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02:00 - 07:0007:00 - 00:00

7:00 AM
@HostileFork Its one of those things were I'd grasp it immediately on paper, but not described to me.
 
@iceflow19 Come now. You see the sphere. It is concentrated. It expands. But it does so without a requirement of elasticity; it's just jointed, right?
There's no rubberbandedness
It's just collapsed joints that when expanded expands
 
"Each layer of nanotech rectangular hobermann prism accounts for the missing space in the other layers" This is whats throwing my mental image off.
 
@iceflow19 Well slow me down and let's go back to you watching the video and absorbing, what I assume is you understanding how a Hobermann sphere works.
I'm just trying to say, no elasticity, just joints.
One nice thing about being "just joints" is that we are building all kinds of crazy nano now that is very good at doing this, and if you haven't been following the graphene work, it's slick stuff
So to speak :-)
 
Ya and I understand that. Perhaps we're quantifying the same concept diferently.
language argh
 
All right, let's stick to the sphere then
@iceflow19 You could write a computer program, couldn't you, that if a light were on every joint of the sphere know the position of the light based on knowledge of the expansion distance?
 
7:04 AM
Correct.
 
The sphere flexes through a very predictable range of motion, from it's compressed to expanded state.
 
Yes
 
And, if you have a sensor of some kind, you can know in 3D where every joint is.
Now just make a small mental leap
It's not a sphere, it's a rectangular prism.
Same basic idea
Now, stack them
Layer them, so that when they expand, they have different formulas... e.g. the points that would be gaps in the other layers are node points in their expansion
Points that would be vacant in the prism above, are occupied in the prism below
Now, project your image by way of knowledge of the expansion
Meet an iphone that can be collapsed up and down to an ipad
Contingent on some carbon nanofiber stuff, but it's about to come
 
I see what your saying.
 
Well, you can build a prototype and patent it even if you're 2-3 years away from it being built
Except, you might say "hold on, what's the catch?" :-)
 
7:08 AM
Correct, Mr Used Cars Salesman :)
 
could implement it now with today's tech to make giant billboard displays from something you can carry under your arm
 
These things always kind of trip me out
I wondered for a long time, why can they stretch big and small but constant mass?
Turns out to be pretty simple.
I still admittedly sometimes get hung up on nuclear
Like "oh no, I won't read up enough to understand it"
Well, at some point I have to.
 
@HostileFork the only thing is that the sphere gets larger radially out from a point, but I'm not sure how a cubic layout would work if you expect inter-pixel distances to remain uniform for a given size
 
@Adrian It will have skew
But human eyes are forgiving, that's why CRTs work
 
@HostileFork Yep
 
7:15 AM
personally, I think physical display hardware has its days numbered
 
@Adrian I'm emboldened by having seen them, so I assume, that despite my weakness in topology that what happens is that the skew twists the prism as it flattens, and the thing is there's just enough layers that you can adjust the skew
One skew accounting for the other
@iceflow19 sorry, I get this way sometimes, when I feel frustrated and think "maybe I have a message for the youth of today" :-)
I probably don't. Ren Garden is the thing I'm supposed to work on, when I don't drift.
People are being receptive. I shouldn't defocus.
 
@HostileFork Its fine. My trouble is that people say I think to much, whether its philosophy, science or whatever.
 
I just died laughing.
 
We aim to please. (And/or kill you.)
 
7:22 AM
lol
 
Anyway, so if we can take the focus away from nanotech ipad/iphone stretchy things
Which BTW, is probably worth more than what we're working on here
What should the Ren Garden / RenCpp video be about
Adrian says 20 minutes is acceptable for the length
I was thinking 15
 
@HostileFork this page shows a cube that expands, but what I imagine would work better for a display wouldn't expand in the way shown here. The diagonals would, but the rest of the cube could be filled in with parallel sectional planes where the scaling happens only along the plane.
 
@Adrian Hey good link, I knew there must be one
Hadn't found that
So odds are, as with most things, you'd build it out of cells
 
Any where between 15-20 is fine, but I might go with the shorter.
 
The idea of some large rectangular prism schematic, is probably too much inspired by seeing the sphere and thinking "oh you could build it that way"
What you'd do is you'd make those cells in a grid, at some granularity
The "elasticity" as it were, comes from the edges
So the only elastic part is on the frame
 
7:27 AM
swat I was trying to convey
well, the inside of the frame needs to be able to scale, but only along the plane of the particular frame
 
Well, there are those pointer things
They're not nanotech, but you could use similar ideas.
They're concentric and kind of lock in to have a range of extension.
I bet, there are better ideas than that, I'm just throwing it out there.
My experience with those gadgets does make me think "there must be better" because if that was what was on the frame it would be too sticky, and as I said I have used these, so I'm reverse engineering them
They weren't sticky
 
Still, my point about physical display hardware going the way of the dodo still stands. Microsoft's HoloLens (and Magic Leap's tech) are just the beginning of this
 
Eh. Hands, feet, eyes
Dodo stuff
Some people like dodos. Go figure.
I have no argument if you're going to say "let's all stop playing", in fact, sometimes I say that.
 
Eh I wouldn't rule out augmented reality tech yet.
 
8:29 AM
Perhaps twisting the rules, but I started a new answer to the Codegolf question to which @draegtun provided an answer: codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/44680/…
The argument I give is that I want to showcase some features unique to Rebol 2 (draegtun's answer is specific to Rebol 3), but of course my motivation is to make Rebol come up twice in the list :-)
So it would be nice if you could all vote for that one. Though I don't think I can count on @HostileFork for a vote on Rebol 2 :-P ;-)
 
@mydoghasworms -2
@mydoghasworms I think, people only have a little bit of patience for Rebol, one has to not feel like you're spamming them... I'd personally not go this direction, just because attention is limited
We have a lot of Rebol 2 / Rebol 3 / Red questions, where it doesn't feel like a "unified front", and I am sort of notorious for saying the unified front is important, but also saying the unified front should be my ideas :-)
 
@HostileFork It's an experiment. You cannot say if it's going to fail or succeed upfront. But you bring up an interesting point for that challenge. If an answer has negative votes, what code samples are they allowed to provide then? And if someone comes and downvotes and existing answer, are they required to remove their examples?
 
@mydoghasworms Well obviously I did not actually downvote you. You're welcome to try your theory, I'm just giving you my thought.
 
@HostileFork Ahem! Aren't you the person that told me the other day not to use Rebol 2? That does not feel very unified to me :-(
 
@mydoghasworms Well, the thing about Rebol 2 that I think many people found to be something that wasn't really a negotiable deal in the modern age... is the black box closed source nature.
Some have bemoaned that Carl open sourced Rebol 3, as an advancement in his thinking with unicode and apparently some ways in which it is factored, but not Rebol 2.
I would imagine they share a lot of code, in general. You can probably line up Rebol2 and Rebol3 code pretty well.
 
 
1 hour later…
9:58 AM
@mydoghasworms ic. yes multiple answer for each language are allowed. So go ahead.
Have added Rebol 3 note to my entry (remember its Community Wiki, so anyone can amend it).
 
@draegtun OK thanks, I did not know that you could have multiple answers per language.
 
Haven't checked again but I recall it being mentioned.
BTW... +1
1
A: Showcase your language one vote at a time [experimental challenge]

mydoghaswormsRebol 2 Note: There is already an answer for Rebol, but it is specific to Rebol 3, which has some significant differences. I wanted to highlight some of the features that are unique to Rebol 2 as these deserve a mention. Factoid: Rebol stands for "Relative Expression Based Object Language". It ...

 
10:54 AM
@draegtun Ta. ;-)
I have updated the Wikipedia article on Homoiconicity to add an example with Rebol. I think Rebol demonstrates it more neatly than Lisp.
Perhaps the example could be improved, but it demonstrates the concept: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoiconicity#Homoiconicity_in_Rebol
2
 
11:34 AM
I just realized, after editing the Wikipedia entry that my assumption about function parameters is incorrect. I guess I could leave that part out altogether as it is not material for the example and explanation. Perhaps someone could QA what I wrote there and improve it?
 
 
2 hours later…
1:45 PM
@Morwenn I took this example and tried switching it to BlockLoadable, but the trivial thing I tried did not work: github.com/hostilefork/rencpp/blob/develop/examples/parse-2.cpp
Maybe you know the magic incantation :-)
I do think that is an example where everyone can sit back and ask "hmmm... is it crossing a line"
 
 
2 hours later…
3:28 PM
So question for the audience, as I am considering it right now.
What should watch loop 100000 [wait 1 print "Hello"] do?
I assume we can all agree that "hanging the UI" is a bad answer.
I was thinking I'd put buttons on the watches
So you could cancel them, and then some kind of way of saying "evaluating this watch"
Like a style or progress bar of some kind
The other thought was, that if the watch had output, there'd be an indicator and you'd click it and it would show you what it output, but if the watch had no output there'd be no indicator
Any other thoughts?
Just ergonomically speaking. Like how often should it clear the output capture from the watch, etc.?
I should also note that for the above to work to the point of demonstrating the failure I meant to ask about, the expression would have to be in parentheses. watch (loop 100000 [wait 1 print "Hello"]) ... but don't do it, it will hang the console, which is why I'm asking about correct behavior.
Correcting the mistake starts with agreeing on what it should do.
(It has to be in parentheses because watch quotes its argument, but if you put that in a function you could achieve a similar result)
@kealist Never heard of Chip-8. Is this mostly an educational exercise, vs. practical?
It's interesting to see you doing that, because, I have tried to make Rebol assembly languages e.g. for Intellivision
 
3:51 PM
@HostileFork Well, I like low level programming, but unfortunately didn't pick up most of that in the courses I took. More educational. I had tried to do it in Rebol, but I have been unable to track down a bug in my implementation. Either something related converting between 1-based indexing and 0-based or ambiguity in the specs of some of the opcode (or me misinterpreting them). I figured it was a good chance to learn C++ as well as try to figure out where I went wrong before
 
@kealist Modern C++ is fun, as I say, feel free to talk about it. :-)
It doesn't have to be all Rebol all the time.
 
4:47 PM
Yep, The essay grading has begun, so I am slowed down somewhat
 
 
2 hours later…
6:46 PM
@HostileFork You mean that you tried to swith Loadable to BlockLoadable the signature in runtime?
 
@Morwenn Yep :-)
 
Will have a look...
By BlockLoadable<Block> I presume?
 
Yep
 
it is fun playing around with ren garden but it crashes on me a good bit
 
@JacobGood1 It's a breadth-first demo, and based on a lot of speculation
 
6:50 PM
If I remember well, runtime is an instance of RebolRuntime deriving from Runtime and the example actually calls operator(), right?
(I mean, as of right now, it cant be RedRuntime)
 
I am sort of asking for help, in writing it, like "can I get people interested enough that I'm not working alone"... and I appreciate the help so far.
@Morwenn Yep :-)
 
As long as I don't remove the Block in the call, it works fine. Time to remove them and see whether I need to cry.
 
@HostileFork Seriously, do you have a music for every punchline?
Ok, I see why it doesn't work. I don't have a clean fix to propose though.
Actually, std::initializer_list may be the only type (with void perhaps? not even sure) which can't be deducted by template deduction.
Unless there is a clearn overload of operator() with std::initializer_list, I doubt that we can get that to work.
 
@Morwenn Well, I only ask that which is possible. If it's not possible, make a block at the top level, and call it a day ;-)
I'd like to know why it's not possible if it's not possible.
 
6:59 PM
It's kind of hard to explain. But {} has no type, so when given to a function, the compiler tries to find an overload with std::initializer_list.
But since {} has no type by itself, you can't deduce it with template <typename T>.
The overall problem is that braces are really context-dependent in C++11 and can mean many different things depending on where they are encountered in the program.
 
@Morwenn Well, I'm open to imaginative workarounds, as you notice with ContextWrapper :-)
(Feel free to chime in on better ideas for that, also)
 
Loadable by itself is already some kind of workaround.
But I have a hard time imagining a context where we could deduce std::initializer_lists in the middle of other arguments.
Unless operator() itself can take an std::initializer_list<Loadable> parameter but then you'd have to add an additional pair of braces in the call.
 
Well, there is probably some workaround where you call the runtime via constructor, like one-off a Runtime {...} and bypass the ()
Just to play the devil's advocate, of, "if Block {...} can do it, you might be able to rethink things so that Runtime {...} could do it."
 
Of course, Runtime could do it. But operator() mandates a pair of () and an additional std::initializer_list mandates an additional pair of {}.
@HostileFork Ok, that was a bit special. I guess that I will be back to house music with clavicords.
 
@Morwenn or whatever...
 
7:14 PM
 
@Morwenn Well, question was just if that demo could lose the Block {}. Remembering that I thought this was a debatable feature in the first place... but I thought I might try it... it just didn't work out of the box
 
Seems kind of hard to achieve if not impossible without compromises.
Anyway, I have to go (dinner time), talk to you later.
 
@Morwenn No worries, just wondering :-) TTYL
 
 
2 hours later…
9:25 PM
I wonder, if it is a good idea to add a standalone C backend to Red to make it possible to compile Red programs to some unsupported processor architectures and at the same time benefit from good optimizations provided by the C compiler. By "standalone" I mean to compile Red source code and Red runtime to a single C source file that depends only on the target operating system apis.
 
@HostileFork After having thought about it a little bit more, we can probably use the Runtime { /* ... */ }; syntax as you proposed.
But if we're supposed to have only one running instance of Runtime at a time (didn't check what the code was doing), there will probably be some responsibility to check unless you want to use a monostate pattern.
> The runtime class is a singleton
Ok, so we can probably turn it into a monostate or use static methods or whatever is good so that we can call the constructor over and over again while always acting on a single instance.
Then have a constructor like Runtime(std::initializer_list<BlockLoadable<Block>> loadables) and we're done.
 
9:48 PM
Why can't I write to red-lang google group? I see no "new post" button...
 
@HostileFork Well, without contesting that LLVM IR as a backend would be a nice thing to have, you know that basic Gdb debugging Red/System actually works fine?
$ rebol2 -qws red.r --debug system/tests/hello.reds

-=== Red Compiler 0.5.0 ===-

Compiling .../system/tests/hello.reds ...

Compiling to native code...
...compilation time : 234 ms
...linking time     : 20 ms
...output file size : 19552 bytes
...output file      : .../hello
$ gdb ./hello
GNU gdb (GDB) 7.8.2
...
Reading symbols from ./hello...done.
(gdb) break <TAB><TAB>
%_                               posix-startup-ctx/init
***-on-quit                      prin
***-uncaught-exception           prin-byte
***_start                        prin-float
__print-debug-line               prin-float32
_print                           prin-hex
banner                           prin-hex-chars
draw-hline                       prin-int
draw-vline                       print
dump-hex                         print-line
So that's where you (could) get your debug from ...
@user2102508 Need to be logged in with a Google account and also member of the group.
@user2102508 You sure could do a C backend for Red/System, which is in turn used by Red proper. Should be an interesting and very much doable exercise.
 
Thanks! I've joined the group and now I can create new topics in it.
 
 
2 hours later…
11:48 PM
posted on January 28, 2015 by droid...

I know that the basic idea of Red is to be independent on other toolchains and compilers, but bare with me here. I think that it is a good idea for Red to have a working C backend to be able to compile to some processor architectures that is not currently supported. Even for supported targets I beli

 
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