assume the true branch of the code is what happens more often
I'm sure you can go into TCC and see what they do
 
12:47 AM
Have you ever heard of a compiler extension that allows case ranges?
 
Other languages have it, if you want to call that a compiler extension
 
If not, then I question whether "sequential" even comes into play.
 
It does, look it up
 
Any compiler can turn a switch into a "sequential" one.
@HostileFork Right, :), I should have said, "must come into play".
 
2
Q: c switch and jump tables

Daniel MironIt is my understanding that a switch statement in c/c++ will sometimes compile to a jump table. My question is, are there any thumb rules to assure that? In my case I'm doing something like this: enum myenum{ MY_CASE0= 0, MY_CASE0= 1, . . . }; switch(foo) { case MY_CASE0: //do stuff bre...

 
12:50 AM
The real question here though HF, and I thank you for being so responsive, is this:
 
I don't know about the guarantees, but I have looked at the asm
 
In writing (new) C code, should we just write everything as if/else and trust an optimization pass to "fix it"?
Because in the scanner there are some nested if's that go dozens deep ...
 
What happens in the optimization passes has been pretty interesting to me
GCC is doing more optimization than Clang. Noticeably more.
 
Which would be just one jump in a "good" switch compiler.
 
I'm half surprised about it, half not surprised. GCC is older but one would think Clang would be newer and more driven by the era of "just the spec, ma'am"
 
12:53 AM
I'm also wary of the simplistic "try it and see what gets generated" approach. I want permanent guarantees, or nothing ...
 
Then you're at the wrong level of abstraction!
 
@HostileFork Howzat?
 
That isn't the game C or C++ plays.
We've discussed this. What you're asking for is contentious with what C and C++ have become.
 
@HostileFork Right, C makes no guarantees, I should shut up and never speak again?
 
I didn't say that. :-)
Nor did I say anything about you shutting up and not speaking again. :-)
 
12:55 AM
If you prefer, I'll use the phrase "de-facto guarantee", but we both have to know that's what we're talking about.
@HostileFork Right, of course, I meant about asking something from C, sorry if I implied otherwise.
Because I do want to ask something from C, and I do want it to be askable.
 
I feel your pain, and I must admit that in undertaking this weird thing (it's been a while since I've been going down to the disassemblies and registers and such) I've had a little of the horse blinders taken off of assumptions I'd gotten maybe too comfortable about
 
So I need your input as well, and if that's just "all is mud", we're not really going to get anywhere.
But maybe that's what we're stuck with, I guess.
 
And especially getting back into that "C is not C++" which I know to be true but I didn't realize just how wild the rules are in the C world vs the C++ one, the setjmp/longjmp one being a very pointed example.
 
I actually would have expected that the "guarantees" I am looking for are even more attainable now that we've conjured up a TCC-inclusive model ...
 
It's taken decades to hammer C from something that wasn't consistent into something you need a law degree to understand, and then C++ has been having the same thing happen and it's an even more giant monster.
 
1:00 AM
@HostileFork Yay! NOT
 
Well it's a cautionary tale, and the danger of something like Red/System by ignoring what happened to C and to not frame up how the problem is being attacked differently and learning is high
 
But after my "experiences" with Unicode, I feel I have learned to take baby steps with standards, and wall off the nonsense.
 
Sure, I'm for that
 
I was hoping the same would be possible with, and I do mean, C/C++.
How much, and how clear, I don't know yet.
 
There was... um, something like an embedded standard, different goals
 
1:02 AM
Yah, that rings a bell.
 
Embedded C++ (EC++) is a dialect of the C++ programming language for embedded systems. It was defined by an industry group led by major Japanese central processing unit (CPU) manufacturers, including NEC, Hitachi, Fujitsu, and Toshiba, to address the shortcomings of C++ for embedded applications. The goal of the effort is to preserve the most useful object-oriented features of the C++ language yet minimize code size while maximizing execution efficiency and making compiler construction simpler. The official website states the goal as "to provide embedded systems programmers with a subset of C+...
And you might find that there's some kinship with these splinter efforts that have not gone whole hog with what ISO put out
And if you really are needing the level of control you're asking about and don't want to be removed from the processor, you're probably not happy about Haskell, despite all it has to offer
 
I like what the wikipedia page says, especially (de rigeur) Stroustrup dissing it.
@HostileFork Absolutely true. There's even very few LISPS that I truly like in that way.
 
I remember it had been some number of years since I'd built my own computer
And I decided I needed a new one, so I started ordering parts
 
But I don't need it to be "official", I just need it to be ... workable.
 
And the motherboard came, and I got the case, etc. I was going to just stick it together and then I started reading the instructions
And it's got this gigantic heat sink, with a fan on the heat sink. Ridiculous big
And thermal paste. This is what the manufacturer is sending, mind you.
I'm like "Wait. What? You're overclocking and selling this as a product?"
 
1:08 AM
As long as we set up a complete coding standard, and do not stray from it, can't we say something about the generated code?
 
And... yes. Once a reckless practice, done by non-engineers with chip-death-wishes... had become a market forced thing. Everyone overclocked.
 
Well, beyond what's possible by analyzing/rewriting the compiler, I mean.
 
Well, I'm saying even if you think you can go to the metal and CPU and the spec sheet, it's gone to hell there too.
 
@HostileFork This tale does not have a happy ending, I fear ...
 
Yeah the chip burnt up
 
1:10 AM
@HostileFork There, I knew it, jinx!
 
And I said "screw it" and bought a laptop and haven't built any machines since.
 
@HostileFork I fortunately am all thumbs with anything but a pen, so I was spared that all-too-common experience.
@HostileFork Truly there needs to be a silicon-root revival here ...
I remember working for Nortel and watching the machines mark chips as "dead" ... sometimes only 1 on the entire disk was good.
So all those expensive chips are, well, flukes!
 
The world needs a revolution in general. I remember finding out about them burning out the coprocessors to make the 486sx. There was no cheap way to make a chip without, so they just took perfectly good chips and damaged them so they'd have a cheaper product.
 
That's no way to run a submarine ...
 
I'm like "okay, we are not... the same species, I don't think."
 
1:15 AM
And it's not even at the worst part yet.
They're like this far from randomly generating circuits now.
"Not only do we not know how it works, we can prove no-one else does either."
 
"Using evolution to guide electronic design is nothing new; an evolutionary algorithm and a a few bits of Verilog can turn an FPGA into a chip that can tell the difference between a 1kHz and 10kHz tone with extremely minimal hardware requirements. There’s also some very, very strange stuff that happened in this experiment; the evolutionary algorithm utilized things that are impossible for a human to program and relies on magnetic flux and quantum weirdness inside the FPGA."
 
@HostileFork Awesome link, thanks HF! Reminds of my "glory" days during neural network infancy. Ah, the times we had ...
 
Anyway, the key these days is "behaves as if". Emulation and simulation.
 
@HostileFork That also is not new, Boole was plagued by it as well.
But I think with a careful enough definition of "conforming implementation" and "target platform", we can get out of it just like he did.
 
I think Rebol has its own house to clean
How fast it is, what assembly it generates, is small potatoes to not having itself defined.
 
1:21 AM
@HostileFork Of course, I did say this was a pointless question!
But thanks for coming along with me so far.
 
It's philosophy, it's not pointless.
@MarkI Did you catch my question about whether BIND should let you bind to function values, and then you could return BIND? (or BIND-OF) or whatever as the function value?
 
@HostileFork It is pointless to use the word "philosophy" instead of "pointless" to people who think philosophy is pointless.
And if you don't, you see through it ...
@HostileFork Yes, I did. I think R2 has that? Function contexts?
 
@RebolBot do/2
foo: func [a] [
    print bind? 'a
]
foo 10
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
 
R2 doesn't print objects
 
1:25 AM
@RebolBot do/2
foo: func [a] [
    probe bind? 'a
]
foo 10
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
make object! [
]
== RESULT is an object of value:
 
There you go.
 
There's no acceptable object to return
I mean return the function value itself
 
@HostileFork Because of it being "simulated" on the stack?
 
If it's a closure you can give back an object, but if no closure then function
Yup
if you can find the function value itself from the "fake" context...
And where can you put the function value? How about the self slot :-)
 
1:26 AM
OK, sure then, but would you be able to read/change locals? I mean, is that your purpose?
 
I'm blocking access to locals. No, just arguments.
 
But what would you be accessing outside an invocation? The spec?
 
I dunno. just seems more useful to be able to ask for bind? 'a and get something you could use to make other bind calls with.
"true" isn't a very good answer
@RebolBot
foo: func [a] [
    probe bind? 'a
]
foo 10
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
true
== true
 
It's better than "error: bind cannot return a function context"
 
1:29 AM
Is it better enough to think it's a good idea to do?
 
@HostileFork Good one. Let me ponder.
 
The only downside is that I was going to chew some bits out of that self word for locals counting
And I won't have those bits if I put the function value there
But using the function value in the self slot seems a bit less like a weird hack
I'll figure out the locals count some other way, I think
 
Always think of the future, unless you're pressed for time or space.
:)
Did you hear about what Margaret Atwood did today @HostileFork?
 
Heh, I was going on a bit on some micro-optimization and earl said "oh no, not you too..."
@MarkI Hadn't, but John Nash is dead :-(
 
@HostileFork When? Where? What?
 
@HostileFork I had heard that, very sad.
But back to the realm of the soon-to-be-dead, Mme Atwood just submitted a manuscript.
To the Library of the Future.
No one is going to be able to read it until 100 years from now.
 
Heh
 
Now that's coding for the future!
 
That seems more like putting a book in a time capsule. :-)
 
I kind of want to design a programming language with the idea that it will only be used by people 100 years from now.
It's super-weird, I know.
 
1:36 AM
Agrippa (A Book of the Dead) is a work of art created by science fiction novelist William Gibson, artist Dennis Ashbaugh and publisher Kevin Begos Jr. in 1992. The work consists of a 300-line semi-autobiographical electronic poem by Gibson, embedded in an artist's book by Ashbaugh. Gibson's text focused on the ethereal nature of memories (the title is taken from a photo album). Its principal notoriety arose from the fact that the poem, stored on a 3.5" floppy disk, was programmed to encrypt itself after a single use; similarly, the pages of the artist's book were treated with photosensitive chemicals...
@MarkI Oh there's lots of weird out there... wired.co.uk/news/archive/2010-01/22/…
@MarkI I was grumbling about caching in the code of thread locals, seemed to come from this: rebol.net/cgi-bin/r3blog.r?view=0060
Except the way I said it perhaps made it sound like I was obsessing over it when I wasn't but was just trying to figure out why the code was written how it was
 
@HostileFork OK, thanks, I remember it now.
The 100-year thing I just use as a perspective-puller. Sometimes I can't see the forest for the trees.
 
"This too shall pass."
 
So I take comfort in thoughts like, ASCII will always be there, numbers will always allow leading zeros, you know, future-proof stuff.
@HostileFork Hey! That's anti-future-proof! :)
 
@MarkI 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000FFFFFFFFE0‌​FFFFFFFFE0FFFFFFFFE0FFFFFFFFE0FFFFFFFFE0746318C5C0002D9842000000000000003D1F42000‌​01D1FC1E0002D9842008421E8C620001C17C5E0003D1F4200001F0707C00000000000002D98C62000‌​1D18C5C0213E4214400000003180FFFFFFFFE0FFFFFFFFE0FFFFFFFFE0FFFFFFFFE0FFFFFFFFE0FFF‌​FFFFFE0FFFFFFFFE0FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
 
@HostileFork You've told me that story already!
 
1:50 AM
@MarkI There'll always be territory disputes over numbers and words and such as long as there are different points of view. 8-bit character code sets are a great case study of the phenomenon, and how out of hand it got
I wouldn't say that ASCII or Unicode have any real true future-proofness in them, when compared with something like USCII.
But USCII only shows you one step in the process, because you might not need any kind of "character table" to get to a graphic. But you still need a "table" of some sort in that the symbols have to mean something.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:00 AM
For those who like to play with Parse...

some [parse rule functions](http://codeconscious.com/rebol/articles/parse-kit.html).

odd: parsing-at x [if attempt [odd? x/1] [next x]]
parse [3] odd
 
@Brett Make sure you have the http or https in the parens
 
@HostileFork Hmm, I do..
 
Hmmm.
 
It got stripped somehow.
Oh well.
 
Oh, wait, it's multi line
You can't do markdown in multi line
 
3:03 AM
Aha.
 
And StackOverflow will muck up your URLs unless you do fixed font
Never heard of "parse kit".
 
@HostileFork Just uploaded.
Match: http://codeconscious.com/rebol/articles/introducing-rewrite.html, originally from Gabriele (modified by me), can be used like a find but with parse rules.

>> match {the quick brown fox} [ {brown} | {grey} ]
== "brown fox"
 
Hmmm
@Brett An FYI on @rgchris's application of the word match: youtu.be/nJDJVTyp7jo?t=214
 
match is usually for pattern matching from what I have seen
 
@HostileFork Gabriele Santilli used it in 2006, I just modified it.
 
3:10 AM
I'm not tied to the word MATCH. Could be something else.
 
Rebol's flexible enough to deal with it all :-)
 
@Brett did you see my note yesterday?
 
@rgchris On?
 
yesterday, by rgchris
@Brett ^---- This is one for your page of R2/R3 differences...
 
@rgchris Will do.
Hmm, never got the notification.
 
3:14 AM
There's two differences as I see it: in Rebol 3, the left/right is determined by whether the BITS argument is positive and negative. And the /LOGICAL refinement is 64-bit instead of 32-bit. Perhaps @earl may better explain.
 
Don't think I've ever used shift - will take you word on it. :-)
 
@Brett More fun... :-) github.com/red/red/pull/421
 
3:29 AM
@HostileFork Thanks.
 
Heya @GreggIrwin; is the code you posted on the Google Group what you were going to send me for the Rebol proposals?
 
Yes.
 
All right then. I'll go over it.
@GreggIrwin I was half through converting my website to Lest (or at least Lest-compatible) when Rebolek sent me a nasty bug that made me realize something really bad about Rebol and how it does memory pooling.
So... a lot of what was going on got derailed as I dug into the bugs
I had hoped I'd be able to reassemble it all and get back to the fun design stuff, but it turned out there were just quite a lot of these bugs
 
@HostileFork As Feynman says in a memorable passage from The Character of Physical Law, "Don't ask yourself how it can be like that. If you do, you will go down the drain into a blind alley that nobody has escaped from. No one knows how it can be like that. "
 
@gnat I think at this point I know how Rebol is how it is :-)
 
3:42 AM
Wow. Then you really are the right leader!
 
Er, it takes more than being a programmer to be a leader.
 
Well...let it go to your head I think you are more than just a programmer.
Anyway, I ran across that Feynman quote just a little while ago and I thought it fit Rebol. Then, coincidentally, you gave me the perfect setup with your prior comment! :-?
 
I can also draw ok
 
It was only a few days ago I noticed your eyes actually glower. Maybe that's new since you took on the extra work.
 
@gnat It wasn't a recent change, but early iterations of the fork were built on more of a symmetry. I decided I liked it better asymmetrical.
 
3:49 AM
0
Q: Rebol font size not working

Elijah AndersonFor some reason when I run my code, or even the example codes from the Rebol website, the font size of the GUI texts do not have an effect. I can write: view layout [ text "This should be big!" font [size: 50] ] or even: view layout [ text "This should also be big!" font-size 50 ] but neit...

 
Whoa, new person
 
@HostileFork But hoping you might make Rebol a little more symmetrical. One can at least hope.
 
@gnat I think that picking the right asymmetry is actually what design is
 
As I said a while back, looking forward to the new release. Ok. Going to sleep now. Got to catch a plane early in the early. Gnight all.
 
Gnite gnat
 
3:53 AM
Review at your convenience Brian.
 
red> help parse
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl

USAGE:
    parse input  rules  /case  /part  length  /trace  callback
ARGUMENTS:
     input  [series!]
     rules  [block!]

REFINEMENTS:
     /case
     /part
         length  [number! series!]
     /trace
         callback  [function! [event [word!] match? [logic!] rule [block!] input [series!] stack [block!] return: [logic!]]]
 
My LOOP code I mean.
 
@GreggIrwin Yes, I was actually just looking at split, and it looks like Red has already decided there's no "simple parse"... I think everyone agrees with this
red> help split
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl

USAGE:
    split series  delimiter  /case  /only

DESCRIPTION:
     Return SERIES in pieces split at DELIMITER..
     split is of type: function!

ARGUMENTS:
     series  [series!]
     delimiter

REFINEMENTS:
     /case => Find delimiters strictly..
     /only => Split single elements as series instead of elements..
 
3:55 AM
@GreggIrwin Is that compatible with your split?
(Haven't asked, it just crossed my mind since you were here and I was just looking at that... the loop code reminded me of it, you do a lot of cases, which is good.)
 
Nope, not compatible at a glance.
 
@redbot Wow, function!s nest in specs in Red, do we want that for Rebol I wonder?
 
Mine:
USAGE:
SPLIT series dlm /into

DESCRIPTION:
Split a series into pieces; fixed or variable size, fixed number, or at delimiters
SPLIT is a function value.

ARGUMENTS:
series -- The series to split (Type: series)
dlm -- Split size, delimiter(s), or rule(s). (Type: block integer char bitset any-string)

REFINEMENTS:
/into -- If dlm is an integer, split into n pieces, rather than pieces of length n.
 
@GreggIrwin Argh, have to go look at the ticket again for the wording for the /INTO, something didn't sit with me well about it. By the way, if you missed the sidebar:
May 22 at 19:23, by Respectech
@HostileFork I just talked to Carl. He said he gave the rebol/rebol github keys to Andreas. And also he thinks that @kealist has admin control. He told me he gave Andreas permission to handle the administration of admin privileges. :-)
@GreggIrwin We were talking about it and Andreas wants the bug numbers in the github to be the same as the curecode numbers after import.
 
I wonder if it's Kaj's SPLIT, as it's not in Red proper.
Well, /INTO is now more widely used to spec an output target for series ops.
 
4:01 AM
@GreggIrwin Dunno if you're here for a moment or if I can actually grill you about language design, but I was trying to put together a philosophy of how to explain when a series operation should have a /PART or an /INTO. It seems a slippery slope.
 
I can hang for a moment or three. :-) Jumped in because ChrisRG got on altme about Ren.
 
Should more work be done pushing toward a "smarter" system that can "do the right thing behind the scenes" with COPY/PART and then abstract you...
 
Isn't everything in lang design a slippery slope? :-)
 
Yes, but that only makes the "We nailed it!" moments all the sweeter. :-)
 
<he he> Indeed.
 
4:03 AM
Anyway, consider PRINT
PRINT/PART [{a} {b} {c}] 2
Should you? Shouldn't you?
What guiding principle tells you whether you should have a /PART refinement, or delegate to a COPY/PART on the input?
I found that when working on adapting primitives that I was getting a little bit derailed by it... and it made me think I wanted a more "let the language figure it out"... and it starts devolving into Haskell
Or evolving. Whatever :-)
Is it truly about series manipulation and turing machine mechanics, and keeping you close to "the machine"... ? How far is this to be taken, and why?
I came out saying PRINT probably should not have a /PART refinement.
Without really having a good articulation of why not.
 
I think a good guiding principle is how often something is needed or used. As long as you can still do it other ways, even if less convenient. I don't want everything to be done with composition, but I also don't think every series func should support /PART if it complicates things, and it does. Pragmatics over purity I guess, though I still want things built on a small core of basic ops.
 
@GreggIrwin In an implementation level, I now understand Rebol pretty much... like, completely. And I used to gripe at @BrianH about saying that a function having a refinement cost even if you didn't use it. I thought "if you can't finesse that, you're doing it wrong" ...
 
I have only rarely missed /ONLY on print. If I need to print only part of a series, it's not just the head, unless I'm truncating console output. Then you have the issue of multiline values still polluting the readability, so then you need to trim/lines, etc.
 
I've tended to work with compilers, and not interpreters, and I'm finding that interpreters are a very different beast.
I have defined PRINT/ONLY as a variant of PRINT that does not interject spaces in-between elements and does not add a newline.
 
True interpreters, every char has a cost. :-)
 
4:14 AM
I also think print none, print [none], and print [if 1 > 2 "hi!"] should not output a newline.
 
Your use of /ONLY there doesn't match other uses, which feels odd to me. I know you don't like PRIN and, true, it's not a real word, but it does convey meaning by, itself, being truncated.
 
@GreggIrwin How does it not match other uses?
It's the only sensible interpretation of the word.
 
But we don't have a reference/glossary for refinement names and behavior.
 
There are only so many words for things...
You want a composite operation for the common case...
I wrote the reference. :-) /ONLY means "we know that when you look at this operation at its most foundational level, it would mean 'just do that, not any extra'. But when you say /ONLY you take this common word that usually wants the extra thing and removes the extra."
 
Doesn't match how, e.g., FIND or INSERT interpret it.
 
4:18 AM
Hm? Only insert and don't splice.
>> if/only 1 < 2 ["some" "block"]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== ["some" "block"]
 
Only give me the value, don't do that extra thing you do with the evaluation if it's a block.
 
My expectation would be:
>> b: [1 2 3]
== [1 2 3]
>> print ['x b]
x 1 2 3
>> print/only ['x b]
x [1 2 3]
Which means you wouldn't have to MOLD sub blocks explicitly.
 
I'm skeptical of the usefulness.
 
As I'm skeptical of saying more to get less, I guess.
 
4:23 AM
Well, I do think this is why case studies are quite important
I have only learned and formed my opinion by living by my concepts; writing and testing them.
 
As have the rest of us.
 
But we should get a chance to take a crack at each others' code...
To see if we can show something better.
 
Of course.
 
@GreggIrwin Do you have thoughts on this, for instance? Popular piece of functionality, and I find this bit here to be awful: github.com/rebol/rebol/blob/master/src/mezz/mezz-help.r#L282
I don't want to live in a future where that's how the infrastructure was written.
While Rebol can be poetic sometimes, that's a jigsaw puzzle. It's not going to win love.
 
So what would make it beautiful?
And you know what they say about sausage.
 
4:30 AM
@GreggIrwin Not saying I'm finished, I've been testing ideas. But I am saying that if you think that saving people from molding when they have a block and that's what /ONLY is, I think I have a better idea on that which has shown promise.
 
Aside from 'arg not having any notes about what it contains. "Show me your data structures..." and all.
 
print-args: func [label list /extra /local str] [
		if empty? list [exit]
		print label
		foreach arg list [
			str: ajoin [tab arg/1]
			if all [extra word? arg/1] [insert str tab]
			if arg/2 [append append str " -- " arg/2]
			if all [arg/3 not refinement? arg/1] [
				repend str [" (" arg/3 ")"]
			]
			print str
		]
	]
 
I was just showing what I would expect from PRINT/ONLY, because it would be consistent with other uses of /ONLY.
 
I think /ONLY should mean what I described.
It's not about how blocks are handled, there's no pattern you make with that
It's about "we don't have an infinite number of words"
So even if you take something that could mean something very fundamental, like print out this string and do not add any newlines or spaces... we're taking PRINT at the most literal level we can...
 
Understood. I get the importance of context. I'm just not convinced your proposal is an improvement.
 
4:34 AM
You say "Yeah but a lot of the time you don't want that. We'd like PRINT the word to be a bit more expansive than if you said JUST print"
Well, case studies and usability.
That's the thing I don't see happening, and I also don't see growth
 
What I would say, because my brain works a certain way, is "show me concrete examples that will convince me"
 
@GreggIrwin and look at me working kind of hard, and being maybe a bit mad that I've done this for quite some time actually: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/23463078#23463078
I mean you can read that conversation and for that you will find lots of others.
I do think this revision of PRINT is better. I'm happy to show it. I don't think yours sounds like it's useful.
I'm willing to be proven wrong, but we have to open it up.
It can't be the 10 people who fell in love with a language and don't want to change; that's my point.
 
Mine wasn't a proposal, just an off-the-cuff example of my "Hmmm" expectation.
 
Well mine isn't just a proposal, it's a large working system
About to get larger.
I've had a negative start to the week, haven't felt much like working. Demoralized and what not. But I do think that if you can't look at the above code from help and understand people going "this is not the future" then...
append append str " -- " arg/2
AJOIN? REPEND?
This doesn't sound good.
It looks... bad.
It's all out of order for what it even seeks to accomplish.
Certainly not the future of software, and if you walk up to someone with that and go "this is the future" they have a right to laugh at you. It's not. It's bad.
I did rewrite it, but as it happens, I'd rather not share my rewrite at this moment but let it be a meditation.
(Also, I haven't rebuilt Ren Garden since this Ren/C change, and there's a big shift about to happen, so... er... please hold.)
 
You're burning me out a bit here. I do understand your frustration. I don't like AJOIN because the *JOIN space is too full with slightly similar things. I'm OK with REPEND, but am open to something better as a name of course. Repeated APPENDs, yeah, not great.
 
4:45 AM
@GreggIrwin Well, I've gotta take off myself. Anyway, I like how you paint a lot of case studies and usages in your proposals... and I think that if we took your /ONLY and my /ONLY up against each other you might find my interpretation to be the more interesting one. But we'd have to see. Data.
 
I think the data you seek is putting things out there and seeing what bubbles to the top. We have a flexible language that makes it easy to try things out and see what gains traction.
You can lead a horse to water.
 
I've never done it, so I'm not sure if I can.
They're large. Might run off. I think they run faster than I can.
 
Indeed. Majestic creatures.
 
Maybe I can could get them to drink, but can't lead them anywhere. :-)
 
That's what you get for starting with RPN. ;-)
 
4:49 AM
@GreggIrwin Well for the moment I'll switch off the Rebol Programming Network and watch something else a bit. :-) Nite!
 
In any case, I'm happy to look at examples that make things more beautiful and my life easier.
2
RPN..well played.
 
 
7 hours later…
11:51 AM
Hm. With Gregg's desire to not descend into blocks for /ONLY now I'm a bit wondering if lit words might be used for that. a: 10 b: 20 x: [a b] print [{Hello} x] => Hello 10 20, while a: 10 b: 20 x: [a b] print [{Hello} 'x] => Hello [a b]. I don't recall why I panned this idea before.
 
@HostileFork Because lit-words in print dialect already have a perfectly good meaning, namely, to print the word?
 
Well, words don't print the word, they are best used as in parse to do nested structures. It's really nice that way
Gregg's argument of it being used for /ONLY would be a bit like saying that the sensible interpretation of parse/only would be that nested blocks suddenly become compared by value.
parse/only [[a b] [a b]] [some [a b]] => true, or whatever.
 
Confused. You don't have to enter parse blocks, you can already compare them by value, and you didn't answer my question.
 
Well we already think there's a more useful interpretation of print [apple banana] than to get apple banana. The bias is toward evaluation instead of having to request it
 
But what you said was print ['apple 'banana] will no longer get you apple banana. I asked why.
 
11:58 AM
Well I mentioned I'd had the idea before, and decided against it
But then Gregg wanted the feature, and wanted to put it on /ONLY
So I was just wondering if I should re-look at the idea, given that I'd thought if you wanted mold you'd ask for it
Maybe not.
 
It is possible that print is a bad example dialect, as it is one of the few that is reduced before processing.
 
@MarkI I would say it's not a dialect at all.
 
@rebolek If you mean it's more like a list of things to print, I agree. But that's really a kind of dialect, albeit a (reduced and) simple one.
 
@HostileFork I was reading this the other day, and when it said “if it [/only] did make sense, then it's what should be done by the operation without any refinements!”, it was unclear to me whether you simply wanted to change the name of /only or if you wanted to change the default behaviour of every function to what it's /only refinement now does?
 
@WiseGenius That's an issue on which I changed my mind, once I managed to get my head around what /ONLY could sensibly mean. That actually meant more instances of it, and a cohesive story to tell.
 
12:15 PM
How old is the slideshow?
 
@WiseGenius Couple years now I guess
 
@rebolek And if [[x]] is going to print exactly the same as [[[x]]], namely, x, well, there's semantic space available for dialecting.
 
The /ONLY part is the only bit of it I'd take back.
>> if/only 1 < 2 [print "I actually added /only to IF, UNLESS, and EITHER."]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [print "I actually added /only to IF, UNLESS, and EITHER."]
 
When you can see /ONLY in this new light of "do the more basic form of what you would do, but we'll use the non-/ONLY word to be the compound operation that is more common" it can make sense
So you could always get by if you were only given the /ONLY form; (e.g. there's never anything you couldn't accomplish with the language if you couldn't invoke the operation without /ONLY)
 
 
9 hours later…
9:43 PM
>> b: copy [] insert/dup b 1 32768 compose b
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
 
red> b: copy [] insert/dup b 1 32768 compose b
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl

*** Runtime Error 1: access violation
*** at: 08058485h
 
I saw the problem that causes this... but I didn't know it was one the tests because the tests didn't crash until undefined behavior sanitizer and address sanitizer. Hm. Just another data point on the "valgrind doesn't catch everything" map
If someone feels like reporting it to Red they can, but I'm done w/that.
Mechanically the data stack runs evals during a reduce or compose, and reduce or compose remember where the start of the stack was. Then it goes through and grabs all the values out and pokes them either /INTO a series you give, or makes a new block to put on the stack.
The performance issue is kind of like the performance issue of "what if every function call you made in C/C++ had to check to see if you had enough stack space to push the function". As a systems language there is not a sort of "try/catch" on each function call... you're supposed to reign in your stack usage, and have some guarantees about it... and if you interpret data or code you shouldn't let the shape of that data force an arbitrary stack depth on you.
You can't really "catch" a stack overflow, it does too much damage.
But that's just the story for C and C++, and other systems have other ways of dealing with recursion and encouraging it for more usages...
Adding a cost to every data stack push to see if there's enough space and expanding it otherwise has the one side of that in "paying for the check", but the bigger overall cost is the allowance of an expansion to invalidate pointers into the stack.
Every PUSH thus might take any cached pointers to values thought of as "safe" on the stack and invalidate them.
So... should COMPOSE of a large block throw a "user/Rebol space stack overflow" (pertaining to Rebol's data stack, not the C stack). Or should it work? I carry the impression not being able to compose a 32k element series is a bit weak in this day and age.
 
10:27 PM
But I should point out that with these kinds of issues, it further points out the futility of the idea that unsigned indexes be used for things like sizes... just to make it so you get 2x of 2,147,483,647. There are much weaker points than that; this twenty-something-thousand compose problem is just one
 

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