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12:35 AM
posted on May 10, 2015 by abolka

[Comment] Other suggestions for the attribute name from above wiki article: - throw (R2 legacy) - fallthrough - no-local-return And another suggestion which @HostilFork and I came up with on SO chat: - passthru

 
 
2 hours later…
2:59 AM
So I was poking through the rebol code base and came across the commented out tasking in host-lib.c Did Carl ever mention anything regarding on what direction he was thinking of taking tasking in Rebol 3?
 
3:16 AM
Hey, Kealist. You there??
Iceflow, a question?
 
@iceflow19 - yes, we pushed him to some answer during one Altme session, but I don't rememer the answer. Something along the line of threads internally, but synced, without the hassle for the user, but I might be wrong here ...
 
If I want to initiate a message to someone, but i am not replying to a specific message, how do I do that?
 
@pekr Thanks, I was just curious.
 
3:33 AM
@gnat - when you hover over the name, small arrow appears. Click it, and there are message actions. One of them is - reply to this message. You can also easily address message to some user, just type @ and start typing few letters, it will suggest the names. Just hit tab for the completion ...
 
On the left side, I can do that. But what if someone hasn't posted a message and you only see their icon in the upper right of the screen?
I click on you for exampel and I can "invite this user" "ignore this user" etc. but not send a message to this user..... Yet I've seen HF send messages .
@pekr ok. just got it.
Just start with the @ and start typing the name. I thought I;d previously tried that. ;-/
Q for you.. Has there been any attempt you know of to combine rebol3 with a shell for linux?
I find myself wishiing I could just hang out in a rebol shell instead of running rebol inside bash..... It wouldn't seem...conceptually ... to be that far off. C code to C code.
 
but what you describe is just a message being targetted to the user. Yet it is still public ...
 
as for the question - I don't know about any such attempt. @HostileFork did some interesting experiments with the RenGarden. There is even some video somewhere ...
 
You're saying there is a private message system here??
 
3:43 AM
there is no private message system with the SO chat, afaik ... that's why I say, that even if you target user via @, it is still public ... the user is just notified, he/she was mentioned, can click it and get to the message, even if the discussion might scroll off the screen ...
 
@kealist Was just looking at the question you asked long ago about accessing user defined words. I tried to do/ ask something similar a few weeks ago. I wanted to find user defined words and display their values for debug purposes.
sigh "People come and go so quickly around here!" ..wrong video
 
4:12 AM
@gnat As @pekr mentioned, I thought of this as an interesting idea. youtu.be/0exDvv5WEv4?t=553
 
 
3 hours later…
7:12 AM
>> case [1 < 2 [print "Hello"]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Hello
== true
 
>> case [1 < 2 [<why true for unset?>]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== <why true for unset?>
 
red> case [1 < 2 [print "Hello"]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Hello
 
7:13 AM
The "case returns true on unset" looks like a mistake to me...and Red doesn't do it. Does anyone rely on this behavior?
>> case [1 > 2 [<foo>] 100]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
red> case [1 > 2 [<foo>] 100]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl

*** Runtime Error 1: access violation
*** at: 08065790h
 
8:12 AM
>> any-object? make error! [foo: "Not all errors are objects"]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
I guess it is the case that all errors that the user should be able to see act like objects. But internally, it's confusing. :-/
 
@HostileFork, when it's no trouble, any ideas for a better construction syntax for strict `block!`s in #12?
https://github.com/red/red/wiki/Case-Sensitive-Map!-Keys#12
 
8:37 AM
@WiseGenius == is redundant; I think the singular = isn't terrible because it effectively "tacks on" an =. So [A B C] = =[A B c]
Kind of like why I like the ~ for relaxing values. That might also suggest that ~= and =~ be synonyms.
This is more for illustration and analogy purposes, as you'd have little reason to literally write [A B C] = =[A B c] when you could just say [A B C] == [A B c] (Which in that case you could just replace the whole expression with false.)
So before people get up in arms at finding it notationally confusing, the better question is if Plan -4 wil make it so people can adapt to read x: =[A B c] and see that naturally. (Plan -4 supporters beliving it is likely the case that people can do so.)
 
Where can I read Plan -4?
 
@WiseGenius It hasn't been re-summarized but the debate leading up to it is cc 2094
I remark on it at the end.
 
8:54 AM
is not very accessible unicode, but I used it as default so I could use it visually unambiguously in examples because I thought there would probably be some reason = would be terrible.
Do you think I should just use = instead as the default for examples, or leave it terrible and hope that people comment like they did with ~ vs ~= in #2?
Perhaps I should keep it separate from the Plan -4 debate, but have I already used notation which brings that up anyway? I suppose ~[...] would depend on how special ~ was?
 
@WiseGenius I hope Plan -4 doesn't wind up being a longer debate than it has already.
I'd just use = for now; there is no way the language is going to move to unicode for features like that.
 
I wasn't expecting it to. The suggestion that I might is already a good reason to change it.
Besides, I'd be more interested in people's suggestions they were to think = is terrible.
On the topic of unicode, I have a totally different question out of curiosity: Do you think it would be terrible if Red could use “...” in addition to {...} and "..."?
Wait... Have I already asked you this?
“”
 
If it would support “...” then it needs to support „...“ also.
 
9:14 AM
@WiseGenius It would probably be terrible. :-) But the requirement I feel is good to impose is that if characters are too visually similar that at minimum, they not be usable for different things when not encoded inside of a string. (applying that rule to things like periods and commas, or backticks and apostrophes).
So if there were to be alternative quote forms allowed in source, “...", “...“, “...”, ”...“ must all behave the same.
I personally fail to see the advantage.
The comma and period equivalence in numbers is already something where I wonder if it's really giving back much, considering.
Some other things, like euro symbols on money! for instance, might be worth it.
 
@HostileFork I absolutely wouldn't like it then, seeing as I'd want them to have the advantage of matching like {...}.
 
Then use {...} :-)
 
You've probably noticed, I use them all the time in ordinary writing, like “this”, because I like that advantage. I've noticed people try to quote each other on forums like "this", and then they try to nest those quotes like "this" again, and it's just awful! I think all English keyboard layouts should be like mine, haha!
 
@WiseGenius {I've noticed people try to quote each other on forums like "this", and then they try to nest those quotes like "this" again, and it's just awful!} The braces stand out better...are rarely used in most normal English writing, and have a visibility advantage. Perhaps you could start a trend by using them instead. :-)
 
@HostileFork Nope! Haha! I use braces for other things in English!
In the last link you gave me, Ladislav said, {"I don't give much weight to "typographical standards". This is not a newspaper, its a programing language." - The purpose of typographic standards is to keep the text human-readable. You may prefer unreadable syntax, but I do not mind what kind of text I read, I prefer it to be readable anyway.}
 
9:28 AM
@WiseGenius :-{
 
It's a bit ironic, in that it sounds like he is saying something similar to me, yet in the same breath he nests quotes the way I don't like. I tried to make it more ironic by using curly braces to quote him.
@HostileFork :-”
 
@WiseGenius I'd say he's actually saying what I'm saying. The adaptation it takes to curly braces for quoting is not a typographical standard that exists today...but it has superior properties. I think your concept of pairing the quotes is rather subtle as visibility goes, to be able to tell when you're closing or opening another quote level. Certainly quite difficult to see in small print, and how subtle the distinction is depends on the font.
 
@HostileFork True about the fonts. When using backticks, it looks the same as each other. At least in this browser, anyway.
But I would argue that it's better than "this", and "this" is what people are expecting. I would expect {this} to confuse people, especially if they weren't rebolers.
 
I actually like code in proportional fonts, which introduces more visibility ambiguity than fixed fonts tend to. lI1||I1lll|
 
@WiseGenius There should be a law against backticks.
Or a compilation error if one is encountered in a script even if it is only in the comments
 
9:43 AM
@iArnold That would make it difficult to make remarks about how you are doing backtick processing in something like a markdown processor.
 
@iArnold Haha! Then I would be the biggest offender. I use them for all code in Markdown. I probably overdo it, especially if you find this unreadable.
 
I think it's enough to prohibit them as word characters and not allow them in non-string/non-char-literal lexical contexts.
 
I was a bit ambiguous there. What I meant is that when I use backticks in Markdown, it makes “this” look like “this” which looks like "this" in my browser.
 
@WiseGenius So you think you have " but in fact they are other species. Useally very impractical especially if only " was meant in the first place. Guess what I do with the autocorrection function of my wordprocessors ;-)
 
9:59 AM
If REDUCE was going to get its own symbol, what might it be?
repend [...] [...] => append [...] XXX [...]
Obviously REDUCE can be used there, but since people like abbreviation, I wonder if REDUCE is foundational enough to deserve something shorter for those who wanted it.
I dunno. REDUCE seems fine.
 
 
2 hours later…
11:46 AM
>> switch/default 2 [1 [print "Shouldn't happen..."]] <no block>
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== none
 
>> switch/default 2 [1 [print "Shouldn't happen..."]] [<with block>]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== <with block>
 
@redbot delete
red> switch/default 2 [1 [print "Shouldn't happen..."]] "no block"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
*** Script error: switch does not allow string for its case argument
*** Where: switch
*** Stack: do-console all not unset? set do first head reduce do* _execute if all not unset? set do first head reduce do* switch
 
11:51 AM
Rebol should either put a BLOCK! type requirement on the default case or allow you just throw in a value there that's not in a block. Haven't stayed up to date on Red's plans regarding the difficulty of compile-time telling which values are matches or blocks, when fallthrough is allowed besides strict alternation... if there was strict alternation in the switch body, you could better argue that raw non-block values be allowed there too.
 
 
4 hours later…
3:21 PM
@gnat I will be back home tonight. I'll either look at my script then or in the morning and let you know if there is anything useful but I may not have made much progress on that
 
If you have made much progress I would be surprised and delighted. It seems to me that although rebol is touted as self reflective, when you try to look inside everything is either walled off or semi psychotic! :-/ Well, certainly not transparent.
Maybe that is because it used to be proprietary and carl didn't want people decompiling his work or something. I don't know. But there isn't much sign of trustworthy architecture. That is what I hope red and rebol 4 will improve.
Anyway, a simple debugging tool which prints the current value of words would seem to be both highly desirable to the community and pretty easy to implement in a 'reflective' language which puts such emphasis on string manipulations, data organized as blocks, parsing, etc.
For some reason it doesn't exist. And that is puzzling to me. And kind of disturbing.
 
3:41 PM
BrianH seemed to know quite a bit about the architecture of rebol3. I've been using almost exclusively rebol2 and red, I should clarify that. I'll go play with r3 a bit now. I think/hope HF will put some emphasis on architecture and consistency if he survives the immediate challenges of the underworld.
 
 
1 hour later…
4:59 PM
After playing with r3 and more with red, a utility to print names and values of all user defined words seems more tractable. Biggest problems may be (1) r2/r3/red dictionary differences (2) distinguishing user defined words from system and (3) my own ignorance+frustration. I apologize for use of the word "psychotic". :-&
 
5:12 PM
Which is a bug? Or are they both?
--== Red 0.5.3 ==--
Type HELP for starting information.

red>> z: :print
== make native! [["Outputs a value followed by a newline" value [any-...
red>> print: 3
red>> print
red>> print print 3
red>> z print
3
red>> print: :z
== make native! [["Outputs a value followed by a newline" value [any-...
red>> print print
unset
unset
red>> print z
unset
unset
red>> print 3
3
red>>
or in rebol2/core: >> z: :print
>> z "hello"
hello
>> print: 3
== 3
>> print 3
== 3
>> print "hello"
== "hello"
>> :print
== 3
>>
Ok. reb2 is okay. red not so much.
 
5:43 PM
@gnat We'll have to see if I survive or not, not sure. But I am sure that the code is coming under control. Just doing some stack balancing--all natives and actions that do not trap errors are required to manage the stack such that the net stack delta is zero... lots of stack cleanup in general.
@gnat Looks like Red being buggy. You could file that one very simply:
@redbot
print: 3
type? print
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== integer!
 
Hmm. In the console for that I'm getting nothing back, when I should get (as above) integer!. Maybe it's a console problem?
 
So putting something through redbot will pretty much automatically get the possible bug to someone on that team? Or should I go to red development and run it from there?
@HostileFork I saw your response about rencpp/garden being a unix shell replacement? It is still on my to do list to compile those and try those under linux (right after i get a linux system running).
 
@gnat If it's reproducible in the console (and I can reproduce it here) I think it is enough to just start simple with what is probably at the core of the problem, file an issue on GitHub. "Run red console. Enter print: 3. Then enter print. Console shows nothing, expect 3. type? print shows no output."
@gnat I had an informal goal that I'd basically try and make Ren Garden good enough that I would use it and not really look back; and the concept of being able to use it instead of shell programming was a part of that.
 
6:00 PM
What is rencpp vs rengarden?
rencpp was just "binding to c++"?
and garden was the all-in-one shell, debugger, ide?
 
@gnat RenCpp is a C++ binding. It has no UI. It is a way of embedding Rebol (and in the future, Red) code into C++... calling them from each other or calling back and forth. Ren Garden started as a test to make sure it had necessary hooks, and then showed promise so I kept enhancing it.
 
Ok. Sorry I had to ask that after all this time. So...what stops you from making it a replacement for bash?
 
My likely goal if I am forced to fork Rebol will be as RenC; essentially the guts needed by RenCpp to do its work. The hostkit API was conceived in a time when Rebol was not open source, and had a very haphazard and unfinished way of trying to provide a few interfaces without exposing the internals of Rebol very much. You could not do very much with the API besides send it a string in and get a string-like thing back.
@gnat Rebol's incompleteness, and time.
 
(There are obviously many possible strategies for influencing rebol/red development and acceptance. Can't think of one more direct and than providing a solid bash replacement).
 
Well, if everyone lines up and promises their coding time, design time, or finances to make things happen...things might happen. Otherwise things happen as they do, on the timescale that they do.
 
6:08 PM
(BTW, I really hate being this guy back-seat-driving what you "should" do. I want you to know that. I don't think you "owe" anything to anyone but yourself. I just would so much like to see this thing BOTH get cleaned up and move forward.)
 
Well, everything helps, and you learning and asking questions and filing bugs moves things along some. You could also write articles summarizing what you've learned. Or you can go forth and do the RenCpp/RenGarden build and help with the design and implementation of that.
 
If I load a linux OS I can just download and run a binary?
(I've never worked with c++, only c..and a long time ago)
 
There are no automated builds at present, but the build process has been successfully done by many people. It will be easiest if you use a KDE/Qt based distribution like Kubuntu.
While I'd like an automated process to come on-line which offers packaged installers and such, I also would like as many people as possible to take a crack at getting the build instructions vetted and make sure it can be done on many platforms easily.
(Because it would help far more to have people who could read, modify, and contribute than to be burdened with "users" at this point... I'm not all that interested in getting any feature requests from people who aren't willing to put in some elbow grease to make it happen. I will assist and point to the locations where things are done.)
And I do not feel the code is all that intimidating. I comment heavily and clearly.
 
This may not be reasonable for some reason I don't know, but I suspect you would get more traction (at least people playing with it a bit) if you specified a linux and just provided a binary download. Many people in the community are going to get shy as soon as you start talking about kde+linux+c++....
 
Then it's not time for them to participate.
 
6:16 PM
Well.... It isn't time for me to participate really, either. But I want to help with your effort anyway and I still am curious. ;-/
Would it be HARD to provide ONE binary download for a specific but easily downloaded linux dist?
I know that binary would probably out of date as soon as anyone reports a bug or you put in 10 more minutes of dev time, but it would get people thinking.....
 
The steps are easy and only going to get easier. Get VirtualBox. Download a Kubuntu ISO (32-bit will be fine). Follow the instructions for your platform
 
What is cool about the community - and you in particular - is that you have included me from the beginning, even though we both knew you could have just shunned me until I (maybe) bootstrapped myself more. But you didn't. the community didn't...hasn't.
 
@gnat It would indeed get out of date, and it would lead to me having to hand-hold and support installation questions which are not relevant to my already overburdened line of work on things that actually (in the grand scheme of my life) probably shouldn't be priorities in the first place. But I will happily make you Kubuntu one-click czar. The thing I'm willing to hand-hold you through is making the build happen and bringing you up to speed on that, vs. adding another strand.
 
Ok. I will let that go..... Until I followup on my end.
 
@gnat A welcoming group. :-)
 
6:23 PM
Different question: I was about to post a public question and want to run it past you in theory first. Is there an obvious way to distinguish a user defined word from one precompiled into the system? native? would see to be the one, but it is too persnickety.
c/obvious/trivial
 
@gnat NATIVE? is not a test of a word, rather it is a test of the function value to which a word is bound. You cannot do source on a native because it doesn't have a body implemented as Rebol code... it's C code that manipulates the Rebol values internally with a low-level API.
@RebolBot
block-with-function-in-it: reduce [:print]
probe type? first block-with-function-in-it
probe native? first block-with-function-in-it
print mold/all block-with-function-in-it
 
I know that. At least that it is inadequate (more than persnickety). But it seems such an obvious question...such an obvious need. But when I set out to make the distinction (I only want to find values for words I defined) I can't.
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
native!
true
[#[native! [[
        "Outputs a value followed by a line break."
        value [any-type!] "The value to print"
    ]]]]
 
And kealist couldn't either. And brianH doesn't have a full answer either (he at least helped advance the question). But it would seem pretty basic.
 
This is something you have brought up before. I guess the thing is that Rebol isn't transactional; it's not like a version control system where it retains memories of the past. If you add something to a block, remove it, and add something else...as far as baseline Rebol is concerned there is no way to tell.
You could run some sort of diff between the system and user context, of course that would only tell you about what you set in that context. What about modules, objects, other things?
 
6:31 PM
Yes. So I am going to ask the question formally. Not so much expecting a simple answer but getting the community engaged. Hopefully making an impact on red and rebol4 :}
 
If you cite a narrow example of what you want...such as x: 10 print: 20 in the console, and want something to come back and say "you changed x from UNSET! to 10, and PRINT from a NATIVE function to INTEGER! 10" then sure.
 
rebol3 would have had it, except carl for some reason decided that even referencing a system level word would put that word into the space.
 
For the very narrow circumstance of "I started up the system and it had a state at that time" and "I set some things in a global context", you may diff those. I'm not sure what problem that solves exactly.
 
Can't imagine why he did that, btw. If I pulled a print: 3, sure. But short of that?
 
The binding model basically depends on it.
 
6:33 PM
Well, you have the same issue in your rengarden debug I'm sure.
Ok. Well you answered my question; if YOU don't think the answer is obvious/trivial then probably nobody else does, either.
 
Well, I'm picking apart things one bit at a time, I don't claim to understand every decision and the little bits of it that are outside the aesthetic at the user level do get tricky.
It might be that one could get away with not pulling something like print into the user context just by using it is possible or desirable. I'm getting closer to being able to try such things and see what breaks.
 
In forth the dictionary was pretty trivial. You had a list of word names which pointed to the (threaded) code chain. There was a pointer to the end of the system level words and another which got moved as user added new definitions.
 
But given the way words work, that binding would often wind up permanent. So you would lose flexibility. The ability to write print: 3 is important if you want to retake print, but how do you have that opportunity if it wasn't pulled in?
 
I know forth's simple threading model wouldn't be super efficient, but 300-500 isn't THAT many system words even in rebol. I will eventually have to look at your c code, to get a better appreciation for why this was made so opaque.
 
print "Hello" print: 3... if I write that, what is the alternate point of view? Do you really want it to let you overwrite the system context print? I'd heard that the whole system context was going to be protected, but I saw recently that had been commented out...so I don't know what the deal is about that.
 
6:41 PM
In case you didn't see kealist's question: stackoverflow.com/questions/17713950/…
 
Looks to be answered.
Anyway, I consider the ability to retake words to be very important... and the ability to use-and-then-retake. To me it is like a game of Nomic:
Nomic is a game created in 1982 by philosopher Peter Suber in which the rules of the game include mechanisms for the players to change those rules, usually beginning through a system of democratic voting. Nomic is a game in which changing the rules is a move. In that respect it differs from almost every other game. The primary activity of Nomic is proposing changes in the rules, debating the wisdom of changing them in that way, voting on the changes, deciding what can and cannot be done afterwards, and doing it. Even this core of the game, of course, can be changed. Nomic actually refers to a...
 
I just found out today he had pretty much EXACTLY the same desire for a simple debug utility that I had (have). My guess is a lot of newbies, at least, would really like to see their words in one place with current values.
 
What if I said print: 10 and then print: system/lib/print. Is print "my word" anymore, or does it lose being my word once I pointed it back to something in system?
 
No, it isn't answered, although it is helpful. But red and r2 have different models, so what should (could) be abstracted or better organized and made useful, isn't. :-/
As soon as someone redefines a word it is a "user" word, of course. But simply using a function shouldn't make it a user function.
What are you gonna do once you start multitasking??
 
@gnat "of course" is a matter of perspective.
 
6:48 PM
I guess. I'm sure there are more than a few perspectives from which I am an obnoxious pain in the butt! :-) (Sometimes I even see myself that way:0)
 
It would be possible to track a bit to tell if a set-word or set was ever executed by the evaluator on a word after a binding.
You could just set one of the ext bits on the "UNWORD"s of a frame keys (it would further confuse these artificial FUNC frames though, but no worse in particular than any of their other problems).
But you would pretty much have to point at the context you wanted to see all the variables you set in.
It would get very noisy and slow if you ran like the GC over every series in the system, and I'm not sure how valuable you'd find the output
 
Well, in rebol3 there are 3 different name spaces and user is only one of them. But then it gets commingled...for reasons which totally escape me and make me wonder why carl bothered to set up 3 spaces to begin with!
So keeping a separate name space isn't the issue...can't be..at least I don't see how it can.
 
I'm not sure what you mean by "keeping a separate name space"; again too abstract.
You are asking for the user to "know what words 'they' set".
 
And think of the organization that would give you. Or you could just set a bit to distinguish user names from system. And you are going to have to make that distinction anyway when you go multitasking.
 
The problems with multitasking have little to do with system or user anything.
 
6:56 PM
>> words-of system/contexts
== [root sys lib user]
 
But back to the terminology being used. This "words I set" vs. "words I didn't set". If you didn't set them, who did? How do you tell the difference? What does it mean if a startup script does something, is that "you" or someone else?
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-cannot-use.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: cannot use reflect on logic! value
** Where: reflect words-of
** Near: reflect :value 'words
 
root is an implementation detail, shouldn't really be exposed, except for the fact that some of the configured-by-rebol autogeneration didn't do something more clever to hide it.
sys is natives, set up before lib is built to contain the mezzanine. It's a by-product of bootstrap, and I think it's all important in lib. So you can think of it as another implementation detail IIRC; haven't looked at that recently.
 
print "hello" doesn't change what code print points to, does it? At least not in the sense that print: "hello" does?
 
>> set first [print] "hello"
 
6:59 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== &quot;hello&quot;
 
prinz: :print is user defined, okay.
 
If you're trying to propose that set-words be treated by the core evaluator something like the way that function gathers locals, that might be possible, but it's a large change. In a way some of what's interesting about function's locals-gathering is precisely that it isn't imposed by the system... you're in a freeform environment that lets you build your own notions of "scoping" and how the parts fit together.
And you also get into some trouble because unlike a function body scanned all at once, the code is coming in line by line
 
Is there any way to get a unique identifier (subsittute for a pointer) back on a particular word? I could see some great hacking possibilities coming from that!
 
What would a unique pointer to a word act like?
It would be technically possible to modify the spelling of all existing loaded instances of a word, sort of. Even that's tricky if there's case-preservation.
 
It would allow indirection to labels and thence to word definitions.
Rebol has this cool thing where functions adapt their behavior based upon type and source of data, see? :-)
It would allow you to look inward and even (at least in rebolX) perform brain surgery on yourself.
Now, some people would say a mere programmer shouldn't be allowed to write code which performs brain surgery on itself. But some people would have outlawed lisp and half the cool things which come from eval.
 
7:07 PM
You are suggesting the idea of finding the location of the last assignment?
 
Well, the code obviously knows how to find it. So why does it have to play coy?
 
It certainly can't know if the code which assigned the thing has been garbage collected.
Moreover, it might have been restructured and no longer look anything like what it did at the time of assignment.
 
Other than - possibly - having to deal (in rebolX) with race conditions, what is the big deal? It seems like you almost have to go out of your way to come up with a system which is so complicated you CAN'T find out where a word came from. Or maybe be Microsoft...:-/
 
As it happens, my work at Microsoft was perhaps up your alley if this is the sort of thing you are interested in...because that's the kind of system you need to do any such things correctly.
 
I may have to accept that there is something about the implementation restraints which is beyond me at the moment. I've never written nor debugged a garbage collector.
Ohhhh! sorry! no offense!
 
7:14 PM
I think what you need is really just a little more time grasping what the system is, exactly. Rebol is far more freeform and less able to identify the location where an assignment happened than a compiler or non-homoiconic interpreted language like JavaScript could.
@RebolBot
code: [foo: 10]
do code
code: none
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== none
 
@RebolBot
code: [foo: 10]
change code (to-lit-word first code)
reverse code
probe code
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
[10 'foo]
== [10 'foo]
 
They are symbols, running through a meat grinder. There is nothing pointing at anything, except for the binding...that's the only real "pointer" you have going on. You can't go back and find the point of assignment after the fact because it's... gone.
 
do you think is is a mistake (or pointless) to ask the opening question (how can I get a list of words I've defined) in public? Or might it produce some interesting results?
(of course the binding. If I bound them explicitly they are "mine" enough that I want to see them, at least.
 
7:19 PM
Now the nice thing about being paradigm neutral is that you can come up with your own systems pretty easily that follow your DSL rules, and may not even be Turing-complete...where you control more of the situation and can come up with features that leverage whatever you like. Of course you can do that in any language. (They're all equivalent at the end of the day...)
With x: object [a: 10 b: 20]... are the a and b fields of object "mine"? Did I define them? Or just x?
 
If God can do anything, can God create a wall that God can't climb over??
 
useless discussion ahead
 
Okok. Forget I asked that! :-)
 
You would not have liked my other answer ;-)
 
@gnat My question is not meant to be abstract. Rather to say that if we imagine all "values" to which words can be bound in the system to be "yours" or "not yours", we can start from that point... because that is the point you wanted to start from. You used the terms "words" and "mine" and "modified".
Imagine I can give you a bit on each such value that can be bound to (I can)
I have to come up with rules for setting them.
I could start by having a rule that until a certain defined point, all such things will be "not yours". That point can be wherever you like.
Is it before your startup script finishes? When you're given a console prompt? Etc.
Do you want a switch that lets you decide whether to count certain parts of your startup script as "yours" or not? Is this a mode where you can say not-me-mode vs me-mode, where changes done by some functionality will not be considered to pollute your radar with things it might falsely call "yours"?
I understand the concern of looking in the user context to see "what's there" and finding it to seem strange, when it starts off empty-ish and then begins to fill up with all kinds of things you don't feel like you wanted.
"This isn't my context! It's not for the 'user'! Rebol is using it as its personal trash bin and throwing all kinds of junk in there!"
I was a bit disappointed to find that out myself when I saw it at first; I'd have liked a nice orderly object. I was more disappointed when I found things like copying contexts had never been tried or done, and so my multiple-contexts-for-multiple-tabs function in Ren Garden didn't work smoothly and I had to poke around in code that was not easy to read or understand the implications of.
 
7:32 PM
In a way, that is what Forth did. As I said, it had a "pointer" to where parts of the dictionary were. A system pointer and a user pointer, basically. You could reorganize to incorporate new functionality into the kernel or you could explicitly load things after kernel startup. Or you could throw things away. Now the memory model was prehistoric, as it was on the Os1. But the functionality and power it gave were real enough.
And I fail to see why, even with a complicated /hardware protected memory model there is any reason why something equivalent couldn't be ..wouldn't be.. built in. Especially with Rebol: reflective, dsl, etc. etc.
 
It doesn't hurt to have options. Certainly an option which says "I don't intend to redefine anything from system/lib and if I am going to, I'll tell you in advance...so don't pull those in automatically, just bind to their definitions there.
 
Ok. Well I don't want to go endlessly around and around. At some point I will look at the c code, at least, and see if I can follow it enough to see why look up of words and following to what they reference was made opaque. It would seem like making it clearer would have been easier... Or at least easier to debug.
 
You might wait until after I've finished my sweep on that. Building RenGarden is a better bet.
It essentially sounds like in order to have a feature you liked from Forth which you used in the past that you want to see a model of operations that would undermine several of the interesting bits of function of how Rebol works.
One thing I'll say is that the absence of clear module functionality and documentation has probably kept us from seeing and trying as many interesting options as we might for having different subsystems work in different ways and localize their decisions.
Okay...sys context is actually Rebol source code that is called directly from C to implement certain functions the C code wants. I actually knew that but hadn't immediately made the connection.
 
@HostileFork Well put. Totally agree. It's all a black box to most of us. And I think it is, in fact, three (r2,r3,red) different black boxes. containing more black boxes. Black boxes all the way down. Or turtles. ;-/
 
Myself, I just want to see the nice parts put together nicely and literately enough that they can be appreciated. It's hard in a word of PAREN! and REMOLD and PRINT REJOIN and other things that make it look like gibberish. Why isn't BLOCK! called BRACK! ?
 
7:46 PM
@HostileFork Oh! any idea how much longer for a first cut? (I get the idea you are a bit of a perfectionist and may be afraid to release even a beta too soon....but keep in mind you didn't write this, you are just trying to simplify and comment it as a first cut).
 
Fixing names, fixing the function of core natives, getting missing things in there, giving people stuff like expression barriers,...
@gnat I don't know. But I just managed to build my website with a massively overhauled stack model. However, that drew my attention to a major potential problem where stack expansions could invalidate pointers, so now I want to force stack reallocations on every call. Things like that.
I find things constantly. Weirdly, I didn't even notice that the sizeof(wchar_t) was 4 on this machine, yet code was using wcslen() when Rebol uses UCS2 internally. The reason it appeared to work is actually kind of funny. But long story short...nasty bug.
@earl --^
Pretty big stress test...just passed valgrind with flying colors:
==27904==
==27904== HEAP SUMMARY:
==27904==     in use at exit: 0 bytes in 0 blocks
==27904==   total heap usage: 115,881,103 allocs, 115,881,103 frees, 6,044,277,810 bytes allocated
==27904==
==27904== All heap blocks were freed -- no leaks are possible
==27904==
==27904== For counts of detected and suppressed errors, rerun with: -v
==27904== ERROR SUMMARY: 0 errors from 0 contexts (suppressed: 0 from 0)
 
Congrats! Just reading your distillation of the experience I'm having bad-trip flashbacks to the days I used to consider myself a programmer!
 
8:11 PM
@gnat Well there's fun stuff and less fun stuff, so hopefully you can get interested in the proposals and learning the languages themselves...it's not necessary to code in C or chase down memory bugs to help.
 
8:56 PM
@gnat In Rebol 2, that is doable:
>> query/clear system/words
...
>> foo: 1
== 1
>> bar: 2
== 2
>> query system/words
== [foo bar]
>> foreach word query system/words [print rejoin [:word ": " mold get :word]]
foo: 1
bar: 2
>>
@gnat In Rebol 3, it involves more trickery. Basically, save the words defined in system/contexts/user as a baseline, compare to that baseline, but filter out all words that have the same value as their system/contexts/lib counterpart.
base: words-of system/contexts/user
foo: 1
bar: 2
print [foo bar]
foreach word probe difference base words-of system/contexts/user [
    if not same? get/any :word get/any in system/contexts/lib :word [
        print rejoin [:word ": " mold get/any :word]
    ]
]
Something like the above. Try at a console.
 
9:27 PM
@gnat There's actually arbitrarily many namespaces. Every context is one (objects, modules, functions, ...). There's a few well-defined system-provided namespaces. As for the reasons, maybe the following article by Carl helps illustrating a bit: rebol.net/r3blogs/0334.html
 
9:39 PM
@HostileFork I think BLOCK! isn't called BRACK! simply because that does not exist as an abbreviation in common English usage. Paren, on the other hand, is widely used, colloquially.
 
 
2 hours later…
11:16 PM
@gnat I think @HostileFork has solved some of this well in RenGarden, with a watch dialect. I looked through my code briefly and did not see anything permanent, so I was probably just typing it all out in console and what you see in the Q&A is all I wrote.
Another interesting type of IDE that is out there (R2) is Hammer by Maxim, but it takes some time to get a sense of his liquid. I think Liquid works in R3, but the glass system (or his redesign of R3/View) is yet to appear publicly at least. Although that's probably not relevant to the whole idea of tracking words
some of that probably sounds odd without liquid
 
wtf
rebol's read doesn't have a "https" scheme?
fuck this shit
 
11:31 PM
@AlexanderGuo The atronix r3 builds do have the https scheme - atronixengineering.com/downloads.html
The changes here have not been merged back in to the mainline build. I am not sure of the exact reasons for this
 
thanks for that, @johnk
 
@gnat I will agree with @HostileFork on the idea that as I got more experienced with Rebol (still a noob), that my idea of tracking words was a little fuzzier than I first thought.
 

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